Thanks Q, for sticking with me. I just read back on this thread to some old posts from you, JL, whippit, Kily, and others regarding Plan B. Some really fantastic advice there and it really does make a lot of sense. I think I just needed to find myself at the point where I feel it makes sense, and that it's the right thing to do. Today, I am now at that point.

I'm curious also to hear what you all think of the letter itself. It will just be sent via email to my W. Is it enough or too much? Is it forceful enough yet kind? I am trying hard to get the point across while at the same time showing love and care. I'm also wondering if I should make any statements regarding exchanging mail or other important items. She told that her health benefits are still coming to the house, so I guess she didn't change her mailing address through work yet, so she is waiting for some sort of packet to show up here that I will need to get to her somehow. I don't have her mailing address but I'll need to ask her for that, could be a good time to tell her she can mail me a few documents of mine that she has as well.

Q, you made some great points and I think you're dead on. While I don't believe she would have allowed the situation to continue this way forever (seeeing OM while still having the M), I do believe that she'd jump at the chance to have a happy divorce, be good friends with me as she continues to see OM. You are correct in assuming that I would love a friendship with my W, but not as she continues to date the guy she betrayed me with. That is just too much to ask, in my opinion. So it is time that the condition be given. If she wants this guy in her life, it is going to be at the expense of losing me. Sure, I'll miss her, but I'd miss my own pride and resolve a lot more if I allowed things to continue on like this. As of yesterday, it's basically been 6 months since D-Day, and PA ran pretty much that entire time, with a few bumbles, but now is the time to switch over, according to the Harley methods and according to my heart.

So thanks Q, and I hope to hear more from others, even though I haven't been around much lately, I do value your advice especially at such a crucial time in all of this. I hope I'm doing the right thing, I do feel that it's the next logical step, regardless of whether the M survives. I feel it's the next thing I need to do.

ALS

<small>[ April 22, 2003, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: ALostSoul ]</small>

ALS:

I'm not a very good plan B letter editor, so you should solicit reactions from others here. I do think the letter is too long, and the final version should be sent to both her AND the OM, and possibly to a trusted coworker of hers (in case their fantasy is currently protected from the light of day at work by her coworkers believing a lie).

-Qfwfq

ALS:

It's been awhile but I've been following your saga. Lots of great advice here and you are progressing nicely. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

As far as your letter is concerned I think it is good. While I don't think it's too long you get a little wordy at the end and you invoke the concept of "we" ie:

I feel that we never really tried when things got tough, and that if we did, things could be much better for us...

By doing this you're assuming you know what she feels, thinks, etc. While you may feel you never tried it's not fair to assume that she never did. Revisit your letter and take out any reference to we or us. Plan B is all about you. It's clear to me however you won't tolerate the A yet you're leaving the door open. That's nice.

Good Luck!

ALS-

Start a "new' thread with this so people will SEE it.

I am going to disagree with Q here. It is a personal issue between you and her. Sending it to anyone else is LB'ing.

She's a BIG girl. It's her choice now...

"....and the final version should be sent to both her AND the OM, and possibly to a trusted coworker of hers (in case their fantasy is currently protected from the light of day at work by her coworkers believing a lie)."

To me, the advice by Q to send the letter to the OM and someone else she works with is critical to your chances of R with her. That's why I'd questioned you earlier about others that you might be able to talk to. Sure, you might further alienate her but the potential gains outweigh the risks IMHO. It just sounds like there's a very good possibility they've been living a lie at work.

kily:

It's Harley himself, in SAA, who recommends sending a copy of the plan B letter, with a note at the bottom, to the OM.

I actually picked that book up last week, to refresh my memory on a couple of things that were bugging me about the "MB methods". I found some of my assumptions were wrong. But while I was looking, was when I came across the sample plan B letter and "instructions" of who to send it to.

-Qfwfq

Q-

I salute you old wise one....(sorry I didn't mean to imply that you were old)

Out of all the reading I have done on R's I have NEVER read Harley's. I guess I need to pick it up! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hey everyone!

Thanks for bringing the thread back to life. I may

The concept of sending the PB letter to OM is a really, really tough one for me. Right after the A was discovered, I emailed the OM and confronted him with it. Angrily, of course. I didn't handle it well. And my W used that as an excuse to point out to the OM that I was someone she wanted to get away from. And I promised her that I wouldn't write him anymore. She said I should leave him alone and get out of her life.

I've been doing VERY well lately with not LBing her. In fact, I asked and she agreed last time we talked that I have done nothing but good things as far as myself and my treatment of her over the past few months. I can assure you that sending the note to OM will be a HUGE LB. Kily is right on. I know Harley recommends otherwise, but in this situation, it's a huge LB'er. I think mostly because our marriage has been so short, and she is considering this an intrusion on her new life with her new boyfriend, she already considers me the "ex boyfriend" who just won't let go. I was accused of being a manipulative stalker before when I brought a letter and a rose to her at work (where OM also works) and I'm sure that sending the OM a copy of the PB letter will

Now, it may or may not put a strain on the relationship with her and OM. My guess is that it won't. It will just give her something else to complain to OM about, to claim I am a "psycho" who won't let go, or manipulative, whatever. There is really no family OM is busting up, no kids or anything else for him to feel guilt over. And after 6 months together, they are attached enough that they can weather an email message from me. Or, even if not, if what many of you assume might happen (including Harley), that the OM seeing the note will strain the A and end it, I feel my W will not come crawling back to me even if that were to happen. She would see it as a manipulative trick

No, I actually agree with Kily -- I think she needs to read this and decide for herself. I don't want it any other way. Oh, and there's no one else at work I even know. She kept that life very seperate. Never once did I meet a single one of her co-workers. They are all part of her world now, her only friends are those that work there. And I know the company grapevine is strong, and am 99% sure that word is around there now that she left me for the guy that works there. They all talk about each other a LOT there from what I recall. And I'm sure some support it and some don't, and I'm also sure that they believe whatever lies she may have told them about me to make me out to be a bad person.

I am currently revising this letter with Cerri's help, it's getting close to being ready to send.

So all of you, thanks for all your suggestions! Oh and Faith, thank you for the "we" concept is something I am working with now as well. That may or may not change though, as we did talk about not trying and she has admitted she never tried. But I'm glad you liked the rest. The first paragraph is undergoing heavy revision now due to it sounding too accusing and convoluted.

Thanks again! I'll post a revision here later.

ALS

ALS:

"It will just give her something else to complain to OM about, to claim I am a "psycho" who won't let go, or manipulative, whatever. There is really no family OM is busting up, no kids or anything else for him to feel guilt over."

Bull Feathers! You should definitely talk to Cerri about whether to include OM or not. But if you don't, I feel that what you've described reminds me of one of the scenarios described somewhere in HNHN (I believe), where the A simply "replaces" the M. If that's what has happened, and this is what you're going to "do" about it, you might as well call your W up and sign the DV papers now.

Sorry to sound so harsh, but you sound like you're still so worried about LBing and "ruining your plan A" at this late stage, that you might as well just quit. Your plan A will be OVER the second you give her a plan B letter anyway. The A is the bigger LB at this point.

Take care,
-Qfwfq

It's not harsh, Q, I appreciate it. It's how you feel.

I feel the A has ALREADY replaced the marriage. Nothing is going to change that. She left the marriage for the A and hasn't looked back. Sending OM a letter isn't going to change that.

And I do feel that sending OM the letter will send me out on a bad note rather than a good one. At least this will give her a last impression of me being a good guy who wants to work things out, not a guy who wants to work things out by sabotaging and manipulating the situation in any way he can to get what HE wants.

Just my thoughts on how it will look to W.

ALS

ALS-

My thoughts are similar to Q's in that you seem overly concerned with being nice, even if that includes getting D'd in the process. I've always looked at this whole disclosure issue as nothing more than being truthful. If people are under the impression that you're estranged for reasons other than the affair, is that the truth? Maybe, I guess it depends on your view...Regardless of what you do, we're pulling for you so hang tough!

Can I comment?

Plan A is not (repeat NOT) about making the WS happy, or feeling good.

Plan A is NOT, contrary to popular (and very incorrect opinion), about "making yourself a better person," or "working on yourself."

Plan A is ALL ABOUT the straying spouse. In Willard Harely's ever brilliant words, Plan A is a stategy to end the affair and to entice the straying spouse to reconsider the marriage.

So, it has several elements that should be done at the same time.

First is to eliminate LBers and to meet needs as best you can... recognizing that the unfaithful mate may not allow the betrayed partner to meet needs.

Second is to CONFRONT the unfaithful partner with what you know. Doing so (of course) in a way that is respectful and about you... how you feel, how you are affected by the affair.

Third is to expose the affair to the scrutiny of the world. The lover's spouse or s/o, coworkers, family, friends, church family, children, etc.

ALL OF THAT is Plan A. And it should be done as much as possible simultaneously. (If you don't believe me call the radio show Mondays and Thursdays at 1pm Central Time and ask Dr. Harley for yourself.)

Plan A must have a deadline. It's called Plan "A" because there is a second step... aptly named Plan "B." Willard Harley suggests a max of 6 months for men and 3 months for women before going to the next step. If Plan A hasn't worked in that time, it's not going to.

(I challenge you to find anyone who has done Plan A longer than that and been successful. I define successful as the A ending, n/c promised and verified, and the couple working a good recovery plan which includes meeting needs, eliminating LBers, getting in 15 hours a week of UAT, and most importantly following POJA.)

Now, Plan B IS all about you, the betrayed partner. It's about getting you out of and away from a situation that is horribly painful and, let's face it, degrading. Plan B is taking the stance that enough is enough and that although you want the marriage to succeed you will no longer be part of a triangle. And that you care enough about the marriage to know that you need to protect the love you still have for your partner.

Now, nowhere in any of that is the idea that the faithful partner needs to make life easy and comfy for the straying spouse!! No need to bend over backwards to be a doormat. Certainly no need to be afraid to trigger guilt!! Good god!! They should feel guilty!!!

So, do I think that a PBL should go to the affair partner? You bet I do!!! Do I think the world should be told that the spouse is being unfaithful? Yes!! And the sooner the better!!Can I insist that anyone does those things? Mmmmmm.... that would rather be a demand wouldn't it?

So you see, if one truly believes the Willard Harley ideals of respect and elimination of control, then one would have to uphold them to the best of their ability in all aspects of their life. I can't tell my clients or mentees that they must do things my way because I know best, and then turn around and tell then they must be respectful of and not be demanding of their partners!!! LOL Somehow, it doesn't wash...

What I can do is speak what I know to be true about how affairs are best ended. What has been shown over and over again to work. And I can explain why I believe those things to be true based on what I know about human behavior and how we react from my (hmmmmm how old am I???) 18 or 20 some years of experience, study, and educational forays.

After that, everyone gets to make their own decisions. I might not agree, and I usually say so, (don't I, ALS <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) but I fully support each individual's right to make choices about their lives.

So then, I don't know if that helps at all, but I feel better.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cerri:
First is to eliminate LBers and to meet needs as best you can... recognizing that the unfaithful mate may not allow the betrayed partner to meet needs.

Second is to CONFRONT the unfaithful partner with what you know. Doing so (of course) in a way that is respectful and about you... how you feel, how you are affected by the affair.

Third is to expose the affair to the scrutiny of the world. The lover's spouse or s/o, coworkers, family, friends, church family, children, etc.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Cerri ...

All of this I agree with but I have a hard time understanding how the first point isn't ALSO about
"working on you." How is it one can expect to negotiate the end of the affair if one has little or nothing with which to bargain? Eliminating LBs seems to be a drastic acceptance of responsibility ... which requires quite a lot of growth in most people. I would think, that for so many, that getting to the point of even recognizing one must eliminate LBs is dependent upon a large degree of fundamental change and a renewed self-awareness. Without it how is any of the rest possible?

whippit - You're right, you do have to take a good hard look at yourself and how the things you did that were either hurtful or neglectful contributed to the breakdown in the marriage.

What I see too often though is that the faithful partner blames him or herself for the affair (as opposed to taking responsibility for their part but recognizing that no matter what they did or didn't do, there is NO excuse for infidelity) and then they go down this path of thinking/acting as if they must become somehow perfect in their Plan A efforts.

What I also really wanted to point out is that although eliminating LBers and meeting needs is a good thing to do, Plan A is not just about making yourself attractive. It's much much more than that, because the goal of Plan A is not to make the cheating spouse feel good, it's to end the affair.

So if you begin with the position that Plan A is about making the straying partner happy at home, and that you do that by working on yourself, then you by necessity lose much of what should be done in Plan A. It becomes a flat and ineffective tool. (because part of the phenomena of infidelity is that the WS won't notice or will blow off the good changes the mate is making due to the addictive process)

But if you begin with the premise that Plan A is a strategy to END THE AFFAIR, then meeting needs and eliminating LBers (changing your habits,"working on you") becomes a small, albeit essential, part of the whole picture. A picture which includes doing some things which will make the unfaithful spouse very unhappy, angry even. Like confronting and exposing.

You have to remember that affairs are addictions, and they affect the mind in the same way other addictions do. When someone attempts to take away the source of the addiction.. be it alcohol, drugs, or an affair partner.... the addict is going to react with all kinds of anger and hateful words. You become in effect the enemy. They will say they hate you, that they'll NEVER want to be in any relationship with you again, that you are destroying their lives, etc. etc. etc......

So you have to keep in mind that it's the addiciton talking, and that it's most often a necessary step. Once the affair is ended and you naviagate through withdrawal and begin recovery the story changes. Drastically. (Rent the movie 28 days with Sandra Bullock)

I've been the WS. I've been the BS.. although in a different way than many. AND I've been around the addiction and recovery commumnity for many many years. The dynamics are identical.

Help at all??

C

Yes ... thank you. I understand all of that. I guess we're speaking of chickens and eggs. In my own journey through this, I very early (pre-D-Day) came to the realization that beginning with myself was a more practical approach and one that would lead me to success down the road regardless of whether my marriage survived. In essence I saw that I couldn't count on my wife to contribute anything to my marriage ... love, money, esteem and the list goes on. It's interesting, this period before D-Day, was when she was at her most hostile. Apparently I wasn't collapsing under the weight of it all like I think she thought I would and it put significant pressure on her.

Cerri -

This mught be a dumb question.

What I get from what you've stated is that this HATEFUL reaction is a sign that the PLAN-A is REACHING the WS?

So I'm supposed to understand that when he looks me dead in the eyes with all the hate he can muster and he says:
"I don't love you, I hate you, I NEVER want to be in a relationship with you again, you are ruining my R with her"

That this is what I WANT to happen. THat effectively whatever I was doing was WORKING?

<small>[ April 24, 2003, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kily:
<strong>Cerri -

This mught be a dumb question.

What I get from what you've stated is that this HATEFUL reaction is a sign that the PLAN-A is REACHING the WS?

So I'm supposed to understand that when he looks me dead in the eyes with all the hate he can muster and he says:
"I don't love you, I hate you, I NEVER want to be in a relationship with you again, you are ruining my R with her"

That this is what I WANT to happen. THat effectively whatever I was doing was WORKING?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well I wouldn't say that anyone WANTS that to happen!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Does it mean it's working? I dunno, what is he saying that in reaction to? Exposing? Confronting? If so, then it's certainly to be expected. And it most likely means that you're making the A uncomfortable, especially if he's saying that you are "ruining his R with her." Yeah, that would be "working." Not pleasant, not fun, but definitely the goal of Plan A, which is to end the A.

What else are you doing, what have you tried, and for how long?

As I said earlier, you have to think of it as an addiction. Almost no one wakes up one day and says "Gee, I'm addicted and it's hurting the people around me. And they've been so good to me, I think I'll quit." Heck no!! They fight and kick and scream, call names and say all manner of hateful things on their way to treatment. It's only when they are substance free and actively recovering that they begin to see that the "tough love" measures... confronting, exposing, separating, were done out of love and were in their best interests overall.

C

BTW, ALS, how are YOU doing??? LOL.... If Cerri won't do it, I will. Let it be know MTD is making a SD!!! Send the *@%$#% PBL to OM, make him feel uncomfortable. I am not just suggesting it, I DEMAND it!!! Ok, I'm done making a doofus out of myself now. ALS, do what you think you need to do, but consider this, how many times has Cerri been wrong yet?? You say that your situation is a little unique...kind of a line out of the WS book isn't it?

Just a little tough love, wouldn't do it if we didnt' care. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

MTD

I have to agree ... not from any first hand knowledge, but because OM also must hear from THE man. All he knows of you is what your wife tells him (that you're obsessed and unable to let go) and what he saw in your rage-fuelled, post D-Day email. Everyone knows that's not you.

Which leads me to the letter ... I think it's a good early draft. Remember to write a love letter that clearly states your boundaries. What you've published doesn't feel like it's coming from the love and I thought the boundaries part was a little wishy-washy ... not clear enough.

My two centavos. In any case, you gotta send it to OM. Think of it as tightening a noose around the affair. The letter to both is a means of applying equal and constant pressure ... approach one of their co-workers (or their HR department) and the noose gets even smaller.

<small>[ April 24, 2003, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: whippit ]</small>