Whippit,

She's been asking for a divorce since December but I have had control because she can only go no-fault.

She still will never file with a lawyer because she can't afford to do so. I could strike back by doing so but I have much to lose as well.

I could continue to make her wait, she can file no-fault without a lawyer on her own after 2 years of her living apart are up, but at that point she could also go after home equity and other things that she is not now.

So in a way, she HAS been asking for the divorce and basically unable to file for financial reasons. Though I suppose if I were to respond (even though I won't) I could just ask her why she didn't file for her own divorce if she wanted it so bad.

ALS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
I wouldn't necessarily believe that her family loves the lyin' sack of... ...but they might. Who knows? Who cares?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i wouldn't believe much of what she says.

is it possible her family visited her or vice versa? besides, you've indicated her fam is a horde of conflict avoiders, no? sounds like they would tell her anything to avoid her upsetting her.

i seem to recall you agreeing to the no-fault about three months ago. what's taken her so long? that's what i was referring to ... she sat on it. why? you didn't stop her from mailing it or dropping it off at the house? she's deflecting, too. again this is somehow your fault after you lobbed the ball right back into her court.

ALS it's never a good thing to beleive and rely that your in-laws will support you instead of their daughter. Despite all their initial assurances to the contrary, blood is still thicker than water. Most parents will support their child(ren) even if s/he has been indicted for murder.

<small>[ June 04, 2003, 07:16 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

That's true, whippit.

First off, her family IS a bunch of conflict avoiders. They will definitely go with whatever W likes. Whether they like OM better than I will never probably be known, they were just being agreeable to make W feel better. Makes me sick to think that there are parents like that, but there ya go. Disappointing. Then again, I guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, either. If W was so easily led astray, I can see where she got her morals from then.

I hate to say it, but I wish her and OM misery. I really do. Whatever it takes for her to realize that she is making a mistake. I honestly think she doesn't see it, and worry she never will as long as everyone agrees with her and supports her.

That is true about the no-fault, after I sent the PB letter though she really started wanting it again. Before that she was just spinning her wheels, she had asked if we could talk more and was ready to do so, at least, it seemed that way. After she didn't contact me about that I sent the PB letter, that's when all the urgent need for Dv started again.

The MB plans are a guideline but they can't work 100% of the time. I am likely just one of those cases. I can say I am happy I found this place and tried, but that doesn't make the entire experience and what was done to me hurt any less right now, either. That's the sad part. But there's nothing you can do about that, I guess.

ALS

I have considered the whole citizenship thing, TMCM. Once the papers are signed, of course.

I mean, I'm not sure what she's saying here, but if she was never really happy with me, I'm sure it can be reasoned that she might not deserve to be here.

I hate to play hardball like that, but I'm pretty hurt right now. Chances are it's not as easy as a phone call, and also since I did sign all her paperwork and we basically got everything legalized, there is nothing more I can do, but I'll look into it.

In my opinion, she really doesn't deserve to stay in the country, at least not on my name, for what she's done.

ALS

Meanwhile, she won't stop calling...

Is this some very strong need of hers for me to hear her voice telling me off or something?

ALS

turn the machine on and go have those drinks. the hotel idea from 2long is a good one, too.

{{{{{{{{ALS}}}}}}}}

from W and I!

First off, nice response letter to OM! I did like the changes from whipit or 2long, I don't remember who. I would further edit it down to saying "OM, thanks for your response and thank you for sharing your opinion with me." Thats it. Leave it at that. Like Cerri told W and I, you cannot make others think what you want. All you can do is present the facts to them and let them come to their own conclusions.

You said- Maybe OM does make her happy and she is better off with him. Sure he makes her happy, they are only together to rip on you and share the good times together. Have OM deal with some of the things you and WW have been through and he may sing a different tune!

As far as her parents meeting OM, remember how I keep telling you how similar our stories are? My IL's met OM and also liked him! They also did nothing to stop the A! In fact it was my IL's that were pushing W to file for Dv. Don't worry too much about the IL's. Drop them from your world. If my W is OK, she can tell you more similarities in our stories but I will stop for now.

As far as you being a bad guy- Yeah I am sure you are an awful person! Your only failing was to not love your W in the ways she was looking for. You were the best H you knew how, it may not have been what she was looking for but that is up to her to speak out. We all make mistakes, learn from them and move on.

For Gods sake, son, turn off the darn ringers!!!!!!!!

Take the Dv papers from her if she presents them. But DO NOT sign them until YOU are ready! Give it some time. To me, it doesn't matter if you are holding her back, that is just your W trying to project her guilt away from her and on to you. By making you to be the heavy here, she is saying she has done nothing wrong. Only sign the papers when you are ready.

Good luck ALS. I am going to sign off and let my W (imready2try) say her piece.

STTSI

Hi ALS - Hugs to you from the two of us!

Sorry to hear things are on a downward turn for you right now. Like H said, our stories ARE very similar. My only suggestion - go stay with some friends for a few days. Turn off any cell, pager, phone anything. DON'T talk to her now. People DO NOT make good decisions when they are in the heat of the moment! Your W, as well as YOU, need some time to let things cool down a bit.

In all honesty, about the IL's though - my parents knew, met, even lied to H about meeting the OM. Yes, my parents even liked the jerk. They are the ones who pushed for the Dv from H, and they are the ones who told me that OM could potentially be better for me. WOW! What a revelation I never knew about MY OWN parents <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Kind of sad if you think about it - BUT, parents will go to whatever extreme necessary to protect their children. I say protect in this case b/c they thought that the OM could be better. My H's thoughts of my parents decreased greatly when he found out that they knew about the A.

Now, at the present, my H has no relationship with my parents. (that falls in line with POJA) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> And we are okay with that. It will be a long time b4 they have good repoire (i can't spell) again. Now, with your W's family. YOU have to know that CoffeeMan is right when he said that Blood is thicker than water. You cannot do anything to change their opinion of you. They will believe what your W tells them. For that I am sorry. It really sucks if you think about it, they were presented with the facts from you and the lies from your W, and they choose to believe the lies from your W.

I am really sorry that you are going through this! If I were you - I would definatley go for the drink (make it a double <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ), take a few days and go stay with some friends - and then DON'T MEET YOUR W until the 20th(?).

{{{{{hugs}}}}} to you ALS - get some rest!
Imready2try!

You will be in our thoughts and prayers!!!

I missed a couple earlier messages during my crisis last night.

W continued to call through 11 PM, I disconnected the phone so I didn't hear it ring anymore, I only saw the caller ID box light up when she called, that's how I know she kept trying.

She also send me an instant message that said "I know you are home, so pick up the phone." This was all AFTER she sent me that email.

It's funny, she said everything she needed to say in that email, yet for some reason she still really felt a need to yell at me in person or on the phone too I guess.

2long -- you suggested I let her leave a message, but I would have listened to it. I'm too curious. So I just removed it from the equation.

Whippit --, like you saw, she was NOT calling to talk about reconciliation. She just wanted a fight I guess. It bums me out that you like the second response to OM as well, I REALLY want to send that now! But I might have W come after me for "harassment" or something. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I suppose after her own email response it's sort of a moot point anyway. I don't think defending myself further to OM will change W's mind (though it may at least make him understand that he's scummy).

I will do whatever Cerri says is best, though, bottom line.

TMCM is right, blood is thicker than water and I have to remember that of course her parents are going to support whatever she claims makes her happy.

STTSI and imready2try --

So you like the response letter to OM too! Drat! I'm not allowed to send it. Sparks would again fly, my W might shoot me if I sent that one...hehe...She "warned" me to stop writing him as you saw last night. I don't see any legal ramifications to responding to his email to me, though if Cerri thinks no good can come of it I will refrain.

Thanks for the reassuring words. OM may make her happier than me but it can't be fairly tale land. At some point, she will have to deal with some tough stuff with him, too. But maybe he will handle it better than me, or she will handle it better knowing what she has learned from this relationship with me, too.

I do resent the fact that the notes yesterday from her and OM act like it's all my fault and I did everything wrong. That hurts that they feel that way. I guess they have spent so much time together now and are so delusional about it in their world that I have become the villain.

Interesting stuff about your W and the IL's though, at least I see I'm not the only one who had to deal with that. Who knows if they heard lies or truth from OM and WW. What scares me is she may have just said "Mom, Dad, I was unhappy with ALS so I started sleeping with this guy -- He makes me a lot happier." and they said "Oh, okay." They may have heard the truth and still been okay with that.

I agree about not talking to her for at LEAST a few days (probably not until the 20th). There's no reason to say anything between us that she couldn't say in email.

Imreadytotry, you see the response from W back there -- Were you that tweaked as well after the PB letters went out? Is that how you felt? Did you ever say such horrible stuff? Did you try for a fight with STTSI?

ALS

ALS-

First, don't buy thte bull. You've just torn open a beehive and the swarm is angry. What did you expect to happen? Your letter accomplished exactly what it needed to. You upset the apple cart.

Your W is trying to sell you more crap again to justify her actions. Your believinig it all...why?

Honestly, her parents reactions aren't exactly how she paints them. She WANTS you to hurt because you hurt her.

Why do you think that she came over in a fury? Why was it so critical for her to make demands that you leave her alone? She's loosing control of her world because you aren't playing her game. Your Plan-b is working. You're shaking things up. I agree with the others. Turn your answering machine back on and change the message to: "Leave a message unless you are W" and let it go. Go Dark- NO MORE CONTACT at all. No matter how much you want to know things, do not contact.

She w ants you to get angry back at her so she can justify her actioins. She wants you to yell and become manipulative and all of that so she can say: "See, he's doing everything he can to make my life hell". By going dark, you are stating that this isn't true.

Also, the next time she comes over, call OM and tell him that she is there harassing YOU. Let him know that she now wis HIS and that he needs to keep her away from you. Watch how quickly her tune will change...

Hope you aren't hung over today <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hugs...

Also-

If you decide to send something to OM again, I would send something like:

"As I last stated, I wanted to do everything to make my marriage work. You will believe what you want to believe so I will not go there any longer. W wants you, so I retreat. She has been trying to contact me against my wishes. Please keep her away from me."

<small>[ June 04, 2003, 06:50 AM: Message edited by: kily ]</small>

If she continues to harass you then consider writting her a short e-mail stating to her that 'If you continue to harass me, I will have no choice but to resort to the authorities including the Bureau of Immigration and Citizenship'. Maybe that will make her think before she acts.

<small>[ June 04, 2003, 07:17 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Kily --

First, don't buy thte bull. You've just torn open a beehive and the swarm is angry. What did you expect to happen? Your letter accomplished exactly what it needed to. You upset the apple cart.

A beehive! What a great analogy. I assume a night's sleep has calmed her down and the storm is over. So as long as I remain in NC I'm hoping it can stay that way from her end as well, at least until I need to see her in...let's see...16 days.

I suppose this is what I expected to happen. I certainly didn't think she would read the letters and come running home, but I guess I was also a little shocked at the boldness of both her and the OM in their responses to me as well.

I guess the more I ponder it, of course I know her opinions of me are wrong, but they are her opinions, and to her she is absolutely correct. I don't think she's saying things to hurt me anymore, I think she's saying this stuff because she actually believes it. And if she sees me in such a negative light, that certainly doesn't bode well. So no, I don't believe the crap she's selling me, but you know what? I believe that SHE does.

It is pretty apparent that I touched a nerve to get her calling and then into the car and driving all the way over to the house and then calling again until she went to bed, huh? She'll calm down. I still have the caller ID so I can answer the phone when I choose. Still not sure I want to turn the machine on and give her the chance to leave a hurtful message. Anything she needs to say can be done in e-mail as she's already stated.

She wants you to get angry back at her so she can justify her actioins. She wants you to yell and become manipulative and all of that so she can say: "See, he's doing everything he can to make my life hell". By going dark, you are stating that this isn't true.

No way will I get angry back at her, I never really did and she always hated that. I'm very calm, even in confrontations, for the most part. You make a good point in that going dark is a way to show her I'm not doing this, however I also feel that the damage is already done in that respect -- Evidenced in the fact she stated in her return email to me that I obviously don't care for her happiness at all because I won't let her go, and that I continue to keep her from that.

Here's a question for you and everyone -- Should she persist, and somehow get to me in person (catching me at the house, for example)...How do I handle that? If she's screaming or being aggressive, I assume I calmly tell her I don't want to fight, ask her to leave, and tell her I'll see her on the 20th? If she is calm and seems to want to talk civilly, do I let her in and oblige? I need to remember I'm in Plan B here so of course I don't want to see her. But if I can't avoid it, I guess I'm just wondering how you all think I should handle that.

TMCM --

I don't think going the whole threatening her citizenship thing is going to be necessary, at least I hope not -- I LBed bigtime when I did that after D-Day (again, just another stupid ploy to try and win her back). I actually did some research and don't think there's anything that can legally be done anyway, since the marriage was entered into in good faith by us both.

I can though, I believe, down the line, when her next approval process rolls around, disapprove in writing (I believe she needs my signature or at least it would HELP her). But we'll see how she handles this whole process here and how I'm feeling when that day comes before I get into immigration issues.

ALS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ALostSoul:
... Should she persist, and somehow get to me in person (catching me at the house, for example)...How do I handle that? If she's screaming or being aggressive, I assume I calmly tell her I don't want to fight, ask her to leave, and tell her I'll see her on the 20th? If she is calm and seems to want to talk civilly, do I let her in and oblige? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i say you handle both of them the same, as something that starts calm can end not-so-calm. stick to the plan, stan.

ALS,

It's so strange that you posted to me on EN today....because yesterday, I posted to you. Faith told me you had quite the thread over here and boy! was she right. It took me quite a while to tromp through this tome! Finally, I am caught up and I am sorry to hear that this has not gone so well inspite of your dedication. It appears that cerri has been the inspirational coach that I have heard....I am thankful that you have had so much support. Thanks for remembering me, I will always wish the best for you.

As far as this latest response from the OM....it must be upsetting. I don't know whether cerri will want you to respond at all. Somehow, I think she won't. Inspite of that....I have drafted a response....just in case. It may not fit or be of use...but here it is.

OM,

The number one rationalization for people who date someone married is that "they would have left anyway", and that's a very comfortable way to think, because the alternative....they contributed to the demise of the marriage, the truth....is hard to swallow. I won't deny any of things you threw in my face. I was never a perfect husband, or even a perfect friend....nor was I a monster. I am just a regular guy who made mistakes, but loved my wife.

How I handled the abortion brings me shame to this day, but contrary to what you may have heard, our relationship only got stronger after that incident. We continued dating and she agreed to become my wife. I will be sorry until the day I die that my immaturity hurt her at that time, and yet I know it is an old hurt ressurrected conveniently to justify a new one.

It's easy for anyone to pass judgement on the actions of others, but who knows what stupid acts even you might be guilty of if faced with the loss of the most important thing in your life....your wife. Things like fights over mattresses and other ridiculous delaying tactics are acts of desperation by betrayed spouses who are demoralized and confused. I am not proud of them, but I never demonized my wife....just acted stupidly.

It's far easier to trump up charges of mistreatment than to face any personal responsiblity....I understand that....but they are hollow rationalizations that I know are not deserving of infidelity or divorce. The truth is that my wife became involved with you, and instead of waiting until she had tried to save this marriage, or ended it, she made me out to be a monster.....because then it was easy to break her vows. And I suppose it was also easier for you to believe I deserved this, to salve your own conscience for failing to the honorable thing and wait for a divorce before pursuing my wife. You can still do the honorable thing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think going the whole threatening her citizenship thing is going to be necessary, at least I hope not -- I LBed bigtime when I did that after D-Day (again, just another stupid ploy to try and win her back). I actually did some research and don't think there's anything that can legally be done anyway, since the marriage was entered into in good faith by us both.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If she is a legal resident, then I beg to differ with you because if she gets arrested for a crime, she could indeed face deportation.

Well.....after all of that....I wasn't caught up anyway! LOL No matter. It appears you won't be sending anything anyway.

ALS.....I sorry I have to be gone this morning!!! I'll be back later this afternoon.

Do not respond to either of them. They are, as someone put it so well last week, "following the script." The fact that you are getting such virulent angry responses tells me that you hit a pretty sensitive nerve for both of them. They know intuitively the truth of what you are saying and it is very hurtful and scary for them.

How do they deal with that hurt and scary? Well they have two choices. One, they can take the courageous route and look that fear and pain in the face, dig hard for the root of it.... the fact that their "happiness" is at the horrible expense of another human being. Face who and what they are doing and have become. And then they can take appropriate actions to make good the harm they've done.

Or, they can run like hell from that fear and pain, turn it into anger and throw it back at you.

They chose the latter. This outpouring of hate and anger and is ABOUT THEM. It is not about you and what you have or have not done. It is their way of feeling better about their own cruel, thoughtless, unethical behavior.

Taylor Caldwell, one of my favorite authors and the one from whom I probably absorbed much of my insights on human behavior and interpersonal dynamics, made a very profound statement in one of her books that I read many (many) years ago. She said, "We never forgive those whom we injure."

Think about it.... when we harm another person, especially when we do so knowingly... when we know we are selfish and thoughtless and go ahead with it anyway..... it creates a deep seated shame within ourselves. As much as we try to rationalize what we are doing, we KNOW it's wrong. Every time we look at that person we see our own failings, we are reminded that we committed and act of harm.

I went to a very scholarly Catholic school. One of the things we talked about in our classes was the idea that human beings carry within them a "natural moral law." A perception of what is right and wrong at a primal level. And although the interpretation of it has much to do with the culture we're raised in, we still have a basic knowledge that harming another is wrong.

When the person who is harmed challenges us in a way which in MBspeak we would call love busters it gives us a reason to justify what we've done and we feel better about it. BUT if we are challenged in a way that is respectful and yet honest about the pain our actions have caused, our natural inclination is to react in exactly the way your W and the OM are doing. It's their way of hiding from their own shame.

This is what you're getting thrown at you now. Your letter to OM and the fact that you sent it to family members touched the part of W and OM that feels shame and guilt. The only way they can continue with what they are doing is to make you the bad guy.

You're not. You never were. No matter what you did or did not do in the marriage, infidelity is never ok. There is nothing that makes it ok. There is nothing that makes seeking happiness under those conditions ok.

And mark my words, the waters or their happiness have been forever muddied. They can never pretend to themselves or to each other that they are innocent. Your pain and the betrayal they enacted will stand as a wall between them forever.

The only thing I would want to say to OM is this. "Just wait, your day will come. And then you will know."

Hugs, ALS..... my thoughts are very much with you today. You are a good and brave man.

C

Wow!!!

First, 2 STTSI and I'mready: You 2 are an inspiration!!!! Hugs 2 you!

Star: What an eloquent letter! But Cerri is right, no more contact is the order of the day.

ALS: you're going 2 be fine. Everything that's happened *IS* following the script, and plan B is working famously right now. And remember, I'm the "no plan B" guy, right?

Let things cool. TAke up underwater basket weaving as a hobby. Let your W and the OM cogitate on what you've said and their own childish reactions for a while.

Don't make any hasty decisions, and don't enable your W making any.

All my best,
-2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Cerri:

"The only thing I would want to say to OM is this. "Just wait, your day will come. And then you will know."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah! truer words have never been spoken.

Most folks don't beleive how prevalent infidelity really is until they themselves get to experience it. There is more than a good chance that your WW and OM will one day experience being the BS, and to paraphrase Cerri "And then they will know".

<small>[ June 04, 2003, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>