</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cerri:
<strong>I wouldn't attempt to deport a WS simply because of an A... that would feel like revenge and nastiness to me.

I would... without a moment's pause... do whatever I could to deport an affair parnter who was in this country illegally. That would do a lot to end an affair and get some distance between the lovers.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If ALS's LB is "way, way negative" like he said than what is the point in ending the A if he doesn't love her and want her back? THAT seems like revenge and nastiness to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cerri:
<strong>Ok, I would do it, in a heartbeat. Call the INS. Sign the papers.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am shocked to read these words! Again, I will repeat what I wrote above, THAT seems like revenge and nastiness to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ALS:
<strong>Yet not a peep form her. Sure, it's possible she's giving me the silent treatment back just for spite, but chances are she doesn't want to sign those papers until Monday because she's been playing me all along.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What do you mean not a peep? For two days she has done nothing but try to get in contact with you. Now all of a sudden you try and she has stepped back and it is because she wants to stall a Dv?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Polar Boy:
<strong>I think that a line from the Lords Prayer fits here. "Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us". Only once you are truly able to forgive her will you be able to find peace with yourself including your past, this marriage and most importantly your future.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with PB here. I don't see how doing something deceitful and mean will help ALS in your recovery. Good choice of words PB.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ALS:
<strong>The truth is that I did make my stand with the full truth there, laid it all out, and was shot down for it, even made out to be a jerk for doing it on top of all that.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, that is a very typical response from a WS. Every WS here has agreed with that. Why not let the dust settle for awhile?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by whipit:
<strong>consequences? yes. natural consequences? no. the moment als begins put something in motion with the intent of beating a deadline to remove his w's residency status, the natural-ness is gone. now if he decides with a clear heart and mind and happens to beat the deadline, then so be it. the consequences are as natural as a bear's activity in the woods.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree here. ALS, I think you are doing the right thing but for all the wrong reasons. Can you really do this to your W with a clear heart and mind and not feel any guilt? There is a difference between doing something to defend yourself and doing something to be a jerk.

Slow down! Think about the consequences of your actions! Everyone here is assuming that she is stalling for the sole purpose of staying in the country. ALS, you have said she wants to move back to Canada. You have said that she can stay in the US regardless of the 2 year issue. Why would she need to do this if she already has her citizenship on a silver platter. And that citizenship is for a country she doesn't want to stay in!

ALS, almost everyone here is assuming that is the reason why she is pushing for Dv. We all should know what happens when we assume something. Look at OM for example, he is assuming that the stories your W is telling him are true. Look at his response to you! Everyone here is saying how close-minded he is for not listening to the truth. Is that not what you are doing? And by extension most others here?

The simple truth ALS is that nobody but your W knows what her reasons are. Maybe all this time she has been vascilliating back and forth on the Dv issue, my W and I did. Now after your letter she has made up her mind. Again, that is EXACTLY what my W did!

How many times has it been said on the boards to never make a decision when you are all worked up? Hello? That is exactly what is happening. It is a proven fact that the more emotional we get the more of our brain shuts down and we get into the fight or flight mentality. That is part of our wireing from when we had to hunt for food for survival. That is what your W did. That is what you did after D-day. I have done the same thing. ALS, rise above that. You are a better man than that.

If you truely want a Dv because you feel no love for her and don't want your M back, than go ahead and file. If you are only filing because you want to screw her out of her citizenship, than that is wrong. If your W called you up tonight and said ALS, I want to work on our M. What would you do?

I am shocked and appalled at those that are supporting this vindictive behavior and I would have thought better of those people.

Sorry for the gripe but that is just my VERY humble opinion.

Good luck ALS.

ALS -

Just my two cents worth here. I am not as long winded tonight as hubby <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

In the height of my A I made some TERRIBLE decisions. Decisions that were based entirely on EMOTIONS! I remember sttsi telling me to take my time and think rationally b/c I was only acting out of emotions.

You and your W are doing the exact same thing here! Your wife is acting on emotions b/c of the A, and you are acting on your emotions b/c you are fed up with it (her?) I agree WHOLE HEARTEDLY with what STTSI has to say in his reply. Take some time and consider the consequences of your actions! It may seem like a BRILLIANT idea now, but in the morning it may seem like the worst idea that you ever had.

I understand that there comes a point where you have to "cut your losses and move on," but imvho, I don't think you have reached that point yet. I can sense that there is still hope that she will come around. That being said - wait on your decisions - take time to think about them. If she wants the Dv so badly, then let her file it, let her come to you. It is the same thing that I went through, ALS.

If you really want to do what is right for you, then THINK ABOUT YOUR DECISION for some time b4 you act on it. You have nothing to loose and everything to gain by being patient with her. I too, like STTSI, am appalled at some of the responses here. You have to search within your OWN heart and do what you feel is right for *YOU* You cannot file just b/c that is what everyone here thinks will be best, ALS - Think about it my friend, and do what is right in your heart.

Closing thought for you - Something that I've learned:
I've learned that sometimes when I am angry - I have the right to be angry, but that DOESN'T give me the right to be cruel!

Take care of yourself, ALS. STTSI and I are here for you!

ALS,
I've lurked on your thread as long as I've been on MB. You're further into this than me so I never had any useful advice.

I have to say though that I agree wholeheartedly with STTSI & Iamready2try. Getting her deported will not save your M. It would probably end all hope for it. In reading your previous posts I think you would regret doing it also.
JMHO

<small>[ June 05, 2003, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: hurting12 ]</small>

I'm gonna chime in here with a couple of thoughts...

First, if ALS's W is trying to manipulate the process, then later on during the 90-day time frame ALS will have to be on his toes for a false recovery effort by W. If she is in fact doing that now, she indeed will become somewhat desperate to halt the process.

That is REALLY going to get interesting as time goes by...

Second, as to the "forgive and move on" concept, I'm gonna play a little Devil's Advocate here. I, too, consider myself religious, being reared that way all my life with a Dad and Grandad as pastors.

I do understand and respect that each of us has different concepts and beliefs as to forgiveness and such. However, even God placed a time limit on forgiveness. Some are taught that the time ends at our death, and some believe that there is a certain time in our lives that we become "under conviction", and if we do not "answer the call", then our chance for forgiveness passes us by. Even so, there is a point of no return in that forgiveness is no longer offered to us.

And we then suffer the consequences.

I think a lot of us mortals possess the same thought process. We offer forgiveness, but not for eternity.

Just something I was pondering on...

Hang in there, ALS. Life does not end should you DV. It changes, and it will be totally up to you whether that is for the better, or for the worse. I have been DV'ed since 10/02, and am doing fine after my 14-year M ending due to an A by the XW. Not by MY decision, but by HERS. She was adamant about ending our M like yours is, and never even tried to work it out after I had sincerely offered.

You see, I finally learned that although I wanted my M to survive immensely, that is exactly what it was. A want. NOT a need. I had made a conscious commitment, and fully intended to honor that commitment, and to the best way I knew how at the time in order to make it as enjoyable and pleasant as I could. I did not NEED her to make my life a happy one. She was one who I preferred highly to enjoy my life with. Once I realized that, everything else was downhill.

You are on top of your mountain, ALS. You have done your best to show your W how to get to where you are, and to share the view with you.

Don't forfeit your magnificent view because she wants to wander around helplessly at the bottom.

However it goes, ALS will be fine.

HCII

Nice reply hcii. I really liked the part about a want and not a need. I was going to put something like that in my post but I forgot.

Very well put.

STTSI - posting under my W name as I am too lazy to log out and she is here laughing at my laziness. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ALostSoul:
Hmmm...This is interesting. Anyone here been through a divorce before?

Seems that I can start the 90 day divorce process without even her signature, even on a no-fault. I can at least go and file the claim and get the process started, all I need is to get some information from her and I'm good to go.

Of course, I need to get things signed and drop stuff off at the courthouse again within those 90 days, but it looks like I can actually start the process, even no-fault, without her even having to see or sign any papers.

Is that true?

ALS</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If it is true, and the laws would differ from state to state, then it does make one wonder why she hasn't done it herself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Still Trying To Save It:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cerri:
[qb]I wouldn't attempt to deport a WS simply because of an A... that would feel like revenge and nastiness to me.

I would... without a moment's pause... do whatever I could to deport an affair parnter who was in this country illegally. That would do a lot to end an affair and get some distance between the lovers.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If ALS's LB is "way, way negative" like he said than what is the point in ending the A if he doesn't love her and want her back? THAT seems like revenge and nastiness to me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This wasn't meant to be about ALS in particular, in fact it was meant as a clarification about whether to deport a spouse simply because they are having an A - which I wouldn't do. OR to deport an affair partner who is having an affair with one's spouse, which I would do (or attempt to do, it's not all that easy) without a second thought. Something I've heard WH suggest on more than one occassion.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cerri:
<strong>Ok, I would do it, in a heartbeat. Call the INS. Sign the papers.</strong>

STTSI: I am shocked to read these words! Again, I will repeat what I wrote above, THAT seems like revenge and nastiness to me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps it is. Even coaches can get caught up in the hurt of a client or friend and be angry at seeing that person being jerked around. So I take back the part about calling the INS. Calling her bluff and going ahead with paperwork? I stand by that.

C

<small>[ June 06, 2003, 06:38 AM: Message edited by: cerri ]</small>

Hey ALS -

How are things today? After sleeping on it for a night, have you thought any further about what it is that you want to do?

STTSI and I are worried about you. Shoot me an e-mail and let me know that you are okay today!

{{{{{hugs}}}}} from the two of us!

STTSI and I'mready:

Again, what Jack said...

You 2 continue 2 be an inspiration. ALS, are you listening? See the parallels? Don't lose sight of them. No matter what happens, no matter how this shakes down, your stbxw (are you at peace with the sound of that?? You'll need 2 be!) will still be a person. One needing a lifetime of further growth, certainly, but a person, nevertheless.

At least we're all starting 2 recognize on this thread, perhaps for the umpteenth time, that this forum can be pretty one-sided without intending 2 be. We haven't heard from ALS' W. We've only been 2nd-guessing what she's thinking and scheming (think about it, is this really likely?). Sure, we've got a copy of the script, but we're the only one's doing any commentary on how she's following it.

About forgiveness: Spacecase put this on our website some time ago, under "50 quotes about forgiveness.":

'Lewis B. Smedes - Forgive & Forget: Healing the Hurts We Don't Deserve

"We attach our feelings to the moment when we were hurt, endowing it with immortality. And we let it assault us every time it comes to mind. It travels with us, sleeps with us, hovers over us while we make love, and broods over us while we die. Our hate does not even have the decency to die when those we hate die--for it is a parasite sucking OUR blood, not theirs. There is only one remedy for it. [forgiveness]

You will know that forgiveness has begun when you recall those who hurt you and feel the power to wish them well.

Their pain [the injurer's pain at having injured you] and your pain create the point and counterpoint for the rhythm of reconciliation. When the beat of their pain is a response to the beat of yours, they have become truthful in their feelings...they have moved a step closer to a truthful reunion.

...Forgiving is not having to understand. Understanding may come later, in fragments, an insight here and a glimpse there, after forgiving.

You can forgive someone almost anything. But you cannot tolerate everything...We don't have to tolerate what people do just because we forgive them for doing it. Forgiving heals us personally. To tolerate everything only hurts us all in the long run."

-2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">STTSI: If ALS's LB is "way, way negative" like he said than what is the point in ending the A if he doesn't love her and want her back? THAT seems like revenge and nastiness to me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I still haven't given up on W, I won't give up on the M until a divorce is final, I am just starting to question her motives for waiting this long, and if it was all just a game to drag out the M only for her own gain.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">STTSI: What do you mean not a peep? For two days she has done nothing but try to get in contact with you. Now all of a sudden you try and she has stepped back and it is because she wants to stall a Dv? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, it's up for your consideration -- But look at W and OM's reactions to the PB letter earlier this week. Look at her anger. It doesn't work that fast. I know you're suggesting that she is having second thoughts about Dv and that's why she is stalling, but the more obvious answer is that she is stalling solely on the basis of making her 2 year marriage cutoff.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with PB here. I don't see how doing something deceitful and mean will help ALS in your recovery. Good choice of words PB.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have no intention of calling the INS on her right now. But I do feel that if she hasn't wanted the marriage for months, yet was deceitfully dragging it out just for her own immigration reasons, she doesn't have the right for that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree here. ALS, I think you are doing the right thing but for all the wrong reasons. Can you really do this to your W with a clear heart and mind and not feel any guilt? There is a difference between doing something to defend yourself and doing something to be a jerk. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not sure still how I feel about her being able to stay here. Like Cerri said, it's not being vindictive, it's just being fair. If she doesn't want to be married to me, and really only lived with me as a wife for a year, does she have the right to stay here? It's not about trying to cause her harm, it's a clear cut case of right and wrong.

I could understand it if she even up front with me, but again I think she may know of this 2 year deadline, and has been SNEAKY about it -- Had she been up front and asked me point blank if I would sign something to let her stay post-divorce, that would be another consideration. But the way I feel now is that she used me to drag this out just long enough so she could stay without needing my assistance.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you truely want a Dv because you feel no love for her and don't want your M back, than go ahead and file. If you are only filing because you want to screw her out of her citizenship, than that is wrong. If your W called you up tonight and said ALS, I want to work on our M. What would you do? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not a vindictive guy. If we're divorced regardless, it doesn't really matter where she lives, I suppose. But if she has been playing this all along just to drag out the process for her citizenship, I consider it another very hurtful betrayal. Leaving me for another guy, then on top of that, still using my name and a tainted marriage to get her citizenshiup anyway, hoping I won't notice. It's just dirty.

If she called and said she wanted to work on the marriage, and meant it, even before the divorce was final, I'd still be open to it. I believe in my marriage.

This is going to take forever to keep quoting, so I'll stop...But STTSI and Ready2Try, I know where you are coming from. I should not make decisions in haste or base them on my emotions. Cerri was very upset yesterday for me when it became pretty apparent what W was up to. I was upset too.

The bottom line is that W was around this week yet didn't want to meet about papers until NEXT week, conveniently under 90 days from our 2nd anniversary. W was obviously around all week long calling, so she WAS available. Car was not in the shop, she pulled right up to the house in it. And finally, given the opportunity to file divorce papers this week, she has disappeared off the planet suddenly. Sure, an optimist would say she is having second thoughts -- But when she suddenly resurfaces next week all ready to go with the papers, we'll know why she waited.

Hurting12: Thanks for your thoughts as well. I am not a mean, evil, vindictive guy. I won't pursue getting W deported. I resent the fact that I was not good enough to be married to but good enough to be used to stay here, though. I do not think that was fair. If I had a definitive yes/no decision on if she could stay, I can honestly say I'm not sure what I'd do. But I don't expect that will come anyway. As it was earlier stated, the INS has bigger fish to fry. Even waiting 2 years for her probably wasn't necessary, but it does ensure her no issues so I can she why she'd do it.

More in a bit.

ALS

I will get to all replies eventually, just skipping around a bit.

<strong>Cerri: If it is true, and the laws would differ from state to state, then it does make one wonder why she hasn't done it herself. </strong>

This IS an interesting question, though I think that W hasn't really concerned herself too much with the process right now. She knows I have to be willing or the process will stall. So even if she knew she could file without me, she had to know that I wouldn't ruin that by not signing. So I don't see why she'd even start if she thought I would refuse to sign as I've been indicating.

Now, the forms I know she has been using were pretty bad. I've found a much better set that walks me through the entire process. And it does indicate that I can go to the court and start the filing process (start the 90 day countdown) on my own. I will need to then meet with W to have things signed and take a trip back to the courthouse.

Really the only decision I need to make now is if I want to take that step. I only need a few tidbits of info from W before I file. W knows this is not what I want. But by doing so, I send the message that I am ready to move on, and ready to let go and let her move on. She gets exactly what she wants. And I get 90 days for her to change her mind, if it's meant to be. If not, I still feel I have gone out on top.

Some of you mentioned that the angry response is a normal one for a WS. But Kily and Cerri have also been there, and their opinion was that it might be time to give her what she wants, the divorce, and let her go from there. It certainly does put me back in the driver's seat and takes me out of the victim role, the guy hanging on to prolong the divorce that his wife has been begging for all along.

<strong>Cerri: Perhaps it is. Even coaches can get caught up in the hurt of a client or friend and be angry at seeing that person being jerked around. So I take back the part about calling the INS. Calling her bluff and going ahead with paperwork? I stand by that.</strong>

I still feel like I have a lot more to say, and I owe more responses. There has to be a way to summarize this to demonstrate where my mind is right now.

I think the bottom line is that I need to decide if waiting on the divorce for another month, even two, has a chance of changing anything, given all that I have seen and heard. Honestly, my faith in that is very low right now. If that is what is meant to be, then yes, I'd rather start the process on my own, my way, on my terms and timetable, then wait 2 more months.

I just need to figure out what the right thing for me to do for myself and my own pride, feelings, and convinctions should be.

It's not a question of trying to get her deported. That issue may or may not come up months from now. Today, it's just a simple question of do I want to prolong the fight or simply turn around, give in, and let her see how she handles things once she gets all she wants. Maybe with nothing left to complain about, she'll see it wasn't me standing in her way at all.

ALS

Okay, ALS. Put your helmet on. I haven't swung that ebony 2x4 in a long time, and I'm itchin' 2! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

"I am just starting to question her motives for waiting this long, and if it was all just a game to drag out the M only for her own gain."

2uestion all you want, if you want. I think this is an exercise in mental masturbation, though. You've got better things 2 do with that brain of yours.

"Well, it's up for your consideration -- But look at W and OM's reactions to the PB letter earlier this week. Look at her anger. It doesn't work that fast."

What doesn't work that fast? Their anger?? Of course it does! Every d****d time, it does! My W got as angry when I walked out without a word and stayed away for a week last July. And that was NOTHING like what you 2 are going through.

"I know you're suggesting that she is having second thoughts about Dv and that's why she is stalling, but the more obvious answer is that she is stalling solely on the basis of making her 2 year marriage cutoff."

I don't understand how this is "more obvious." 2 me, it isn't obvious at all. Granted, it may become obvious if she's suddenly all perky about signing next week, but it isn't now. She was anxious back at the beginning of this thread, in March. Anxious, seemingly, only she never brought the papers with her for you 2 sign. Very typical of WSs having 2nd thoughts and fence-sitting. If she were aware of this INS thing back then, she'd have been a fool 2 keep asking for a DV from you, with so much time when things could "go wrong" by you signing before her 2 years have been met. I guess I just don't believe it. I don't think she's thinking clearly enough 2 be clever, but even if she is, where's the sweat off your stones 2 let her?

"I'm not sure still how I feel about her being able to stay here. Like Cerri said, it's not being vindictive, it's just being fair."

Which Monty Python was it where they said "He nailed my head 2 the floor once, but I had it coming. He's cruel, but fair." Are you being creul, but fair here?

"If she doesn't want to be married to me, and really only lived with me as a wife for a year, does she have the right to stay here? It's not about trying to cause her harm, it's a clear cut case of right and wrong."

Bull feathers. It's not clear cut at all. Don't forget that she lived with you for years before that, got pregnant with you, and stayed with you and M'd you after the abortion. She's messed up, 2 be sure, but even if she perks up on Monday morning at 6am sharp, I wouldn't call this clear cut.

"I could understand it if she even up front with me, but again I think she may know of this 2 year deadline, and has been SNEAKY about it -- Had she been up front and asked me point blank if I would sign something to let her stay post-divorce, that would be another consideration. But the way I feel now is that she used me to drag this out just long enough so she could stay without needing my assistance."

Hm... Have you thought about being "up front" with her about what you're suspecting? Or would you prefer 2 be as sneaky as you perceive her 2 be and spring it on her? Sorry 2 be so harsh with you.

"If she called and said she wanted to work on the marriage, and meant it, even before the divorce was final, I'd still be open to it. I believe in my marriage."

How likely do you think this could be if she knew what we were talking about here? What if the INS thing hasn't crossed her mind? I don't know what the odds are one way or the other, but does it really matter anyway? Assuming is like expecting: You can do it if you want 2, but it won't get you what you think you want.

"I should not make decisions in haste or base them on my emotions. Cerri was very upset yesterday for me when it became pretty apparent what W was up to. I was upset too."

And the only thing you can do 2 remain sane is 2 let go of this resentment.

"The bottom line is that W was around this week yet didn't want to meet about papers until NEXT week, conveniently under 90 days from our 2nd anniversary."

Again, so what? Like Cerri pointed out, she's not here illegally, and neither is OM.

"W was obviously around all week long calling, so she WAS available."

And so, if she had any relization of this INS thing at all, it happened after the last attempt 2 call you, because we KNOW she was still asking for a DV in the email. THINK. But more importantly, don't get so wrapped around the axle about what you assume she's scheming.

"And finally, given the opportunity to file divorce papers this week, she has disappeared off the planet suddenly. Sure, an optimist would say she is having second thoughts -- But when she suddenly resurfaces next week all ready to go with the papers, we'll know why she waited."

Ink me as one of the optimists. When making assumptions, always a dangerous and foolhardy thing 2 do anyway, consider all possibilities. Exclude none.

Time 2 focus your energies inward, ALS.
-2long

ALS-

Just pondering in this little pea brain of mine...

I had presented this question about immigration and marrying you to stay here and all a while back in this thread...it was basically dismissed. For some reason, yesterday it became the sole focus...

So, regardless of her intentions, or games, or whatever, I was wondering if you might be grabbing onto this as a way to end the cycle. To take you out of the pain in a way that makes you feel entitled. I mean, after all, you now have a REASON to divorce her with complete justification. Plan-B is hard and it sucks waiting around for the imagined inevitable outcome...isn't it much easier to "D" because I have a reason then to face the fear and say...I believed in this and regardless of what appears, I'm holding on to my dreams until I know in my heart that it's over....

Do I think W was capable of that level of manipulation? Yes. THe question I pose to you is: "Is this consistent with who she has been during the A?"

After thinking about it for a time though, I realized something else, Does it REALLY matter? She is in the FOG and has been manipulating you from day one. This is more of the same. If she is going to come around she will, regardless of her "status". It doesn't matter how she got to where she is, she's where she is.

She will have to be accountable to someone someday. Let that be the comfort that you take with you as you go to bed.

I hope this screwed your thoughts up some. It certainly messed mine up!

So now I will ask: "Do you want to be right? Or "do you want to be married?"

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I am overwhelmed with work today, but I have read all of these posts and promise I will come back and address all of you eventually. Until then, I welcome any more opinions from all of you on this, as it really is a tough subject and decision (is it ever easy, though?)

But Kily, just to address a couple quick things from your last post:

Of course I'd rather be married over all other things. I remain willing to do whatever it takes for W to save the marriage, if she is only willing. The discouraging event this week was the realization that MAYBE (I know there is and may never be a way to truly prove this) she has been delaying the divorce just long enough to save her status here.

I did dismiss your claim earlier that she married me just to stay here, and I still do. As I said earlier, there is no doubt in my mind she loved me when she married me. And for around 6-8 months since that date. So like I said, since the marriage was entered into in good faith, I do believe the law states that she is legally entitled to stay here,

I could lie and say all I want to try and get her deported, but the plain truth is that I would be lying to myself as well -- I know she loved me when we got married, and I am sure she did not marry me only so she could remain in this country. Her motivation to STAY may have changed since then, but before she married me, all she had WAS me. Now she has OM and her job to lose if she leaves. So at this point, I think she WOULD marry someone to stay here for THAT reason alone perhaps. But when we got married, I do agree she married me for ME.

But I still do not believe that makes it right, if she's been doing this, to sneakily prolong the marriage even though she wants out only to use it to further her ease of stay here.

If she wants out of the marriage, she should be willing to face those consequences, not be able to use the marriage long enough to further her own interests. That is the big problem that Cerri, myself, and some others had yesterday. It wasn't that we felt she deserved to be deported for having an A, it was that, IF she indeed HAS been underhandedly delaying the divorce ONLY because she wants to use the marriage to stay, then rightfully she should not be able to use a 2 year marriage as an excuse.

Really, for all intensive purposes, this has been a 13 month marriage. Not a 24 month one.

Like I said, we may never know what her motivations were, even if I were to ask. She may not be delaying for that reason. But the timetable was too close to ignore. Back in March, if you recall, I told her I would sign the papers, told her to bring them to me. She didn't, and then theories went wild that she wasn't sure, having second thoughts, etc.

It was quiet, but then suddenly, JUST IN TIME for 90 days to pass before 2 years, she is back and begging for the divorce. My theory: After I agreed to sign, she looked up the law. Saw that she needed 2 years in marriage to have no INS issues at all to deal with. So she decided to wait, since she knew I was trying to wait as well. Not a push until about 2 weeks ago, then when I agree to meet her, she carefully sets the meeting date up PAST the 90 day before 2 year cutoff. Again: Too much coincidence to just ignore.

Let me throw this out here: How many people think that, ASSUMING if this is the game she's been playing, divorcing her is the right thing to do on that basis? Take the affair, and add in the fact she used me to prolong the marriage (on paper) just to allow herself to stay in the US, nothing more? Does that change things at all, or, do you think that shouldn't change my opinion of her or the marriage any more than before I learned this?

ALS

Okay, ALS:

Assume whatever you want. I think that, since you're in plan B and have been for what, 2 weeks?, that you should stay in plan B for a while longer.

-2long

2long: I appreciate your 2x4 and your candor. Believe me, I am reading, and re-reading what you have said and giving it all some serious thought. I mean that. Just a couple quick points I want to make from your recent post (I will address more later):

What doesn't work that fast? Their anger?? Of course it does! Every d****d time, it does! My W got as angry when I walked out without a word and stayed away for a week last July. And that was NOTHING like what you 2 are going through.

No, actually I mean Plan B doesn't work that fast to make her reconsider the divorce. She wanted the divorce, I sent the PB letter, she REALLY got angry and again stated the wanted the divorce this past Tuesday. All I'm saying is yesterday was Thursday, Plan B doesn't work that fast that she was having second thoughts about the divorce 2 days later. I don't see that as being likely. Impossible, no. Of course not. It's just MORE LIKELY that she is delaying due to the anniversary date, NOT because she is fence sitting all of a sudden. But you are correct in that either state of mind IS possible.

I don't understand how this is "more obvious." 2 me, it isn't obvious at all. Granted, it may become obvious if she's suddenly all perky about signing next week, but it isn't now. She was anxious back at the beginning of this thread, in March. Anxious, seemingly, only she never brought the papers with her for you 2 sign. Very typical of WSs having 2nd thoughts and fence-sitting. If she were aware of this INS thing back then, she'd have been a fool 2 keep asking for a DV from you, with so much time when things could "go wrong" by you signing before her 2 years have been met. I guess I just don't believe it. I don't think she's thinking clearly enough 2 be clever, but even if she is, where's the sweat off your stones 2 let her?


Again, you may be right, and I may be right. And we may never know which one of us was right. I just wanted everyone to see the possibility that her delaying the divorce from March until now was not because she was reconsidering or having second thoughts. Case in point, and again, she may not mean it, but her email response to me this week said, bluntly, that she has ALWAYS wanted the divorce and that she told me that MONTHS ago.

So, if that's true, then she had no reason not to push to get those papers to me in these last 3 months...UNLESS she learned of the INS requirement. Either that or she's lying, and she DID have second thoughts, or she was just lazy. But if she wanted that divorce as bad as it seems she does, I see the more likely reason she's held off this long as being selfish in nature.

Again, either scenario IS possible. Either she was having second thoughts, or she was deliberately waiting for 2 years. One or the other. I guess personally, I'm just leaning more towards the latter given her demeanor and the coincidence of the date she wanted to meet.

ALS

Oh, and I officially sent the PB letter to her on May 1st, so almost 5 weeks of PB now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

ALS

OK, apparently I struck a cord last night and I need to respond. First you question ALS, then to my responses.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ALostSoul:
<strong>Let me throw this out here: How many people think that, ASSUMING if this is the game she's been playing, divorcing her is the right thing to do on that basis? Take the affair, and add in the fact she used me to prolong the marriage (on paper) just to allow herself to stay in the US, nothing more? Does that change things at all, or, do you think that shouldn't change my opinion of her or the marriage any more than before I learned this?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is it a game? Sure. She has been playing the game of what makes ME happy and you are playing the game of how can I, ALS, get my M back and come out alive. It is a sick and twisted game but a game it is.

Is divorcing her the right thing? That to me is a question only you can answer, ALS. How important were your vows to you? Now I will assume here and say that your vows are important to you or you wouldn't still be here.

If her sole intention lately (post D-day) has been to use you for citizenship, than why push for Dv in March? It just doesn't add up.

Should you feel used? Yeah, sure. You have been used. She has been fence-sitting for some time now. Do you really think she has looked into the laws and says "Gosh, I hate ALS, he is such a bad guy. But IF I wait a few more days or months than for sure I can stay here in the US, but if I leave that mean guy than I might get shipped back. Maybe I will use ALS for a little while longer."

She is in the fog and not thinking clearly. It also seems that some here may be in a fog of our own. Like Cerri said, she was upset and acted out of anger. We all do from time to time, there is nothing wrong with that, that is human. What we need to do is take the facts and like 2long said look at them from every angle before making a decision.

Now on to other responses. First let me say 2long you rock. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Again sometimes we get wrapped up in the moment and make bad decisions, those decisions may last a lifetime.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cerri:
<strong>This wasn't meant to be about ALS in particular, in fact it was meant as a clarification about whether to deport a spouse simply because they are having an A - which I wouldn't do. OR to deport an affair partner who is having an affair with one's spouse, which I would do (or attempt to do, it's not all that easy) without a second thought.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If he still wants his M AND IF OM is from out of the country than I agree try and deport, yes. If he, or anyother BS, doesn't want their M THAN that action would seem vindictive.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>You 2 continue 2 be an inspiration. ALS, are you listening? See the parallels? Don't lose sight of them.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks 2long <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ALS, remember ALL the parallels my W and I have mentioned to you? Remember what we emaild to you last night regarding how I felt used? Try and think clearly.
2long, nice lines about forgiveness!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ALS:
<strong>Well, it's up for your consideration -- But look at W and OM's reactions to the PB letter earlier this week. Look at her anger. It doesn't work that fast. I know you're suggesting that she is having second thoughts about Dv and that's why she is stalling, but the more obvious answer is that she is stalling solely on the basis of making her 2 year marriage cutoff.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Plan B doesn't work that fast you are right, but as you know emotions do. Yeah she is angry, so are you. As well you deserve to be. It is how you use that anger that matters. I am not really suggesting that she is reconsidering Dv or not. Maybe she is trying to figure out your strong change of opinion. Before it was I want my M, now 1 week later it is lets Dv NOW! Remember emotions work fast.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Kily:
<strong>So now I will ask: "Do you want to be right? Or "do you want to be married?"</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ahhh, yes. I love this line and it one I too need to take to heart in my own M, but it is very fitting here also. Thanks Kily!

ALS, you mentioned that she may be acting sneaky to stay in the country. Again I say, HELLO!! She is having an A. Of course she is acting sneaky. You also have been acting sneaky. WS's act sneaky to hide the A and keep it from their spouse and BS's act sneaky to uncover the A.

If you are really into conspiricy theories, than maybe ol' 2long is really your W posting under that name. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Maybe that is why he is supportive of saving the M for now so that she can get her 2 years worth. Think of the connection, 2long=2years!!!!! Maybe, you never know.

And that is the point here is that we may never know what she is thinking.

Gotta run for now. Sorry for picking on you, 2long, nut I thought you could take it. And I also like the similarities with the #2.

Another great response by STTSI. I have company this weekend so I don't have a lot of time here, I will catch up as soon as I can.

In the meantime, got this from W today. She is now stalling the process:

I will drop the papers off some time next week, so you can look at them. In all honesty I can not afford to get the car transfered and file the papers the same day. I don't have that kind of money. I will meet you on the 20th.

I am going to reply and let her know I will file and she can pay me back when she has the money. I want to file early next week, I will let her know my intention of that. She doesn't know I am purchasing new forms, but these are much better than the ones she has that I suspect won't fly legally. All I need from her is her new mailing address to complete the forms. We'll see how cooperative she is with it, if she cooperates that I will at least know she wasn't trying to prolong things.

She has wanted this divorce badly now, so the fact I am taking the initiative to do all of this SHOULD have her eager to help get it done. If she isn't, I will be suspicious. And no, I won't sense it's because she is having second thoughts on the Dv. Gut instinct just tells me that's not the case. She carefully waited 2 days (until the weekend) to even reply to me on my last request.

I am ready to take the initiative now. Plan B will continue afterwards, this is all just part of the process of what I feel I need to do for myself right now. If nothing changes in 90 days, I'll have no regrets that I filed.

ALS

als ... hmmm. been thinking about this all day. she's stalling for some reason. so many theories, so little time. is it immigration? is it because she doesn't want to divorce? is it both? the irrationality makes my head swim.