I have exactly 60 seconds....... I just wanted to say that everything your W is saying to you are things that I said at one time or another to my x. I would give just about anything to take them back. They were exactly as I said above, my way of justifying what I knew wasn't ok.... my way of hiding from what I had become.

Men that I know who have been the OM have also told me that they responded very much the same as your W's affair partner is doing. Later to regret it.

Opps over time, gotta go. Send me good traffic thoughts!!

C

I feel like I could shed a tear. Your outpouring of response, support and encouragement has warmed my heart. Thanks to you all.

Whippit -- Very good point you make, sometimes a civil discussion can turn ugly. If W manages to track me down, chances are it will be to try and start an argument anyway. Regardless of her demeanor, I will calmly ask her to leave and tell her I will see her to sign the car title on the 20th. No reason to get into it with her at all right now.

Starfish -- We must be on the same wavelength! I just saw that post as well. Thank you for asking about me and thanks for taking the time to catch up. There's been a lot of drama here but a lot of learning and growth as well. Cerri has been fantastic and I have done my best to take the right steps and do as much as I could to save things. You were one of my early supporters, starfish, and I wanted you to be aware of the latest turn.

Your response to the OM is incredible, really. I can understand why Cerri is asking me not to respond, but boy, I'd sure to love to send him something like that. It's really well spoken and it does speak a truth that he'd have a hard time arguing with. Well done.

Cerri -- Hello C! Thanks for taking the time to write so much when it was obvious you had somehwere else to be.

As I thought you'd say, you recommend I don't respond and that's what I will do then (also why I've been avoiding W's phone calls, etc. No contact!) I need to quote some stuff now, because your message really did have some very uplifting things to say:

They are, as someone put it so well last week, "following the script." The fact that you are getting such virulent angry responses tells me that you hit a pretty sensitive nerve for both of them. They know intuitively the truth of what you are saying and it is very hurtful and scary for them.

I thought of that as well. If I didn't affect them, especially W, the reaction wouldn't have been as strong. Even OM felt the need to defend himself with that long reply. And W went ballistic as you saw. I read somewhere once that someone doesn't get angry about someone they don't care about, I've obviously stirred up some kind of emotion. I just hope they don't believe the words they are saying to me, but something worries me that they are so stuck in the fog that they DO. They see W as the victim, me as the disease, and OM as the saviour.

This outpouring of hate and anger and is ABOUT THEM. It is not about you and what you have or have not done. It is their way of feeling better about their own cruel, thoughtless, unethical behavior.

That would make sense, again, seeming as they both felt their need to respond immediately and strongly -- OM with his accusatory, holier-than-thou email, and W with the 50 phone calls, email, and the banging at the door.

She said, "We never forgive those whom we injure."

Perhaps that could explain why W said in her email that she could never forgive me for the things I did to her. I'm curious about what those things are, unless they are what were already mentioned. Again, I could see the abortion incident as something to be upset over, but it was 3 years ago, and she married me well after the fact! It just doesn't add up. As for her post D-Day complaints, well, I was upset. I acted irrationally. But who could blame me?

Perhaps it is just the fact that forgiving me would mean that she was wrong, and she isn't willing or able to do that.

Every time we look at that person we see our own failings, we are reminded that we committed and act of harm.

Hence the reason that many a WS doesn't want to see the BS or look us in the eye. I think the sooner she has me out of her life, the sooner she things she can forget what she did to me.

This is what you're getting thrown at you now. Your letter to OM and the fact that you sent it to family members touched the part of W and OM that feels shame and guilt. The only way they can continue with what they are doing is to make you the bad guy.

I do want to believe this is true, I guess it's just hard after reading their responses, to me it seems they believe what they are saying to me and that they carry no guilt over it. Heck, OM may have at least seen a BIT more guilt-ridden than W, but W seems hell-bent on telling me how horrible she thinks I am.

And mark my words, the waters or their happiness have been forever muddied. They can never pretend to themselves or to each other that they are innocent. Your pain and the betrayal they enacted will stand as a wall between them forever.

I hope that this last effort from me has at least caused strain. I worry that it's just brought them closer together as it seems they really both got together to attack me and also defended each other if you noticed. Sickening, yes, but I don't know if this has put up the wall we'd hoped.

The only thing I would want to say to OM is this. "Just wait, your day will come. And then you will know."

Cerri might also here have been referring to the fact that my W's cycle of depression and betrayal may come to affect him in a few years as well. And then that day he may understand what I went through with her.

2long --

Wow, YOU agree that PB is working? That IS a shock. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Actually I'm not sure, PB did defininitely cause some tension yesterday for them. I'm sure they lost some sleep over it. But they may be able to weather it. They seem strong, at least from what I have seen, and determined to be right and to be together. It's a shame, but I worry that the time away from me and with OM just allowed W to forget ever loving me, and forget all the good things we used to have. I really feel all she is focusing on now is the negative, and that's all she remembers of me. Maybe that makes it easier for her to dislike me.

Anyway, sounds like it's back to the shadows for me as far as they're concerned. I need a break after last night, I think I almost had a coronary.

And thanks for the final words of wisdom, Cerri -- It IS a comfort to know that previous WS's and OM's have said similar things. Maybe there is still hope for them both...someday.

Sending you good traffic vibes...

ALS

ALS:

I have about 37 2nds, then I've got 2 get some work done!!

"I just hope they don't believe the words they are saying to me, but something worries me that they are so stuck in the fog that they DO. They see W as the victim, me as the disease, and OM as the saviour."

I bet we can guarantee that they do, ALS. That's what the fog "does for them". It protects them from facing the fact that they've done a serious wrong. But it can't protect them for long. They ac2ally probably believe that THEY are the victims and you're the attacker here, and so in self defense they're attacking you more viciously than ever before. It can't last though. What a miserable way 2 live.

"She said, "We never forgive those whom we injure."
Perhaps that could explain why W said in her email that she could never forgive me for the things I did to her. "

I don't think this is what she meant. She meant that your W can't forgive YOU for what SHE's doing 2 YOU. Make sense? Heckfire no!!!

Take care,
-2long

Dear ALS:

Sorry I am so late to the party, but you have received such thoughtful support from everyone.

Their reactions are all par for the course. I truly believe the venom of their attack is in direct proportion to the real amount of guilt they feel for their actions.

What you cannot do is let it make you feel different about yourself and your actions. We have all in our youth done things we wish we had handled differently. If your treatment of your W during the abortion was so hard on her she would not have continued the relationship.

The OM reply was laughable and need no further comment. Please don't give him another thought it is not worth your time. I did like your response. I just don't think it matters.

The fact that W wants you to only address her is very telling to me. I think there was a whole lot of stuff going down in her camp from this.

Please don't let this keep you down and second guessing yourself. Their reactions are ALL about them.

Peace ALS

Jack

Oops, posted on the wrong thread.

<small>[ June 04, 2003, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: Brit's Brat ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ALostSoul:
... But they may be able to weather it. They seem strong, at least from what I have seen, and determined to be right and to be together. ...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i wouldn't count on it. too much to fix and too little understanding of themselves to seek a path to find health and happiness. like cerri said, they will one day know. anyone who truly wakes up will see that what they've done is a source of their own pain ... never mind the pain of others.

ALS,

Just remember: "If you argue with an idiot, you will sound like an idiot." No need to respond to OM, the opinion of a man of his stature you DON'T NEED.

Not that you need another vote, but I am voting with the majority here. You have open up this mess to the light of day, and the bee hive is humming. That is all you can do. All you needed to do.

So let things go as they will. You now know that all of the major players know how YOU feel. Let that work on them for awhile.

Hang in there, enjoy your friends, if you meet with her on the 20th, bring someone along with you to witness things.

God Bless,

JL

"If you argue with an idiot, you will sound like an idiot." Thanks, JL. You all have the best quotes here. And it all makes so much sense when it's put that way. I guess the bottom line is that I need to resist my urge to win a battle of words with OM (though I feel I could do so) because he's a moron, and no matter what I say it's not going to change his mind.

I guess I was just hoping I could at least get the guilt factor going a bit more with the guy. I don't feel I'm affecting W at all, really, but maybe I could have at least hit a nerve with him if I kept at it. But Cerri and the rest of you here generally feel otherwise, and I respect you, so that's what I'm going to do. Keep quiet.

i wouldn't count on it. too much to fix and too little understanding of themselves to seek a path to find health and happiness. like cerri said, they will one day know. anyone who truly wakes up will see that what they've done is a source of their own pain ... never mind the pain of others.

Well I hope so -- If I can't have W back and save the marriage, I at least hope that one day she understands that what she did was wrong. I hope she can learn that someday. That would be my next request if I can't have the marriage back.

I don't think this is what she meant. She meant that your W can't forgive YOU for what SHE's doing 2 YOU. Make sense? Heckfire no!!!

Ouch, my brain. I guess in a way she is right now also blaming ME for her HAVING the A. In other words, if I wasn't such a bad husband (her thoughts) she wouldn't need to be in this position. Plus, I think Cerri was just saying that she knows she hurt me, but not forgiving me gives her an excuse to keep doing that.

That's what the fog "does for them". It protects them from facing the fact that they've done a serious wrong. But it can't protect them for long. They ac2ally probably believe that THEY are the victims and you're the attacker here, and so in self defense they're attacking you more viciously than ever before. It can't last though. What a miserable way 2 live.

Well, one day they won't have me in the way or to blame for any issues they have anymore. Chances are they rarely, if ever talk about the actual affair or me, because it brings up too much guilt for the both of them.

Their reactions are all par for the course. I truly believe the venom of their attack is in direct proportion to the real amount of guilt they feel for their actions.

Well then they must be feeling pretty guilty, Jack! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> All quiet so far today though, I think perhaps that the initial anger from W is over. Maybe I will have peace now.

What you cannot do is let it make you feel different about yourself and your actions. We have all in our youth done things we wish we had handled differently. If your treatment of your W during the abortion was so hard on her she would not have continued the relationship.

Yes, true -- I just wonder if OM knows that whole incident occured almost 2 years before we even got married.

The OM reply was laughable and need no further comment. Please don't give him another thought it is not worth your time. I did like your response. I just don't think it matters.

I liked it too, but if it doesn't matter, like most here say, on the page it stays.

The fact that W wants you to only address her is very telling to me. I think there was a whole lot of stuff going down in her camp from this.

She is/was VERY scared I would contact them OM further. She is afraid of my affect on his guilt, and also afraid he will find out that some of what she has been telling him is false. That's why my urge was so great to contact him again. Obviously what contact I already had hurt things, at least, hurt her.

I still plan to meet with her on the 20th, though at the lunch hour I doubt I'll have anyone that I can bring along. That's okay though, I don't plan on entering into an argument with her, I will listen if she complains or yells, but I will just basically be quiet, sign the papers and go. Can't argue with an idiot, remember. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

ALS

ALS-

Don't go...pay the car insurance...and leave her wondering.

If she was so hot to get the D papers to you, Why didn't she leave them there taped to the dorr last night when she was pounding on your door? Hmmmmmmmm? Makes you wonder?

Think REALLY hard about this...

ALS,

One of my favorite posters...Takola...says this:

"Don't try and teach a pig to sing, it's a waste of time, and it annoys the pig."

ALS,

Here is a copy of a post that someone had back in January, I believe. Originally, it was about a male WS...but I changed it around so it would fit my situation (and so, it fits yours). this is what I would have loved to send to OM.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">he'll be different with you, you're special.
Author Unknown

You two have a "connection," a rapport that she didn't have with her husband. You have more things in common, similar personalities. She's pointed out all the ways that you two are so alike - it's just uncanny. You are so lucky to have met her at this point in your life. She says that she really appreciates you for who you are - and she's the first person to really do that, isn't she? Sure, she said the same things to *him* when she got together with him (and then grew to hate so many things about him), but it's different with you. She couldn't possibly be operating from scripts anymore. And it's so nice to finally have someone YOU can lean on, isn't it? It's hard being on your own and doing it all yourself. All of a sudden, here's this girl offering to help in ways that no one ever did. Knowing all the things you have been longing for and wanting in a partner. She couldn't possibly be hooking into your heart-felt desires and hurt places and pretending to be the answer, because she knows that's where you are vulnerable. She couldn't be pretending to like the things you like, and want the things you want, and be the person you have been looking for, because it's part of her patterns. Just because she did that with the men that came before you, doesn't mean she's doing that with you. She's really sincere this time.

She's told you all her deep dark secrets (at least, all the ones she thinks can win her sympathy and attention). She's acknowledged how she behaved badly in the past (even though it was brought out by whom she was with). You two must have a very special connection for her to be so open and "honest". And she seems to be remorseful, so that must mean she won't do that kind of thing again, right? Not with you. You're special. So what if she told her husband the same kinds of deep, dark secrets, opened up in the same way? So what if she exhibited the same kind of remorse for things she did to partners before HIM? So what if she told him all the same sob stories and pretended to be working on her **** with him? So what if she lied to her therapist and others? She really means it this time, with you.

She says things are going to be different with YOU. Even though she SAYS she accepts responsibility for her actions, she also says that it was really things in HIM that brought out her bad behavior. She's not going to be like that with YOU. Sure, she said the same things to HIM, but this time she'll be different, because she's told you how YOU are different from him. (So what if she's told other people how you remind her of HIM? That doesn't mean she's following the same old patterns, targeting the same types of men. That doesn't mean that she'll in turn be emotionally abusive with YOU at some point...) She's such a sweet, wonderful, helpful girl, it MUST have been something in HIM that caused her to act badly, right?

So what if she was busy cutting him down behind his back with their mutual friends while she was telling him he was the "best thing that ever happened to her", and that she had "never loved anyone as much as she loved him"? That doesn't mean she still has the capacity to be manipulative and dishonest and cruel. She was just confused, the poor woman. And besides, she won't be like that anymore, with the right man to love her and dote on her. He just didn't give her the kind of attention she really needed. But YOU will. So she'd NEVER do that to YOU.

So what if she didn't leave her husband before she got together with you? It's not like she should spend a few years in therapy, and work on her stuff before getting involved in another intimate relationship, right? I mean, after close to a decade of emotional abuse, she can get herself fixed up enough to stop harming others in a just few months, with the right man to rescue, er, "help" her.

And those stories of how her husband emotionally abandoned her... She's just had it so ROUGH all her life! She told you how he didn't even try to keep the marriage together or say that he wanted to try to salvage their relationship. He was just so unfeeling! The poor woman - here she was trying so HARD and all - seeing a counselor and everything! It couldn't possibly be that HE was so emotionally beaten down by her behavior that he was RELIEVED when she wanted to leave... She couldn't have been emotionally abusive and dishonest with HIM too! If her husband didn't trust her, it had nothing to do with HER and her behavior - it must have been HIS issues.

She has REAL, deep feelings for you. You've even seen her cry and show her vulnerable side. That MUST mean she's sincere, right? She couldn't possibly be using YOU for an ego stroke. Not the woman YOU know.

She's just so caring and sensitive and considerate. She's so sweet, rubbing baby oil all over you, making love, sending you little cards, candles, doing all those romantic things. She really does seem too good to be true - cooking, cleaning, intelligent, literate, creative, affectionate. So what if she was like that for the few years or so with him too... before the subtle patterns of abuse started to creep in? So what if all that "wonderful" behavior shifted until she was telling him she loved him one day and then telling others how horrible he was behind his back the next? She wouldn't do that to you too, down the road. He must have brought it out in her. She couldn't possibly be playing the same game over and over again, with you as the next target. No. This time, she'll be different, with you.

So what if she has been incapable of honesty and integrity all her life? That couldn't mean that she was telling lies to YOU. After all, she was so HONEST about her dishonesty so THAT'S got to count for something... It must mean she realizes her mistakes and won't make the same ones again, right? The fact that she acknowledges things is so CONVINCING. If she acknowledges it, then she couldn't possibly STILL do those sorts of things. Sure, sure. She had HIM convinced too. But she couldn't possibly be STILL lying to YOU. You're special.

Yeah, sure, she might have done those kinds of things in the past, but the past is the past, right? It doesn't have any danger of repeating itself with you. Because you're special. Her love for you is so strong and your connection to each other is so different (at least, that's what she has told you, and you know you can trust her, right?), she wouldn't EVER do anything deliberately hurtful or malicious to YOU. She'd never make snide remarks about YOU behind your back. No, no, no. He must have brought that out in her. But you, you're special.

Besides, she's been in therapy. That must mean she's sincere, right? She wouldn't possibly be using the whole "therapy" thing as a cover-up to make herself look better because her reputation got damaged after the fiasco with her husband. She couldn't possibly be using contrition, and the "I feel so bad about myself"-line to get sympathy and support! She couldn't possibly be going after men who have a strong sense of personal responsibility because she knows how to manipulate that to try and get them to feel responsible for HER sick feelings. She couldn't possibly be seeking out active, intelligent, dedicated men, so that she can PUNISH them when they don't direct all that energy to HER. Just because she has engaged in such manipulative behavior in the past doesn't mean she would be doing that NOW. Not with YOU. You're SPECIAL.

She's so contrite and sincere about "working on her issues", she couldn't possibly be lying about that. Besides, if she has deceived herself so completely that SHE doesn't know it's a lie, then she can't be held accountable for it, right? She can always claim that she doesn't have good "memory" for things in the past. But don't worry. She won't use that sort of deception and evasion with YOU. You're special.

The poor girl just made bad choices before (you). Sure she made mistakes, but if her ex doesn't want to have anything to do with her, and now thinks she is mentally ill, it must be because HE is unstable - I mean, look at how amazing and kind and charming she is with you... She couldn't possibly have been like that with HIM TOO... She wouldn't be using stock romance "lines" on YOU. This time, it's REALLY love. You're Special.

Sure, she did a *few* things in her past that were unkind, but she needs to be forgiven for HER behavior, (after all, he drove her to it), but HIS mistakes and reactions to her emotional abuse, were unforgivable. But things will be different with you. She won't think YOUR mistakes are unforgivable. She won't apply a double-standard to YOU. She won't expect YOU to be perfect and subtly criticize you when you don't measure up to her standards. You're the one who is going to change her life.

And speaking of unforgivable, of COURSE she can't forgive him for doing things that *hurt* her (she's so deeply sensitive, you see) - but she couldn't possibly have lied about the things she said he did. She couldn't possibly have "set up" situations so she could cry foul... She wouldn't have ENCOURAGED him to do things so she could later claim that she was hurt by him... And, well, even if she DID maybe do that, she certainly won't do it with YOU. You're too special for that. Any time she tells you she's happy for you and she encourages you to do something, she'll REALLY means it, with YOU. She won't create a revisionist fantasy of your past so that she can insist you did things to hurt her as a justification for her cruelty to you. She won't secretly resent you for not devoting all your time to her. Even if she DID do that with him, she won't do it with you. Especially after she makes all those sacrifices for you. She won't secretly be dependent on YOU for all her attention. She won't be more demanding of you and your time and resent you when you don't give it all to her. Not THIS time. You're SPECIAL.

She's such a nice girl, she won't "help" you (especially unsolicited) and then have an unstated hidden agenda like she did with all the others. She's going to claim her right to be "selfish" now, because she's been so USED from all the excessive GIVING she did in the past that nobody really appreciated. The poor girl. She's never taken time to be selfish in the past - not even when she was sitting alone in her room, sucking off her hurts, or using other people. That wasn't selfish - that was just "acting out". But she's better now. Don't worry. She won't use her new-found right to be "selfish" against YOU. No. She really is a changed woman, with you. With you she will give unconditionally.

It's no WONDER she behaved so badly! Look at how her husband was always hurting her, oppressing her with his refusal to live his life solely for her, expecting her to be honest with her feelings when she just wasn't ready. And besides, she just can't handle confrontation, you know? And like, he's just so SCARY when he's upset that she HAD to act that way. He actually raised his voice at times! Can you imagine? Nobody else is allowed to have anger and raise their voice except HER. Because, like, she can't DEAL with it, and she shouldn't be expected to! She couldn't possibly have been projecting HER issues on him so that someone else could have her anger FOR her, or so that she could get angry with someone other than herself! She couldn't possibly have been DELIBERATELY hitting all his hot buttons to hurt and upset him so she could lay blame. And, well, even if she DID do that for years, she won't do it anymore, with you.

And if somehow you accidentally do things that "trigger" her old abuse patterns, she'll be so sweet in telling you how you are doing things that remind her of him, so that YOU can change YOUR behavior. After all, you wouldn't want her to start acting emotionally abusive again because of something YOU did.

And you don't have to worry about that, because you'll never get upset with her, and you'll never challenge her to be honest or to accept responsibility for her actions. HE did that, and it was "controlling," but it'll be different with you, because you know better. And you won't need to worry about calling her on her behavior anyway, because she'll NEVER lie to YOU. She'll always be completely honest and upfront with you. She won't have to "forget" any promises she made to YOU. If she is inconsiderate, it won't be DELIBERATE, with you. If she lied to him or anyone else, it was because they drove her to it. With you, she won't withhold information, or distort or omit the truth. She won't break fundamental relationship agreements with YOU. She won't HAVE to, because you'll be right there validating her 24/7, supporting her and telling her how she's so CLEVER and BRAVE to have escaped such a horrible relationship, and how wonderful it is that she is working so HARD to overcome her terrible past!

And it's a good thing she's not going to do any of those things she might have done in the past, because then you won't have to worry about forgiving her. You see, he REPEATEDLY forgave her for the lies and the accidentally-on-purpose "mistakes", and all that did was make her feel bad about herself - that he could forgive and she couldn't. Wasn't that AWFUL of him to make her feel so bad that way? So he DESERVED to be punished even more. And he should NEVER have shown any guilt when she manipulated him. It just caused her to hurt him more. He should have known better. YOU know better. But then, she won't be manipulative and passive-aggressive with YOU. She'll be different with you. You're SPECIAL.

And sure she made him work at the relationship when she wasn't really trying, but that wasn't being dishonest - she just didn't know what she really wanted, so that made it OK to put the burden of the relationship responsibility on him. Sure she admitted that she wanted him to make her the first priority in HIS life, but she wasn't willing to afford him the same consideration. But that wasn't one of her patterns. She won't do that with YOU. Besides, she admitted her dishonest behavior after she abandoned him, so that makes it ok. It erases everything. Her slate's clean. She even said she was sorry, months later, so that shows how sincere she was. She couldn't possibly still have been interlacing the apology with blame. She's not STILL acting manipulative and projecting issues.... and well, if she is, she's only doing that with HIM because of their history - she wouldn't do that with YOU.

And it's so sweet how she still talks about how much she cared for her husband, how much she did for him out of love. Sometimes, she even talks fondly of her treasured memories of him, of how he "helped" her (when he wasn't hurting her) - that must mean she's a deep, sensitive girl, right? Maybe you can even "help" her to forgive him and heal from her terrible past... Just like HE thought he could "help" her.

And besides, she did so many NICE things for him and all those other men. That should count for SOMETHING, right? It's not like she was emotionally abusive or manipulative ALL the time. So it kind of cancels things out, right? It's not like she HIT anyone or anything. At least the things she did didn't leave any VISIBLE marks. Besides, she probably just made honest mistakes, that's all. She couldn't have actually got off on seeing them hurt and crying. She wouldn't have LAUGHED condescendingly in someone's face while he was crying. Not the woman YOU are involved with. SHE certainly doesn't remember doing anything like that - and HER memory is inviolate.

She's told you how different she feels with YOU. How different she IS with you. How healing your love is. How much she NEEDS you. What a wonderful person she thinks you are. How important you are in her life. How much she values and appreciates you, and misses you when you are not together. How amazingly transformed she feels now that she has finally met someone as SPECIAL as YOU. So what if she told him the same things? She really MEANS it this time, with you. She's a changed person, (this time, for REAL) with you. You're special.

You don't need to talk to any of her ex's to find out what she was REALLY like, because the past is the past, right? You couldn't possibly learn anything from their experiences, because she's not going to be like that anymore. It couldn't possibly be that they have anything valid to say. Besides, you trust her to tell you the WHOLE TRUTH about her past (as far as she can "remember" it), right?

And she's such a sensitive, caring girl, she REALLY does wish she and her husband could be FRIENDS now. She can't understand why he would have NO desire to have any contact with her, NO desire to have anything to do with her - after all she did for him, after what they had. After all, HE is the one who did unforgivable things. She's so uncomfortable around him now, because of how much he hurt her. She wouldn't STILL be projecting HER issues on him, and implying that they are HIS issues... After all, she's a changed woman.

But you don't have to worry. She won't PUBLICLY divulge YOUR insecurities or deeply intimate things you told her in confidence to other men - she won't betray your trust - like she did with him. No matter what happens between you and her, you'll ALWAYS BE FRIENDS. You and she will always be able to work things out. So what if she said EXACTLY THE SAME THING TO HIM (and all the others) too? It'll be different with you. You're special.

She won't wait a year or two before she starts in on YOU. She won't then use her knowledge of YOUR insecurities and emotional hot buttons to deliberately hurt YOU. She won't start using psychological warfare to couch her deliberately hurtful actions in social plausibility with YOU. She won't flirt with your close friends and use any attraction they might have to her, against YOU. NO. She won't tell you that you just weren't meeting her needs or living up to her expectations. She won't expect you to read her mind. She won't try to make it look like YOU are the reason she is unhappy, and YOU are the cause of your relationship problems. She won't set you up to get upset with her so that YOU are the one who breaks it off with her, (or you get so angry with her that she HAS to break it off with YOU) and SHE looks like a martyr (AGAIN). So what if she made all the same promises to him? Just because she was following some of her old patterns when she got involved with you, doesn't mean she's going to follow through on the rest of them. She's CHANGED now. You're special. Just like HE was when she was with HIM. Just like they ALL thought they were.

YOU are the one who can "fix" her wounded ego. Your relationship with her will be So Much Better than her last ones, because you're special! With you, she'll be honest and straight-forward for the first time in her life. She won't become cruel or passive-aggressive. She won't play headgames anymore. She'll stop using and discarding people like old kleenex. She won't be rude or unkind or disrespectful like she was with those other men. SHE LOVES YOU SO MUCH, SHE'S NOW A CHANGED WOMAN. (Changed for the better, of course.) Not because of therapy. Not because she's removed herself from relationships and taken some serious time to get her **** together. Not because she's done any REAL work. Not because she's actually admitted to her real motivations, or made a single sincere change.

She just needed to find the RIGHT man to "save" her from herself and "help" her become a better woman, and that's YOU.

You just KNOW she'll be different with you. Right?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Wow, that's a mouthful. But some very, very powerful words there. Really makes you wish you had some secret way to sneak it into the guy's pocket or car or something, doesn't it? Of course not all of the things it says are 100% true regarding the past, but it's funny how much of it applies as well. So many situations of infidelity are alike. Thanks for sharing that, Mortarman. I hope you didn't have to key it all in!

Oh, and by the way, she tried calling again from work today (I just realized she did yesterday as well). The machine is still off though. Tonight might be another rough night. I just can't imagine what it must be that's so important that she say to me, especially now that she's sent me that email.

ALS

Kily --

You said:

Don't go...pay the car insurance...and leave her wondering.

I'm not sure that's such a good idea. I said I'd be there. Just prolonging this process is going to do nothing more than anger her more. I know you're thinking that this may take more time, but I can still wait on signing the papers and then there's still 3 months from there. She'll have plenty of time to change her mind if it's meant to be. I have my doubts, but perhaps now that I've exposed my feelings to all, it will hurt the A in the long term.

If she was so hot to get the D papers to you, Why didn't she leave them there taped to the dorr last night when she was pounding on your door? Hmmmmmmmm? Makes you wonder?

Well I'd love to be optimistic as you but I really don't think she is having any doubts about divorcing me, Kily. She left in a huff when I didn't answer the phone to come over. It was raining and the porch/door was wet, even if she did want to leave papers they'd have been soaked. I don't think she was thinking about that last night, she was just thinking she had a need to yell, or hit, or threaten, or whatever she needed to do to get that anger out. She's still calling, so it must still be there. I guess writing an email isn't satisfying enough for her?

ALS

ALS-

Fat lady hasn't been singing in my town...is she in yours?

Give it time man....Let the seeds grow.

She hasn't sang yet, I suppose, but you gotta admit it looks like she's warming up her vocal chords.

Just a preview, Cerri wanted me to put this here as well, but these are the topics she plans to cover next here in my thread. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

-- Plan B working/ what Plan B is for
-- Confronting and the timetable - Does it work?
-- Confronting and the energy in the A

ALS

<small>[ June 04, 2003, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: ALostSoul ]</small>

ooooh ... a little teaser!

I personally agree with Kily in that you should just pay the car and ignore her. Unfortunately, you already agreed to meet with her so you might as well follow through and then take any papers she may or may not give you and read them when you are ready.

PB is working! Your responses from W and OM are typical and expected. To answer your question, yes my W was pi$$ed off when I exposed the A. She also said that was one of the driving factors in her ending the A. I would love to tell you more but I need to make sure W is OK first.

Yes, exposing the A probably brought them closer. The A is based on lies and anger. Lies about you and how bad you are and anger towards you and how bad you are. You have already exposed the lies and people will choose which truth to believe. If you respond to OM's letter you will only be feeding their anger towards you and also telling him how he should think and feel. Neither of which you want to do.

Let W call. Go out with friends tonight and have a good time. Come home late, go to bed. Get up, go to work. Then do it over again if necessary. Eventually she will calm down.

We are pulling for you!

STTSI -

I wish I had your optimism and hope, but I'm glad to see you think PB is working. The reactions of course are natural and were expected, though they also dash a lot of my hopes in that they were both very vocal against me and OM seems unflustered.

In that I did agree to meet with her, I will do that. I just don't see how holing up and ignoring her forever will do any good, really. I'm not sure what her next move would be, if she would seek out a lawyer to file divorce or if she would wait the 2 years until she could file no fault on her own. Either way, I stand to lose.

Sure, there is a chance the A may end before then, but I don't see her wanting to come back to me at this point even if it does, judging from her last email and how she said she feels about me.

Regardless of that, I'm still happy I sent the PB letters and email to everyone this week. It's obvious that I was headed towards divorce anyway, and the only side effect of this may be that my W dislikes me even more than before -- But that doesn't really make a difference if I am going to end up divorced anyway.

Plus, I think if she looks back, she'll really see that I did nothing wrong, at least, I didn't lie about anything. Then again, the truth hurts. I could keep hitting her and OM with with many truths their heads would spin. But again, won't change anything.

W and OM are a good pair for now, in that basically she lies to get sympathy and he buys it all. Like you said, I just told them the truth and my true feelings, where they go from there is their own decision. But there is no need to go further, you're right. Won't do any good.

So far, a quiet night here. I guess she finally lost her urge to yell at me, and that's a good thing. I knew she just needed some time to calm down, this is nothing like last night.

No time to go out and party with friends during the week, but some are coming down for the weekend, and I am looking forward to that.

Thanks for your support, both you and your W!

ALS

ALS -

Hey Pal! Hang in there, you are doing everything right! PB *IS* working for you, that is why she is so highly upset!!!

To answer your question - Yes, I was HIGHLY PI$$ED when STTSI exposed the A to everyone he could think of. When he sent the PB letter, I was so angry with him all I wanted to do was fight with him. He was ruining my "happiness" with OM. I wanted to yell and scream at him, but I yelled at my family and told them what an a$$ he was for sending out that letter and how much of a lie it was. In retrospect, he said NOTHING that wasn't the truth - I just wanted everyone to believe ME and not him.

Your W is going through the same thoughts and emotions that I had. The only difference though, I just ignored my H, I never came to the house or called him relentlessly, instead I just ignored him and his efforts to make things right.

We can tell you more about our situations off-line if you would like. For now, that is all that I can think of! Oh yea, DON'T TALK TO HER! DON'T ANSWER THE PHONE CALLS!!

p.s. STTSI and I are thinking about buying Cerri a cell phone so she is accessable to us WHEN WE NEED HER <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Do you want to chip in for the cost of the phone?!?!?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ALostSoul:
<strong>Regardless of that, I'm still happy I sent the PB letters and email to everyone this week. It's obvious that I was headed towards divorce anyway, and the only side effect of this may be that my W dislikes me even more than before -- But that doesn't really make a difference if I am going to end up divorced anyway.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also waited until I was sure there was nothing more I could do. My W told me she wanted a Dv and I was ready to throw in the towel. As it happened I already had a session with Jennifer set for that night and she heled me write my PB letter and we discussed the pros/cons of sending it to everyone. In the end my only regret is that I didn't do it sooner. Even my W said it probably would have ended the A sooner.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ALostSoul:
<strong>Thanks for your support, both you and your W!
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We are always here for you along with the rest of MB. You have made some good friends here and we are all pulling for you.

<small>[ June 04, 2003, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: Still Trying To Save It ]</small>