ALS,

You said something I thought I would address before Q lowers your IQ significantly with that 2X4.

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know OM and never met him, so I can't really say, he could be in it for the long haul or tiring of it. I'm not sure. If my W is still with him 5 months later he must have something that attracts her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ever paint yourself into a corner you cannot get out of? I think that is where the OM fits. She has had an affair. She is not sure she can come back, I mean she has all of this guilt, she only justified this by making you a "monster" , and really OM is NOT THAT BAD A GUY. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

She has a problem here ALS. She cheated after only a year of marriage. Assuming you hadn't turned into Jack the Ripper, that is hardly enough time to really really mess things up. But, she has her own issues including depression, so she does something really dumb like: have an affair.

So what to do? She isn't convinced you love her enough to forgive her. She knows she looks like the worst kind of fool. She has really cheated herself more than you because all that she claimed to admire and value she just violated. So what to do?

I know, I will run. I will hang on to OM for safety. I will get a divorce as fast as I can. I will hope that no one learns what a low life I am. And I will be out of this.

Problem is she won't be out of this. She will still be depressed. She will still be an adulteress, and she still has to face what she did to you.

So if you 'Just sign" the papers, you give her the out she wishes. However, if you "love" her, I think you need to offer her a chance to get her self-respect back whether or not the marriage makes it. How do you do that? You hang in there. You do your best to be pleasant and you listen to her. She isn't going to make this easy because to do so would be to admit, that SHE acted badly, not just you.

ALS, usually I would simply say and I may have said this to you: no children, new marriage, affair, LEAVE and consider yourself lucky. It still might be the best advice, but given your talk, I think you might want to continue to talk awhile. If she senses that you could forgive her, and that you do love her, and you are hanging on to the marriage for those reasons she just might see a way out of the corner.

As you well know, you can pull the plug on this marriage anytime YOU want to. You don't need to wait for her. You are in control here, but the trick is to NOT be controlling. God I hate that word. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> So you set the time table, but I think following what Q has said might offer some new insights to you both. You will certainly learn even more about yourself. Not a bad thing to do.

Hope I said something of interest to you.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ March 18, 2003, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

Q,

I actually asked her if she couldn't just get her name changed officially to her maiden name when she said "I just want my name back" and she said she checked and couldn't. I don't know the law but I'm pretty sure you can change your name to anything you want, whenever you want.

I think I missed the point there anyway, she really doesn't mean she wants her name back, what she really is saying to me there is that she wants a divorce. The name is just part of it. But it's easier for her to look me in the eye and say that than it is to look me in the eye and say "I want a divorce" I guess. Maybe if she never calls it a divorce she can convince herself she was never married or something. hehe

"But still, I guess it's just a guilt thing, sorta like someone who cheated on their spouse doesn't want to admit they cheated or had an A, they also don't want to say they asked for a divorce?"

I think so. She'd like to hang on to as much of what's left of her integrity as she can. Again, just be supportive of her. Show her you're there to help her if and when she'll let you. Let her figure out that you're the one that it makes the most sense to open up to... ...as soon as she's ready to.

Sounds like a great plan. Hopefully she will continue to feel comfortable opening up to me. I'm not reaching out to her at all this week, I have stopped contacting her via email and everything. Not sure that's a good idea, some opinions say I should go from regular Plan A contact right into a Plan B letter but I have not gotten that together yet nor made up my mind on how to handle it.

Thanks for your continued great advice, Q.

--

JL,

Wow, it's great to hear from you again. Your posts are always full of such incredibly well thought, wise information, I really appreciate you taking the time.

She has a problem here ALS. She cheated after only a year of marriage. Assuming you hadn't turned into Jack the Ripper, that is hardly enough time to really really mess things up. But, she has her own issues including depression, so she does something really dumb like: have an affair.

The comments you are making about W's current state of mind regarding her guilt, her affair after only a year of marriage, and being stuck in a corner are very much the thoughts I have had of her as well. Of course, only she knows how she truly feels, I can only speculate or listen to what she tells me, but she is in a tough spot right now as far as coming home.

I think she's afraid that what has happened will always be held against her. Maybe even that she's not worthy of a relationship with me. I'm not sure. She spent a lot of our conversation last week pointing out all of my faults and mistakes in the marriage, and very little time talking about her mistakes and the affair. I'd say it was probably 80% me, 20% her last week. But that's okay, I was there to listen, not to judge her or place more guilt on her for what happened. Plus, the things she said about the mistakes I made were completely right.

So what to do? She isn't convinced you love her enough to forgive her. She knows she looks like the worst kind of fool. She has really cheated herself more than you because all that she claimed to admire and value she just violated. So what to do?

I know, I will run. I will hang on to OM for safety. I will get a divorce as fast as I can. I will hope that no one learns what a low life I am. And I will be out of this.

If I heard her correctly, and I believe I did, her basic plan is to eventually get away from all of this (run) so it will go away. Right now, I am nearby, she is still married, she is still with OM. If she can leave this town, leave me and the marriage, probably even leave OM, she is rationalizing that eventually all of her mistakes will be wiped clean and she can start over with herself. I think we all know that this is going to haunt her for the rest of her life. So you're right, just like she told me, she wants to run. Divorce is another step in her running away from her problems.

I just wish I had a way to show her that I loved her enough to forgive her.

So if you 'Just sign" the papers, you give her the out she wishes. However, if you "love" her, I think you need to offer her a chance to get her self-respect back whether or not the marriage makes it. How do you do that? You hang in there. You do your best to be pleasant and you listen to her. She isn't going to make this easy because to do so would be to admit, that SHE acted badly, not just you.

As I've been doing, I have no intention of bringing up Dv or signing papers at all the next time we talk. I am just hoping she doesn't show up on the doorstep with them in hand this week sometime. I am being very patient right now, maybe patient as ever, and hoping she might want to have some more conversations like we did last week. Whether they be by phone, in person, anything. I am ready and willing to listen with an open mind and a warm heart.

ALS, usually I would simply say and I may have said this to you: no children, new marriage, affair, LEAVE and consider yourself lucky. It still might be the best advice, but given your talk, I think you might want to continue to talk awhile. If she senses that you could forgive her, and that you do love her, and you are hanging on to the marriage for those reasons she just might see a way out of the corner.

You've summarized very well where I am mentally right now. Some days I tell myself hey, I am lucky to have found this out early, if this was where our marriage was headed, better to know now and get out than to go through this later on down the round with more complications. However I still love her, when I see her I still long to hold her, and I still enjoy her company more than anyone. It would be a lot easier if I didn't. It would be easier if I resented her so much that I wanted her out of my life. But I can't deny those feelings either. So I'm trying my best to be loving to her without being so loving that it scares her away even more.

As you well know, you can pull the plug on this marriage anytime YOU want to. You don't need to wait for her. You are in control here, but the trick is to NOT be controlling. God I hate that word. So you set the time table, but I think following what Q has said might offer some new insights to you both. You will certainly learn even more about yourself. Not a bad thing to do.

Yes, I do feel that I could basically get a divorce on the fast track at any point. But since it's not what I want, I still feel it's important that, if it can't be avoided, she know she took the steps and made the initiative to make it happen. Not me. I just want her to know that it's not what I wanted for us. Maybe the fact that she could have this A so soon, and continue to see OM even though it hurt me, yet still receive love and forgiveness from me, has her thinking that I'm a pretty good guy.

Again, thank you to EVERYONE who takes the time to post to me. You are all amazing wonderful people. You give of your time for nothing in return, and you are the reason that I have made it this far without cracking up! So thank you all.

ALS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ALostSoul:
If she can leave this town, leave me and the marriage, probably even leave OM, she is rationalizing that eventually all of her mistakes will be wiped clean and she can start over with herself. I think we all know that this is going to haunt her for the rest of her life. So you're right, just like she told me, she wants to run. Divorce is another step in her running away from her problems.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It takes a coward to avoid your problems. But it takes someone with courage to pack up his/her life -- regardless of it's depth -- and move it somewhere else. I don't think she's got it. Chances are she's not going anywhere soon. Which means she's gotta deal with this stuff at some point. Your talk the other night was much larger than she realizes and I'm not sure you've grasped it's full magnitude, either.

It takes a coward to avoid your problems. But it takes someone with courage to pack up his/her life -- regardless of it's depth -- and move it somewhere else. I don't think she's got it. Chances are she's not going anywhere soon. Which means she's gotta deal with this stuff at some point.

I agree. I just can't help but wonder if her way with dealing with it is looking for some sort of absolution from me or something. My agreeing to a friendly divorce or to be her friend afterwards seem like things that she is looking to get in order to feel better about what she did. I'm not really looking for either. If Dv is in the cards, it will happen with her fully knowing that it's not what I wanted.

I think she must have had a little bit of courage though, I mean after D-Day she packed up what little she had, moved out, got her own place, and has been supporting herself ever since financially. Though I did urge her to leave the house so she didn't have a lot of choice there, it was just too hard living with someone who had no respect for me and who spent almost every night with OM even once I knew about it.

Your talk the other night was much larger than she realizes and I'm not sure you've grasped it's full magnitude, either.

Care to elaborate on that statement, a bit? Please? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

ALS

ALS,

Wow! Lots of reading on this thread. I went through most of it and have come to the concusion that you should listen to Qfwfq. Don't give her the divorce. Why would you? In the hopes that she would come back afterwards? No in my opinion I would make her work for it. Would she resent you? Who knows. Maybe, just maybe she wants you not to give it to her. Ever think of that. She runs from everything. Well if she wants to run then let her work up the sweat. All you are doing is getting ready to lace up her sneakers for her.

Sounds like you damned if you do and damned if you don't. So don't. Let this thing play out a while longer. Well until you are totally fed up anyway. Which I still think is far away.

She sounds like she is still very much attached to you even through this fog. If you were to give her a seperation, which is where you basically are now, then tell her it is a trial run. And in this trial run you have the right to see other people if you want. You don't have to but tell her that anyway. That is part of the deal. I don't know this could backfire big time but maybe she needs to see this from another perspective. She knows you are still doing everything you can to save your marriage. Actually strike that. If she comes over for another talk then see what happens. Don't bring up the divorce or the "name change" (please...) Maybe she does want to discuss life with you some more. If she doesn't and asks for the divorce then just say thanks for stopping over and I'll think about it. Then right the Plan B letter and be done with her until she either finds the means to file for divorce or she comes back to try and work on the marriage. What does she have to lose in trying. This is rediculous. She IS eating her cake big time here.

I guess what I am trying to say is that you are, if you want to be, far from divorce. She is so confused. She has this instinct to run and run somemore. Don't let her. If you make her fight for the divorce she may run from that and right back into your arms. Get her into MC as a precursor to divorce if you have to.

Well I'm rambling big time here. I just read this stuff and get very frustrated myself. Bottom line is stay the course and let her come to you to have another talk. She asked for one right? OK see what happens. But don't bring up the divorce. Let her do that and commit to nothing and see what happens. The go to Plan B. Let her wallow in that for a while and see what happens.

Good luck.

ALS,

In many ways the words & messages from your WW mirror exactly what I have been hearing. For example, my WW also thought (thinks?) that there will be a magic way that we would be instantaneously and painlessly divorced, and live happily merrily after, and be friends with each other. I think your wife is stuck in a place where going back to you doesn&#8217;t sound appealing, as it makes her confront her own behaviour and taking responsibility. So, moving out seems like the easier option. Of course, all your nice signals to her made her furious and she had to ignore them - because they were relaying the truth, as opposed to wishful thinking and betrayal. It also made her to engage emotionally with you, something which is painful for her and doesn&#8217;t fit her "Weltanschauung" at the moment. I think of it as your WW has built a universe where everything makes sense - like OM ("shoulder to cry on"), you ("did X, Y and Z, bad boy") and her ("was depressed, did something to feel better") or along the lines like that. In your wife's rosy world even the word or the concept of "divorce" does not exist - she calls it differently, again a mechanism of not emotionally engaging.
What your wife needs to realise is a good dose of TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR HER ACTIONS. The financial stuff is only one area (she did that - successfully but it wasn&#8217;t easy). She has to take emotional responsibility. That yes, she caused hurt. That yes, by divorcing she will continue to cause hurt - to herself and you. And going forward, she will continue to cause hurt to OM, herself if they were to split up as she says. It looks like she feels herself 'victimised' and doesn&#8217;t see herself as an independent actor. Somehow you need to tell her that the A was *her* choice, that it was *wrong* and that you feel anger, betrayed and hurt. Especially the last bit, I would clearly tell her repeatedly so she realises that her actions have actually an effect. Equally, you should tell her that there are other actions (eg, no contact) which will have quite a great effect - to the positive.

Good luck
N

Hey Mark! Great to hear from you again. You're right, this thread's got a lot going on in it, thanks to so many great people willing to give me their opinions. It's definitely one of the tougher spots I've been in since all of this started.

I guess the only thought on giving her the divorce, and I realize this is a long shot, is that in those 3 months that it takes to become official, she may change her mind. I realize that the chances are this are so slim, believe me, but at this stage I don't feel they're much better than her leaving OM (and maybe even the job she loves more than anything, as OM works there and something would have to give). I have been patient, as patient as I can, but have seen little progress in these past 5 months since D-Day. At least as far as our relationship goes.

Our talk last week was progress. Towards something, anyway. I'm not sure if it is going to save the M but we had one of the best talks we've EVER had, definitely the best one since D-Day. A lot of things were said that needed to be said. Feelings were expressed. It was good for both of us, I feel. If it was totally horrible, I figure she would not want to talk more, she'd just want to have those papers signed and filed.

Sounds like you damned if you do and damned if you don't. So don't. Let this thing play out a while longer. Well until you are totally fed up anyway. Which I still think is far away.

Well my only thought on giving her the Dv is it's the final barrier between us that is causing her tension. She would no longer have any reason to feel I am trying to keep her from her happiness. She tells me what she wants to be happy, if I don't want to stand in her way, why should I (at least, that's from her perspective). So right now, to each other, we're both being selfish. She's looking out for her best interests and I'm also looking out for mine. Of course, I feel my best interests should be hers as well, and that I could enrich her life and help her (and us) heal, but she isn't going to see it that way right now.

If she comes over for another talk then see what happens. Don't bring up the divorce or the "name change" (please...) Maybe she does want to discuss life with you some more. If she doesn't and asks for the divorce then just say thanks for stopping over and I'll think about it.

I hope she comes back or calls, that would be great. It would be nice to talk even more now that I've had some more time to reflect. The last talk just sort of came out of the blue. I have no intention on bringing up Dv unless she brings it up again. And then I'll fend it off as best I can.

Strange as this may sound, though, it wasn't until I told her I would sign if that's what she wanted that she really started to open up and let all her feelings out. Until then, her guard was up. Once she saw I wasn't fighting, her guard went down. Maybe that's what it takes, oddly enough, in this case. She had no reason to feel tension from me anymore. She could see I was resolved to the fact that I would let her have what she wanted, even though I disagreed.

I guess what I am trying to say is that you are, if you want to be, far from divorce. She is so confused. She has this instinct to run and run somemore. Don't let her. If you make her fight for the divorce she may run from that and right back into your arms. Get her into MC as a precursor to divorce if you have to.

No arguments here. She has expressed regret about the past 4 years of her life and wishes she could go back and do it again. Says she has a big problem not being able to let go of the past, and keeps replaying it in her mind, wondering what might have changed if she would have made different choices. What's important isn't what has happened, but what we've learned from it and how we can apply it to ourselves now.

So thanks Mark, for sharing my frustrations. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You were there a while back so you know how it feels. I really have been giving this my all, and I know that a lot of you who follow my posts here were sad to see that I was considering giving her the Dv. It's a strange turn, for sure, but when I did that, something did change. I'm still not sure if it was for the better or not, but I felt good after we talked last week. I hope to have more chances to do so in the future.

ALS

ALS:

"Well my only thought on giving her the Dv is it's the final barrier between us that is causing her tension. She would no longer have any reason to feel I am trying to keep her from her happiness."

No. Your unwillingness to give her a DV is NOT the barrier that's causing her tension. The barrier is entirely in her own head. She doesn't want to face the responsibility she had in this, and wants to believe that by getting out that everything will be all peachy from then on. Nonsense.

My heart pumps peanut butter for her, ALS. Also, I do not agree that by DVing and moving away, that she'd be "courageous" at all. More cowardice. Too many people believe that they can hang onto multiple, exclusive life-changing options, whether it be partners, jobs, places to live. When the fact is that making a choice and grieving the alternatives not chosen can be a very powerful, rewarding growth experience. This is why I don't think that agreeing to a DV will be doing her any favors. You can't make her choose between you and the OM (or moving back home), either. She has to do this and find out for herself how rewarding it can be for herself.

-QFwfq

Nick,

Thanks for writing. Sorry to hear you're hearing similar things from your W, as I know how tough it is!

At this stage I feel she knows she is wrong regardless of what she does, but she is LESS wrong if she never comes home (if that makes any sense). I got this from our conversation last week. Basically she considered herself single the day her address changed and she moved out. The marriage meant nothing to her as far as the law was concerned. To her, she moved out, she was single, she could do as she pleased. However, if she COMES HOME, I think that blows her logic out of the water. In that regard then, I feel she'll consider that the marriage never was over, and feel even MORE guilt for her actions.

Yeah, I think Plan A-ing her did make it harder for her. I think it would be easier for her if I hated her and didn't want to speak with her. Kindness did not make it easy for her to want to see me as I don't think she felt deserving of it. Also, she saw it as me not giving up and that's what she wants. If I give up, it's easier.

I think she is right now in a place where she is trying to rationalize her actions. She wants to know that she can have a good future. Much of her talk last week was about her future plans, what she wants to do with her life. I think she saw our marriage as a dead end. I'm not sure if she still feels that way, but I can understand why it looked that way when she had the A. Our lives were getting routine, for sure. There was a lot more to M than either of us were enjoying. And we weren't communicating that to each other. So what she would need to realize to come back I think, would be that we don't have to have the old marriage, we can have a new, better one, fueled by our new understanding of relationships and of each other. But without her taking that into consideration, to her, marriage is still not what she wants. I think she is enjoying being single, and having the open possibilities ahead of her. I chalk a lot of that up to her age (23 right now) and that she just wasn't ready to settle down when she did.

I spent a lot of time last week when we talked using the word "hurt". I let her know it HURT me when she was sneaking around having the A, and it continued to HURT for me to think of them together. She validated all these feelings and told me she could understand that I was hurt. And again she said she was sorry.

I try to delicately tell her that there are so many success stories, that we could make it if we both just tried, but I have not yet gotten into specifics. NC, that sort of stuff. Right now she works with OM and told me yet again last week that her job is her favorite thing in the world right now. It's her #1. So that is a tough obstacle for us. If she came home, she would need to leave that job or convince OM to leave. Either way it could not work with her still working with him. I wouldn't be able to take it, I don't think I'd even be willing to try.

So, we'll see how it goes I guess. It's been a quiet week so far.

ALS

<small>[ March 18, 2003, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: ALostSoul ]</small>

OK, ALS,

In true male problem solving fashion, why don't we consider "offering her a deal she cannot refuse." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I offer for your consideration the following scenario. Let's say you called her up and said I have been thinking alot about our talk. I have come to realize that you are in a terrible situation, a corner if you will. I would like to offer you an out, it won't be easy but in the end you will get what you want and I may get what I want.

What I think you want is out of the terrible moral dilemma. You are depressed, you weren't happy with me (yes I messed up), you had an affair (which I feel is the cause of your dilemma), and you would really like to make it all go away and start over someplace else to avoid what has happened.

I, on the other hand, am deeply hurt by what you have done, but I would like two things: one a chance to show you I can be the H you want, and a chance at seeing if we could make a great marriage.

So my offer is the following. If you will give up the OM and move home and go to counseling with me, I would like to try and make this marriage work. I will do my best to work through the A, and heal. We would do this for 6-9 months, tops a year. If at the end of say a year, you still don't have any love for me and we have not changed how we act around one another and in our marriage, I will offer you a divorce. But this divorce won't be because you had an affair, it will be because WE both have agreed that we shouldn't be married.

At that point you won't have the moral issues of the affair ending the marriage, and we both will know we gave it our best shot. I have learned alot in a short time, I know you can as well. IF it ends up changing our marriage for the best, then great. If it is not enough, you are out of your corner and you won't need to run from anything. Please consider this, and let me know what you think.

Now I know you W isn't quite ready for this, but something along this line may actually help her see several things. She is having an affair and it is hurting HER. THat you admit your mistakes but would like a chance to do it right (giving her a chance to be generous, although this is really her doing), and that you love her enough to wipe the slate clean even if there is a divorce.

So ALS what do you think? I am sure it would need some tuning, and I am sure Q and others will have suggestions as to the strategy.

Isn't problem solving fun, even if it is theoretical? Hold your tongue Q, I know what you are going to say about theories. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hang in there ALS there just might be away.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

Well it certainly is a pretty gutsy move, and I kinda like the idea of it, but there's one major factor that you left out...

Her job.

Her job is her favorite thing in the world right now. She loves it. She loves the position and the company she works for. She doesn't make a lot of money there so it's not a financial need but she loves it. And she's not going to quit that job for me right now. She's not going to quit it for OM either, though. She loves it more than the both of us, at least that's what she tells me.

Maybe I'm being a jerk, I dunno, but I'm bascailly unwilling to try recovery while she is working with OM. I don't see her leaving her job (at least not feeling the way she currently does) and I certainly don't see her telling OM he has to leave HIS job so she can go back to her H.

So that's something I think would need to be addressed in any sort of plan. I just don't know what to propose. She loves the job and unfortunately it's the extra factor on top of the OM that's complicating this entire situation.

I think your idea is really great, though. Any RATIONAL person would certainly see that as an acceptable approach to all of this. In fact, I think as a BS, that's all any of us want, is for our spouses to come back an give it a try for x amount of months. An honest try. And I think the idea of forgiveness after she gives it a try is also a good one. After all, that's what we're asking for. Recovery is not a 100% guarantee for success. But it's a better chance that we have not doing anything at all or just giving up on it. That's not going to give her any peace of mind, that's for sure.

Hmmm...

ALS

ALS, that was an excellent post that JL wrotte , and I would seriously consider you giving it to your WW in a letter so that she would have time alone to read and digest its contents. If she is smart, she will not only acknowledge the wisdom contained in it, but actually consider going thru with it. Give it some very serious thought.

ALS,

If you notice I didn't say anything about no contact either. Why? Because the idea is to get her thinking about HER future, not OM's, not your's but her's. Then if the idea interests her, a discussion about what would be easiest for HER should follow.

Let's see <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , it might be easier to NOT see OM, it might be easier to change jobs, it might be easier to not talk to OM, or communicate with him. Why? because it relieves her of conflict, it relieves her of guilt, of having to hurt you. In short, it makes her life easier while this decision process is on going.

ALS, marriages have recovered while working with OM/OW. It is much harder and makes these things take longer but it does happen. Harley points out that it adds an element of risk.

I also think that her ranking of importance just as ranking of needs is predicated on her current situation. You and OM are not making her happy, so the JOB gets the title of #1 FOR NOW. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

So, think about this. I like Coffeeman's suggest to write it down for her to think about and consider.

ALS I think the mind set you need to have here is one of helping her. And I mean this. You need to go into this that the only good thing that will come out of it is that her guilt will be relieved, and that you have let her out of the corner. Now this also gives YOU another chance to do somethings differently, but expectations are a bad thing. The goal is to get her out of the corner and off into the rest of her life.

By the way, the job cannot be that important if she wants a divorce and then leave the area for a new start. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ALostSoul:
Care to elaborate on that statement, a bit? Please?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope. It would spoil all the learning. You're a smart guy and people far more experienced at life than the both of us are giving you some awesome feedback.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by whippit:
It takes a coward to avoid your problems. But it takes someone with courage to pack up his/her life -- regardless of it's depth -- and move it somewhere else.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wanted to clarify this. Packing up one's life and starting over somewhere else can still be a cowardly act, as life's problems will certainly follow. But to do so, even if it is to escape, requires an effort to change something to make it happen. Perhaps courage wasn't the right word, but it's what came out at the time. I was merely trying to say that I didn't believe your wife even possesses the ability yet to even flee your city.

I am definitely in agreement that JL's words, if put into letter form and sent via a letter or email, would be most effective. I do think they'd need a little tweaking, but I do generally agree with the idea they convey. The idea that I care about her happiness and her future, and just am searching for ways that she can be happy with herself, no matter what the final outcome of this is. If she'd at least give us a chance, that would be be satisfactory to me for certain.

Of course, every time I ask her why she didn't give us a chance, she claims she did, she just gave up trying giving us chances and then had the A. She told me I should have known something was wrong and fixed it, that I shouldn't have had to hear her say "I am going to leave you if you don't get better at meeting my needs." She claims I shouldn't have needed that threat. I agree, but at least if she'd been that blunt about it, I'd have understood the severity. So in her eyes, she gave me every chance, in my eyes, though, I didn't have a chance at all. She just left me for OM.

Here's another quandry about JL's message as well -- What if things are still good with OM? Sure, maybe not great, the A has been going on for 5 months now, it's had to have lost some of its luster and must be becoming a bit routine.

But what if W is truly in love (or feeling in love) with OM still? What if W isn't ready to leave him? I think a letter such as JL's would be VERY effective for a spouse who's tiring of the OM, or looking for a way out of that relationship, especially for a spouse no longer seeing the OM. But in her case, the relationship she has with OM may still be strong. Sure, when we talk she downplays it, but she is not going to tell me how much she loves him or sees a future with him. She knows that would be too hurtful.

JL - I do agree with you that it's key that I show her I am thinking of her and her future. And that I want to help her. Most definitely. And I do understand that in some rare cases, marriages have been saved with OM still in the picture. However, this guy is young (my age), single, and readily available for her if things ever go bad here at home. Recovery is tough, there will be bumps if we get there, no way could I risk her seeing OM every day during this period. It will be hard enough with him still even living close by. Working together, just seems impossible. Unless of course OM LB's so bad that she can't stand him anymore. That's what I have sort of been banking on lately, that OM will screw up and show that he is not the perfect guy he appears to be to her, and it will make her reconsider.

Oh, and by the way, she did mention that when she moves away she wants to keep her job and just transfer. That she would not go if it meant losing her job. So she holds that job very dear right now.

Whippit - I don't think W has the ability to leave this area yet either. She loves her job and leaving here would mean losing that. She has feelings for OM and leaving here would lose her that and her new friends. Leaving here would also lose me. So she'll lose everything in moving away. I know she is using a lot of these things, if not all, to get by right now. My W is currently not capable of sustaining happiness on her own. She is dependant and reliant on others for this. Her job and these people (friends and OM) and even me are what are keeping her sane, keeping her going right now. Her crutches if you will.

So I think you are right, she cannot leave because she is in no state to do so. She will lose everything she holds dear right now if she moves away. She already sees her life is in a state of turmoil, to move away would only increase that turmoil.

ALS

ALS,

I need to explain further. This message, letter, whatever it's form is be viewed as a seed. Thoughts you plant in her head to germenate. She won't read the "letter" and go "of course why didn't I see that?" It will sit there, and every time OM LB's or her conscience raises its ugly head, your offer will be there.

She is young, and she is confused, and she really has no clue what she is doing but is running from you and marrige, probably responsibility. So your offer sits on the table, and the significance of it may just grow until she wants to talk about it (see why no details? Less to argue about. )

Then maybe she will see that she does want out, but she doesn't want to run, well this is a way out and it can be done with some sense of honor on her part.

So think about this as a seed, a generous offer that you leave on the table for her so that when the time is right SHE may decide to consider it.

As for the lack of mindreading on your part, shame on you for not reading her mind. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Of course if you can read her mind and you did then you would be considered controling if you acted on your knowledge. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Can't win those arguements ALS, never works.

Hang in there.

JL

JL:

That was just 2tempting!!!

"Theory: A crutch to support a lame idea." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

But I don't really believe that. Just like the sound of it. And it's useful to quote to pompous colleagues! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-2fwf2

ALS:

I gotta run, so this is going to be short (thank God!):

Remind me about her job. Do they know about the A? Or do they believe you're an @$$hole or something and you've agreed to a DV, or are DV'd already, and the R with OM is sanctioned by her coworkers/employer?

Don't do anything yet, though. I'm just curious.

-ol' Qfwfq

Q,

I don't have any facts regarding if they know about her A at the job or not. I'm certain that some of her co-workers know, and suspect that the word has gotten out about her at least leaving me (as I'm sure the photo of me is off her desk and everyone noticed her not wearing the rings).

What I don't know is how many of her co-workers know that she is seeimg OM, the co-worker. Office grapevines are nasty though, so I assume pretty many.

Also, and this is the BIG if, it can be anything, what did she tell her co-workers, friends, and OM about me? Did she make up lies to justify her actions? Or did she tell the truth, that was was just unhappy and decided to have an affair? I'm fairly certain that some untruths were told to keep her in a better light with all of them. The full truth just doesn't put her in a very attractive light.

I don't believe her place of work will scold her for having a relationship with OM after divorced, I'm not sure how they feel now, but anyone who knows, I'm sure W is telling them she is getting a Dv, that or that I kicked her out and WANT a Dv. I don't think she would tell anyone that I am trying to save the marriage. I am fairly certain all her friends, co-workers, and OM are all told that I am finished with her and no longer want the M. So she is lying to them all. This may or may not be true, but it's what I assume, and my instincts about her have been pretty much dead on since all of this started.

I'll reply to the other stuff in a minute or tomorrow morning. Just depends on how much steam I've got left tonight! Thanks everyone. I will get back to each and every reply.

ALS