No.... stop!!! I am soooo far behind... LOL

Ok, but this I couldn't pass up..

C: I promise you, he will NEVER make her happy. This, I know.

ALS:Well, in a way no one can make a person happy, only they can make themselves happy. But perhaps she will make herself happy being on her own and independent, also. Like none of us NEED someone to make us happy, she doesn't NEED me now and maybe she doesn't need the OM either. But she prefers him.

Not to be rude or anything but... bull....

You most certainly can make someone else happy, you do it when you meet their most important emotional needs!! That's what MB is all about. Harely says that we ALL need... yes NEED... a romantic relationship. I don't know that I agree with the all inclusiveness... but I do know that it's impossible to meet your owm emotional needs.

I never cease to be amazed at how pop psychology finds its ways into the nooks and crannies of our brains and then takes root like quack grass.... impossible to eradicate... even when it so violates common sense.

No one denies that we can make someone unhappy. And if we're in an intimate relationship with another person we all know what buttons to push to create just about any emotion in the other person. Why on earth is happiness somehow exempt from that? It's an outgrowth of the "Me" generation that says live for yourself... a way to elude guilt or consequences of our actions. After all if we can't make someone happy then we are absolved of all obligation towards the people in our lives.

Here's a link with thoughts along the same lines: Codependency movement ruining marriages

C

This site is still called Marriage BUILDERS, is it not? If I'm not mistaken, isn't one of the bigges love busters one can commit a disrespectful judgement?? Yet they are rampant all over this thread. I'm sorry, but who are ANY of us, BS or WS, to sit here and judge ALS's W or try and tell him what's wrong with her???

ALS must of course do what ALS feels is best for himself.

Quite possibly the best advice you've gotten here ALS (with the exception of Cerri of course <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). The thing you have to remeber ALS is that Cerri is a pro, she does this for a living every day. At best, we are amateurs, at worst we are like those anti-marriage therapists Cerri was talking about. Don't get me wrong, this forum is a GREAT place for support, for advice....eh..I have doubts. Like it says above, you have to do what YOU feel is best for YOU. Only you will know that, not even Cerri can tell you what that is. Come here for support, we're happy to be there for you, just like everyone was/is there for us when we need it. But talk to Cerri for the advice, it's what she does. Sorry I haven't kept up with your thread latley, took a break from the forum, spending my quality family time (yes Cerri, that includes my 15 hours/week <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). I am sorry for you that things are what they are right now. Your situation is not hopeless though, unless you think it is in which case you would be right, or something like that.

I think you have gotten some really good insights here, like readytotry (STTSI's W if I am correct?). My kudos to her for having the courage to try to work on her M and to come here and post her insights, lotsa respect!! So that's my .02$ worth, do what you like with it. Just like everyone elses' advice, so must mine be taken but with a grain of salt. My best wishes to you brother, take care.

MTD

Hi CERRI!!!!! I just missed you <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> . Sorry for the thread jack ALS, butting out now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> !

Kily,

Maybe I misspoke or was misunderstood. Let me try and clarify but then you can still tell me if you think I am wrong. Deal? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

To me, the marriage was certainly NOT just a piece of paper. Not at all. I meant and continues to mean so much more to me than that. I don't think anyone here will argue that I am not committed to W completely.

What I was trying to do there was intrepret how SHE feels/felt about our M. She was in a deep depression before I asked her to marry me, because she had quit school (her own decision) because she could not stand not seeing me enough, and moved into the house with me. Of course, we had only been dating a year or so at the time, so I was not ready to propose marriage at that point.

So, she basically lived here at the house for many months, watching me come and go to work every day, having no friends, no car, no job, no money. And I know that was hard for her but there wasn't anything I could do. She did not have citizenship and could not get a job, even though we tried every LEGAL option we could.

I did love her though and I knew I wanted to spend my life with her, so I asked her to marry me. I had it all planned out to do it on a trip to the beach. About a week before that trip, W went into a very deep depression fit again, telling me that she wanted to move home and that I should just go to the beach with my friends (this is all stuff I'm hearing while I have an engagement ring in my bag, nice huh)?

But still, I told myself hey, I understand, she has no ability to work here, no direction, just an empty house all day long and I love her, once I ask her to marry me she will see we are going somewhere.

So, that did make a difference. There was direction. She still couldn't work until we got married so there was still depression and sadness from her, but again, I did always look forward and say "Once we do XXX, she will feel better." As in, once we get married, she won't be depressed. Or, once we take this vacation, she'll feel better. Or, once she gets a job, she'll feel better. Etc. But none of those things ever worked.

I am getting WAY off on a tangent here. Let me get back to my original point.

This is just my perception, and I may be wrong: But I think my W is afraid to be alone. She needs someone in her life at all times. I hoenstly do not see her as capable of living somewhere on her own without a man in her life. I know that may be a petty thought but she herself has admitted it to me after D-Day anyway. She wants to be, but is incapable, of being dependent on only herself for happiness.

I think she married me in the HOPE that it would make her happy, and also because she felt she had to accept or lose me, something she feared (she didn't want to be alone).

We had a friend of mine marry us on a beach in Florida. No guests. Just us, nothing fancy. They took pictures but my W refused to ever let my family members see a single one even though they asked (she said she was fat and did not want anyone to see the photos ever). So it was basically like the wedding that never happened.

I think she really may have seen this is as just a way she could finally get citizenship and get a job. Now, I don't see this as her USING me to get citizenship in this country. She never even wanted to live here, she wanted me to move to Canada. But I do feel that she loved me, but also loved the idea of being able to legally live here and work, etc. Having a normal life.

Yet, her depression continued. She kept me up until 3 AM many mornings just crying or upset that she just wasn't happy. I tried to listen, some nights just physically unable to stay awake. She told me I was a bad listener and couldn't help. She talked of killing herself sometimes, often had incidents where she'd run out the door and disappear, or take the car out for a drive in the middle of the night. Or just go sit out on the porch and cry.

I'd later find out that about 3 months before D-Day, 9 months after we were married, she decided she was unhappy with the marriage (but she never told me this). She kept it to herself. The cries for help to me stopped, the depression was no longer visible. She'd later tell me she cried when I wasn't around. I thought things were better. She had just closed off.

The first friend she made at work was OM. She had no other friends here but me and my circle, and OM was all it took for her to leave.

She left me basically for the first person other than me that she met down here. And only a year after we got married. And even though I gave her every chance in the world to stay and begged her to try, she didn't want to stay.

It sounds like, to her, from her point of view, our marriage just meant nothing to her. After D-Day, she told me she never wanted to be married in her life, she only did it because she had to in order to live here and work, otherwise she never would have made that commitment to me. I think she is a girl who can't make a commitment, who likes having someone but also likes having the option to run if things go wrong.

So yeah, I think to her, the marriage was a piece of paper that allowed her to live and work here. Our relationship was just that to her, another in her line of relationships that she could walk out on when she no longer cared.

I said WAY more than I thought, but I also need to answer your second comment.

I disagree that my W having an A was an effort for her to fix the marriage. I've been once told that what she may have had was termed an "exit affair", in other words, she already knew the marriage was over, and needed a way to end it quickly. By betraying her vows, she felt I would no longer want her and it would be a quick way out. Not only that, but she didn't have to have that feeling of being alone for even a day. She could break her commitment but not lose any of the love, care, sex, companionship, etc.

Kily, I don't think that she ever struggled on the fence. She has been asking for this divorce since the day she left the house. I have just been saying no or stalling. Sure, she never filed herself but I have explained why that is. She needs me to do a no-fault. I see her as not believing in commitment, and I do see her as just walking away. I just don't think she was ever on that fence. I think she jumped right over.

Maybe I am just angry and making disrespectful judgements here. This is just how I feel about my W today, it doesn't mean I don't love her still, it's just my interpretation of what I have heard, seen, and read from her since D-Day. I know this could be wrong, but I have read about and seen so many situations where the WS was at least somewhat hesitant or more obviously on the fence than this. She just never seemed to even have a doubt.

I got your email as well, and will get to that today also. Thanks, it was great.

I will also get to 2long and JL later too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Maybe if I go slower it will be easier for you 2 keep up, 2long!

ALS

<small>[ May 30, 2003, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: ALostSoul ]</small>

Hi MTD.... 15 hours a week, perhaps the most important thing you can do in your marriage... and a lecture I need to hear at least once a week.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Glad to hear things continue to be good. I think of you often.

C

Hi MTD.... 15 hours a week, perhaps the most important thing you can do in your marriage... and a lecture I need to hear at least once a week.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Glad to hear things continue to be good. I think of you often.

C

LOL.... I guess I really need the 15 hour lecture, I posted it twice!! LOL

<small>[ May 30, 2003, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: cerri ]</small>

Whew, I was scared, I thought C read my last post and was coming on to yell at me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Ssssh, we posted at the same time, maybe she won't see it. Don't anyone tell her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Bye C. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

ALS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ALostSoul:
<strong>Whew, I was scared, I thought C read my last post and was coming on to yell at me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Ssssh, we posted at the same time, maybe she won't see it. Don't anyone tell her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Bye C. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

ALS</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The All Seeing C... Sees it All... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

(but she has no time to even be here reading!! much less replying <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

MTD

In a way, you led me to Cerri, so I am forever thankful for that. She has been wonderful to me and helped me find and stay on the path as much as possible.

I'm guilty myself of having disrepectful judgements against W from time to time. I really don't want to believe they're true, I just think I come up when them when I try and justify why she was and continues to be capable of hurting me. Like so many BS's, I just want answers, I need a complete 56-point explanation, when she herself may not even be able to give me one. I need to convince myself to just accept what is happening, and understand that whatever happens was what was meant to be, not something I could control.

ALS must of course do what ALS feels is best for himself.

Yes, of course this is such simple and great advice. I think the problem is though I DO have trouble letting go. Cerri has told me in the past that I should have went to Plan B much sooner. I had trouble letting go of W and my Plan A for months. And I may need to hear things like some are saying -- My W has not once shown interest in saving the M or even trying, and it's been a very long time since D-Day, almost as long as my marriage itself was prior. There are facts like this that my heart ignores but my brain should see and tell me that at some point, I really DO have to let go for my own good. I am just not raised as a quitter, so of course divorce will ALWAYS go against my every instinct.

Trust me, I do come here to hear advice, but in the end, Cerri and I wade through all of this stuff and my emails and she and I come up with what we agree works for the both of us. And that's what's put into place then. But these discussions have helped us both a lot, and also shown us what NOT to do at the same time.

I guess I won't ever see my situation as hopeless. I am a very optimistic fellow. I get down and depressed at times, and my marriage survival rate has certainly dropped in my opinion as time goes on, but it's never reached 0%.

Ready2Try (STTSI's wife) has been wonderful to me, as well as STTSI, Kily, Cerri (all of whom I have email conversations with often) and so many who post here, like whippit, JL, yourself, 2long, Mortarman, Mark, the list goes on and on. Every one of these people have consistently given me things to think about, given me support, hope, and comfort.

Thanks for the wishes, I'm hanging in there and doing the best I can for me.

ALS

JL --

OM may be a better fit, but it is still unlikely to work out. Why? Well my $0.02 is this. If you W has no regrets about what she has done to you, then it is unlikely she has the internal makeup to stay in a committed relationship. If you W has simply pushed her conscience down to satisfy her short term needs, then her conscience will rise up some day and it won't help the relationship.

That's the strange thing. It does bother her, but not enought to make her want to come. She has apologized to me, she has expressed regret on HURTING me, but she has not once expressed regret about leaving me. It's like her conscience bothers her for the methods she used to leave, but she is not upset that she left. Does that make any sense?

She told me 2 months ago that she saw herself as a horrible person. It's funny though, she is also under the impression that the divorce will put this all the past, and she won't be a horrible person anymore. As if when she's single, she can pretend she was never married or something. I know, I don't get it either. I guess once she gets her maiden name back, there will be no one new that will ever have to know about her divorce. I know it shames her. But it doesn't stop her.

The same arguement can be made for OM. He has destroyed a marriage. If that doesn't bother him, then he is unlikely to stay in a committed relationship with a woman that has issues with depression.

Well I did have an email exchange with OM at D-Day. He said he felt bad about the A and that I should take my W back and take care of her. W told me OM felt awful about what happened. So I guess he was bothered initially. But W could have told him many lies (and she did) to make me out to be horrible to help him feel better about it. She manipulated him into continuing the A, by telling him she was leaving the M.

An interesting tidbit, when I read their emails just after D-Day, I saw one where she was basically pressuring him to be there for her. At the time, she wasn't asking him for a commitment, just to be her sex buddy. But she threatened him, if he wasn't going be there for her, she was going to move back to her parents' place. He was reluctant at first and she was the aggressor. At this point I got sick of reading their emails and had to stop doing it.

As for her depression, that I'm not sure. It depends on the person. I dealt with a lot with W's depression but I was committed to her and I would never have left her. OM may be built of the same fiber as me. Some people can see the person inside, focus on the good, and love a depressive person anyway. I did.

Now, none of this really helps you does it? The reality is what they do or don't do doesn't address YOUR feelings of loss, self-esteem, etc. However, I do think a rational examination of the events suggests that you didn't have time to fail or even be favorably compared to OM. You, I think, are coming to realize this.

Right, it doesn't help me feel better about myself, but that is just due to the plain truth that I was rejected for someone else. But at least I can understand what you are saying, in that really I am more a victim of my W's emotions than I am of my own mistakes. I may have not been 100% perfect, neither was she, but I loved her and honored my commitment where she was incapable of doing so.

Your W was looking for excitment and something to help her depression. She found him. Is he a better "opiate" than you? Perhaps, but it doesn't matter because if that is all you were or he is, then there wasn't much hope that you were in a marriage that would have satisfied you.

Yes, exactly. She was a new woman when she found OM. Peppier and happier (but of course a lot different and suspicious) and I am sure the newness of the A made him a much better opiate. Today, 7 months later, he is probably still a better opiate in that she has less baggage with him than she does with me. For now, anyway. She can probably at least tell herself they both were particpants in infidelity, so they are on equal ground. She would probably never see herself as an equal to come back to an R with me after what she has done.

It is simply now a matter of choices for you and how you feel most comfortable setting up your future. Take you time, you have plenty.

I do dream of a future where W is home and a new person. A happy one who has learned to deal with her depression and grown. But I do fear she may not be capable now, if ever. It may be a constant pattern for her. Or maybe she just needs to find her perfect man that somehow helps her to balance it all out. Who knows.

I forgot to mention Jack and probably some others in the last post too. But thanks to everyone! You are all appreciated!!!

ALS

WS script, ALS. WS script.

-2long

Which Part? Everything? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Funny how I write a book and you can summarize it so simply. I need to learn from you, man!

ALS

Yep, Everything!!!!!!

I really mean that, 2.

Cogitate a bit: When this is all over, your W will still be a human being. I'm betting there's a conscience in there somewhere that will come out even2ally and wake her @$$ up. Heck, OM may even have a conscience. Right now, it's 2 much fun playing with your W, but maybe in the long run he'll start feeling like the jerk he's become 2. ...kinda makes you wonder why you didn't send him the copy of your plan B letter after all, doesn't it?

Ask Cerri what 2 do.

-2long

Sir, you make a very true point, and it hurts. I am wishing I sent the PB letter to OM now. W would be angrier right now because of it, but the end result would have been the same. I didn't send it in the hopes that kindness would win out in the end, but not sending it was probably the bigger mistake.

I still like to think that my W might considering coming home should the A end of her or OM's own decision. If she can look back and see that I let go of her with love. But sending the PB letter to OM and/or her parents will be seen as a deliberate act of sabotage to her. She's a smart girl -- She knows that my motivation behind sending it would be to cause problems between her and OM. And I know she would resent me for that. Maybe not forever. But let me tell ya, as evidenced by past problems in our marriage, the girl sure can hold a grudge.

Getting back to the letter to OM, what really has me thinking now is this: I can't be sure what she told him about me and about these last 7 months. Does he know that she has met up with me and had some fun and laughs here at the house on a few occasions, staying longer than she needed? Probably not. Does he know that I asked her many times before she moved out to please reconsider and stay to work on the M? Probably not, I believe he was told I kicked her out and didn't WANT her back. Does he know I have been fighting for the M? Probably not, her story is probably that I don't want her anymore and that the marriage has been over (though I'm not sure how she explains the divorce delay, unless she tells him I am just delaying it to cause her hardship).

Anyway, sending OM the PB letter (along with a personal line or two to him attached to it explaining why) would cause ripples. It might at least cause HIM to feel guilt, or doubt (if she's been lying to him). It would certainly anger W to no end.

I doubt sending it to her parents will have much effect, they already know the full story as I've told them, it would only make W aware that

Of course, it may be too late for all of this now, anyway.

At this point, I really don't have anything to lose, it's just a matter of whether I want to go out looking like a good guy to her, maybe a guy she'd reconsider before the Dv is final or in the future...Or go out looking like a bad jealous scheming guy to her and everyone else. Either way I go out, it's just a matter of how I'm remembered.

ALS

Okay, so check out what I just wrote. Not sure it will ever get sent, and if it did it would need editing, but imagine the OM reading this:


I hesitated sending this, but I felt I had a right to do so. W might think otherwise, and this may anger her, but still, nothing I am saying here is false, so please keep that in mind as you read on. This gives me an opportunity to be honest and clear the air about a few things.

Since before W moved out and until recently, I have been doing all that I can to save our marriage and understand what led to her seeking comfort elsewhere. I have been participating in marriage counseling and doing quite a bit of reading on the subject. Not once since she left have I told her that I did not want to stay married to her or that I felt we could not get through this together. All she had to do was be willing to try.

I can certainly accept that she was unhappy and that her life with me was not satisfying her. But I did not feel that gave her the right to lie to me and start seeing you behind my back. She was, and actually, legally, still is, my wife.

I have made great strides and know for sure that, if W would try, our marriage could be saved. And I know she would be happier than she could even imagine. But, after 6 months trying to convince her of this, I was just starting to grow too hurt to see her affair with you continue. So, I sent this letter to W at the beginning of this month. This is a copy of it. I have not changed a thing:

--
INSERT PB LETTER HERE
--

I can’t control W, and she does have the right to make her own decisions and do what she feels she needs to be happy. W has responded to this by asking for a divorce and I am not going to stand in the way of that if that is what will bring her happiness.

I’m not writing to bully you or invade your privacy, but I did feel that, as W's husband, I had a right to be heard, and to let you know that I am very sad and disappointed that you took part in breaking up our marriage, even after I asked you to please give me time to work on my relationship with her. Had she tried, or even waited to get involved with someone else until after our marriage had ended and we were divorced, I would see things differently. But what you enabled was wrong, and I hope you are able to live with that. You are breaking up a marriage, and that will never be the right thing to have done.

Hm...

She may indeed be a smart gal. So is my W, but right now she's only firing on 9 cylinders... ...which sounds pretty good until you realize that she's got a V-16 under the hood.

How about sending the OM a copy of the plan B letter at the same time you politely suggest that he pay for the DV?

Kill 2 stones with one bird, eh?

ALS:

My computer sat idle for a long time while I was distracted at work, so you posted before I did.

I think your letter 2 OM is 2long. It has a lot of what *I* would like 2 say 2 RM, but know that everybody here would tell you 2 cut it short, and cut out anything that sounds like you're angry or hurt. You don't want him 2 have any ammo 2 label you as pitiful or anything.

Again, ask Cerri what 2 say, if anything.

-2long

Yeah, my letters always tend to be a lot wordier than they need to be.

I really don't know if I want to send anything at all still, it's just there in the file along with everything else if I need it.

I really need to ask myself if I feel sending it would do any good. I don't have faith that it would save my M, it may even end it sooner or with more animosity and no chance of ever recovering. But at least I will be able to be at peace with the fact that OM knew the truth, or at least heard the truth from me. Whether he believed it or not would be his own choice.

Thanks 2long, it's another option for me to have in the bag, anyway.

ALS

Yeah, my letters always tend to be a lot wordier than they need to be.

Really???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I'd never noticed!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I really need to ask myself if I feel sending it would do any good.

The thing is ALS, -you- won't, and can't, know that answer. All you can know is what's been shown to work in most cases over a long period of time. To do that you need to go to the experts who have experience in helping couples end affairs to see what they've done that's worked. And no, I don't mean me.

Over the past 20+ years I've read and studied pop culture and the experts on reltationships in general and marriage in particular... from a whole bunch of viewpoints... fundamentalist Christian, Catholic, New Age, Codependency Movement, Recovery Slanted.... You name it, I've read about it (I didn't do drugs and alcohol as a kid... I did books... what a nerd <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

So I've been exposed to just about every POV at some level. But the question to keep in mind when deciding what to do is always.... Has any particular method been shown to work? Does it do on a regular basis what it claims?

One of my weird talents is being able to see patterns. Number patterns, letter patterns, emotional/behavioral patterns to name a few. I always score really high on this on personality or aptitude tests. It makes husbands (mine) crazy when I can point out instantaneously that something they or someone else is saying doesn't add up. It's probably why I can sniff out an affair with just a few clues...

Anyway.....that's why after reading so much and observing people for so many years I'm so much an advocate of Harley's methods and suggestions. Because it makes sense.... the patterns line up. And it works. Not every time.... nothing does. But what I see is that the more of his suggestions one uses (even if you don't get it or don't believe it at the time) the more likely your chances of success in the long run.

When you're in a crisis or conflict.... be it an affair or just a icky marriage.... you can't always see the bigger picture. You can't see all the energy/emotional dynamics and how the results of certain actions will play out in the long term.... how the lines in the patterns will intersect with the other lines and what effects it will cause on the whole picture.

It's not a failing on the part of the person in the situation... it's simply being human and being too close to the situation. It's why lawyers don't represent themselves and doctors don't treat their own family.

You have the absolute and unalienable right to make the final decision about any action. Sometimes though, we have to go with what the experts say, even when we don't see how it applies to us because they can see the bigger picture based on years of experience, trial, and error.

I told you a long time ago when we first started talking that I don't see much success with women because they base their decision on their intuition and how they feel about what they're doing. And they fail. When it comes to ending affairs and getting your spouse back you cannot (CANNOT) listen to your emotions.... they will lead you down the wrong path every time.

This huge desire that you have to look like the good guy, the nice guy... to not cause ripples and not have her be angry at you is admirable. It demonstrates that you really are an upright caring person. But it's getting in your way. It's like being a surgeon and being afraid to make a cut because doing so will cause pain to your patient.

Your wife getting angry at the things you do to end the A will not do nearly as much to decrease your chances of reconciliation as being in the affair over a long period of time will.

Plan A is not about being a nice guy. Plan A is about ending the affair.... being a nice guy is part of that, but only part. That's why confronting and exposing are crucial elements of Plan A... and if you're not doing those things then you can't really say that you're doing Plan A.

Can you still do them in Plan B? Sure. It's not as clean, but with this divorce thing going on right now you have a good oppportunity to revisit those strategies. And then I would want to see you walk away. Not from the marriage, but from the hassle and the rehashing and the what iffing. At that point you've done what you can and you just have to see how it all plays out.

Did you see Harry Potter? How when they made some of their potions they had to let them sit and bubble for a while? That's what Plan B is about. Move on, get a life, have some fun.... and give the things you did in Plan A time to ferment and work. Even and especially the difficult things.

I would say that Plan A is like working a good spell.. and that Plan B is like the tying off and letting go parts... but then Johnh39 would come and whap me over the head and we'd have to have a discussion about spells and prayers... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

C

<small>[ May 31, 2003, 03:57 AM: Message edited by: cerri ]</small>

Alright, Cerri, first of all, what ARE you doing awake and posting at that ungodly hour? My goodness.

Second, alright, you know what? Let's do it then.

Let me know what you think of what was written and posted here above, if it's too much, to little, or just right.

And I'll send it.

I really don't see what the worst that can happen is that won't already change things.

The sooner I send it before I need to see W in person, the more time she will have to cool down.

Plus I suppose at the same time, I should also send a reponse to her about getting together to sign over the vechicle, send the PB letter to her parents and/or let her know that her parents are aware.

Do it all with one big swoop and see what happens. Guerilla tactics, if you will.

Let me know what you think and if it still all sounds like a good idea when you are actually awake at a normal hour. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

ALS