Good Goddess.... I bury my head in my work for a day or so and you become the most popular spot at GQII!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Ok, here's what I started to say when something weird happened.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

So just a few thoughts and an apology in advance if I mix up who said what.....

I'm saddened to see so many jumping on the divorce and move on bandwagon. I think I even saw one reply (but it could have been elsewhere, it's been a busy week) that was looking ahead to dating and a new relationship already.

To the first, here are some quotes from Michele Weiner-Davis' book, Divorce Remedy. They are addressed towards therapists, but I think are accurate for friends and family as well. On these pages she talks about the ethics of professionals stating that the marriage is over and that there is no hope:

~~~~~~
From Chapter One: The Not So Great Escape / Sub Heading Well Meaning Therapists: (p31-33)

"Too many therapists give people the message that divorce is a reasonable solution when hopelessness exists....... The truth is no matter how many degrees a therapist might have, or how smart s/he might be, there is absolutely no way for a therapist to know when a marriage has reached a dead end." (emphasis in original text)
"But this doesn't stop many therapists from acting as if they have a crystal ball. (She goes on to cite common reasons therapists advocate for divorce)......Although these predicaments make marital repair more challenging, none of them is, by any means, a marital death sentence. Telling people that their marriage is doomed is, in my opinion, fortune telling at best and unethical at worst."

On how/why professionals' views may be slanted:

"To begin with, you need to know that first and foremost, therapists are people. No matter how well trained they may be, it's impossible for therapists to check their personal values, morals, and perspectives at the door at the start of a therapy session."

"For instance, therapists are trained to encourage people to pursue the parts of their lives that bring personal happiness and satisfaction, even if these goals are at odds with what's best for the marriage, the children, or even the individual in question in the long run. The therapist wants you to feel good and do whatever it takes to make that happen." (emphasis in original text)

From Chapter Six: Step Number 5 - Experiment and Monitor Results
Seeking a Therapist who is solution-oriented:

"Don't let your therapist [ and I would add ANYONE ] tell you that change is impossible. Human beings are amazing and they are capable of doing great things especially for the people they love."
~~~~~~

We all fall into the category of wanting what is best for the people we know and care about. And when we see that they are in pain, we want that pain to end as quickly as possible and to see them move on to a happier future. But when it comes to marriage if we really are proponents of the MB philosophies and concepts then we need to move beyond the thought that when it doesn't work, divorce is a solution. Marriage is (at least in my view of things) more than a legal contract, it's a sacred covenant.

So, although we can't stop ALS', or anyone's spouse, from seeking a divorce, and even going through with it, I try to encourage people to continue on the MB track until they reach the very end, not to jump off before that time. Plan A, Plan B, and then divorce. And then to take the needed time to heal, because there is healing that needs to be done.

People DO change. They change every day, for better or for worse. My own marriage journey is a testament to that. And although we know what ALS' wife is saying, we can't know what's in her heart or her head. The hallmarks of the unfaithful spouse is dishonesty and fog. And no matter what any one of us feels in the moment it is always subject to change in the future.

I can attest to the fact that as a WS you do things such as file for divorce and you state adamantly to everyone you know that it's over, there's no hope, that this is what you want, they the jerk H is standing in your way of happiness.... and all the while on the inside you have this dead, empty feeling, and all you want is to go back to a time before the affair ever happened. We don't know that's what's going on with ALS' wife, but we don't know that it's not either.

So then, what to do? Certainly not sign papers as an after thought to signing over a vehicle. I would say take them and have them reviewed by an attorney. I'm not sure I'm opposed to signing them if it saves him legal fees and emotional distress, but I would reiterate a Plan B statement as well.... that the door is open under certain conditions.

A woman that attended the DB Training with me said that her parents were divorced twice and they're still married. She seemed pretty pleased with how they learned to work through their issues. I don't have the stats on remarriage after divorce, but it's not unheard of.

I think exposing again/more to her family - I think I read that here as a suggestion - is an excellent idea... and this time making sure she knows, along with the reality of a divorce, that it doesn't make the world a better place, might end the A. Was it JL who said OM is not getting a bargain here? How true!!!! He's getting a woman who cared so little for her marriage that she betrayed her vows, if I was him I'd be worried. And I think someone else said that her depression and neediness is going to get old for him too. Definitely.

So I really do think the A will end. Divorced or no it would be in keeping with the Plan B focus to keep the door open for reconciliation when that happens. The question is for how long. Harley says 2 years. I can see ALS turning pale!! But a year to take care of yourself and to heal is not out of the question, is it?

Take the papers if she brings them along, have an atty look at them, and then let's talk about if you can sign them and continue with Plan B at the same time. I'm still all for taking every step to save the marriage, but it's a fine line between doing what it takes to save the marriage and shooting yourself in the foot by clinging to the letter of the law.

Well, I'm sure that's all as clear as mud. And I'm outta here to visit the 4th graders classroom for skits and fun. I'm hoping they have cookies. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C

<small>[ May 29, 2003, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: cerri ]</small>

Dear Cerri and by extraction ALS:

You are a sage and a witch as well so I am in fear of even presenting this. I agree with the use of MB principles and their proper application. However there are several factors here that speak to ALS accepting what is offered:

a) No children

b) A financial offering that is to his advantage.

c) Living apart in a WS imposed no contact situation for almost as long as they were married.

d) Consistant and unequivical expression of a desire for D from the WS.

e) ALS can of course speak for himself, however his focus on an analyzing everthing his WS does, if continued, would in my very humble opinion impede ALS's own recovery.

f) A very young, very immature WS who has shown a consistant pattern of running from her problems.

I believe Dr Harley himself has stated that without children he would not stay with an unfaithful spouse.

There is nothing to stop ALS from seeing his WS after the D, however the D protects his interest in his premarital home and all his other assets.
Mercurial? Yes. Practical? Yes. Reasonable? Yes.

I am not debating this on MB principles although I also don't think ALS has fallen too far outside of them except for right after D Day. I just think that his signing the D paper, after review, allows him to protect himself, move forward with his life and takes alot of pressure off of any future interaction with his WS.

ALS must of course do what ALS feels is best for himself. THis is as always just my very humble opinion and why I suggested he sign the papers.

I will run for cover now Cerri.

All my best.

Jack

You are a sage and a witch as well

Why thank you, what a fabulous compliment!

so I am in fear of even presenting this.

Awww Jack, you know me better than that.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I agree with the use of MB principles and their proper application. However there are several factors here that speak to ALS accepting what is offered:

a) No children

b) A financial offering that is to his advantage.

c) Living apart in a WS imposed no contact situation for almost as long as they were married.

d) Consistant and unequivical expression of a desire for D from the WS.[/b]

I agree with all of those things. And I would even add that there is no Christian moral (morals being imposed from an outside source, and ethics being an internal compass) standard that would have required him to do anything to save the marriage when the affair was discovered. Particularly as there are no children.

Personally I feel that there isn't much in terms of ethics that compells him to stay either. He has been grievously wronged and has every right to walk away.

I guess it's more about my belief that marriage is more than a legal agreement. That the connection goes to a level deeper than what we can see, it's a connection created at a primal level. And that to be really true to oneself you should exhaust all the possibilites before severing that connection. It's really more about ALS (or whoever the BS is) than about the other person.

ALS can of course speak for himself, however his focus on an analyzing everthing his WS does, if continued, would in my very humble opinion impede ALS's own recovery.

Oh yes, I agree. Plan B should be about picking up the pieces and moving on. Making (same-sex) friends and as WH once said to a caller "getting a life."

A very young, very immature WS who has shown a consistant pattern of running from her problems.

Ahhh... but Jack, that describes me, once upon a time, and still with those tendencies. I was 19 when I got married the first time. Barely 19 and pregnant.

I believe Dr Harley himself has stated that without children he would not stay with an unfaithful spouse.

He may have, I don't recall that specifically, but it's quite possible. But can he really know unless it happens to him? I said I would never stay with someone who cheated on me.... but I did, and I'm glad I did. Well.... not about the cheating.... never mind..... LOL

There is nothing to stop ALS from seeing his WS after the D, however the D protects his interest in his premarital home and all his other assets.

Very true, which is why Plan B should outlast the divorce.

I am not debating this on MB principles although I also don't think ALS has fallen too far outside of them except for right after D Day.

Absolutely. ALS has done a fabulous job all the way through this. Truly a trooper.

I just think that his signing the D paper, after review, allows him to protect himself, move forward with his life and takes alot of pressure off of any future interaction with his WS.

It's possible that could happen... with an explicit leaving the door open under certain conditions statement. But that's a different concept than just sign the papers, get her out of your life and find some woman to fill the vacancy.

Hubby and I were talking about life after divorce last night... no, no.... divorce in general, not us.... whew! that was close!! So anyway we were having this conversation about how so many people that we know or read about have these divorces that never really create a disconnect. Former spouses that continue with the fighting and the animosity long after the papers are signed. I've heard horror stories of screaming fights on the phone and nasty emails on a weekly or daily basis.... now THAT to me would be a living nightmare.

I will run for cover now Cerri.

Goof. I always enjoy and intelligent, intellectual discussion of this stuff. And generally I find that what appears to be a huge difference of opinion really isn't.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> C

cerri:

David Schnarch also said something along those lines about therapists and recommending DV in "Passionate Marriage." I will look it up and get back 2 you.

I've taken some time off the forum, myself. Had such a good memorail day weekend that I didn't want 2 get sucked back in2 the boards right away. No offense intended, as I think you're one of those that recommends we do this from time 2 time.

ALS: For what it's worth, I don't think your si2ation is hopeless by a long shot. I think your W is following the script, is all. That's new 2 you, so it hurts.

I don't even think my sitch is hopeless! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-2long

David Schnarch also said something along those lines about therapists and recommending DV in "Passionate Marriage." I will look it up and get back 2 you.

That would be great, thanks. I'm making a need to buy book list for the next time B&N has an online sale... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Oh, and of course when hubby has time to build more shelves for me.... "Hi, I'm Cerri, and I'm a bookaholic..."

I've taken some time off the forum, myself. Had such a good memorail day weekend that I didn't want 2 get sucked back in2 the boards right away. No offense intended, as I think you're one of those that recommends we do this from time 2 time.

Recommends would be a nice way of saying it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I think I'm pretty adamant about keeping personal details and venting personal, and to use the boards for support of a well defined plan following the MB concepts. I have huge (HUGE) ethical difficulties with a whole lot of what I see here, it's what keeps me from adding a discussion board to my site.

ALS: For what it's worth, I don't think your si2ation is hopeless by a long shot. I think your W is following the script, is all. That's new 2 you, so it hurts.

Yeah, she is. Doing much of the same things that I did. I wish my x had had access to SAA.... but it wasn't written yet.

I don't even think my sitch is hopeless!

Not even close!

Glad your weekend was good. That makes a couple doesn't it? Nice work.

C

My gosh, I love it when my thread takes off like this. It just makes my day. Plus I realize that I really have some of MB's best and brightest posting here, I am so honored and lucky to have such a great group that check my posts and offer their thoughts and advice! Thank you!

To Cerri --

First off, there is no arguing with the fact that it's wrong to just give up completely. That's not following MB principles and it's not what I learned here. I still realize that I have an option to prolong this divorce until she forces it on me, and then to prolong it even more. I guess I was just finding myself closer to the point of being ready for divorce anyway, but felt that maybe giving her what she has been asking for, removing that wall between us and, maybe in the 3 months that it takes to go through, pushing her out of the fog.

If you read back to the first post on this entire thread, in our talk from 2 months ago, W directly stated she wanted a Dv. And basically, I reluctantly told her I didn't, but if that's what she wants that I would sign. And immediately the dynamic between us changed that night. The tears began to flow from her, she brought up old times, good times in the marriage, she stayed and talked for hours. It was like a different W. And here we are, over 2 months since then, and the divorce, while now closer to a reality, wasn't certainly pushed as fast as I suspected.

Part of me certainly does wonder why the sudden push for the divorce from her. Does she have some sort of other plan with OM in which the divorce is essential? Moving in together, moving away together, or maybe is he even pressuring her to get it? I guess the only way to know is to ask W, but I don't see how or why I could do that, plus I couldn't trust the answer to be true anyway. Maybe she just thought it was a good time, or my Plan B letter and NC convinced her that she had to divorce to retailiate.

So basically, in short, what all of Cerri's quotes are saying there, and I get it, is that unless I am here saying proudly that I am ready and WANT a divorce, it's probably a bad idea to recommend one to me -- Of course, many of you would love to see my suffering end and that is the first step to closure, so your suggestions are noble and appreciated. And I don't think I'm far off from being "ready" for a Dv of my own, anyway. But I have only been in Plan B for a month, and I did want it to last longer than this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">People DO change. They change every day, for better or for worse. My own marriage journey is a testament to that. And although we know what ALS' wife is saying, we can't know what's in her heart or her head. The hallmarks of the unfaithful spouse is dishonesty and fog. And no matter what any one of us feels in the moment it is always subject to change in the future.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A good point. Just like one day my W woke up and decided she wanted to have this A with a co-worker, another day perhaps she may wake up and say "What am I throwing away with ALS?". I realize this as a possibility, not a strong one, but a chance all the same. And as much as it hurt to hear her tell me that I am standing in the way of her life and her happiness, even if she is convinced of that herself, it's probably not true.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can attest to the fact that as a WS you do things such as file for divorce and you state adamantly to everyone you know that it's over, there's no hope, that this is what you want, they the jerk H is standing in your way of happiness.... and all the while on the inside you have this dead, empty feeling, and all you want is to go back to a time before the affair ever happened. We don't know that's what's going on with ALS' wife, but we don't know that it's not either.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A question I wish I could ask W -- In fact, right after D-Day I do remember she said a couple of times that she wished we could turn back the clocks before the A happened and change it. But the fact that it DID happen was enough to convince her she couldn't turn back. Whether she saw it as an easy way out, or something she felt she couldn't face being with me after it happening, I may never know.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So then, what to do? Certainly not sign papers as an after thought to signing over a vehicle. I would say take them and have them reviewed by an attorney. I'm not sure I'm opposed to signing them if it saves him legal fees and emotional distress, but I would reiterate a Plan B statement as well.... that the door is open under certain conditions. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Willmakeitwork, notice that here Cerri is agreeing that it might be in my best interests to Dv here since she is pushing so hard, only going right back into my PB for 3 months after I sign. BTW I will respond a bit more to your posts separately, great stuff there.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A woman that attended the DB Training with me said that her parents were divorced twice and they're still married. She seemed pretty pleased with how they learned to work through their issues. I don't have the stats on remarriage after divorce, but it's not unheard of. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This isn't really something I think too much about but anything is possible. Should the Dv go through and a new improved W come back someday and find me unattached, you never know I suppose. But our lack of a family bond with children and other reasons make it unlikely we will have any contact at all after a Dv.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think exposing again/more to her family - I think I read that here as a suggestion - is an excellent idea... and this time making sure she knows, along with the reality of a divorce, that it doesn't make the world a better place, might end the A. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Cerri, you and I will work on expressing this in my email response to W.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Was it JL who said OM is not getting a bargain here? How true!!!! He's getting a woman who cared so little for her marriage that she betrayed her vows, if I was him I'd be worried. And I think someone else said that her depression and neediness is going to get old for him too. Definitely.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, this is so well spoken, I wonder if it's something I can somehow point out to her. Not only is he with a women who easily betrayed her vows like that, and has a track record of dishonesty (I can't even imagine how many OTHER lies she told him since then), but she is with a guy who has no problem dating a married woman. Not only that, but OM's father had an A and left his mother.

As for W's depression and neediness, that I can't really speak for. I can say that if it is at the levels it was at when she was married to me, OM will get tired of it, that's for sure. I was even getting tired of it but I never thought of giving up on W. OM may be the same way, W has a way of keeping you on the hook (while we were dating, I recall a few instances of her threatening to leave but also in doing that committing suicide, in other words I got the impression that if I were to dump her ever, that she would not want to live, so some days early on in our R I even felt trapped in it). Of course, she never followed through, they were cries for attention, but there were nights here and there where she put on quite a show.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So I really do think the A will end. Divorced or no it would be in keeping with the Plan B focus to keep the door open for reconciliation when that happens. The question is for how long. Harley says 2 years. I can see ALS turning pale!! But a year to take care of yourself and to heal is not out of the question, is it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heheheh...Not too pale. I'm not that fair skinned. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

But I believe Harley states the 2 year rule because most A's end in 2 years. And that may very well happen with W as well. The Plan B door, hmmm, well that will remain open for me during a Dv process, of that I am sure, from that point, who knows. I guess a lot of that depends on how well we can deal with each other during that process and if I feel there is ever hope for reconciliation should the A end after that, or if she wouldn't want me back anyway (she has often said that even if there was no OM, she would not want me back, that it's not between he and I, it's just her living her life -- But I think this is common fogspeak, no?).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Take the papers if she brings them along, have an atty look at them, and then let's talk about if you can sign them and continue with Plan B at the same time. I'm still all for taking every step to save the marriage, but it's a fine line between doing what it takes to save the marriage and shooting yourself in the foot by clinging to the letter of the law. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh she'll bring them along, I'd bet the house on it. So after that point, we'll discuss what the next best step to take is.

Clearer than you think Cerri, it was great, thanks! Hope you got some cookies!

ALS

WillMakeItWork --

As Cerri told you, never be afraid to contradict her, I've done it plenty of times and I'm still here to tell the tale. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Usually in the end she ends up being right though, so I sort of learned my lesson. You really didn't disagree with a lot of what she's been advising, anyway.

Your reasons for stating why I might want to just accept W's Dv proposal are all very true, and why I am closer to doing so than ever before.

Of course, the fact we have no children involved, no financial disputes, have lived apart for a very long time considering what a short marriage we had, and that she has not relented in wanting a divorce are all certainly not positive things that make me want to keep trying.

The biggest factor is probably that yes, in these 7 months I have learned that eventually, when I can avoid contact with W, I start to feel better. It's when I hear from her and she says something hurtful (whether she means to or not) that I'm back to square one again. I really need to at least have an effective Plan B, for my own sake, and W just isn't going to stop hurting me as long as I'm standing in her way.

Have I considered just telling her "Sorry, you get your own divorce, I want no part of it"? Sure I have. But in the scenarios I play out in my head, none of them end up with my W loving me any more or wanting to try again -- I'll just be seen as the person standing in her way of happiness. Like Cerri, I do agree that marriage is more than just a legal agreement, though, and despite everything, I can't explain why but I still have love for my W. Which is why I have kept trying for so long.

WMIW is right in this, though -- Signing WILL protect me financially, protects my future, and will finally allow me to truly get some Plan B with time W. There should be absolutely no reason at all for her to contact me once those papers are signed. Then it's 3 months of Plan B before the Dv is final, 3 months where W can no longer blame me for her problems, and has no excuse at all to contact me and make me hurt.

You both said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">W: There is nothing to stop ALS from seeing his WS after the D, however the D protects his interest in his premarital home and all his other assets.

Cerri: Very true, which is why Plan B should outlast the divorce.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right. I really have no plans to see W after the divorce, because really, it's still going to hurt me to see her while she is with OM. Sure, if that A were to end, things could change. My PB letter was clear of that, and if W were ever to ask me if she could see me or bring up the dreaded "can't we be friends?" line again at some point, my response will always be the same. As long as she is with OM, I have no interest in having her in my life, because it is too hurtful to me.

Unless she and OM are planning on moving away somewhere, it amazes me that she has been able to live this way for long. She told me once she goes out with him in the fear of always running into me. She is constantly looking over her shoulder when she goes to the regular places she used to go with me, now with OM. I would never want to live that way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely. ALS has done a fabulous job all the way through this. Truly a trooper. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Means a lot coming from you, C. Thanks.

My concept with sign the papers has basically always been sign them, and leave the door open under certain conditions. It may not hurt to give W a final letter along with the signed papers stating this. A "Plan D" letter. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> An "I want you to know I still don't want this divorce" letter. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Oh, and Cerri, as for your mentioning those people who never create a disconnect with divorce, that will never be me. I don't plan to have any contact with W at all after papers are signed, it would just hurt too much. And she has shown that she is also happy to not contact me as well. So at least, one day, I will be able to put this all behind me, though it will take time, as even all these months later I still find myself thinking back to the good times and missing her in my life.

ALS

Dear ALS:

I thank you for the thoughtful reply.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As Cerri told you, never be afraid to contradict her, I've done it plenty of times and I'm still here to tell the tale. Usually in the end she ends up being right though, so I sort of learned my lesson. You really didn't disagree with a lot of what she's been advising, anyway. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I always enjoy discussing issues with intellectually honest people. Cerri is that.

The beauty of these forums is you can take the opinions of everyone and filter out those that do not apply to you and keep the rest. I concur that Cerri and I agree more than disagree.

The bottom line is taking the approach that you can look at ten years later and feel comfortable with. I think you will do that ALS.

My main reason for writing to you ALS is that a disinterested person can sometimes point out those things that are most important (i.e. the forest vs. the trees approach). I know you will do that my friend.

All my best.

Jack

Thanks Jack,

I feel that way as well, really. While there were certainly those couple of weeks around D-Day where I was a mess and didn't know what to do that I wasn't perfect, as you said, but overall I have been as understanding and forgiving with W as I can.

I guess what your posts are basically about, and what my brian tells me but my heart doesn't want to accept yet, is that at some point, there really is a time where letting go becomes healthier and wiser than hanging on. I know that I will always feel like I gave this my best effort and did as much as I could, and will never regret trying.

I will always appreciate these forums not because I use them as a guideline for what to do, but because of people like yourself who can give me that honest feedback, looking at the facts (which I am always brutally honest about) and then giving me their opinion.

In the end, all the decisions are mine, and I've always worked my plans in that way anyway, but it's always nice to hear points of view different than my own, and at times, they have helped lead me in the right direction.

Thanks,

ALS

2long --

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ALS: For what it's worth, I don't think your si2ation is hopeless by a long shot. I think your W is following the script, is all. That's new 2 you, so it hurts. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We all need to take breaks from here sometimes. Glad to see you stopping back.

My W is definitely following the script, that's for sure, I just sort of worry that she is going to follow it too far, for too long (pun slightly intended).

It certainly is hurtful to hear those words from her, and again, I don't even know so much if it was that she was just not happy being married to me, I could have accepted that more if she truly wanted time on her own. The hurt is her telling me that she wasn't happy with me, but that OM is what makes her happier than ever. That is what hurts the most.

Cerri had be picking up SAA again last night and flipping through...While the couple in the book did seem to have a lot of trouble getting into recovery, I noticed that there really never was this strong desire for the WS to divorce -- Seems like many times in these situations, the hope stems from the fact that, while the WS refuses to leave the OP, they never really want to take that divorce step either. The difference with my W is that she's been ready for a divorce from the start, she's just wanted out and on with her life so she can put all this business behind her. That's what dashes my hopes some days. The fact that she just never seemed to consider trying.

ALS

Dear Cerri:

I thank you for you reply (not to take this thread from ALS LOL).

I understand your points and agree with them. I do think we agree much more than disagree.

I think it is the application of them to ALS case and specifics I may see differently.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A very young, very immature WS who has shown a consistant pattern of running from her problems.

Ahhh... but Jack, that describes me, once upon a time, and still with those tendencies. I was 19 when I got married the first time. Barely 19 and pregnant. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree Cerri. The question is how long to wait for ALS's WS to mature? Given the length of the marriage and the age of his WS I see little hope of a quick maturation process. I know from experience since I did not marry until I was 36 because I recognized my own immaturity and realized I would have made a very poor spouse. I think ALS is lightyears ahead of where I was at his age and deserves a full partner not a ward.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I guess it's more about my belief that marriage is more than a legal agreement. That the connection goes to a level deeper than what we can see, it's a connection created at a primal level. And that to be really true to oneself you should exhaust all the possibilites before severing that connection. It's really more about ALS (or whoever the BS is) than about the other person. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree wholehearted with this Cerri, however I do not feel it is intrinsic to the institution but a result of time, history, committment and the acheivment of common goals. If ALS was dealing with a longer term marriage with an equal partner and children, I would be suggesting a completely different approach to ALS ( firm grasp of the obvious in that last sentence HUH?).

At the end of the day, it is what ALS must do for his own well being that counts.

I enjoyed talking to you Cerri.

All my best

Jack

I thank you for you reply (not to take this thread from ALS LOL).

I think he kinda likes it.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

The question is how long to wait for ALS's WS to mature? ..............I think ALS is lightyears ahead of where I was at his age and deserves a full partner not a ward.

Certainly he does. But just as she made a commitment "for better or for worse," that bound her ethically to address what she didn't like in the marriage rather than skipping out, so did he.

IF she were to end the A and agree to the C4R... and act on them, he waits as long as it takes. Because that's what the marital commitment is all about. Now if she doesn't do that in a reasonable amount of time.... then he walks away with a clear conscience.

If we say that it's ok to opt out because we discover something unsavory about our partner.... immaturity for example.... that puts us on the slippery slope of no fault divorce, where the union becomes nothing more than an easily terminated legal contract.

The ramifications for others are significantly increased when there are children involved, and the implications for the couple are more complex with financial entanglements. But if you see it from my world view that says the connection is more than kids and stuff... that when those vows are spoken they resonate on a spiritual/astral/cosmic plane (pick your philosophical bent <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) then you have to look beyond just the physical division of stuff and the effect on children.

In the end, if they divorce, she will suffer far more than ALS. This will haunt her for years to come. And I guess that's a little part of why I take such a strong stand. My concern is of course for ALS, but it's more than that. It's for her too. I guess because I've been there and I have friends who've been there. I know that infidelity and divorce cause destruction and scarring for everyone involved, and sometimes mostly to the unfaithful partner. My goal is to eliminate or decrease harm - for everyone.

however I do not feel it is intrinsic to the institution but a result of time, history, committment and the acheivment of common goals.

Are you talking marriage in general and the history of it, or are you talking about indiviual marriages?

I enjoyed talking to you Cerri.

Always a pleasure. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

C

Absolutely. I was upset after D-Day and sure, I thought that when a spouse cheats, the only way out had to be divorce. Or maybe I never really thought that, but stupidly thought that the notion of that would be enough to sort of scare W back into committing to the marriage. In the back of my mind, I knew it was NOT what I wanted. I wanted my W to stay from the moment D-Day happened.

I still remember it clearly, I had my outburst the morning I confronted her on her A and she admitted it, but then she went off to work for the day (conveniently, where the OM was with her all day long) and I went back to work as well (where I just had myself and my thoughts). At the end of the day, I waited for her to come and she did, late of course, and we sat down to talk. And this was all before I found MB. Basically at that moment I told her that I could forgive her, and that she needed to stop seeing OP and that we could work on things. It was then that I was shocked to find out that she didn't want to. She was hooked and she had no intention of stopping to see him. I was shocked, and after that, until I found MB, was basically a big walking LB.

But hey, I learned fast. And I've done my best.

I have always believed in keeping my marriage vows and wanted to honor them. If I didn't know I could keep them for life, I would never have gotten married in the first place.

And of course, if there was an indication that the A could end, and she would be open to recovery, I would keep waiting for that. It's the whole "reasonable amount of time thing" I guess.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In the end, if they divorce, she will suffer far more than ALS. This will haunt her for years to come. And I guess that's a little part of why I take such a strong stand. My concern is of course for ALS, but it's more than that. It's for her too. I guess because I've been there and I have friends who've been there. I know that infidelity and divorce cause destruction and scarring for everyone involved, and sometimes mostly to the unfaithful partner. My goal is to eliminate or decrease harm - for everyone.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Granted, divorce does cause a degree of suffering and sadness for both parties. But I can't help but think of all those people you hear say "I got married too young, it was a big mistake, I'm glad I got out, etc etc...". I realize that we always tell each other here and tell ourselves that our WS's are so much worse off than we ever will be, never will be happy, etc. But aren't there cases where sometimes leaving the M DID turn out to be a good decision? Cerri, couldn't you yourself say that about your first M?

I just wonder if W may end up being happier, maybe not just because of the OM, but a combination of things -- Having her freedom back, being able to move to a different part of the country (or back home to Canada), just being independent (or as much as she can be with an OM needed).

No problem on the chatting Jack, by the way, it's all quite relevant!

ALS

But aren't there cases where sometimes leaving the M DID turn out to be a good decision?

Abuse, serial infidelity, substance issues, long term neglect..... and I'm sure there are more. Don't get me wrong, just because I think every marriage is worth the effort to save, doesn't mean I think every marriage is savable. At some point it takes two. My emphasis is on the -one- taking all the steps first before deciding it's not fixable.

Cerri, couldn't you yourself say that about your first M?

Nope. I was stupid, in the fog, arrogant idiot. And if I'd known then what I know now, things would be waaay different. My kids would still have their family and their home intact. Oh... heavens.... the pain and destruction I caused to a lot of people.... ewww...

I just wonder if W may end up being happier, maybe not just because of the OM, but a combination of things

I promise you, he will NEVER make her happy. This, I know.

-- Having her freedom back, being able to move to a different part of the country (or back home to Canada), just being independent (or as much as she can be with an OM needed).

Freedom and independence from one thing or set of circumstances always comes with a price. Dependence and constraints within the new situation.... it's just the natural law of the universe.

No problem on the chatting Jack, by the way, it's all quite relevant!

And keeps us from doing any real work. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C

HI Cerri:

Wow and I thought I would get some work done today LOL.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Certainly he does. But just as she made a commitment "for better or for worse," that bound her ethically to address what she didn't like in the marriage rather than skipping out, so did he.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Amen, I think ALS has met his committment and then some in this case. What he cannot control is her committment.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> IF she were to end the A and agree to the C4R... and act on them, he waits as long as it takes. Because that's what the marital commitment is all about. Now if she doesn't do that in a reasonable amount of time.... then he walks away with a clear conscience.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agreed as well, the question is what is reasonable? I think to wait as long as the actual marriage is more than reasonable given the lack of any indication of WS taking any step toward the M. My gut feeling tells me that in fact the removal of the M committment would help ALS and his WS relationship. I also think that in this case ALS can walk away with his head held high and a very clear conscience.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If we say that it's ok to opt out because we discover something unsavory about our partner.... immaturity for example.... that puts us on the slippery slope of no fault divorce, where the union becomes nothing more than an easily terminated legal contract.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The key here is the willingness of each party to work on the "unsavory" aspect. There are also in my opinion some absolutes (e.g. child or physical abuse) that are marriagebreakers. I think in ALS 's case there has been no willingness on his WS part to work on anything here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The ramifications for others are significantly increased when there are children involved, and the implications for the couple are more complex with financial entanglements. But if you see it from my world view that says the connection is more than kids and stuff... that when those vows are spoken they resonate on a spiritual/astral/cosmic plane (pick your philosophical bent ) then you have to look beyond just the physical division of stuff and the effect on children.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agreed, as I think that history and time build connections beyond the M such as extended families/community church as well as the social framework in general. Being a boring businessman I have done very little resonating on any spiritual/astral/cosmic/religious plane. Although, I agree that the things we do and how we treat others as well as how we live our lives resonates beyond our spheres of influence.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In the end, if they divorce, she will suffer far more than ALS. This will haunt her for years to come. And I guess that's a little part of why I take such a strong stand. My concern is of course for ALS, but it's more than that. It's for her too. I guess because I've been there and I have friends who've been there. I know that infidelity and divorce cause destruction and scarring for everyone involved, and sometimes mostly to the unfaithful partner. My goal is to eliminate or decrease harm - for everyone.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agreed, I feel for his W she will suffer greatly for the methods she has used to deal with her M. ALS has no control over this however, it is her walk through life and she must take responsibility for her missteps. I don't mean to sound cold I am not that way, but I also think by removing ALS as her demon will in fact speed her growth process (hopefully).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Are you talking marriage in general and the history of it, or are you talking about indiviual marriages?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My comment was to individual marriages and what creates the "greater" than legal bonding.

Thanks for your time Cerri.

Jack

Ooohhhh... you guys are a lot of fun today.... Very interesting thoughts and observations. But I gotta, GOTTA do some work today. Some of what I do is directly supervised by WH, so that puts a timelinesss pressure on staying on top of things!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Later...

and Jack.... there is no way I believe that nothing resonates for you on a deeper level... if that was the case you wouldn't be intersted in this conversation... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C

Abuse, serial infidelity, substance issues, long term neglect..... and I'm sure there are more. Don't get me wrong, just because I think every marriage is worth the effort to save, doesn't mean I think every marriage is savable. At some point it takes two. My emphasis is on the -one- taking all the steps first before deciding it's not fixable.

Well, obviously those cases it turns out to be a good decision, but can't it also prove true that the spouse who has an A and leaves a marriage like mine actually finds it to be a good decision anyway? Maybe she is just more alike the OM, or they get along better, or he's a better listener, or a better lover, etc etc...I mean sure, you and most others here are biased towards me from what you know of me, but how can we know for sure if OM doesn't turn out to be a better match for her than I ever was? Just because she married me doesn't mean that I was her perfect guy...She may have just thought she had no other options and was afraid of losing me, but when her first option out came, she took it.

I guess it all goes back to the whole concept of marriage, and how my W saw it. If she just saw it as another relationship and never took it seriously, if we never were officially married even, the story could be much different. It could just be that she grew apart from me and felt she wanted someone else in her life that she could relate to better. I just still to this day have a lot of trouble accepting that a piece of paper can change the way a WS feels about their partner. In fact, it's safe to say that many a WS probably doesn't even believe in the commitment of M, therefore, they are just leaving a relationship which no longer satisfies them, it's nothing more to them than that.

I promise you, he will NEVER make her happy. This, I know.

Well, in a way no one can make a person happy, only they can make themselves happy. But perhaps she will make herself happy being on her own and independent, also. Like none of us NEED someone to make us happy, she doesn't NEED me now and maybe she doesn't need the OM either. But she prefers him.

Agreed as well, the question is what is reasonable? I think to wait as long as the actual marriage is more than reasonable given the lack of any indication of WS taking any step toward the M. My gut feeling tells me that in fact the removal of the M committment would help ALS and his WS relationship. I also think that in this case ALS can walk away with his head held high and a very clear conscience.

Makes sense to me. The dynamic of my W seeing the OM and having been steadily involved with him without relenting for 7 months, since D-Day, tells me that this dynamic is no longer working. Sure, I have no window into their relationship but I suspect that I'd at least have seen some sort of hesitancy on her part to divorce if she was having second thoughts. And she isn't doing that at all. So I have considered that it may be time for me to walk away knowing I did all I could, even though I still love her, and also knowing that the removal of the commitment of M might change our dynamic as well.

I think in ALS 's case there has been no willingness on his WS part to work on anything here.

I tried asking her about therapy or MC, books, just talking, taking time to think things over, etc. Nothing worked. She was too committed to OM and remains that way, she was afraid to even sit down for a meal with me because she did not want to "betray" HIM. His presence and her fear of losing him has pretty much eliminated any desire for her to want to work on anything with me. I think she may feel that as long as she has him, there is no need for me in her life.

Although, I agree that the things we do and how we treat others as well as how we live our lives resonates beyond our spheres of influence.

I do think it says a lot about our character and the way we carry ourselves. I don't have to carry any guilt or shame over what happened with this M, I do carry hurt and loss of self-esteem, but hopefully those will lessen.

Agreed, I feel for his W she will suffer greatly for the methods she has used to deal with her M. ALS has no control over this however, it is her walk through life and she must take responsibility for her missteps. I don't mean to sound cold I am not that way, but I also think by removing ALS as her demon will in fact speed her growth process (hopefully).

Cerri knows that divorce, even when one partner wants it and the other doesn't, still hurts both sides, either now or later. So she of course is trying everything to hold every marriage together that she can.

My W made her bed and now she has to sleep in it. She does have to look at herself every day knowing what she has done. I may never know how she truly feels about it, as what I am presented with is what she wants me to perceive, not how she really feels. I do wonder if her decisions with our M will torment her someday. I wish I had a crystal ball to give her and show her how happy our future could be. It does not have to be filled with guilt or pain or regret. I wish she would come to that realization.

Leaving is fine, Cerri, guess I have just had a lot to say lately! But you go do your work, and come back and visit over the weekend or something. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

ALS

ALS:

The downside 2 all this activity on your thread is that it's impossible 2 keep up with it all! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

"My W is definitely following the script, that's for sure, I just sort of worry that she is going to follow it too far, for too long (pun slightly intended)."

Just remember that worrying about the fu2re is just as counterproductive as dwelling on the past. Neither exists except in our memories and imaginations. Remember, everything you did that you remember in the past you did when it was "now" and anything you do in the fu2re will be happening in the now, 2. What are you doing for YOU right NOW? Never mind what you imagine your W is doing or thinking. That's her job in plan B (though she doesn't realize it).

Cerri:

I wasn't able 2 find the quote I mentioned in PM, because my W is reading it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , but I quoted it in marathonman's LONG thread, if you want 2 look for it there (I tried, and wore myself out in the process!) . It was pretty short and 2 the point, though. He was suggesting that a sure-fire way of finding a good M therapist is 2 ask them what they recommend 2 2ples when they believe they should DV. If they respond with ANY PLAN whatsoever for the 2ple 2 DV, then the 2ple should see another therapist. NOBODY knows when someone else should or should not DV. Only the 2ple (and sometimes they don't even know, they just imagine, and so therapists can help, but only if they help the 2ple help themselves 2 their own "right conclusion").

♥2long

ALS,

OM may be a better fit, but it is still unlikely to work out. Why? Well my $0.02 is this.

If you W has no regrets about what she has done to you, then it is unlikely she has the internal makeup to stay in a committed relationship. If you W has simply pushed her conscience down to satisfy her short term needs, then her conscience will rise up some day and it won't help the relationship.

The same arguement can be made for OM. He has destroyed a marriage. If that doesn't bother him, then he is unlikely to stay in a committed relationship with a woman that has issues with depression.

Now, none of this really helps you does it? The reality is what they do or don't do doesn't address YOUR feelings of lose, self-esteem, etc. However, I do think a rational examination of the events suggests that you didn't have time to fail or even be favorably compared to OM. You, I think, are coming to realize this.

Your W was looking for excitment and something to help her depression. She found him. Is he a better "opiate" than you? Perhaps, but it doesn't matter because if that is all you were or he is, then there wasn't much hope that you were in a marriage that would have satisfied you.

So do what you will, but do understand this. This whole thing is about her. Interestingly, it is very likely not even about OM. It surely isn't about you. If she grows up and gets a conscience she will regret hurting you, but that won't help you. Neither can her lack of regret hurt you any further. The damage is done.

It is simply now a matter of choices for you and how you feel most comfortable setting up your future. Take you time, you have plenty.

God Bless,

JL

Oh no an attack of the 2's. I just became used 2 reading with them in the paragraph and 2long dies. Now he's been resurrected and it's time 2 relearn how 2 read again!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

ALS-
consider yourslef spanked!
I beg to differ on all counts cited here:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It could just be that she grew apart from me and felt she wanted someone else in her life that she could relate to better. I just still to this day have a lot of trouble accepting that a piece of paper can change the way a WS feels about their partner. In fact, it's safe to say that many a WS probably doesn't even believe in the commitment of M, therefore, they are just leaving a relationship which no longer satisfies them, it's nothing more to them than that.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Consider this:

She was so empty and insecure that she just fell for the first person to give her the slightest bit of attention?

Is that all your wedding and the ceremony translates to? A slip of paper? Come on, you're knocking her down here and minimizing the effects that the whole experience has had on both of you. I wasn't even married, remember? It has NOTHING to do with a piece of paper, and YOU know it!

I especially want to slam you big time for your last quote. I have read ofthen, and also heard from two therapists that an "A" is an attempt by a WS to stabilize or fix the problems in their M. If they didn't believe in commitment, they would simply walk away and not sturggle with the fence at all. I know you don't believe the last comment and you're blowing off steam, but in case you do...think about the things that Cerri, Still Trying, and I have told you. It is simply untrue to think this.