</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by madly_truly_deeply:
<strong>BTW, ALS, how are YOU doing??? LOL.... If Cerri won't do it, I will. Let it be know MTD is making a SD!!! Send the *@%$#% PBL to OM, make him feel uncomfortable. I am not just suggesting it, I DEMAND it!!! Ok, I'm done making a doofus out of myself now. ALS, do what you think you need to do, but consider this, how many times has Cerri been wrong yet?? You say that your situation is a little unique...kind of a line out of the WS book isn't it?

Just a little tough love, wouldn't do it if we didnt' care. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

MTD</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi, MTD.... always good to see your smiling face!

C

My goodness, be careful what you wish for!!! I wanted posts on this thread and it went nuts! I am going to have to break up this reply or it's going to be a mile long.

Let me speak to the discussion on sending a copy of the PB letter to the OM first. First of all, I realize what the goal/point of that idea is. The basic idea is that OM realizes that I still want my W back, it causes strain on the A, the A ends and my W comes running back home.

First of all, I don't have a lot of faith in that working. Sure, it's possible, but I don't have a lot of faith in guerilla tactics working.

Now, that's not to say it wouldn't work. But even if it did, I don't want to get my W back that way. I don't feel like I'd even be comfortable with that. Why? Well, I don't know how I'd even feel about her coming back under those circumstances. At this point, I feel like if she can't end this A on her own, if I'm not worth that much to her, then I am just setting myself up for another fall. Or that if her love for me isn't strong enough that she can't leave this guy, after all we have talked about and all she knows, even after reading the PB letter, then our bond just isn't strong enough anyway.

Some of you may see this as a defeatist attitude, that I'm just trying to come up with reasons to not send the PB letter to OM. I'm not really, this is just how I feel about it. That's not the way I want to get my W back. If this A is to end, I want it to end because she realized, on her own, that she made a mistake and that she wanted to come back to our M. I don't feel like I should have to manipulate the situation with tactics like that to end the A and get her back. If it takes that much for me to interfere to get her to come home, that's telling me that my W

I can pretty much already guess what the replies are going to be, but go ahead and have at me if you like. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I realize that the first step is ending the A at all costs, and that is the only chance for recovery if it should happen. And I realized today that I don't want to end the A. I want HER to end the A. And she knows that. If I'm not worth ending the A over, then I feel I deserve someone better, that appreciates me more and values me for who I am.

MTD Said: You say that your situation is a little unique...kind of a line out of the WS book isn't it?

First MTD, thanks for asking about me, I'm doing fine, and thanks for you continued honesty. Don't ever stop being honest with me, I appreciate it.

I don't really feel the sitch is that unique as much as it is very complex. The most unique part of all this is that my W moved here from far away and has had ZERO friends before OM and her new circle. So we have not one common friend/thead here anymore. That's probably the biggest difference from the other scenarios I've read here. So we have no kids and no common ties at all anymore. And that also means that if she leaves OM, she basically loses him, and her circle of friends (as it's a big group including OM) and she also loses her job (unless OM quits first). So, my W doesn't just lose OM if she comes home, she loses everything in her life right now and gets me back. Of course I feel it's worth it, but to her it may be too much to consider. She loves her job for sure, and that alone may be enough to keep her away, because she knows she can't work with OM if I am to take her back. That's the biggest problem.

Whippit said: OM also must hear from THE man. All he knows of you is what your wife tells him (that you're obsessed and unable to let go) and what he saw in your rage-fuelled, post D-Day email. Everyone knows that's not you.

My emails to OM were like a sentence long each and not even THAT rage filled. But I KNOW for a fact that if I send him that PB letter, it will totally back up this statement you made: you're obsessed and unable to let go . If there ever was proof that my W needed to convince him of that, that PB letter being sent to him would be it. I can promise you I'd get a rage-filled email or phone call back "How dare you...Stay out of my life...Stop trying to ruin my life...etc etc..."

During my Plan A I have been very honest with my W, she knows I still care for her and love her, but she also knows I won't consider anything until the A ends. Yet it continues with her full knowledge of that. So it's really up to her, not up to the OM. And even if I sent that letter to OM and it ended, and she came home, I'd always worry that the A didn't die the "natural death" I wanted it to, and I'd worry that it could happen again, because my W didn't want the A to end, I forced it. For my peace of mind, I need her to end this on her own.

ALS

<small>[ April 25, 2003, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: ALostSoul ]</small>

I want to also say a few things about Cerri as well here, since she's been my sage throughout this entire ordeal, and just the best coach out there, bar none.

I know you guys get frustrated (as does Cerri) when I'm not following her advice because she is a professional and she does know the best way to save an M. And I agree with her tactics, her reasoning, and I'm never surprised at what she suggests. She knows what the best chances for success are and she also knows that a lot of that stuff goes against instinct. So I thank her for her patience in working with me, since I aways believe her methods, yet sometimes go about my own timeframe in making use of them.

Basically, for me it's all about timing. I think that's key in all of these decisions that we make to go to Plan A, Plan B, etc. It's not all about just DOING these things, but doing them when the time is right. A lot of this timing comes from past stories, that A's end in 6 months, or that a BS gets tired of trying and gives up, so PB becomes essential before that happens, etc. But I think a lot of the timing also should come from past interactions with my W, and the way I feel things have been going at the moment.

Back in December, Cerri helped me to write a Plan A letter to W that was a really great letter. It was loving, caring, spelled out all my thoughts and most here who saw it agreed that it was wonderful. Yet to this day, my W says that it's frightening, horrible, scary, stalkerish, and the only bad thing I have done to her since D-Day. She hates that letter even though everyone else felt it was beautiful. And I attribute a lot of that to timing and methods. I ended up dropping the letter off at work, with a rose, in the hopes OM would see it. He may have. And let me just tell you, that attempt at sabotaging her A enraged her and in our last conversation, she told me that day was the turning point, the day that convinced her she wanted out of the M. Before that she was just taking time to think, but my tactics that day convinced her she didn't want me anymore. She was frightened of me.

Had I done something differently, perhaps attempted to communicate and be a bit more friendly with her first (we hadn't talked in weeks before the letter), or sent it to her apartment, or even e-mailed it, it could have changed things. It wasn't the letter, so much as the timing and the methods.

So, that brings me to today.

I was totally ready to send this PB letter to W. I guess the reason I have fear of it working is that we are so CLOSE to being in Plan B already. I do not support her in any way. She is well into her new relationship. And, most of all, she is on her own, has been for 6 months, and we probably interact for all of 2 hours, on average, if that, per month. So PB is basically taking very little away. Not a big change for her. Not a sudden loss of financial help or contact with me, because it's hardly there. Plus, we have no family or other common links to tie us together. And only a year of marriage. So I do think it's an extreme PB situation for sure.

I definitely do want this to end, this indecision, and PB is certainly the start of an ending of SOME sort. And I woke up today ready to go there. And then something changed that is going to delay it again (I know, I know, here I go AGAIN)...But hear me out!

Now, well, I've been bad. Or at least I've taken a step different than I intended. I came home from work the other day and there was an email waiting from W. I swear she can tell when something is about to come, it seems! Anyway, she had written to let me know that she looked through a pile of documents she'd taken with her for something of mine and it wasn't there. It was a short mail but a nice one. So I decided to write back and thank her, and also told her a couple of things that I didn't get a chance to yesterday. I told her about the dentist appointment that she missed (they called) and also informed her why I had to cancel on meeting her last week - A friend of mine's husband passed away suddenly and I got a call, so I went to his funeral viewing service the night W had planned to stop by. I just wanted her to know it was something that was out of my control and that I felt I had to do. Here's where it gets a little complicated though: See, a few years ago, before W and I started dating, we talked as friends. At the time, this girl (friend) of mine was single, and we were friends, and I had a crush on her. I spoke with W a lot about this (a lesson learned, NEVER do that with another girl that you get involved with, though I hadn't planned on it at the time). Anyway so W never really got over the fact she had to hear about all that stuff, my attraction to another girl, etc. And she always resented that. I hadn't seen CB (this girl) since W moved in because W shunned it. Complicated huh? Just wanted to explain so you wouldn't be confused by the comment in W's email below.

Anyway, I also was about to send the mail then I thought back to the last time W and I had that long 3 hour talk. When she left, she seemed so, I don't know, confused, or maybe even hopeful, starting to come around...It was just a feeling I got. And she'd asked if we could talk some more sometime. That was the last thing she'd said. I agreed, and told her anytime, but she never took me up on it. But then I looked at this Plan B letter I was about to send, and I realized that in it, I was basically going to tell her I was still willing to talk but she wasn't. So I decided that I should give that one last try...I know, I know...Bad me. Trying to find a way to delay Plan B again. But I felt it was right. So I added this to the end of my message back to her:

[i["I remember you said that night that we talked that you might want to talk again sometime, but that was a while ago. Have you changed your mind about talking or do you still want to do that?" [/i]

I wasn't sure what to expect, but I figured if she didn't respond, I could at least then send the Plan B letter with the peace of mind that I had blatantly outstretched my hand one last time to talk, remembering that she'd asked about it previously. Well, wouldn't you know it, but not 15 minutes later I already had a response. And this is what it was:

"No I still want to get together and talk. I have just been really busy. Plus I have been sick and feeling crappy. I will go through them again and see if there is a social security card in there. We will still have to get together some time soon and talk. I'm just not feeling up to much right now.

I had to go to a funeral too. My uncle died early last week so his funeral was right before Easter.

CB that was the chick that you were in love with for ever correct?

Talk to you soon."

Anyway, it looks like I will get that talk after all. I'd actually hoped it might have happened last night, when she came by, but when she left so suddenly, I was Plan B ready. I still am prepared, of course, but now I guess I'll need to have this talk with her. I'm not sure how to make it happen or when it will happen, though, and I actually feel like our talks are better when they are more spontaneous, rather than a scheduled thing...And I'm also not sure if this "talk" is more just for her to hope to find a way to wear me down more easily into divorce or what. Our last talk, though, consisted of me basically trying to convince her why I didn't want a divorce and of all the possibilities for change. We also talked about our past a lot, both good and bad. More of that could do some good. I guess it's a tricky area, because I don't know what SHE is looking for the outcome to be herself. I know what I'd like, but I don't know what she would.

Anyway, I'm going to give her the chance to get together and talk, and have a set plan of action during it. Cerri of course isn't overly thrilled, it's more of the same behavior and I agree. But this will really only be the 3rd time in 6 months we've talked about our R. So I am going to plan, get as much said and answered as I can, and if, at the end of the conversation, the A is not ending, I am PBing immediately. I just wonder if Dv will not be the end result of the conversation anyway, but I am prepared for that as well.

So whew, that's everything now. Think I am pretty much caught up here.

ALS

ALS-Hang in there, you are getting alot of good advice, as am I. This thread has really helped me
to feel better about the PB letter I gave to WH last week. We have been in NC for 8 weeks, I gave him a PB letter last week, felt it was time as he seems to be still fence sitting. I broke down yesterday and called him. I was worried that the PB letter was a bad thing, silly me. I told him I was sad and missed him, talked a little about this and that, I was pretty sad sounding, then I say ILY at the end, he said so also. I hope I did not just ruin my good run, I just really needed to talk to him.

Thank you Laurie, and I'm glad that this thread is helping you. If there's one thing I do know, as hard as it is, if you start a PB, and NC, you should stick with it. So I hope you are able to go back into NC again and wait to see if it brings your H out of his fog.

Everyone who has and continues to give me advice in this thread is wonderful. I'm lucky enough to have a great bunch of supporters in this thread and at this forum, and I thank all of you for that. Your advice regarding Plan B has been very solid, and true, and I promise I'll make you all happy with my actions. It may just take me a little longer to get to where I need to be, but I will get there.

I'll report in as always if I have any news.

ALS

ALS,

Been watching your saga from afar. I honestly don't know how you do it. I read your last post and got the feeling that you wife seems to want to talk with you. Although she may just be saying that to prolong time until she actually has to talk with you. Get my drift? Just by her saying that she wants to talk may be enough for her to go another month without getting together with you. I can see that you are ready for Plan B and that you are confident in this decision. My only thought or worry would be that the conversation that you do have with your wife turns out to be your Plan B letter in a face to face conversation, thus not getting the full effect of the letter. There seems to be something said for one reading a letter of this magnitude instead of haveing a conversation about it. During a conversation emotions and some backpeddling can get in the way of the meaning of the letter.

Hey I hope I am wrong and that your wife really wants to talk to you about working on your relationship during this talk but I just don't see it from what you have written about it. My advice would be, and take it with a grain of salt because I'm not where you are, is that if you don't get this talk in the next two weeks then send the letter. By her reading the letter instead of the two of you talking about divorce or "plan B" she will get a much larger effect from reading a letter. Again just my opinion.

I feel for you and wish you the best.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ALostSoul:
But I KNOW for a fact that if I send him that PB letter, it will totally back up this statement you made: you're obsessed and unable to let go .</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How do you know for a fact? I ask for two reasons: 1. There's no way you can know what he would think and there's no way for you to know what your wife has told him. If HE hears from you that you love your wife and that you want to save your marriage, it may be something completely different than what he knows. It may not be ... but why would she be so honest with him if she's not with you or herself? 2. Asking that contact end between you and your wife doesn't exactly sound like someone who can't let go.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can promise you I'd get a rage-filled email or phone call back "How dare you...Stay out of my life...Stop trying to ruin my life...etc etc..."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course she will. They always do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So it's really up to her, not up to the OM. And even if I sent that letter to OM and it ended, and she came home, I'd always worry that the A didn't die the "natural death" I wanted it to, and I'd worry that it could happen again, because my W didn't want the A to end, I forced it. For my peace of mind, I need her to end this on her own.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you want to save your marriage, why does it matter how the A ends? Married or right? Pick one. And there is no way you can force the A to end. Plan B is your choice and purely a choice of self-preservation. How and why your W and OM react to that is their choice and what they choose is still a natural event.

Again, buddy, I'm not an expert. I just see someone who has worked such a hard Plan A with moderate success against a pretty tough nut to crack. Your options are running thin and I'd hate to see you prolong your situation.

Hang in there.

ALS-

I wanted to chime in here and let you know, atleast in my opinion, there's no need to apologize about what advice you choose to follow on these boards. After all, you know your W alot better than any of us!! IMO, it comes down to doing what's necessary for you to feel good about your actions should the M not work out.

Prior to my D, I went against all advice with regards to deciding a split in equity in the house and settled for what I thought was fair. Now I don't have much money, but I feel GOOD about the settlement. Keep following your heart, you'll be okay!

PS One note of caution: Don't have unrealistic expectations about this pending talk, she'll most likely try to maintain her perch atop the fence at the very best right?

Mark,

Hey, thanks for still watching! I always wonder how you are doing as well and check your threads. Your story and mine are similar in a lot of ways (aside from your W moving home) but the things we experienced are a lot alike, so it's not a surprise to me that I agree with your ideas so much (in fact, they were what I planned to use anyway, before I even read your post).

I decided that my W has definitely just basically been given an invitation to prolong and fence sit by me. See, in a way I like fence sitting because it at least told me that she wasn't SURE she wanted Dv, something I thought she was sure of since she moved out. Now I am convinced otherwise. However, I have also come to realize that, 6 months+ since the A started, that fence sitting is not cool with me anymore.

I also hope that this conversation does not turn into a live Plan B letter because I would like to send it. And I feel I will regardless of what comes out of the conversation unless it's totally positive, which I just don't expect. I mean, she has no reason to wait to talk to me for so long if she wants to come back, I think she delays it because she knows it will mark the end of the fence sitting. A decision will likely need to be made.

So yes, I decide to wait 2 weeks from this past Thursday to hear from her, then send the PB letter anyway. If we talk in the next 2 weeks, I will do my best to get information and show my positive changes, and hope for the best, but I see no reason why she would be stalling so much if she wants to reconcile.

So thanks Mark, you have verified that my thinking was correct. Today I'm not sure why I didn't just send the PB letter to begin with. I don't know what I can even get out of another R talk with my W, but I figure I will give it a try now that I might have the chance.

Whippit,

You're right, I don't know for a fact OM will think I am an obsessed pursuing psycho. It may or may not happen. The chances of my W being insanely angry with me will of course be close to 100% though. And sure, you are right, it's possible that the A would end, she'd break up with OM or he'd leave her, and she'd come back to me. But not a very strong chance of that. I think the better chance would be if the A just died naturally, without my having to sabotage it, and she came home. On her own decision, and without the anger over my contacting OM to cause it to end.

I will be in PB in 2 more weeks or I will be recovering my M. One or the other. I have no other options. Still not sure about sending OM that letter. Will think about what you all said and decide when the time comes, though. You're right Whippit, I've done the best PA I can do but she is just a tough nut to crack.

Licht,

You are right on about the talk. I don't really expect anything or know why I even gave her the chance to have the talk other than she asked if we could talk again sometime when we last got together. So I wanted to exercise that option.

Thanks for what you said about the advice here. It really is great advice I am getting, from some intelligent, worldly people who have been through this. Naturally, every situation is different, but this is the stuff that's worked most often. So it's the best odds, so to speak. I am doing my best to mix advice here and also think of my W and her personality and follow my own judgement too. A delicate mix, for sure, but I know that in the end I will be happy that I did the best I could for ME.

Thanks everyone, will keep you posted if there's any news.

ALS

Now, that's not to say it wouldn't work. But even if it did, I don't want to get my W back that way. I don't feel like I'd even be comfortable with that. Why? Well, I don't know how I'd even feel about her coming back under those circumstances. At this point, I feel like if she can't end this A on her own, if I'm not worth that much to her, then I am just setting myself up for another fall. Or that if her love for me isn't strong enough that she can't leave this guy, after all we have talked about and all she knows, even after reading the PB letter, then our bond just isn't strong enough anyway.

It's not about you. It's about being addicted.

And I realized today that I don't want to end the A. I want HER to end the A. And she knows that. If I'm not worth ending the A over, then I feel I deserve someone better, that appreciates me more and values me for who I am.


But she CAN'T do that. She isn't capable of doing so. It's not about you at all... it's about being sucked into something that she can't get away from even though it's very likely not making her happy.... in fact most probably quite the opposite.

Here's what I said above:

You have to remember that affairs are addictions, and they affect the mind in the same way other addictions do. When someone attempts to take away the source of the addiction.. be it alcohol, drugs, or an affair partner.... the addict is going to react with all kinds of anger and hateful words. You become in effect the enemy. They will say they hate you, that they'll NEVER want to be in any relationship with you again, that you are destroying their lives, etc. etc. etc......

So you have to keep in mind that it's the addiciton talking, and that it's most often a necessary step. Once the affair is ended and you naviagate through withdrawal and begin recovery the story changes. Drastically. (Rent the movie 28 days with Sandra Bullock)

~~~~~ And:

As I said earlier, you have to think of it as an addiction. Almost no one wakes up one day and says "Gee, I'm addicted and it's hurting the people around me. And they've been so good to me, I think I'll quit." Heck no!! They fight and kick and scream, call names and say all manner of hateful things on their way to treatment. (or when you do things to take away the source of the addiction) It's only when they are substance free and actively recovering that they begin to see that the "tough love" measures... confronting, exposing, separating, were done out of love and were in their best interests overall.
~~~~~

Really, it's not about you and making a choice between you and the other guy, as if she were deciding which pair of shoes to buy. It's an ADDICTION... which implies the inability to make rational choices that take anything into account other than the fix from the substance of choice... in this case a person.

If your wife were on crack or heroin would you say the same things or would you do everything you could to get her away from it?

Yes, it is that simple. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C

<small>[ April 27, 2003, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: cerri ]</small>

I'm gonna play devil's advocate for a moment as well, now, bear with me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Alright, let's assume that my W never took our M seriously or maybe never wanted it. We eloped and never had a wedding, it was a quick thing that didn't involve family. I loved her and she loved me (at least I think so) but truthfully, we likely would have waited longer if she were able to get a job (she couldn't, she was from out of the country and lived here with me almost a year, unable to work). Now I'm not saying I didn't want to marry her, I did, but perhaps the opposite was not true.

That being said, let's just pretend that W and I were seriously dating, or even living together, but NOT married. If she moved out of the house in that situation and started seeing someone else, wouldn't it be almost considered stalking if I refused to leave her alone and tried to ruin her new relationship? Is the only thing that makes this an "addiction" because she is married? If she was just living with me and then left me for another, is that an addiction too? I guess I'm saying that a piece of paper maybe can't define the line between a new relationsip and a destructive addiction.

I guess my point is this -- If my W seriously doesn't consider the marriage more than just a piece of paper, and it doesn't mean anything to her, then isn't sending a PB letter to OM in the attempt to ruin her new relationship unacceptable? Is the only thing that makes that allowable is because she signed the marriage license?

ALS

You bring up some good questions that I'd love to talk about. So make sure to bug me about this tomorrow. For tonight... I'm beat and as soon as I tuck in the two little ones, I'm heading off to bed with a book. A FUN one... not by Harley or any other R whiz, not a coaching book, not a Wicca book..... just something for FUN!!! LOL How decadent can one be?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

'Night!

C

My friend, what is unacceptable is a person, married or otherwise, not having the decency to properly address a relationship -- whether to end it or fix it -- before beginning a new one.

I hate to ask ... if you truly believe your wife considers your marriage to be of such little value or significance, why are you waiting to file?

You do make an excellent point there, whippit. It shouldn't matter whether it's a M or not, the plain fact is that she chose to start getting involved with OM before ending her R with me. And that itself is unacceptable, regardless of an M.

However, I discovered the A immediately when she started seeing him outside of work (it was obvious) so it wasn't going on for long before she proclaimed we were finished and our relationship was over. So I guess the question is, with her saying that (regardless of the papers that still have us "legally" married), her moving out, no longer getting ANY support from me or seeing me, and proclaiming her relationship with me is over and admitting she is with OM...At what point does this no longer become my business anymore?

I guess all I'm saying is, the fact we signed a piece of paper, in the eyes of many here, make her new R my business, but if we had just been a couple who were living together and she moved out/left me, etc, it's NONE of my business (and probably even legally actionable if I interfered). So, what it all comes down to is we have a signed marriage license, so that's the line that makes it okay and acceptable to try and end her new relationship, even though she's told me we are through? I can't help but think most advisors, if you told them this same story but WITHOUT saying you were married, would tell you to move along, your partner doesn't want you anymore and is with someone else, move on with your life and leave them alone.

And don't hate to ask why I am not filing myself. It's really that sort of thinking that led me to act the way I acted after I discovered the A. I mean, for her to be married for me for just one year, and to be capable of this, I didn't think she valued the M at all. I questioned her entire value system really, and still do. It was that sort of thinking that had me telling W that we were divorcing basically days after I found out, and forcing her to move out. I even went so far as to buy a divorce kit and start the paperwork myself in the first week. But in the back of my mind it didn't feel that it was what I wanted, I just wanted my W back, and when I found this place it started to make sense to me. I probably shouldn't want my W or my M back to have gone through this so early in my marriage, not only that, but to have tried so hard in these past months with little to no progress with the M...I should be well past the quitting point.

I'm just trying to ask myself daily why I'm still doing this and if it's something I even want anymore. I can still envision a future with my W and I together, so I know I'm not totally through, but I also question it more and more. I still don't want to have to file myself, but know that time will come if W continues to drag her feet. Right now, I feel it's more the fact that she just doesn't want that hanging over her head, the fact she divorced me, but that it IS what she wants to do. At first I thought it was just indecision over wanting me or OM, but more and more I just feel that she's too lazy and too ashamed to start the process. It would just be one more thing for her to feel guilty about.

ALS

ALS-

You're running around in circles here. Remember, I WASN'T Married.....Does that mean that I have NO rights to try and redeem my "R"? Does that mean that it was okay for me to leave and say "It's none of your business WHAT I do...just because we didn't sign that paper?

Flawed logic here.

I wanted to ask you if it was possible that she married you just to stay in the country? Painful question, I know, but I don't have enough info and the question popped into my head this morning while reading your post.

Kily,

Oh no, of course not, I guess what I was asking is does one person have the right to continue to interfere with the other person's life or relationship just because of the signed piece of paper saying they are married to that person? Even though the other person has stated continually that they are through and want the marriage to end? And if a marriage didn't exist, does that person have the same right? In other words, would I have the right to interfere with my W's new relationship and try to end it if we were just in a long term R, NOT a marriage? Does the simple fact that we signed a marriage license change the way that it's acceptable to handle her new R?

And the reason I never brought up the whole out of the country thing is because I am positive that was not the case at all. My W is from Canada and never wanted to move here, she wanted me to move there. Which I did not want to do. Right now it's either her job or OM keeping her here, or maybe both. She tells me it's her job but she wouldn't say it was OM even if it was. If she lost one or both I am fairly certain she would move back home with her parents. So no, I am positive that the marriage was never a scheme to get into the country, as she prefers hers over this one.

ALS

I know where you were going...I guess I was just trying to SHOW you that marital status has NOTHING to do with it.

It's about wanting to let someone know that they are loved, that you've learned, that you value them, you're capable of growing with them, that their opinions matter, and that you are committed to the promises that YOU made to them...regardless of a LEGAL document.

You are NOT harassing her. If you were doing that, she would call the cops and file a RO an you. You are gently trying to stand by her while SHE works through her issues.

Plan B is the wedge that will force her to figure it out...

And you know, honestly, today I am really wishing I'd have sent the PB letter last week.

Anyway, it's been almost a week since I emailed her and she said she wanted to talk again. I was going to give it 2 weeks, but I might only give it a few more days before I just up and send the PB letter. You've all seen basically what it looks like, but I'll just modify it a bit to let her know that I did want to talk some more, but the more I thought about it, as long as the A is still going on, there's really nothing left for me to talk about until that ends.

It may be a bit of sour grapes considering I just asked her if she wanted to have another talk, but you know what, if she REALLY did want to talk about getting back together, she wouldn't be dragging her feet on it. Sounds more like to me that she is just not looking forward to it or scared to end the M or whatever. So it really truly is PB time I feel. Because I really don't know what to say if we DO talk, and I certainly don't expect a breakthrough. Just more wheel spinning.

ALS

ALS:

I pulled back for a bit because I had my own issues to face for a while.

You answered your own question in your post above with this statement:

" If my W seriously doesn't consider the marriage more than just a piece of paper, and it doesn't mean anything to her"

That's the point. If it doesn't mean anything to her, why didn't she persue the DV a long time ago?

-Qfwfq

Hi Q,

Yeah, I saw your thread at the top there. I am in the middle of it right now actually. Hope it's working out, I'm sure you have it under control.

That is a good question, though again I am fairly certain (though you're right, not SURE) that if W could have filed for free (or less than retaining a lawyer) she would have by now. It's the finances keeping her away, she and her OM have no money, nor do her folks. She could not afford a lawyer, she needs this Dv to be no fault so she needs me to agree to it. Back in January when she asked, and I said no, had I agreed, we'd probably have it finalized right around this time.

But instead I said no and the wheels spun. But it's interesting that I did agree to sign a month and a half ago and she hasn't brought me the papers yet. But I am considering the possibility that the PB letter will kick that off.

I've decided to send the PB letter on Thursday unless W contacts me sooner. If she does though, I'm not sure what I am going to say anyway. I think I'd prefer to just send the letter. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

ALS