ALS:

We're here for you, man!!!!

Ugh. I guess that letter is exactly the kind of thing we BSs hate the thought of getting when we talk about contacting the OP.

But, having said that, I see nothing unexpected, really. An awful lot of revisionist history in there.

You are entirely right. Your W may have used the abortion and your argument when she moved out as justification for her behavior, but none of that has any bearing on the simple fact that they started their relationship while you are still married, rather than getting a DV and starting "clean." None of the "blame-shifting" arguments absolves this guy of the guilt for the very serious wrong he has perpetrated on her, you, and himself by his behavior.

I don't know whether it would do any good 2 engage him in further dialog, but Cerri would. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I'm the kind of guy that, once engaged, I'd be "happy" 2 set the record straight if given the opportunity. For me, the email route works best, because I have time 2 compose my thoughts and contain my anger. And believe me, there's a LOT of "meat" that one could sink their hooks in2 in that letter!!!

On the other hand, like I said 2 my W on Friday night, about contacting RM: "I can't very well say, on the one hand, that I want him out of my life, and then on the other hand talk 2 him as though he exists." I was surprised that didn't anger her, but it didn't.

I don't know if this is any consolation, but in the past year my W said something about an "incident" before we were M'd where she thought she might be PG, but 2rned out not 2 be. I remember that clearly. My reaction was 2 be there for her. I would not have wanted her 2 get an abortion. But she didn't remember me as compassionate about it, even though I'll bet I was bubbling with compassion, love and concern for her. So, ALS, it probably doesn't matter what you did or said or the outcome of that time at all. It's just fuel for her justification fire.

Feeling for you,
-2long.

deflect and dodge accountability. i never understand how someone can be so la-di-da about someone else's marriage. culturally speaking, it saddens me deeply. w and om will both understand soon enough that their happiness is doomed unless they begin to heal/fix themselves ("as long as we have each other, we'll always be happy." right, pull this leg, it plays jingle bells). it's not apparent they plan on doing that any time soon.

try not to sweat it. you've admitted that you were not a perfect husband, that you acted out in the wake of learning your wife was having an affair (how else were you supposed to behave?) ultimately what is braver? me thinks that standing up for your marriage after learning of such betrayal is pretty darned gutsy.

i think, regardless of his responseto you, this will begin to put pressure on them. you may not get your marriage back, but you will have peace.

Whip's right, ALS. There's no doubt from the speedy reply and content that you've applied pressure. You've hit a sore spot. I bet he's thinking about his parents problems right now, and how he's following in their footsteps.

Did you suggest to your W that he pay for the DV?

That would likely frost his testicles as well.

Gonna be a bumpy ride in La-la land, I'm betting.

-2long.

yes ... i'm no shrink, but i'm guessing that for him to be accountable is to admit he is no better than his father. and he's not man enough now to to go anywhere near that.

you did the right thing.

Hey guys, thanks for the support, I am really needing it right now.

He is doing a good job at taking the blame off of him, making him look like the white knight, and basically just letting W be the responsible party. And that is all true, what he's said, but he STILL participated, and I wonder if I need to respond to this somehow to try and get that through his thick head. Perhaps even with the statement I wrote earlier today.

W told him all he needed to hear to keep him on the line when she was leaving me. She told him that he wasn't breaking up the M, she was leaving anyway, so he may as well continue on with her. She dug up anything horrible I may have ever did to try and make me out to be a monster. And he even claims he said (and this is probably true) that she should stay with me if she thought it could work, but of course she didn't want that so she told him no. And that was all he needed to hear.

But like you guys say, that doesn't make what he did right anyway. The bottom line is that he became his father (or at least the equivalent of the women his father left his mother for). I just wonder if he needs to hear that. I bet he'd be shocked to hear I even know that tidbit of info.

2long, I told W I wasn't paying for the divorce but didn't go further than that. She'd never ask him anyway, she'll pay for it herself, even if it means selling her engagement ring (which she may do in the wake of this if she hasn't already).

All this being said, if anyone has any suggestions on ways I can respond to this, should Cerri think it's acceptable, I'd love to hear them. I am already in the process of crafting one of my own.

I seriously think this guy still feels he is the good guy and did nothing wrong, and doesn't understand that by just giving W the OPTION of him or me at the time, he was already interfering with the M.

ALS

Don't respond ALS. I'm sorry that's all I have time for tonight, but I'll do my best to answer tomorrow before I need to leave town.

Put your shields up and remind yourself that you are not the terrible person he says you are. No matter what you did or didn't do, it doesn't come close to having an affair with someone else's wife. If this guy was so wonderful to your W he would have been an advocate for her marriage. Always remember that.

Gotta go, really, sorry.

C

ALS:

While it may look like he just HAS 2 know that his involvement is why you're not with your W right now, I bet he doesn't have a clue. His fog is just as thick as your W's fog.

I would think that, if anything, emailing your W would be the thing 2 do from this point, but you're in plan B, so that would disrupt the plan. It might make more sense 2 let her and her family thrash around for a bit. Maybe some healing can come out of all this for them, if not for your M. In truth, there's probably no point in further contact with the OM. Let him fester in his bile.

You're already prepared for DV, so you should be okay if this takes a long time, and it just might. And it might not end the way you'd like. While it's true that only 3% of marriages born from affairs survive 5 years, I bet that won't stop these 2. They may think they're going 2 beat the odds.

Very sad.
-2long

C, absolutely no, you can't leave town NOW! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks for your quick check-in, I know your time is limited. I didn't expect action on this so quickly actually.

I am formulating a response for OM anyway, even if it never gets sent I am going to post it here, just to get it off my chest.

I just hate the fact that my letter has actually given him ANOTHER chance to be my W's hero. "Look, W, look! I just stuck up for you! I just told your H how horrible he was to you! Aren't I great?" I hate that and I really feel like my message to him didn't get through at all. He totally thinks he's doing no wrong. In fact, he thinks he's a hero.

2long: I think he doesn't even admit his involvement is what stopped the M. W told him and he believes it, that she was leaving me no matter what. She did this to ease his guilt and make it easier for their A to flourish I beleive.

I already emailed W yesterday anyway, so I suppose that will be that. I just hope OM doesn't actually believe all that crap he wrote today. But what scares me is I think that he totally sees that he is my W's savior and that he has done no wrong, he has simply saved a hurt girl from her horrible husband and marriage.

This won't change anything, I'm afraid. I don't think W wants to marry OM or anyone ever again really, I think she likes the freedom to run when things get tough. She will stick with OM as long as he keeps her happy, when things get tough she'll run to the next. I can almost promise you they will not get married, but they may end up together for many years.

Sad indeed.

ALS

Oh my, W keeps trying to call, I turned off the answering machine. I just don't even want to hear her angry tirade at this point. She needs to cool off before I can even take it.

STRESS CITY.

ALS

I know C says I should not write back to OM, and I will not, just thought I'd share the rough draft of what I WOULD have sent if I was allowed to. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

--

Since you felt the need to respond, I'll say my peace on your comments but then I am finished.

I am totally ashamed of the way I acted when W was pregnant. While I don't think the story was as harsh as you've heard, it's true that I got spooked and did not offer the support I should have. That wasn't me. I think W knew this, otherwise she wouldn't have continued to date me and then married me after going through all that. The way I treated her and the situation still haunts me to this day, though I'd always thought W knew and understood how much I regretted that, and that we had moved on from it. I had no idea how much it still haunted her as well.

I've told her that and apologized countless times, but I know it doesn't change the past. I don't feel that it's fair of her or you to judge me based on that incident. We all make mistakes and the way I treated W then was the biggest of my life. W was pregnant a few months after we started dating. Since then, we continued to date, and grew closer. She moved in. I gave her a ring and asked her to marry me. She was so happy. She said yes. What I'm getting at is, you citing the way that I handled her pregnancy as justification to have an affair doesn't really add up, for why would she agree to marry me if she knew she couldn't live with the mistakes I made?

But you know what, regardless of what mistakes I made then, it doesn't come close to having an affair with someone else's wife.

When I found out my wife was cheating on me with you, I was hurt. I reacted angrily to that and I think a lot of other guys would as well.I'm not sure if you've ever been cheated on, but in the heat of the moment, your emotions get the best of you and you act irrationally. I gave her a hard time about taking the mattress because I'd hoped it would have made it tougher for her to leave and make her reconsider staying. I know that was the wrong approach, I explained this to her a while ago and she understood. There were no arguments about anything else at the house other than her camera, which I also placed with her things months ago. I even helped her pack everything and move it into her new place. Even on the day she left, I again asked her to please stay and try. But since W moved out, I have not kept her from having any of her things. Anything she asked for, she has asked me and been able to come and take without a problem. She's had no need for a locksmith.

We all make mistakes, but we are human. I have regretably done things to hurt W, and she's done things to hurt me as well. But we have the ability to learn from those mistakes and make up for them. W was depressed and started having an affair behind my back. Do you agree that's the right way to act when you are married to someone? Even dating someone? If you are not happy, should you just start sneaking around with someone new before you end your previous relationship? Do you agree with that type of behavior? I value my marriage, and the commitment that it stands for, and I think it says something of my character that I still want to save the marriage in the face of all that's happened. If anything, I am and have always been a loving and dedicated husband to her, so please don't accuse me of otherwise. I have made mistakes, but there really is nothing you can say that can truly justify, to me or to yourself, the way you have interfered with my marriage.

Imagine how you feel about the woman that your Dad cheated on your Mom with. That's how I feel about you. It doesn't matter what's going on with someone's marriage -- When someone is married, you just don't start a relationship with them. You're now no better than he was.W is not my girlfriend, she is my wife. You had the choice to wait until she ended her marriage if that's what she wanted, but you didn't. It was not right. In fact, they actually have a term for it: adultery. Whether you want to admit it or not, you enabled her leaving me. You put yourself out there as a choice, telling her that you were ready and available if she didn't want her husband any longer. You can't honestly look at yourself in the mirror and think that was the moralistic thing to do.

Without you in the picture to cloud her judgement, I feel she would have at least had the oppportunity to think, and do the right thing -- come home and give our marriage a chance. See a counselor together. Talk to me about our issues. If after doing that for a while, if she would have wanted to go, I would have understood. I'm just not a guy who feels that when you marry someone, you cheat and walk out the door when things get tough. You stick together and try to work through your problems, instead of seeking comfort with another partner.

I think after reading this you can at least see me as a guy who loves W and remains willing to do what he can to keep his marriage together. W chose to run away without facing any of these issues with me and for that I am sorry, but a lot of that was due to your influence.

I know this isn't all your fault, but I hold you partially responsible, don't think that you aren't just as much to blame as she or I.

--

ALS

ALS:

That looks good, and since you're not going 2 send it, I would only suggest this one change:

From:
"You stick together and try to work through your problems, instead of seeking comfort with another partner."

To:
"You stick together and try to work through your problems, instead of seeking comfort with a lyin' sack of sea-goin' salty salmon $h!+, steadily sinking somewhere south of Seattle."

or not,
-2long

Funny stuff, 2long, thanks man. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Let me tell you, my nerves are going crazy right now. Obviously the reaction my W had to my latest offensive was more severe than I even thought.

She tried to call about 5 times, I turned off the answering machine so she could not leave a message but knew it was her -- Ah the beauty of caller ID. Then I got scared because I had a feeling I knew her next move.

I was right. Just a few minutes ago she showed up at the house, I hid. I had all the lights off in anticipation but I hope I didn't get spotted when I peered out the window. She banged on the door and rang the doorbell repeatedly for about 5 minutes before she gave up. Dunno if she left a note on the door or anything, I'm not going to open it for a while in case she comes back. Luckily the garage has no windows so she has no way to know if my car is here or not (a very good thing).

I hate feeling like a prisoner in my own home but I just think today is a bad day to talk to her. I just hope she doesn't do what OM said and call a locksmith to get in. It'd cost her plenty but I could see her doing it just so she can let steam off her chest.

Now, you all know from being here the value of "taking a breath" and waiting to cool down before you respond. Obviously today I am getting W and OM's immediate reaction to the emails.

W is obviously FUMING about it -- First off I wrote OM and who knows if he even told her he wrote me back. My guess is no, at least not until after the fact. His big mistake? Mentioning the abortion took place while we were married. Maybe that was just bad forming of words on his part, but part of me thinks she told him that all went down after we were married, more recently.

Why? Well, it lessens the impact of her story if she marries me after the fact. He could ask her why she chose to do so after I behaved so badly. But if the story is told AFTER we are married, she becomes a lot more sympathetic. She may be afraid that I may respond, and also afraid that he may find out she is not being honest with him. But I may never get to find that out.

Chances are W is desperately trying to find me to give it to me good, and to tell her to get out of her life, and to NEVER contact OM again (uh oh, I think she's afraid he might start to find out about the lies!). Maybe even threaten me, who knows. Her wrath is scary.

I am sure she is angry as hell right now, but hopefully she will have some time to sleep on it and will be calm when I eventually must see her. It's never good to talk when you are angry.

One thing's for sure, things ain't easy in the W/OM world tonight.

I need a drink!

ALS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ALostSoul:
I need a drink!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yes, decidedly. may i suggest a nice single malt?

Anyone have any idea why she won't just send me an email message?

She's calling AGAIN. I just let it ring and ring (turned the ringer off though). I refuse to talk to her right now.

Why is she insisting on calling and then showing up in person for the first time in 2 months?

What could she have to say that's so crucial that she can't just send an email?

I'm thinking she is just itching for a confrontation now and that an email isn't going to be satisfying enough for her.

Guess I'm just gonna hafta hide myself as best I can for a while until she can calm down from all of this.

ALS

<small>[ June 03, 2003, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: ALostSoul ]</small>

ALS:

"Anyone have any idea why she won't just send me an email message?"

I could think of lots of reasons, but they don't matter.

"She's calling AGAIN. I just let it ring and ring (turned the ringer off though). I refuse to talk to her right now."

Why not turn the answering machine back on and let her leave a message. You don't have 2 listen 2 it any time soon, if you're not ready 2.

"Why is she insisting on calling and then showing up in person for the first time in 2 months?"

You know the answer 2 this. She's tweaked at you! Let her cool down. It's all you can do. Go away for a while if you have 2.

"What could she have to say that's so crucial that she can't just send an email?"

By not emailing you, by yelling at you in person, there's no record.

"I'm thinking she is just itching for a confrontation now and that an email isn't going to be satisfying enough for her."

Right.

"Guess I'm just gonna hafta hide myself as best I can for a while until she can calm down from all of this."

If you're worried about it, stay in a hotel for a few days.

Take care,
-2long

i say you turn the machine back on and let her leave a message. it will probably make her stop. besides, what does it matter that you don't want to talk to her? you asked that she not contact you unless it's to talk about reconciliation, right? her persistence seems to say she's in no mood to chat about a future together.

btw, it's too bad you couldn't have sent your response to om as your first contact to him. it was well written ... moreso that what you sent. c'est la vie, eh?

Well, this is probably one of the hardest ones of all. I really tried, folks -- It seems her family has even met OM and all is well. So wow, it was actually a lot different than I thought, her parents embraced the A, her OM felt no pity from the A, and that's that.

This is what I just got from W in email. Guess this is what she has been so urgently trying to talk to me on the phone or in person to say:


Yes! You are standing in the way of my hapiness. You won't let me go. I don't want to be your wife anymore. Trust me you will be a lot happier once you do let me go and move on. I don't like the person you are. I don't appreciate the way that you treat me. And I will NEVER forgive you for the things you have
done to me. You can't make me love you, I don't even like you anymore.

Stop contacting my family. Stop contacting OM. I am the only person that you require dealings with is me. You continue contacting them and I am going to consider it harassment. Be forewarned.

If you really cared about me you would want me to be happy and OM makes me happy. I am happier than I have ever been with you. There is nothing here for us.

The way you continue to act only proves that you don't give a sh&t about me. I am still "legally" your wife, so what. Not by my choice. I have been asking for a divorce for months. I am not a possesion. You don't own me.

Let me go.

And for the record, my parents like OM (why yes they have met him). My Mom told me how much nicer he is than you. So don't be fooled into thinking they were concerned for you. The only person they were and are concerned for is me.

As for the 20th, I will be there at 12:15. I will bring the divorce papers so you can take some time to look them over.


Here is the email I just got (meanwhile, she continues to call me on the phone nonstop on some sort of auto-redial, is that harassment as well? It's still ringing as we speak). By the way, I don't think I can be sued for harassment for emailing someone, can I? Who knows in this day and age.

Anyway, I am a pretty nice guy, seriously, I know I am biased but I am. OM may be nice as well (plus he smokes, as do her parents, so I guess that was an immediate kinship there).

I'm not sure what she means by not appreciating the way I treat her (unless she means just these past few days). I have been a very good friend to her even since D-Day and before.

Also, not sure about "I don't like the person that you are." I'd really love to challenge her to defend that statement (except for whatever I may have done to upset her post-A)...Before the A started I do think I was generally a stand-up guy. I took care of all the bills, did all the chores, and loved her as much as I could.

Anyway folks, you've pretty much seen the whole progression with me here. MY W is definitely a very angry and troubled person. Her family has also let me down, I think that's what hurts the most -- They have met OM and are telling W how much more thay approve of him than I. Not a good way to handle your daughter's marriage.

Regardless, I am still glad I did what I did and saw W's true colors. I will finish this civilly and move on. I am sad, but I am also sad for her as well.

Ah, the phone calls just stopped.

ALS

ALS:

DON'T respond 2 her email!

If she comes over and you can't avoid her, then so be it.

I wouldn't necessarily believe that her family loves the lyin' sack of... ...but they might. Who knows? Who cares?

Stay dark. Give her time 2 think about things. In the end, this is your call, because it's your life, 2. When you can get 2 a point where you know you've done all you can and you, at least, are DVing in good conscience, then edit the papers and sign them.

When you've moved on 2 other relationships, you will have a clean slate and a lot of knowledge 2 take with you.

regards,
-2long

hmmmm ... i know i'm not sure what to think. speak with cerri as soon as she is able. she has not led you astray. listen. ultimately you will do the thing you feel is best. you always have.

big brotherly hugs, mi amigo.

btw ... i'm shaking my head over that wanting a divorce for months part. you mean that divorce she never moved along? the one with all her blanks filled in yet allowed to collect dust? that one? you know where i'm going with this. i'll say no more.

What scares me is that I think I am starting to believe her. She IS happier than she ever was with OM than me. I mean she’s had 7 months with the guy. Maybe he does have whatever it was that I was missing for her. Maybe she really did marry me just because she thought she couldn’t find anyone better. Maybe I really am not as good of a guy for HER than the OM is.

Not to say I am a bad guy, mind you, just that
OM makes her happier than I ever could and that he IS a better match for her. I mean look at her family, they support affairs, she had an affair in a year of marriage, maybe this IS one of those matches made in heaven (or hell) for her and OM. I dunno.

Her email really really hurts me. I guess that’s what she wants to do. I really want to ask her what the things she will never forgive me for (other than the abortion incident, nothing major I have ever done to her comes to mind). And honestly, I treated that girl like gold every day. I may not have been the best listener at times but I loved her, took care of her and the house, and even after the A I treated her as best as I could. So I’m not sure where the notion that I treated her bad comes from either.

I really think it's time to throw in the towel, I'm not sure what else to do at this point and she sure went ballistic from this last set of emails.

I still wish I could send that note to OM. I really think there's some lies that need to be revealed.

But then again, I guess it wouldn't make a difference. The anger in W's note above is pretty pure. I don't expect she'll be back, ever.

ALS