Anullment means the marriage never happened. Then the "stigmata" of being divorced wouldn't be an issue for you. That's why I asked about it in the first place...

I'll see if I can find whether or not there is a difference and what it is. Generally annulments are sought by Catholics who want to remarry and still be able to fully participate in their church. I could probably get one in heartbeat, but I don't have an overwhelming desire to return to my Catholic roots. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C

This is what I found about civil annulments in your state:

~~~~~~~

§3303. Annulment of void and voidable marriages.
(a) General rule.--In all cases where a supposed or alleged marriage has been contracted which is void or voidable under this title or under applicable law, either party to the supposed or alleged marriage may bring an action in annulment to have it declared void in accordance with the procedures provided by this part and prescribed by general rules.

(b) Common-law marriage.--In the case of a purported common-law marriage where a party was under 18 years of age, a parent or guardian of the minor may bring a declaratory judgment proceeding during the party's minority to have the marriage declared void.

§3304. Grounds for annulment of void marriages.
(a) General rule.--Where there has been no confirmation by cohabitation following the removal of an impediment, the supposed or alleged marriage of a person shall be deemed void in the following cases:

Where either party at the time of such marriage had an existing spouse and the former marriage had not been annulled nor had there been a divorce except where that party had obtained a decree of presumed death of the former spouse.
Where the parties to such marriage are related within the degrees of consanguinity prohibited by section 1304(e) (relating to restrictions on issuance of license).
Where either party to such marriage was incapable of consenting by reason of insanity or serious mental disorder or otherwise lacked capacity to consent or did not intend to consent to the marriage.
Where either party to a purported common-law marriage was under 18 years of age.

(b) Procedures.--In all cases of marriages which are void, the marriage may be annulled as set forth in section 3303 (relating to annulment of void and voidable marriages) or its invalidity may be declared in any collateral proceeding.

§3305. Grounds for annulment of voidable marriages.
(a) General rule.--The marriage of a person shall be deemed voidable and subject to annulment in the following cases:

Where either party to the marriage was under 16 years of age unless the marriage was expressly authorized by the court.
Where either party was 16 or 17 years of age and lacked the consent of parent or guardian or express authorization of the court and has not subsequently ratified the marriage upon reaching 18 years of age and an action for annulment is commenced within 60 days after the marriage ceremony.
Where either party to the marriage was under the influence of alcohol or drugs and an action for annulment is commenced within 60 days after the marriage ceremony.
Where either party to the marriage was at the time of the marriage and still is naturally and incurably impotent unless the condition was known to the other party prior to the marriage.
Where one party was induced to enter into the marriage due to fraud, duress, coercion or force attributable to the other party and there has been no subsequent voluntary cohabitation after knowledge of the fraud or release from the effects of fraud, duress, coercion or force.

(b) Status of voidable marriage.--In all cases of marriages which are voidable, either party to the marriage may seek and obtain an annulment of the marriage but, until a decree of annulment is obtained from a court of competent jurisdiction, the marriage shall be valid. The validity of a voidable marriage shall not be subject to attack or question by any person if it is subsequently confirmed by the parties to the marriage or if either party has died.

HI ALS:

My the mind is wandering today.

I don't think there is any stigma connected to divorce today. There is too large a percentage divorcing. I have never heard of a civil annulment, I'm glad Cerri was quck on the switch. I was involved in a Catholic annullment for an old girl friend. It was fairly straight forward and after the fee fairly simple.

I think that in your case the divorce and the reasons for it will make you more of a sympathetic and compassionate person ALS. To me it would be like marrying a virgin, most would prefer experience and once you deal with your pain and process your M, people will see how much you have grown and learned from it and it will make you an even better match in my opinion.

Peace to you my friend

Jack

Jack, that's a good point really. From where I am sitting now, annulment isn't an option.

I just want to let everyone know, that yes, I just sweatily and nervously sent 3 emails off tonight -- One to OM with some personal words and the PB letter, one to W's family with personal words and the PB letter, and one to W letting her know I sent PB letter to family (OM will tell her about his soon enough) as well as with a date/time to meet her for the car title transfer.

Let the mayhem begin (though perhaps not until the weekend, I think they are away on vacation together this week).

ALS

ALS:

You go, guy! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Don your asbestos underwear, if it hasn't been collected by the hazmat crews already. It could get hot out there!

Seriously, I think you did the right thing. She'll be angry as all get out, but the truth is never really wrong, is it? This isn't being vindictive, either.

my paradigm (that's 20 cents).
-ol' 2long

You were the inspiration, 2long. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Actually, it's weird, I feel sort relieved, happy, nervous, sick, and scared all at the same time.

You hit the nail on the head. First off I had nothing to LOSE in sending them since she was ready for the divorce and I really felt it that time. So the worst I can still get, is, well...divorced.

Also, nothing I wrote was even remotely false. Everything was honest and true. And as mad as she wants to be (and she will be, for my "interfering with her life" I predict), she will not be able to say that anything I said was not the truth.

There is no doubt in my mind that this will anger her, and it's likely that once everyone has seen their mail, she'll attack me in some way. But my plan is NC until we meet up for the title transfer. Which is over 2 weeks away.

Will keep you posted, but it may be almost a week until I have any more news.

ALS

*golf clap for als*

nice job.

btw ... what did you say to om and your w's p's? it's okay if you don't want to answer.

<small>[ June 02, 2003, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: whippit ]</small>

Thanks whip.

Actually if you surf back a page or two, the message went to OM pretty much just like it read there (plus the PB letter itself was added). So it was very very honest, open, and basically included a lot of what I have been wanting to say to the guy for these past 7 months.

I have been emailing her family regularly so I basically just included the letter and a very short paragraph that explained to them that W was pushing hard for divorce, and that I was trying hard to get her to reconsider that, that I did not want a divorce. They have known about this and the A from me for months though so it's no news to them.

The sparks will really fly though when W finds out that they know about the A as I do not beleive she ever told them herself. So when she finds out they've known from me (and all along) as well as that I contacted the OM (and also that I don't want to split the cost of a divorce) she may explode. I'm glad I don't have to be around when she learns all that stuff.

I'm a little concerned that her parents will be upset that I let W know that we have been talking all along, as they asked me not to reveal that -- But heck with it, I am tired of them avoiding talking about it with her because they are scared or ashamed or whatever. They let her do whatever she wants and look where it got her. I frown on their parenting skills in this regard. I think a good set of parents would at least try and talk to their daughter about it and understand why she is leaving her marriage. They just avoided it completely and refused to even ask about the A. They may still do it, but it'll be a big elephant in the room for them now.

At least I'm pretty sure I'm safe from her wrath until the end of the weekend, unless she's not on vacation with OM as I suspect (though I'm rarely wrong when it comes to what she's up to). But this will be a firestorm, I predict.

ALS

gotcha ... i didn't know if what you told om had changed at all. you were a little undecided at that point.

nice work all around.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by whippit:
<strong>
nice work all around.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ditto. It's one thing to know or to have opinions on what to do when you're in the position of being the BS. It's quite another to hold your fear and misgivings at bay and to take the leap into doing those things. ALS has done wonderfully, far far better than many. Whatever the outcome of his work, he will be the better for it.

C

Awww, shucks. Thanks.

Well if it wasn't for Cerri's honest and unflinching advice, as well as the opinions of many here, I wouldn't have made it this far, so thanks to you all.

I decided that I needed to trust in the tools that MB provides and, like Cerri says, believe in the patterns that have been known to work in the past. My W has been following the "WS script" pattern since day one, pretty much, almost textbook, so I wanted to follow all the steps that a BS should as well.

Even if my aggressive stance on this doesn't change anything, I will never regret that I did this, as I now don't need to go through my life wondering what the OM or my W's family or even my W may have thought my opinions on the marriage were. Now the truth has finally been told.

Anyone else who might be reading this, take it from someone who's been there -- As hard as it may seem to take that step and confront everyone in your spouse's life regarding the affair, it's very cleansing to let everyone know the truth, that you have been trying to save your marriage and still want to do that. And even if I get anger or an even stronger desire from W to divorce after this, I know that the seeds have been planted and that this will be something that hangs over the A for as long as it lasts.

ALS

Dear ALS:

I am happy you feel good about your decision. I don't think it is ever bad to clear the air so all have the facts.

I think you are right fasten your chin strap it should be interesting and there is no real loss to you, unless she rethinks the growth in equity in your home while married. Still think you made the a good decision for yourself.

All my best

Jack

Hey ALS!

Good for you. I know how difficult it was for you to get to this point. God is now in the driver's seat. The question is: Is WS ready to listen to Him."

I know in my heart that you will do well either way. I'm rooting for you still...so just keep doing what you're doing.

The only other thing I can offer that you haven't thought about is an "intervention". I know she is not an alcoholic, but with her issues, as her H you do have a right to go this route. I'd sincerely think about it. It might be a bit extreme, but I think that if she is crying out for help, it may be a way to do that and maybe save your marriage too.

Just rambling thoughts...

Confronting and exposing are the intervention methods for infidelity.

I was just thinking in terms of the depression and stuff behind the A. I was just thinking about whether or not it would be something he could pursuit. I know in my own case, I was spiraling SO badly that I just needed something to ground me. It amazed me when I looked back on it that not a single person bothered to call someone professional to help me. I guess in this situation it would be seen as manipulation. My concern is that she is lost and doesn't know how to cry out...

Jack --

Thanks, I agree, it was good to clear the air regardless of the outcome. Her natural next reaction will be to fight back, but she doesn't really have a leg to stand on, if she REALLY wants to fight it out in a divorce she has a lot more to lose than to gain. She may be upset at first but in the end, she knows that a quiet, no fault divorce will be easiest on her (and me as well, at least financially).

Kily --

It was tough to get here but I'm glad I got here and I'm even glad of the steps I took to get here. I feel like I have now exhausted all options but tried everything that is known to save the marriage. At this point, I now must back off and just see what happens.

Kily, as you have told me many times you and my W share so many experiences and emotions and have acted similarly through all this, so you know that right now she does need some help. But unfortunately she has closed herself off to that, and is allowing OM to meet as many needs as she can. But I think you and I both know that won't last forever, and OM won't be able to help her fight off her depression forever.

I really do want to help her, but right now, I'm the LAST person she wants any help or advice from. Heck, even when we were married when I suggested a professional or even meds she got into a HUGE fight with me telling me she didn't have any problems and I didn't care and was trying to push her problems on someone else or mute them with medicine.

And worse yet, no one else thinks she even has any problems, really. Her family either doesn't know or doesn't seem to care, their solution is let her do whatever she wants. And I'm sure OM doesn't care or doesn't see that side of her. Yet.

I hate to see her suffer, but then again maybe she doesn't when she is with OM, but I don't feel that she will be happy forever until she learns to deal with a lot of the issues of her past.

ALS

Something else also dawned upon me when I was writing that note to OM, by the way.

One thing I learned after I confronted him at D-Day from W was that OM felt horrible about what happened, because his father cheated on his mother and it ended their marriage.

So really, it's pretty easy for OM to understand how I feel about him. I feel the same way about him as he feels about the woman that his father cheated on his mother with. And I can't imagine that he thinks too highly of her.

Put in that context, I bet he might see things a little differently.

ALS

Perhaps....

With this added detail, I believe that he is playing out his childhood wounds in your W. Sometimes we need to recreate the event that caused the pain in order to understand it and heal...

Hard to say HOW he will react.

OM wrote back today, it wasn't at all what I expected, but in my interest of continued honesty, I am going to continue to be as honest as I can here. This post may actually scare some of you off, but I feel that since this place is at least anonymous, I can share some things that I haven't told many others, and one thing that I am very, very ashamed of in my life, but that plays an important part in OM's response, and I want you all to hear it.

A few months after we met, I got W pregnant. At time time we had been dating only a few months. I did not take the news well. I panicked. And I said things to W I was not proud of. I knew the decision was hers but I will admit that I did say things in the hopes I could coerce her into having an abortion. Again, I am really not proud of this, believe me. I look back and I just hate myself for it. At the time, like I said, we probably had only spent 4 or 5 weekends together, we were long distance dating and she was 8 hours away. I was a rookie with relationships and just plain stupid.

Anyway, she did decide to have the abortion, and told me she would have done that anyway, but this girl was scared and understandably so and didn't know what to do. She was upset at me for the way I handled it and rightfully so. The right thing for me was to support her in any decision, be there for her, heck, drive right up and comfort her, and I did none of that. I was a total idiot.

I eventually did drive up and take her to the clinic, but I didn't even walk in with her, I waited in town and then took her to my place afterwards. W seemed relieved after it was over, and we rarely talked about it after it happened, though from time to time I could sense it still bothered her. And since then, she has carried the way I handled that incident, admittedly horribly, with her. And she holds that against me to this day.

Remember, this was 3 months after we started dating. After that we continued to date. She moved in with me and lived here a year. We got married. What I can't understand now is that if what I did then was so horrible to her (which it was), why would she keep dating me and agree to marry me??? I could certainly understand if she had told me that she was leaving me after that incident, but instead it actually seemed to bring us closer, in that we started to take more care of each other afterwards.

The other stuff you will see OM say here is true. When I found out W was having an A, like I said, I LBed and tried to make it hard for her to leave the house. We fought over what she could take from the house when she moved out. I am not proud of that either. Basically, a lot of what OM says is true, though it sounds like the stuff he heard about the abortion was exaggerated a bit to make me sound even worse, it WAS the worst thing I ever did to W.

Anyway, that being said, here is OM's response (I had to censor a couple words):

I appreciate your honesty in all this. But there are a few points that
I feel that I need to make, considering how dedicated you claim to be to
W's happiness.
She has told me of a few times where her opinion wasn't heard, and her
happiness not taken into account by you. The biggest example that I can
think of is when she had her abortion. As she tells it, you "told" her that
she had to get an abortion (not the most convincing way to win her
happiness), and then "told" her that you weren't going along with her to
have it performed. That's a pretty shi&&y thing to do, especially from a
"devoted husband". Now, I don't know all the circumstances surrounding this
incident, but I do know that, even as a friend, you should have listened to
her and supported her, and, most certainly, gone along with her. If just as
a friend.
Also, how were you contributing to her happiness when she wanted her
things from your house when she decided that she was leaving? You had her
fight for a f*&cking matress and boxspring? You realize that, since she's
still "legally your wife", she can, at any time, have a locksmith let her
into "her" home and get her things? Instead, you at first denied her the
personal items that were rightfully hers. She was leaving you regardless if
I was in the picture or not, so don't claim that I enabled her, and don't
deny her the personal items that are hers.
I understand that things between you two slowly deteriorated over a
period of several months, and understand your desire to try to heal the
wounds that were caused. I just think that maybe you could have prevented
all this by being a decent guy from the start. She just wants to be happy,
and that's all I want for her as well. I told her in the beginning that if
she thought that I could bring her happiness, then that's who she sould be
with. But I told her to be sure that she couldn't be happy with you before
she committed to me. Don't think that you're the only one to suffer over
all this. But she has made her decision; please respect it. I am sorry
that her and I got involved in the way that we did, and I admit that the
timing was bad, but she is happy now. Such is life. If I could have had it
another way, with no hard feelings or any bad blood, that's what I would
have wanted. But things change, things happen. I didn't break up your
marriage; you did a fine job of that all by yourself. And that is where you
should place your blame.

I am really not happy about it, it really sounds like my sending him the email or the PB letter didn't affect him at all. Maybe it will take time. But regardless, I think that none of this justifies his actions. Or hers.

The #1 OP excuse is there - "She was leaving you anyway." But my response to that would be it doesn't make adultery right. You wait until the marriage ends before you get involved. And he doesn't think he enabled anything. Of course he did.

I really feel compelled to respond to this but I am going to do whatever Cerri says. It really makes me sick the guy even wrote back, and to see how proud he is and how he feels like the "white knight" that saved my W. I mean yes, she was unhappy, but the key incident he cites there happened 3 years ago, and the other stuff only happened because he started seeing my W!

Opinions, flames, whatever, welcome.

Ugh. This hurts. I see in his words how W feels about me, and she just sees me as a guy who made her miserable, I guess. I can't say I like this guy too much, but I also can't disagree with much of what was said either, I suppose.

ALS

<small>[ June 03, 2003, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: ALostSoul ]</small>