JL -

Oh I guess you are the only other reply I gotta get to here. I was keeping up better than I thought. Thanks again for making this thread so active and for all of your input, hopefully other BS's in my situation might find some of this stuff useful as well. I know there's a lotta lurkers out there that read my posts. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Planting a seed is a really good idea. I tried this back in December with a Plan A letter, actually. Wrote her a very heartfelt letter that basically apologized for my mistakes in the marriage, said I am learning, and would do what it takes to save the marriage, and asked her to give us another try. I printed it and hand delivered it to her place of work with a rose. This became known as the famous "stalker letter". My W not only hated the fact I brought it to her work (it made her cry and get scared, and also OM probably saw the rose since he works with her), and she feared for her life. She took it as I was stalking her, and even (I found this out last week) went so far as to tell her coworkers and friends this home address and told them to look for her here if she disappeared, because she thought I was going to kidnap her. I'm not kidding here. The letter really was very heartfelt, but I guess she could make it out to fit whatever she needed me to be at that time. To justify things. She still to this day doesn't see the good in it. She said it was the final straw and scared her of me and convinced her she didn't want to come home (I sent it a couple weeks after she moved out).

Anyway, I digress. I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that I see your point about planting a seed. I hoped the Plan A letter would do the same. Obviously not. So it would definitely need to be carefully written. I'm just worried that, after I have all but agreed to sign papers if she put them in front of me, sending it now might seem like another act of desperation, another case of me chasing her. But then again, I don't see a problem saying that stuff to her if the M is over anyway. It couldn't hurt to let her know one last time how much I still care.

Anyway, we'll see what happens next. Honestly, I'm not sure what to do right now. Since she first asked me to sign Dv papers back in December and I refused, they have not been brought up again until last week. I ignored it and so did she. I thought she was waiting for me to just finally give up and say I would sign them. Now that I basically did just that, and she's not jumping at the chance to drop them off, I'm confused again. Maybe she is too. I'm just not sure what's going through her head right now. I guess I'm hoping that she's finally giving this all some serious thought. I don't want to let this stay on the fence forever, I know at some point it's Plan B or similar, but I feel like things changed somehow last week. I guess, for the first time, I've got evidence that she's not sure, either.

Still thinking about a lot of stuff,

ALS

"I printed it and hand delivered it to her place of work with a rose. This became known as the famous "stalker letter". My W not only hated the fact I brought it to her work (it made her cry and get scared, and also OM probably saw the rose since he works with her), and she feared for her life. She took it as I was stalking her, and even (I found this out last week) went so far as to tell her coworkers and friends this home address and told them to look for her here if she disappeared, because she thought I was going to kidnap her. "

You realize these claims of fear were likely a bunch of BS right? IMO she was partially honest when she indicated that she "hated" getting it, but fearing for her life? Kidnapping? Give me a break!! If she was speaking honestly with you, she would've told you that these signs of affection via the letter and flower didn't mesh well at all with her story to co-workers and OM of a horrible marriage headed for D. I heard the same thing after I had flowers delivered to my XW's place of employment, only she didn't mention anything about fear. She was very angry and made it clear that she didn't consider it appropriate. ALS, IMO you're wise to understand the difficulty of her working situation. In my case, I had friends that she worked with that knew everything so if you can I'd say let the truth out there to her co-workers. Good luck, you're still in the ball game!

Litch,

Yeah, that thought did cross my mind. The letter and the flower may have contradicted the picture that she painted of me with her friends and co-workers. And I'm pretty sure that OM didn't get to see the letter. At least maybe only part of it. Because the letter was very loving and expressed a lot of my good feelings about her, about us, and my desire to work on the marriage.

I think just the timing of it, as well as the fact I dropped it off with the front desk for her at work, just came at the wrong time for where she was mentally. At that point she and I hadn't talked in a couple weeks, she'd just left the house, and we were not on good terms. So my good intentions got twisted around in her mind to whatever she was feeling towards me at the time.

But in short, you're right. I have no clue what story her friends and co-workers and OM have heard about our marriage, and what caused her to have an A and the Dv. She tells me that she laments to them that she feels that she is a horrible person and feels guilt, so I think at least OM and some of her friends know that she feels guilty for what she did -- Maybe not so much for leaving me but in the manner of which it happened. I still don't think ANYONE got the full story of exactly how everything happened, and the angry emails I sent to OM (as well as me basically forcing my W out of the house after D-Day) could definitely help paint me in a bad light. I am fairly certain that no one, especially OM, is aware of how hard I have been working to try and save our marriage. I'm pretty sure she's told everyone that it's over and she is never coming back.

Unfortunately, I don't know ANY of her co-workers, friends, or OM, she met them all recently after she moved in with me, and always kept that life separate. So there's no real way I can talk to any of them to let them know the "truth", at least not without her thinking I am trying to interfere or sabotage her life.

ALS

<small>[ March 19, 2003, 08:54 AM: Message edited by: ALostSoul ]</small>

Think I'm finally getting the loving detachment thing down better than ever. I'm doing really well since my talk with W last week at doing my own thing, giving her time and space, and basically just detaching myself from the situation for a while.

She must be thinking about things, I mean even if it's just a little bit. I can't help but imagine that if she was completely sure that divorce was what she wanted, she'd have been by with some paperwork by now. Of course, again, that's not to say it still couldn't happen any day or any time, but I'm hopeful she's at least giving it all some thought now.

Anyway, at least I'm feeling really good this week (for some weird reason). And I'm thankful for that.

ALS

ALS:

I'm glad you are feeling good this week....I know exactly what you mean, about how it's weird that you can actually feel that way. I am amazed that I can keep going like I do....but I think part of it is I try to keep positive, read on sites like this, and just know that I'm doing all that I can and if it's meant to be it will be. I guess giving it up to the lord maybe, but it certainly makes my heart lighter.

You wrote something that really struck me:

***But what if W is truly in love (or feeling in love) with OM still? What if W isn't ready to leave him? I think a letter such as JL's would be VERY effective for a spouse who's tiring of the OM, or looking for a way out of that relationship, especially for a spouse no longer seeing the OM. But in her case, the relationship she has with OM may still be strong. Sure, when we talk she downplays it, but she is not going to tell me how much she loves him or sees a future with him. She knows that would be too hurtful.***

I sometimes wonder if maybe I'm the one in the fog, if I'm the one refusing to believe that my H could really love someone else and that it's not just infatuation or that "romantic" love stage. What if it is real? My H also doesn't talk about OW...I think to spare my feelings as well.

I do think my H does love her, and does believe that he wants a life with her. However if I look at the statistics for one, and the foundation of what they have....a relationship built on lies, deceit, secrecy, etc. I know that it is unlikely for them to be together. The question for me is how long am I willing to wait...and I think that is what you need to ask yourself as well. I counseled with Steve H a couple weeks ago and he advised me to be in a guarded plan A. I don't know that I have it in me to do a plan B...although H isn't living with me anymore.

Steve said the reason for plan B is if I am getting close to the bottom of the bucket...where I just don't care anymore and I'm not close to that yet.

I think you need to ask yourself that same thing...how close are you to the bottom, and then decide what is best.

Hi HMB,

Thanks for checking out the thread! Nice to hear from you again.

I think what I'm wondering the most is if I will EVER be ready for Plan B. I don't feel I'm at the end of my rope at all as far as this goes. But then again, I hear that a lot of times, the spouse doing Plan A doesn't know when to go to Plan B, and they don't do it soon enough. So right now, I think I'm in Plan X. I'm not sure what I'm gonna do next. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Of course, yes, I do have worries that the realtionship with OM is more than she makes it out to be. She isn't going to tell me if it is. I mean, I suppose she could but right now she feels she has hurt me enough. I can tell she doesn't want to do it anymore. It's thoughtful of her but all the same, and I tell her this every time, no matter how much it hurts to hear, I appreciate her honesty and openness above all things.

You're right, statistics show that eventually these relationships will fail. They started out under the wrong circumstances and they are a reminder of the guilt our spouses carry from their mistakes of the past. They even remind our spouses of US. So for those reasons and others, yes, these relationships eventually fizzle out. Will they end soon enough for us, that's the question for sure.

As for now, still feeling okay, ready for whatever I'm dealt next, but positive, happy, and patient.

ALS

OMG, that was MY W you were talking to!!!! I tell you now that is almost EXACTLY what my W said to me while we were seperated. I'm not trying to give you premature hope or anything, just pointing out the similarities in WS behavior. Anyway, I've only read your first post on this thread, I'll get to the rest next. Just wanted you to know we was checking on you, sorry I haven't done so sooner, life stuff ya know? BTW-what did Cerri say about this? I would like to know.

MTD

MTD - Hey, you're under no obligation to read all my drivel. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Thanks for keeping up. I'm sure you got an earful (well, I guess, an EYEful anyway) on this thread. There's a lot going on.

I'm in a way relieved to hear that you heard similar things from your W, given the fact you were able to reconcile. Not that it necessarily means that my W will want the same thing, but it's nice to see that it's possible. Care to shed a little more light on that, as far as when during your separation (near the start or end) you heard that stuff, how you worked through it, and what some of the similarities were?

Cerri was recommending I go to an immediate Plan B after that conversation/visit last week, but I have sort of been dragging my feet and waiting to see how it plays out (staying dark and in NC with W at the moment).

Please, do elaborate if you get the chance. I'd love to hear more.

ALS

Okay, time to take inventory and see where I'm at today.

Tomorrow will be 5 months since D-Day. Today also marks one week since I started this thread, one week since my W and I had a 3 hour relationship discussion, and one week since I basically told her I'd sign her Dv papers once she brought them by.

So it's been a week, and...Huh. Still no divorce papers. No word from her about even getting together to sign them. Of course, I didn't contact her either, I wanted to try going dark for a while and see what happened. I think I made it known well enough last week that I didn't want a divorce, but that I understand she wants one to be happy and I think that meant a lot to her that I understood it.

And the more I think about it, I think for the first time I saw her actually having second thoughts, and some indecision. I wasn't sure, of course, but I did assume that by now, if she was sure, she'd have made an effort to get those papers signed.

Of course, that still doesn't mean it won't happen...But I just get the feeling that I'm not quite out of this yet. And I'm feeling pretty okay these days.

ALS

ALS-

Your wife is me all over again. Can I ask you if she has sought any help for the depression?

I was a runner too. Guess what? She will only stop when she's really tired of running. It sounds to me as if she is close.

Best advice at this moment is to do NOTHING. Keep away from her and let her come to you. I'm not sure if you are familiar with the 180 concept, but if not I think you might want to start familiarizing yourself with them. From what I've read, I think she needs to have that taste of what life s like without you. I think she needs to see the "threat" of what life will truly be like. A successful 180 will be the perfect catalyst for her.....

ALS - I wish very strongly that your wife read my story...the whole thing. I would be so willing to share it with her because I feel it might help her if she knows that she isn;t the only one out there. That was the hardset thing for me. Once I sought help, I was amazed that there were SO many people that felt the same things that I did......

Maybe the next time that SHE opens the dialogue you can tell her that there are others that have walked in her shoes.....you can let her know that they would be willing to talk and listen to her if she is open to taking a chance.

There are so many comments I want to make about your story. Clearly what comes to my mind is that your wife is STILL very ANGRY and you are the target. Once the 180 starts - if you choose to go that route - and she has that epiphany that I always reference, the anger will diminish and she will see you differently.

I REALLY BELIEVE YOUR MARRIAGE CAN BE SAVED!

You just need to trust in the methods and be committed to doing this.

My email is **edit**. If you or you W wants to contact me offboard, I would be more than happy to offer my insights and my story. It so paralells yours.

ALS-

One more thing. About the name change - She is fighting for an identity.....Perhaps you could suggest to her that she can legally change her name back to her maiden name without the divorce. She could even hyphenate it if she likes......

My point is, she is looking for things but doesn't realy have a clue what it is she needs. Let her know that you are willing to be her friend and want to stand by her while she figures it out.

You remind me of my X in so many ways......It really is strange to see those similarities.

Kily,

Thanks SO much for viewing my thread and responding. It's an honor. I did think you might see some similarities and hoped you might be able to offer some different perspective for me, and it seems you're doing just that, so THANK YOU!

Regarding my W's depression - This is a tough one. When we were together, a few times she was very depressed and I couldn't understand why. Instead of trying to help, or when I realized that my help wasn't working, I did suggest her seeing someone or that she might possibly need meds for it. She got VERY upset at that (and still tells me that to this day) and told me that she doesn't need meds, that she is just being herself and she needs to work through those problems on her own. She is in a tough spot now, she knows she is depressed about some things but refuses to get any sort of help with it. She wants to work it out on her own, or looks to others (OM mostly, right now) to help her through it. They are all temporary solutions I feel, for a larger problem. One she needs to work out for herself.

I'm glad you say your best advice is to do NOTHING, the 180 approach, as that's what I have been doing for a week now. Since the talk that started this thread, I have been in absolute zero contact with her. She has done the same with me. I am hopeful this may at least allow her more time to think, but also feel that our contact has been so limited in these past 5 months since she moved out, that she has already sort of gotten a taste of life without me. But perhaps absolute NC for a while will change that.

I hope she can have the epiphany that you discuss in your story, I really do! Do you have a link to your full story anywhere by the way, I know I read it a while back but I'd love to read it again.

Thank you for the offer for myself or W to contact you. I don't think she is close to the point yet where she wants to hear about others who have worked it out or talk to you, but I hope I may be able to suggest it at some point. Right now I think she may misconstrue it as me trying to teach her, or to manipulate her into coming home. I know that's not what you mean by talking to her at all, but thank you. If I can get to a comfortable point to bring it up, I may mention to her that I have been talking with someone who was in her same situation and that you have been most helpful. If she seems curious, perhaps she'll be open to sending you an email. I do agree with you that if she would just seek a little bit of help rather than ignore or run from some of these issues, things could get SO much better for her. And then our M would have a real chance.

On the maiden name thing -- I did ask her that actually right away after she told me "I want my name back". I asked her if she couldn't just change it back legally to her maiden name. She claimed she tried that and it wasn't allowed or something. Now I don't know the law, but I believe it's very simple to do that. I don't think she even tried.

I think her saying "I want my name back" is just an easier way of saying "I want a divorce". It's kind of just a gentler way of saying it, sort of like a PC-way to say "divorce". So in other words, she really isn't telling me she wants her maiden name back, she's telling me she wants a divorce.

I do agree with you that she is confused right now. She just wants to be happy but she is starting to think of the future and it's tough for her. I don't think she knows what she wants, and I also feel she is confused regarding the future.

Oh, and if I remind you of your X, maybe you can tell me if I'm doing anything stupid then, too. For example, when she pushed last week, do you feel that my agreeing to sign the Dv papers for her (since she asked and that's what she said she wants to be happy) was wrong? I just felt that, at that time, fighting her on it was just going to push her away. And my agreeing did seem to break down that last wall.

Again kily, thank you, hope you'll stop by again!

ALS

ALS,

I usually hang out in the Recovery boards, so only saw your thread today. Wow, so much wisdom in you, to be so young. I don't see how you maintain your perspective but you are doing an AWESOME job dealing with everything that life is throwing your way.

Regarding the name change, you think it's your W's euphemism for wanting a Dv. I disagree, and here's why:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If she can leave this town, leave me and the marriage, probably even leave OM, she is rationalizing that eventually all of her mistakes will be wiped clean and she can start over with herself.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She's looking for herself. She knows she doesn't like herself the way she is. She doesn't like the face in the mirror, the immorality of what she's done, the corner she's put herself into. She wants to be the strong, healthy, whole, real her that she knows/hopes she can be. She, like all of us, wants to like and admire herself, to be proud of who she is.

"Getting back her name" is just another way of saying she wants to undo this mess and get away from it. It's not the answer, of course, it's just another way of running; but I don't think she can see that right now. Getting her name back won't change who she is or the decisions she's made any more than moving to a new town where no one knows her past will. The only way she'll become the person she wants to be is by dealing with this head on. I think she knows that, but wishes it were easier. Like you so aptly put it, she's looking for a way to wipe everything clean.

ALS-

Turtlehead has put it into words very well.

What I meant by 180 was to place the impression in your W's mind that you are now dating someone else. There is a great success story that someone posted here. I wish I could find it for you.

Basically you are out doing things when she wants to see you. You dress up as if you're going out on a date and are evasive with your plans. Somewhat playing hard to get. Watch how fast she starts moving your way.......

Here is a link to my links... it took me a while to find this. I think I'm going to add this to my signature line so people can quickly access it.

I'm really flattered that you feel what I have to say is beneficial. I only want to help save marriages as I have failed so badly in my own R. I KNOW in my heart yours can be saved.....

kily's story

Hi Turtle! Welcome to my nightmare. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Glad you found me and this thread.

Wow, so much wisdom in you, to be so young. I don't see how you maintain your perspective but you are doing an AWESOME job dealing with everything that life is throwing your way.

Wow, bless your soul! Thank you for saying that. I've really learned that I was sort of relationship-challenged in the past, and have grown a lot over these past months. I still think I have more to learn, but I am appreciative of your comments. I don't think I am doing anything overly special, I am just following my feelings and doing my best to save my marriage. I still love my W and I can't deny those feelings, even if I try.

She's looking for herself. She knows she doesn't like herself the way she is. She doesn't like the face in the mirror, the immorality of what she's done, the corner she's put herself into. She wants to be the strong, healthy, whole, real her that she knows/hopes she can be. She, like all of us, wants to like and admire herself, to be proud of who she is.

My goodness. I don't think I could have put it better myself. In fact, I'd have to say that from our conversation last week, that is EXACTLY the W that I was talking to, and one of the main themes of our conversation. I believe that is the exact stage she is at right now as far as her opinion of herself. Very very perceptive. I just wish I knew how I could help her with that. Perhaps just by totally backing off, I am.

"Getting back her name" is just another way of saying she wants to undo this mess and get away from it. It's not the answer, of course, it's just another way of running; but I don't think she can see that right now. Getting her name back won't change who she is or the decisions she's made any more than moving to a new town where no one knows her past will. The only way she'll become the person she wants to be is by dealing with this head on. I think she knows that, but wishes it were easier. Like you so aptly put it, she's looking for a way to wipe everything clean.

Again, you understand this completely. I think perhaps she is realizing that a divorce is not going to make the events of the past go away. It doesn't even matter where she runs to, it's not going to change anything. Perhaps her attempts to work this out amicably with me are her way of dealing with it "head on". I'm not sure how to find the balance between helping her deal with things but still letting her know that I am against a divorce. I guess I'll just take it as it comes, and do my best. I'd be more than satisfied if she was willing to give us a try, but I think right now she knows that she'd lose OM in the process and is probably afraid of having no one, if she came back to me and it didn't work out for her.

Thank you Turtle, for your incredibly insightful words.

ALS

Luki,

Aha, I see, THAT kind of 180. Yeah, I did try that for a while back right after D-Day. It didn't go over too well, she seemed pretty content to do her own thing without me constantly in contact with her. It was mostly email, but still contact. So yeah, I am trying the NC thing again.

By the way you know we are separated right? We very rarely see each other anyway so it's tough to play "hard to get" in that respect. But perhaps by stopping email and contact, and letting her initiate that, I can create some of those feelings in her. I have been making a lot of plans lately anyway.

Thank you kily, for your hope and your comments. I'm going to read through some of your threads in the hopes I might be able to learn something more about my W's feelings in the process.

ALS

Well here I am, on my 5 month D-Day anninversary.

If you'd have told me I'd still be sitting here trying to work on the M 5 months ago, I'd have thought you were crazy.

Anyway, I can definitely say that 5 months in, I am feeling stronger, smarter, and better than ever. I still wouldn't wish this experience on my worst enemy, but, if nothing else, I think I am a testament here to life being able to go on, even when things don't really go your way in this process.

It's been a bumpy, rocky, rough 5 months for me here, with very little contact between W and I since the separation. I've had the ups and downs, but consistantly, my W has always told me she does not want to come home to work on the M. There has never been any hope from her, yet I still find myself holiding my head high today, due to the help and insight I've gained, knowing that I just didn't turn my back on my M and gave this everyting that I've got.

Have I quit the fight? Not yet. Harley recommends a 6 month Plan A maximum, and I've done 5, though I'm not really sure what Plan I'm in at the moment (Plan X, I'm calling it). After the conversation 8 days ago between W and I that started this thread, I'd expected I might be working on Dv papers with her by now. I'm not. It's been 8 days since I've had any sort of communication with her, not a record, but getting close to one. I do feel that giving her complete time and space, doing my "180" as they say, is sort of my last resort right now.

We'll see what happens next. But I will say this. MB techniques work. Coming here, talking, reading, and learning have saved me over these past 5 months. Things changed for me when I found this place. Regardless of if my M is saved, I am going to be okay.

5 months and still strong,

ALS

ALS:

Another important point... ...each "anniversary" has less power over you than the previous one. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

-Qfwfq

A good point indeed. If you look back at all my monthly D-Day anniversary posts, you'll probably see a happier, healthier, more well-balanced person with each passing month.

By the time I hit my 1 year D-Day anniversary, I should probably be evolved into a higher being or something. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

ALS

It's hard to say, I got these things all through our seperation. Most strongly at the end of it though. I hear a lot of the "I need to find myself", and "I just don't know who I am". One advantage I had is that her R with OM#3 was almost dead already. So it will most likely be tougher for you, though I think it is good to hear she realizes it won't last with her OM. It is also very good to see she would obviously miss you in a D. I personally agree with Cerri. I would give her one GREAT Plan A moment, something she will really remember of you, then Plan B. But you know yourself best, so only you can really say when. I get a little foggy about the timeline for us (I try really hard not to think about it too much), but I will go through my personal journal and see where the "babble" got really bad. I always believed (she agrees now) she was just feeling sorry for herself in her situation. I will tell you one thing my W had a hard time dealing with is the guilt. Her guilty feelings really was a severe roadblock. She found it hard to believe someone would forgive her for all she had done. She thinks that was part of why she held on to OM, he was as guilty as she (he was married also) so he could not judge her. I'll get back to you on this thread later, just got caught up on the reading <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

MTD