als ... glad to see you've located your stones. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (i kid because i care)

one of the things that cerri said kind of struck a note with me (and this isn't about me, i promise). shortly after christmas last year i stumbled across a book called "no mr. nice guy." go get it. it's not about being a [censored]. it's about men not apologizing for who we are. men of the last 50 years or so have spent a lot of time trying to garner love/happiness/acceptance by being nice. instead, we've ended up with none of these. being nice guys has led us down this path of insuring that our own needs are rarely met. this book has taught me a lot.

you've mentioned it yourself in this thread that you're at least as concerned with how you're perceived as you are with your goal of saving your marriage. sometimes, though, you've gotta throw down the gloves, look at the nice guy in the mirror and ask "you wanna go?" (just remember that the ref breaks it up as soon as someone hits the ice ... so keep nice guy on his skates. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

i'm glad you've decided to do just that.

you mah bizzle, fo shizzle.

It takes me a little longer than others sometime, whippit, it really does.

I was told time and time again to take this approach. But maybe this is okay anyway, at least I know trying the "nice guy" approach didn't work, perhaps this is a way to try taking a firm aggressive approach as well.

Basically, I just need to make a few decisions now. First off, assuming I am contacting the OM, what to say. I don't just want to send him the PB letter. The things I said in my proposed note on the previous page of this thread I feel are very important for him to hear. I could probably say more but I know even that may need to be trimmed. So first, hopefully Cerri will be able to help me craft that properly.

Second, I think I would like to respond to W at the same time, with a date and time to meet for the car signing. I do not plan to mention to her that I emailed OM (she will find out soon enough).

I also would like to, at that time, somehow make her aware that I have spoke with her family after D-Day and that we have talked about the situation.

I'm not sure if I want to go into any detail or not in that email to W regarding the divorce or how I am against it, don't want to pay for it, etc. Cerri can help me decide that.

Now, the two e-mails, I predict will provide a 1-2 punch to the A. Why?

First of all: I am not positive, but fairly certain (95%) that W has not told OM close to the whole story about her relationship with me. Chances are that he does know know that W has spoken to me civilly many times over these past 6 months. More importantly, I do not believe OM knows at this point that I have been trying to save the M. I believe W may have told him I wanted her gone to help make him feel better about their A. So, this note will tell him otherwise.

Second of all: I do not believe W ever told her family that she is having an A, or that I am trying to save the M. Whatever story that she told them, or perhaps as little as she told them, they HAVE heard the full story from me already, months ago. But she does not KNOW this.

So, now she will have to deal with the fact that OM and her family both know the entire truth. Sure, she can lie her way out of it if she chooses, or face it, and she will most assuredly be VERY angry at me, but hey, at this point she wants a Dv anyway, so what do I have to lose?

At least I go out with the gloves on, fighting every way that I know how for my M. And at least the air is clear as far as I'm concerned and it's in the open and known that I did not give up on W and fought for the M until the very end.

I think she'll have trouble facing that.

ALS

Hi ALS:

I am glad you taking a proactive stance.

I don't know about the letter specifically to the OM, but a copy of a plan B letter to him I think will do the trick. I think the act of leaving as lovingly as possible with idea that you are still , for a time, open to discussions on reconciliation is the key. That is what your W and OM will see as they look back on their actions during their relationship.

Again, ALS I know you hurt and are dealing with the pain of rejection and frustration, but look into your heart and decide is your W what you really want for your future? Is it your pride/ego or remaining love for your W? You are the only one who knows.

CERRI

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Plan A is not about being a nice guy. Plan A is about ending the affair.... being a nice guy is part of that, but only part. That's why confronting and exposing are crucial elements of Plan A... and if you're not doing those things then you can't really say that you're doing Plan A.

Can you still do them in Plan B? Sure. It's not as clean, but with this divorce thing going on right now you have a good oppportunity to revisit those strategies. And then I would want to see you walk away. Not from the marriage, but from the hassle and the rehashing and the what iffing. At that point you've done what you can and you just have to see how it all plays out.

Did you see Harry Potter? How when they made some of their potions they had to let them sit and bubble for a while? That's what Plan B is about. Move on, get a life, have some fun.... and give the things you did in Plan A time to ferment and work. Even and especially the difficult things. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This was worth the price of admission today.

ALS one way or the other I truly wish you peace and happiness. I think that is what Cerri is saying as well.

It is late and I am tired.

All my best.

Jack

Jack,

A valid point for sure.

It seems the general opinion so far is that it's good I take a proactive stance, however everyone is basically telling me not to take TOO proactive a stance.

And I'm not SURE Cerri is still agreeing this is even a good idea. Cerri, if you are only agreeing because you think I need it for peace of mind, don't. If you think it can't do any good or may even do more harm than good then I don't want to do it.

Now, back to your point Jack. Okay, I do probably think TOO much, but here is what I see happening if I sent ONLY PB letter to OM, assuming that W has not told him anything about my reconcilation attempts so far (which I think is true):

"Oh, OM, my husband is just doing that out of desperation because I said I want the divorce. He hasn't cared about me since I left but now that he is losing me for good he is getting desperate and trying to ruin our relationship so he won't lose me."

I think it's important that OM know that this is not a new concept, this is a concept that has been ongoing since D-Day and that I never wanted the M to end, or for her to move out.

I can't be sure, but I do believe that the way she lured OM reluctantly into a stronger R with her after D-Day was by telling him that I was upset and angry (true) but also that I didn't love her or want the M anymore after what she did (untrue). I think OM's conscience needs to bother him and I think letting him know that he broke up this marriage (as well as that my W may not be as honest with him as she claims) are important, and the PB letter itself won't accomplish that.

Just my feelings on it.

As for my pride/ego vs. my love for W -- I know where you are coming from. I do love her still, but I know that to take her back she would need to change. And the worry I have is that she has not grown or changed at all yet. She would come back with her same depression issues, or probably even worse, now add in withdrawal from OM, probably having to quit her job, guilt, etc.

But, those are all things that come later. Like Cerri has always told me, ending the A is the #1 priority, and that's all I am focusing on at the moment. Something I should have done in Plan A, I was just too afraid and I regret that now.

ALS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ALostSoul:
It takes me a little longer than others sometime, whippit, it really does.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">don't apologize, my friend. you and i have seen similarities in each other before. i understand what you say here. my nature is to weigh what is best versus what is right and i will weigh them until i go crazy sometimes. it's almost like i'm talking myself into it. i suspect you're much the same. (if i believed in zodiac crap, i'd sepculate you were born in late may/early june or late march/early april.)

when it came to this i decided, for the most part, to toss away all i thought i knew and gave it to faith that mb would work. i figured, what the hell, i don't know nuthin' about affairs and the power of human behavior. so why not give in?

lastly ... you have nothing to regret. you did the best you could, gave the best of yourself. there's nothing to be ashamed of in that.

no matter, good things are in store for you because of this experience. of that i'm sure.

I was born in mid-June, does that count? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I have tried to an extent to do some of that with MB, doing what MB says and not what I feel, but at times I have not put my 100% faith in the techniques when I should have.

When it's all over, whatever happens, I won't have any regrets. Except for my actions after D-Day, which were just all over the place due to my emotions being a mess and the sudden bomb, I have been able to truly just give this by best.

Thanks as always for the continued support you have given me.

ALS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ALostSoul:
[QB]I was born in mid-June, does that count? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yes ... if it's before june 21, you're a gemini like i am. always seeing and identifying with both sides of every issue, are you? can easily place yourself into another person's shoes and make assumptions (accurate or otherwise) about how that person feels or thinks based on how you would feel or think? sound like you? again, if i believed in that stuff, that's what i'd speculate. but i don't really. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

and thanks for popping in to my thread this morning. i do appreciate it far more than i let on sometimes. she's been home now for four days. going well so far, but much to go still. i'm alternately excited and scared sh!tless ... but i guess that's normal.

whip

p.s. drop me an email sometime -- see my sig. i'd love to see your web site ... i run qa for an internet company here in co and i'm always in search of neato stuff (whether corp or personal).

Yep, I would be a Gemini. That is strange how I do exhibit a lot of those traits, then again, I am sure there are many non-Geminis that ALSO have those same traits.

Glad to hear you are doing well, Whippit. Very happy for you, I know you deserve this and I look forward to hearing about you and your W being happy.

I'll drop you a mail.

I remembered something today and I thought I'd share a very interesting story with you all regarding the whole alien abduction/WS concept.

In the past W had occasionally woken up disoriented in the middle of the night from nightmares. The week of D-Day, W and I still slept in the same bed, and TWICE, she woke screming with bad nightmares.

I would always try to wake her up as she would still be sleeping and yelling out. However, both times this happened ever D-Day, the first thing she said as she was starting to come out of it was a very shocked-sounding "Who ARE you?!?!!?" to me. It was very off-putting.

But the more I think about it, maybe it was just my W's clone that the aliens replaced her with not knowing who she was lying next to. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

ALS

Another passing thought I had today, does anyone here ever worry about the divorce stigma?

See, before this happened to me, and before I found this place, I am guilty of something -- I was guilty of looking at someone after knowing they were divorced and thinking, "Wow, what did they do wrong that they couldn't stay married?" Or, perhaps thinking it must have been THEIR fault or there must be something wrong with having a relationship with them since they couldn't hold a marriage together.

Now, naturally, me being in the position I am, I have learned that's certainly not always the case. There are people like me who have tried and tried and even learned from this process. But I still worry that, should I join the ranks of the divorced, that I might be looked at in the same way by others. Like there must be something wrong with me if I failed at marriage.

I mean many of you have to admit, you immediately would draw a different inference about a person if you saw their status listed as "divorced" vs. "single" wouldn't you?

Just a thought really, I know it's not related to anything else we've been talking about, just something I figured I'd throw out there.

ALS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Another passing thought I had today, does anyone here ever worry about the divorce stigma?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, because it is such a common occurrence that a M that has survived for decades is now the anomaly.

it's a really good question. the notion has crossed my mind. coffeeman is right, it's so common that i don't think that anyone would give it a second thought. you and i are fairly close in age and one of the things we have in common is that we likely have parents who are divorced at least once (my wife's parents are divorced; mine are divorced -- mom three times, dad just once).

i've spoken to many of my married friends who also have divorced parents and one of the things we have in common is the desire to have just one marriage for life. i think most people who are married -- or want to be -- have that goal, but for people in our generation i think it's of greater concern than, say, baby boomers, whose parents or grandparents started their families during or in the wake of the depression. for the boomers, they wanted their kids to have a better life -- financially speaking -- than they had growing up. married for life was a given. we, on the other hand, also want a better life for our kids than we had, but we define that as having two parents married for life. of course, this is all anecdotal; i'm probably a crackpot.

Yeah, I guess for me it's bad because my family does NOT have a strong history of divorce in it at all -- Some VERY long marriages for grandpartents on both sides (never divorced, still alive and married) and my parents never divorced, nor did W's (which is why I am surprised that she takes it so lightly, but part of it MIGHT have to do with her lack of any religious beliefs).

So, I guess that's where I got the divorced stigma from. I never knew anyone who was divorced before.

No other updates on my situation with the letter to OM, I am sort of eager to send it, but waiting until Cerri can give me some guidance, and I think she is taking herself a few much-deserved days off. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

ALS

No other updates on my situation with the letter to OM, I am sort of eager to send it, but waiting until Cerri can give me some guidance, and I think she is taking herself a few much-deserved days off. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Ohhhhh..... how I wish, but no..... just trying to catch up with the weekend crises. Sure am glad there is no regular NL due this week!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

C

Wow, I'd hate to see what some of the crises are, I thought I was in bad enough shape! I know my last email was a nightmarish length, I never learned to shorten them up, did I? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Thanks for peeking in, C.

ALS

<small>[ June 02, 2003, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: ALostSoul ]</small>

Is there ANY way you could get an anullment if it gets to that point?

Ah, Kily, nice to hear from you -- Another person I have deluged with email. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I researched this a while back, actually, I believe we are past the point, timewise, to get an annullment. I think annullments are usually granted for very short-term marriages, not ones that have lasted almost 2 years. Even though it only took a year for her to have the A, which was still probably too late for an annullment, we're now on the books married for almost 2 years.

I wish some lawyers read these forums!

ALS

Bummer...

Well then, I know that you will probably HATE this route, but how about Fraud on her part. You could possibly look into the fact that she was only married to you for a small time frame. Immigration has laws about people marrying just for residency status. I think there is a minimum amount of time that she HAS to remain married to you for her status to be legal. You may be able to gain an anullment THAT way, but it would mean getting her potentially deported...

Due to the immigration thing and stuff, yes, there are probably a lot more options we could take. A lot more. Lawyers would certainly need to be brought in for that stuff.

But an ugly court battle won't make her want me back. It won't save my marriage. It'll sure punish her for having an A, yes. But the end result will still be the same: divorce.

Not only that, but the legal fees alone, plus whatever she decides to then fight for, will all be lost. Thousands and thousands of dollars and a lot of sleepless nights, but I see nothing for me to gain from it.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if I'd be responsible for all the legal fees myself, even hers, the way the court system seems to favor females, especially those with little to no finances.

I just see no reason for it unless I am willing to spend a ton of money just to make her life hell (and mine too) for another year or so.

ALS

Religious or civil annulment?

There's a difference?

I didn't even know.

Basically I guess whatever it would take for her to get her name back and for her to get the car and her stuff.

But really at that point what's the difference between and annullment and a divorce in the grand scheme?

ALS