Just thought I'd share some lyrics tonight. I'm learning to play this song on the guitar, it's a very slow, quiet, beautiful and poignant song, and is from a favorite band of W's called "Travis". The song is called "Luv" if anyone wants to look up the MP3 and give it a listen.

I may even just give this song to her on a CD as we part ways if we end up signing divorce papers as it really conveys my feelings so well on us. Anyway, enjoy.

---

What's so wrong?
Why the face so long
Is it over?
And where you going that
You no longer belong here?
And distance tells you that
Distance must come between love
Where have you been Luv?
When the mistake we made
Was in never having planned to fall in love, Luv

Singing this song
Singing along
Makes it easier for me to see you go
But in doing so
I'm letting you go
It only serves to show me
That I'm still in love with you

Singing this song
Singing along
Makes it easier for me to see you go
But in doing so
In letting you go
It only serves to show me
That I'm still in love with you

So what's so wrong?
Why the face?
So long
Are you changing?
And where you been to that
You no longer remember?
And distance tells you that
Distance must come between love
Where have you been Luv?

It's just the chance we took
Having never planned to fall in love, Luv
Having never planned to fall in love, Luv
Having never planned to fall in love, Luv
Luv

ALS

ALS,

You have given her more than enough time to leave the OM and work on rebuilding your marriage, so you can hold your head high even after the divorce papers are signed. She is not worth the effort at this point in my opinion. I say this because she is young, fickle and doesn't seem to care about your feelings. In my opinion I would ask her for the papers to call her bluff and sign them if she gives them to you. Move on, meet someone new and quit wasting brain cells over this girl!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Called the notary in town, there is no way to transfer the title of a vehicle without both parties being present </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not even close to being an attorney by any means, so this is not legal advice. Just a thought....

I don't think the law would require you to return from..let's say...Japan... just to sign a car title. Wouldn't "Power of Attorney" take care of that?

With that in mind, couldn't you give someone that you trust a lot a "limited" Power of Attorney for that transaction, and let THEM show up?

Maybe I'm wrong, but maybe that would do it....

HCII

I respectfully disagree with mfischer

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mfisher1967:
<strong>You have given her more than enough time to leave the OM and work on rebuilding your marriage, so you can hold your head high even after the divorce papers are signed.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How long is long enough? Only ALS can answer that question. Yes she is young and yes the M is short but really, how long is long enough?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mfisher1967:
<strong>She is not worth the effort at this point in my opinion. I say this because she is young, fickle and doesn't seem to care about your feelings.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This seems to me like a HUGE disrespectful judgement against her and young people in general. The fact that she acts as if to not care about ALS's feeling is typical WS actions and not a reflection of her age or maturity.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mfisher1967:
<strong>In my opinion I would ask her for the papers to call her bluff and sign them if she gives them to you. Move on, meet someone new and quit wasting brain cells over this girl!!!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, now this does not at all seem MBish to me. Yes it is true that Dv might be necessary if the A never ends has he waited long enough? I wish I had my copy of SAA in front of me because I know it talks about how long to to do plan A and plan B.

ALS you have just started PB and she is trying everything she can do to ruin it for you. Don't fall for it. I agree with Cerri, a short quick note back about a place and time to meet and do the car IF that is what you want. Don't mention the Dv and if she does bring them home with you and sit on them. Give yourself plenty of time to think about what YOU want before you do anything. Sign the papers only when and if you are ready! Please do not let her force you into signing them.

Remember my W filed for Dv while the A was going on ONLY because she felt it was the only way out. She felt at the time that was easier than trying to face her mistakes with the A and reconcile. Maybe your W is in the same position that mine was. It is proven that when we are in a high emotional state of mind our brain stops producing the chemicals necessary for cognitive thought and our minds revert back to what worked for us when we were children. In another words, the more emotional we are the less clearly we think and the less rational our decisions.

Don't fall into that trap my friend!

Good Luck and try to have a good weekend.

ALS-

Do me a favor? Please go and read MarathonMan's post - ALL OF IT.....

Mortarman explains quite in depth the things that happen during plan-B. If you don't do anything else for yourself today, at least do this.

I think it will give you a better perspective as to your situation.

Hugs!

ALS,

I honestly meant no disrespect to your or your WW. I personally would like to have a timeline established when it comes to dealing with a wayward spouse, but that is the way that I work and has no bearing on you. I have been following your posts for months now and it seems to me that your WW has made a request for you to sign the divorce papers. Several posts that I have read on this site claim that you should delay signing divorce papers as long as possible, but others say that signing them when asked to do so is the right thing to do. The answer lies somewhere inbetween. You have been living in limbo for quite some time now. Your life has been turned upside down and it seems to me that you need to start living for "YOU" again if that makes sense. I know that there are some here that will say that this does not follow the MB principles, but honestly how long do you want to put your life on hold....1 year, 2 years...longer? Your WW has made it clear that she wants to get on with her life, what about your life??? Just something to think about.

ALS,

IMHO, nothings irks a controlling WS more than when the BS asks for the same stuff on the BS timetable and turf.

What does this mean? When you are ready for the title transfer and D paperwork you let her know. Until then if that means you keep paying for the stuff as usual, you keep doing so.

That is what I did. Then one day back in March 2001... I had a dream.... Not in the MLK fashion but in the dream with G Clooney fashion (before I found out he lives a loose life)..... Anyway, I am not a big ER fan so I don't know how my subconscience picked him but that little dream gave me the strength to bust into the WS life just to drop the bomb that I was not ready for the D so he'd better hurry up before I changed my mind.

That bomb scared the WS and made the OW do a double take. OW then claimed I was up to something.... I was, I was now ready for the D on my terms. Started taking action and in a few weeks the OW was telling me to take him back and he was begging to come home. Now this doesn't happen to everyone but what it did for my self esteem was worth it. Even if the WS did not come back home.

Hope this info helps. You have a big emotional hump/bump in your way. You need to go over it or blast it out.... wanna borrow my A blaster? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

L.

Hi everyone,

Thanks for checking in and keeping this thread alive for a few days. I was entertaining friends this weekend so I took a little MB break.

Here's the latest: W called at MIDNIGHT last night (very inconsiderably late, though I suppose her idea was to call at a time she was sure I was home to see if I'd pick up the phone). It had been a week since her last call, that I had yet to acknowledge, but I had been out of town and then very busy since then with my friends being here and all.

Anyway, she left a short, fairly angry sounding message. She started by saying that she was "pissed off" and that she knows I said I don't want to talk to her, but I need to get in touch with her, call her, email her, or whatever, to tell her if I am going to sign the divorce papers or not, because this is "her life too".

She sounded very mad at me, and it sounds like I was correct in that her definite motivation for getting together was not to sign the car title over, but the divorce papers. It sounds like she really wants the divorce ASAP for real now. She sounded very irate.

So, Plan B has not been too good to me. I had planned on contacting her this week but I guess one week wasn't fast enough for her (even though during my Plan A she could at times go 2-3 weeks without answering an email to me).

I didn't sleep well at all last night after that, and I woke up feeling a general sick feeling in my stomach. I just think it may be time to throw in the towel. The worst part is, I know that at times people say these reactions from a WS are actually a good sign in Plan B, I have definitely heard more from her and a lot more frequently since I started it -- Unfortuntaely every time I do hear from her it's just her telling me she wants the divorce now. So Plan B may have just given her more of a reason to want a divorce, too.

Kily -- Thanks for the suggestion to read Marathonman's post, I will do that today. Maybe I will see some similarities. I have read some of it before, I believe.

STTSI -- I agree with what you say, that I shouldn't judge her though I am sure I have been guilty of feeling like mfisher at times, too. Today I am just sort of getting the mindset that it may be time to accept the divorce to help me move on. I definitely don't intend to fight her on it, she has asked for it enough times, and forcing her to get a lawyer and file is just ridiculous at this point.

However, she is not getting me to show up, sign a car over to her and sign a bunch of divorce papers. I believe my plan will be to get in touch with her today via a short email, letting her know that I have been out of town and busy, and that I did intend to get in touch with her this week about the car title. I will give her a time and place for that.

The only issue I have now is that she has basically very bluntly called and asked me if I intend to sign divorce papers. So I believe I now am forced to address that. So I suppose I will let her know that if she is certain she wants a divorce, to bring the paperwork along and I will take it home with me to look it over.

STTSI, I do believe my W is at a point where she feels Dv is the only option. I continue to try and tell her otherwise, that the door is open to reconciliation, but I feel that the longer we have been apart, the more time she has spent in this PA with OM, the more impossible that reconciliation is. My W in the past has shown this pattern, though I hope it would change. In her past relationships, she has basically just used up a guy until she was bored of him, then has very easily put him in the past and moved on. I fear I may just be the latest in that line.

Mfisher -- No worries on your comments, believe me that I know where they were coming from. I have been giving her requests for divorce a lot of thought lately, and realize that I can't go on living like this. I tried to PB and give the situation time to cool down, but I haven't even been in PB a month yet and she's contacted me 3 or 4 times now to ask for a divorce. She won't stop and at some point I need to face the fact that this is a girl who REALLY wants a divorce from me.

Orchid -- I agree with you that I can continue to upset her by asking for things on my time and terms. It's obviously doing great things to upset her right now. Though I certainly don't see what benefit that's having, other than upsetting her even more, and making me feel sick because I keep hearing all these horrible things from her.

So I'm not sure what you are saying you did there, Orchid. You told your WS that you didn't want a divorce, but that if he didn't hurry up that you WOULD want a divorce, and that worked?

A couple months ago when W and I had a big talk about things, the biggest rift seemed to lift when I agreed to a divorce, and then she suddenly stopped wanting one so bad. She wanted to talk more after that. It was as if all the conflict was gone and she finally could see the reality of the situation. Perhaps it won't work that way this time, but my state does have a 3 month wait if we file no fault. My best play right now may be to look over the papers a while, then agree to sign, letting her know that she still has 3 months to change her mind before things are final. In that time, we should have NO reason to contact one another, I can finally have my Plan B. By the time those 3 months end, it will almost have been a full year of her with OM, which is the same amount of time we were married to one another. And at that point, I really should be willing to say that it was time to throw in the towel, anwyay.

Thanks all for your posts, it's going to be a rough week, for sure, it's off to a crummy start, but perhaps it's just time to take action and accept things.

ALS

ALS:

Signing the papers she presents you with are not your only options you know. If you are not sure, or are not in agreement, let her know that if she intends to D she should have you served. Rather than going along with her request, continue to throw the ball back into her court. If she wants to D, she needs to make it happen on her own.

Good Luck.

Here is a transcript of the message for posterity's sake:

12:04 AM (angry, quick tone)

“Hi ALS it’s W just wanted to let you know I’m just a little pissed off right now…Um I’d appreciate it if you’d give me a call back and give me a straight answer on things.

I know you don’t want to talk to me right now, but I just want to know whether you are going to sign the papers or not because it does affect my life.

So if you could send me an email, you don’t even have to speak to me and let me know, thanks, bye”

That's the message.

Faith, I do realize I have other options but they don't make much sense. I have given her every opportunity to come home and she doesn't want to do it. Like I said, it's not that she's not filing because she has doubts. She's not filing because she can't afford it and because (I think) she doesn't want to have to end up in a court battle where her affair comes out. She is ashamed. No fault is the easy way out for her, but it also is easy for me in that we have no lawyers, court costs, and nothing to fight over. Of course, I lose W, but she wants out regardless -- I see no way that making it harder for her will actually convince her to come home, not at this stage, anyway.

I could be wrong, just how I see it and why I don't think forcing her to file will solve anything. But you have given me something to think about. Thanks.

ALS

I know I'm going to sound like a heretic for telling you this but if, despite your best efforts, you feel like there is no hope for your marriage then give her what she wants. Who knows, she may even start to have second thoughts after you sign the divorce papers.

ALS-

Sorry to read of the spot you're in, but I think you're wise to go ahead with the D if she's bound and determined to finish the M. If it doesn't work out, you'll bounce back and most likely be better off in the long run. I know it's no fun but you're options are fairly limited at this point if you plan on keeping your word.

You mentioned that she'd be ashamed to have news of the affair come out in court and I don't mean to beat a dead horse but....you could figure out a way to make her affair known to those she works with. What's the worst that could happen? You get a D and she hates you?

Well W sent me a very hurtful message in response to me today, I wrote and told her I will meet her to transfer the car to her, and will take the papers to look them over, this was her reply. It is pretty rough.

---
I know you were away. I saw your website.

Friday will not work for me, I don't have the car. It is in the shop and I am getting a ride in so my schedule is messed up. Anytime the week of the 9th would be good, prefferably at lunch time. We may only need to go to the notary. I will check with the DMV.

I will bring the paperwork with me. You can look it over and we can arrange to get together some other time to sign it. I assume that you will still split the cost of the divorce with me. Let me know if that is different. And yes that is what I want. I told you that the last time we we sat down and talked. I wish you knew how much stress it caused me. I just want everything over with so I can go on with my life.

I just want you to know that I honestly have a chance to be very happy, and this is the only thing standing in my way.

Thank you for getting back to me. Let me know what day will work for you.
--

The thing she said about being very happy hurts, I want to ask more, why is this standing in her way and what is it that she will get out of this divorce that will make her so very happy? I suppose the question doesn’t matter yet I am still very curious. I have no idea what it is but my guess is that she is looking to move away with OM and she needs to sort things out here before she can do that. It is just so sad to see that I, the guy she once loved and married, is the only thing standing in the way of her happiness now. I wish there was a way that, as she tells me how happy she has the chance to be, I could tell her how much hurt and pain that her happiness has caused me.

I wish she could know how much it hurt me that she left and never considered giving us a chance to work things out. I have no idea what she means about “how much stress it caused me” if she means stress over deciding what to do, or stress because I won’t let her out of the marriage.

I don’t know what to tell her about splitting the cost of a divorce with her. I think she should pay it. She got that idea from right after D-Day when I was starting to rush right into a divorce with her and suggested that.

I just don’t know where to go from here, she is obviously taking control again about going to a notary, I told her where to be and when, I guess my only response now is that I can pick a day the week of the 9th and the same place and that’s that?

ALS

hey, got your email.... will you be ok til tomorrow?

C

i am sad for her. i am sad for you.

i say this with not an ounce of vindictivenes or malice toward your wife ... if she wants the divorce then it should be on her dime. the price of freedom ain't cheap.

ALS,

Why don't you take control of the process. Get the papers the way you want them and have HER sign your papers, setting YOU free to find happiness. She won't find what she is looking for with OM. He and she both find infidelity to be no problem. I don't envy their lives one bit.

I don't envy yours if you stay with her. She is an immature girl who doesn't care if you are hurt, will you please get that through your head. She doesn't care! Pure and simple. You have a good life going. You have friends, you will meet a much better class of woman than your W. You know more about relationships and marriage, and you KNOW you are willing to work on a marriage.

Hello! don't waste it on her. Just go see a lawyer, get the papers done the way you want, and present her with 1/2 have of the bill. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

ALS, it is time you looked in the mirror. You deserve far better, and her OM is going to get what he deserves. So is she.

It isn't becoming to play the victim although you were indeed victimized. It won't help her to see the real you as long as you are the bad guy keeping here from "great happiness" in her life. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> It will help you to let go, and use your obvious social skills, as well as relationship skills to find someone that does hold your values.

I know you are going to get other advice. But, you are a young man, she is a failure as a wife. Don't waste more time on her. That is my view.

I am very pro-marriage, but I am not pro-pain for little reason or gain. If your marriage is to have ANY chance to work, she will have to come to you with a completely new view of life and marriage. You cannot give it to her. Let her go. She will regret it, because I am sure your life will be a very good and successful one without her.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

wow ... there's an angle. jl just might be on to something. your wife wants you to understand how much stress you've put on her without thinking for a moment how much stress she's put on everyone else who is close to you both. she wants you to know that you are standing in her way of real happiness, yet doesn't concern herself with how greatly she stood in the way of yours.

jl is certainly right about many things. Among them: your wife is clueless about how to love; that you will find another person who will appreciate you and love you the way you deserve and want to be loved.

maybe taking the sort of control jl suggests is in store.

<small>[ May 27, 2003, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: whippit ]</small>

Whippit - I was talking to Cerri and definitely, you and she are both right, if I am agreeing to sign on a no-fault divorce, she is definitely footing the bill for everything. It's what she wants, it's not what I want.

JL - Your words have given me a lot of comfort during some very tough times, so thank you very much again for that.

Taking control of the process is an interesting idea, but sort of one that may not make much sense financially for me. I'm not a guy who makes a lot of cash at all, and especially with a house and a car payment to make on my own now, I don't have extra cash lying around.

By some calculations I am hearing, a divorce costs anywhere from $2000 to $4000 with lawyers on both sides involved. Plus, if we get lawyers involved and get into a court battle, my W will likely try and take some of the house (though how much she is entitled to I have no idea, I bought it before we met but made payments while married, house is still in my name), same with our other car, etc.

So I guess the bottom line is this: Is it worth thousands of dollars to me for the right to say that I divorced my W for MY freedom and happiness, when the end result is the same? Probably not in this example. I could certainly see if she was filing on her own how I would want to consider that, but with a cheap, $100 no-fault filing as an option, with no property disputes, it is probably the quickest and certainly cheapest way out, and has the least impact on me financially.

JL, you are right in that my W is immature and has some issues to deal with. I guess it just makes me sad because I have learned so much and was hoping to have the chance to help her, and to help us help each other as well. Of course at this point meeting someone else seems like it will never happen, but I am hopeful that it will. I do think I am still just more afraid of being alone than I am of losing my W.

I guess the hardest thing in all this is to look back and remember the W that I married, and how much we did for each other, and cared for each other. It hurts even more to think of the good times than the bad times, for that is the W I truly miss and wish that could have come back to me.

At this point, with that single line about my keeping her from this great happiness, it really shows me that it does do me no good to hold on. Hanging on will just make her resent me more than she obviously already does. The sad thing is, I was never even that bad of a guy to her. She just wasn't happy enough and that was all it took for her to look elsewhere.

I agree, that the only chance for us would have been if she would have had some sort of emotional renaissance where she realized a lot of things needed to change. And that may come, I'm not sure, but you are correct in that I can't give that knowledge to her, especially if she doesn't want it.

I'd always hoped it wouldn't come to this moment, or I guess I'd at least hoped it would be harder for her, but she's stated simply enough that she is very happy in her new life and that I am now the bad guy standing in her way. So it is time that I step aside.

I am sure I can have a happy, successful life with or without someone. I was actually a pretty good single guy before I met W 4 years ago, and I am learning to be that again. I guess it's just that I truly enjoyed having someone to share everything with, and I long for that again. I do hope I'm blessed with another chance with someone new and that things can go better for me the next time.

ALS

<small>[ May 27, 2003, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: ALostSoul ]</small>

ALS,

No, you go get the no fault and present it to her. She hasn't done it yet, and then split the cost.

Now, let me go further. You are just 29. I didn't marry until 31. At 29 I was truely having a very very good time in my life. I feel you should be as well.

Next, at the risk of maybe making a few of the female readers unhappy, let me say this: helping women, or being the White Knight is a wasted effort. Pure and simple.

Women with problems, have ... problems and you aren't going to fix them, any more than they will be successful in changing you. ALS you are looking for a woman that is your partner, not your step child. You are looking for a woman that WANTS to be with you, but doesn't NEED to be with you. ALS, you are looking for a woman that you find has no habits that drive you up the wall, someone you would rather be with than the ... guys. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

There are woman out there like that. THey can love, be loved, and be a partner. They are happy with themselves, and therefore will be happy around you. That doesn't mean that marriage is a walk in the park, but really it is easier than it seems on this site. IF you find the right woman. Marriage should not be a struggle, it should be a partnership between people that share many views of life, and love.

I AM NOT DESCRIBING YOUR W AM I? I don't think so.

Hence, don't fear being alone. You have been for the last year. You have friends, you will make many more in your life. I am in my late 50's ALS and I will tell you that life is too short to waste time on fixing people. You cannot help them.

THe addage "No good deed goes unpunished." is closer to the truth than you think, but it is a bit cynical. So don't save her from herself. She has to do that. Save you best work for the lady that wants it and deserves it.

That is my take on this. Your W might surprise you, but at her age I doubt it. She has no clue what she has done to you, and doesn't care because you are NOT HER HAPPINESS. Of course OM won't be either, but that is another story. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Go for it ALS. Go for the good life, and enjoy it. You will do well I am sure. And remember Churhhill's quote: The best revenge is a life well lived.

God Bless,

JL

Hi ALS -

How are you holding up?

You know what my H and I went through pretty well, we have shown you the similarities between our situations -

My H put it best when he said that I filed for D b/c I thought it was the only way out. I couldn't face what I had done - I was SOOOO ashamed of myself. I figured that if I was that ashamed of myself - then he must be more ashamed of me and WHY would he want to be with me?!?! That is why I filed for D (but you already know this <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

I agree with what others have to say - if SHE is the one that wants the D, then SHE is the one that should pay for it, not you. Take the papers home and sit on them for as long as you can. I know that once I filed for D, I saw things through a COMPLETELY different set of eyes. I realized SO much after I had filed - maybe she will be the same way???

Anyway - I am around tonight if you want to send an e-mail. Take care of yourself (and don't get too stressed out) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />