I realize there's no way to know for SURE...But I think the more likely possibiility is immigration, only because she has never once in 7 months showed any sign of not wanting the divorce.

We'll know more this week, as I am going to basically let her know I'm filing without her anyway (I am starting the process on my own). She should want this, if she doesn't, I'm almost positive it's immigration.

And if she doesn't want the divorce, it's time for her to just speak up and say so. Unless she does that, my assumption is the other.

ALS

Well, she is cooperating, so that's good. I'd rather have had this than resistance. At least she is consistant.

She sent this in response to an email I sent to let her know I needed her address and that I would be filing this week, I don't even need to see her to do so:


if you do it without signatures I was under the impression it take 2 years. Whatever works though.

(Address)

Also I would appreciate it if you would contact (credit card company names) and have me removed from your account. As far as they are concerned I am a joint holder in the account. So this would be to your benefit as well. Both cards show up on my credit report. Which means if I contacted them today, they would be required to send me a copy of the card.

Thank you.


I'm sure she may be a little thrown off by my sudden initiative, but that's okay. I am at peace with the decision to handle it this way.

Believe me, I am not giving up completely, I will still continue to Plan B and be as out of contact as possible throughout the process. She has agreed to pay for the filing costs even though I will be paying for it up front myself this week (after, as you saw, she delayed earlier due to lack of funds.) Hopefully she will keep her word to me on that and pay me back.

I want you all to know that I gave this a great deal of thought, and decided after reading what W had to say to me after the PB letters were sent, regarding her desire for divorce and OM's backing up of her as well, I felt this was a way to give her what she wanted.

If things are civil between us when we see each other, depending on the impression I get from her, Cerri has still recommended (and I agree) that I make her aware that the door is still open over the next 90 days should she change her mind.

I realize I only really Plan B'ed for a bit over a month, and things may change in the next 3 months while the divorce proceeds, but I don't have a LOT of faith in that happening. So right now, I feel this was the correct choice for me.

Hopefully I haven't let any of you down. I just decided that given her sudden push for divorce as well as her attitude and words in email lately, I will give her what she wants and stop being seen as such a negative force in her life. This way, I can truly detach, and not allow her to blame me for any issues or problems that she may have.

ALS

<small>[ June 08, 2003, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: ALostSoul ]</small>

By the way, I also hope that, just because I am filing this week, that all of my friends here reading this won't abandon me!

I know that filing is sort of a non-MB approach, and that in most cases, the path to follow here is to use the MB approach until the WS files. In my case, I felt that it was time I take control of the process and do this for myself and my own well-being. I hope you can understand that I have given this considerable thought and that this is my best approach for myself and for W right now.

I believe as unlikely as it is, this is now the best method to salvage the M. To completely let go and set W free, then detach. I still love W and would be willing to reconcile, don't think my filing is changing that. And I will continue to be here to post, share my experiences, and hopefully get some more of the fantastic advice that you all have offered me for these past months.

I have learned and grown a great deal, and I want to thank you all for your help so far. I hope that, despite my entering the divorce process, you will continue to chat with me, maybe even give me hope, and support. I'd miss you all otherwise! I have come a long way, and I am happy with the person that I am, despite the fact I have been compelled to take this action, and I am going to be fine regardless of the outcome.

Please stick around!

ALS

you nuts? yer stuck with us.

Thanks man.

There's one thing I can say for sure as I go through these papers and this filing process: I know it would have taken FOREVER if she did it, unless she enlisted a lawyer or a professional of some sort to help her.

The papers we had (and she was using) would never have been accepted, and the process is so cumbersome...Well, I'm having a lot of trouble with it myself and I even have a very good set of documents here.

Anyway, it looks like I will be able to start the process tomorrow -- But then the next step, the actual notarized stuff, WE initiate 90 days from now (no SOONER than 90 days). After that, you sign, file MORE papers...Then you wait until 10 days, file ANOTHER set of papers...Then you wait for your divorce.

In short, the process is going to take way more than 90 days, and she'll probably end up getting her residency requirements here anyway just because the process is so damn slow. In that case, I have been questioning why I didn't just let her fumble through the process without my help.

But again, I kept coming back to my feelings about her actions over the past 7 months, and I do feel it's time I take a stand for myself and drive this process. I really wouldn't want to prolong a divorce with W unless I felt it would change her opinion of me, and I am fairly certain that my making it tougher for her wouldn't win me any favors. Maybe she'll wonder why I'm being so helpful with it all of a sudden.

The one thing I hate doing though, in this, is that I am giving her what I think she always wanted: A very easy way out. With me driving the process, she just signs where and when I tell her, and she gets her divorce. I'm the one who has to prepare everything, visit the court like 5 times, etc etc.

So it's still been a day filled with questions for me, though ultimately in the end, I feel this is the lesser of two evils as far as my choices go. This way I get to take control, ensure my financial stability, and also give W what she wants and no longer appear as the wall between her happiness to her anymore.

ALS

Don't you dare leave, or we'll have to hunt you down. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I hate that this is so easy for her too. That's probably not nice....my Grandmother would say "Don't hate Star!"

I won't leave. I love you all! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

That's the worst part of it all, really, that in getting my dignity back, I also make it very easy for her to have this divorce.

But in a way, I have tolerated a lot and I don't feel I have given up on her. If there's even a small chance of any sort of progress, I think the first step is to stop standing in the way of her divorce. Of course, I could have just agreed to sign whatever she put in front of me, and watched her wrestle with all the legal issues, failings, etc, as well. That might have been a smarter approach, if only for her to earn the divorce. But in a way, I don't think I want the process to be prolonged either, oddly enough. I don't think a long, difficult divorce is going to save the marriage.

It'll be interesting to see what everyone else thinks, though.

ALS

Just to keep everyone in the loop:

I had earlier asked W if she had a certified copy of our marriage certificate, as I need one to file the divorce. She does, but she tells me she plans to order one and it may have to be sent to "your house" (first she's said that, sad to see) because she needs another one of her own.

So here's my question -- Why would she need a certified copy of the marriage certificate, hmmm? Can't think of anything else other than her planning to file it with the INS to act as if she is still married when the time comes.

If she asks me to sign a paper stating that we are still happily married for the INS while a divorce process is going on, I don't think I will in good conscience be able to do that. I am not going to lie for her. The INS should at least know the status of the situation, then the decision is up to them.

That's the latest. Probably the most email W and I exchanged in a day since D-Day, funny how responsive she can be now that Dv has started.

ALS

<small>[ June 08, 2003, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: ALostSoul ]</small>

ALS-

Ask w for her copy to expedite things. Tell her that she can have the "other" when it arrives. She does seem to be stalling things here...

Give it time...she may be having second thoughts. We all could be wrong about her.

Actually I have since found a copy so told her I don't need hers this morning, and that I planned to file today. The 90 day clock will start ticking as of today then. I don't think she was stalling. She had offered to give me her copy, said she would drop it off this week. She was just going to order a replacement.

Also sent her a copy of the property settlement agreement which I asked her to look over and be ready to sign the next time we meet up to do the car.

After that, no contact needed for 90 days until the next set of paperwork can be filed.

ALS

<small>[ June 09, 2003, 06:56 AM: Message edited by: ALostSoul ]</small>

ALS- My W and I are sad for you today. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Like I mentioned earlier, I said that I think you are doing the right thing but for the wrong reason. In another words, I think the Dv is the right thing eventually. But, if you are doing this to try and get her back or to prove a point you are doing it for the wrong reason.

I can't remember where I saw it but the statistics show that spouses who file for Dv to snap their spouse into reality seldom get what they wanted, their spouse back.

Good luck, ALS, my W and I are here for you.

And no, you can't get rid of us that easily! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

STTSI and wife -

Believe me, this was a very difficult decision for me. I realize that filing is not a tool to get your spouse back. And I don't expect that it will do anything of the sort. But what I did realize is that nothing was going to change as long as I was seen as this wall between her and her "happiness".

I don't regret the fact I am filing, I am ready for this after almost 8 months of a continuing affair with no sign of reconciliation. I have been as patient as possible. This is not being used as a tactic to shock her into reality or prove a point. It is just my acceptance of the words she has said to me, as well as taking back control of my life.

I basically had two choices this month: File myself, properly, or let her struggle through the process on her own, drag my feet, make it long and difficult, and drag the divorce out for 6 months or more. I simply decided that I did not want to drag out the process.

What I do regret is that this is making it so easy for her. Perhaps the proper approach was to just tell her to go ahead with the divorce and cooperate, but make her do all of the work with the paperwork and the filing. I'm not sure. But I don't feel I can deal with a long, drawn out divorce anyway. I don't think time is going to change her opinion of me. But aside from having to pay for this, she really is getting the easy way out.

ALS

HA! Thought you'd got rid of me didn't you... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> LOL Not so easy is it??

When you and I first started working together way back before the holidays we talked about some different things. One of those was that as the BS with no kids there is no biblical (if you're Christian) or ethical stricture that requires you to do anything to save the marriage. If your spouse is being unfaithful you have the right to end it, plain and simple. Walk away, heal, move on.

When there are children involved it becomes ethically and emotionally far more complex. And that's where I really beg and plead to keep people working towards reconciliation when all hope seems gone. Children are forever affected (not damaged, affected) by the divorce of their parents and it makes their relationships that much more difficult as they move into adulthood.

Because I feel so strongly about marriage being more than a legal contract I encourage anyone to do what they can to save their marriage even when there aren't children involved and even when it seems impossible.

What I'm hearing you say, and correct me if I'm wrong, (like I would have to worry that you wouldn't <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) is that you are filing now to call her bluff about wanting the dv, to see if she'll stall and thereby give you a clue about the immigration thing, to drop your end of the tug of war rope, and to be able to have some peace.

All of those are valid reasons. Will they get her back? I don't know. Will dragging out the process and making it difficult get her back? I don't know. Will anything you do or not do get her back? I don't know that either.

What I do know is that when the affair ends, which it probably will, if she has any thoughts at all about reconsidering you as a partner, then YOU need to be open to that idea for it to happen. If you are so tired of it all and so hurt and so angry that you don't want to see her again, then there really is no hope.

The things we did this past week, sending the PBL to OM and to her family... are really a brief return to Plan A. They are contact oriented, and they certainly don't keep you out of the line of fire or from dealing with the A... they don't do what Plan B is all about which is protect you from further pain.

The only way that Plan B "works" is if you are being protected and if there are no further hits to your LBank. That's what Plan B is. It's all about you. Now if she's angry, hostile, reconsidering, trying to get your attention in one way or another.... that's your efforts in Plan A beginning to show fruit.

Anyway, back to filing. I like dropping the end of the rope. It removes you as the source of all her problems and troubles. Now she has only herself to look at when she's depressed or when life isn't going so well. It takes you out of the picture as the bad guy.

The question is how to let her know that the door is open without it sounding like pressure from you.

C

One other thing I wanted to mention today.... before I go mow the wilderness.... is this.

Over the weekend we rented the movie Unfaithful with Richard Gere. It was incredible. I have never seen such an amazingly accurate portrayal of the dymanics of what women experience when they gradually get drawn into an affair.

The nuances of emotion, the pain, the angst, the confusion, the fog, the addiction... they were all there. And then the husband's suspicions and lost attempts to draw her back.

It showed so well that everyone gets hurt in affairs. Everyone. There was a scene at the end where the wife is thinking back to the moment she met the OM, and instead of accepting his invitation to coffee she sees herself getting into a taxi, waving goodbye, and going home.

I say this over and over again, and unless you have been there you cannot know how true this is on a primal level.... everyone who has had an affair goes back to that deciding moment and wishes they had taken the other path. Turned away, said goodbye, not answered that first email. We want to go home and find that our homes and our lives are intact. And that even though they are not perfect they are not nearly as complex and pain filled as they have become due to our infidelity.

Now, I want to say loud and clear... if you are very early in recovery or if you are in the midst of a spouse's affair THINK VERY HARD BEFORE YOU SEE THIS MOVIE. It is very triggering and will be exceptionally painful. If you are at a point where you can deal with those things peacefully and detachedly, then see it but be prepared.

C

DEar ALS:

In my very humble opinion, at this point in your M it is all about you. If you can protect yourself by filing I am all for it.

Your W is on her own journey.

You my friend will grow and prosper.

Your decisions are just that yours and we are all here for you regardless.

I personally feel letting her go with dignity and class does two things a) It is the best revenge as she will think about this as her relationship with OM changes to full time and she faces her unresovled problems again b) it is the best chance now of having her come back if you still want that.

Be business like, calm and confident. If you want to let her know the door is still open then do it.

Peace my friend

Jack

<small>[ June 09, 2003, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: willmakeitwork ]</small>

Hi Cerri, thanks for sticking with me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


What I'm hearing you say, and correct me if I'm wrong, (like I would have to worry that you wouldn't) is that you are filing now to call her bluff about wanting the dv...

Calling her bluff on the divorce: In a way, yes, though I really think "bluff" is a bad term to use, I think she is ready for the divorce process to start, whether the INS 2 year rule had anything to do with that, I'm not sure. I do want to share something with you though, this came from an anonymous post on an INS webboard we used to use when we were working on her status adjustment. This was posted on Friday:


How would INS find out if I am divorced or not? I am a conditional permanent resident and my marriage is going through a hard time. I have to apply for the removal of conditions by next month, July 2003. What are my options? If I file for divorce next week, can it be hidden from INS?
Any advice would be appreciated.


Now, I'm not saying this is her. Again, that's a big assumption to make. But I do want to show that yes, there are people who get in this situation, the same one she is in (she will also need to file her "removal of conditions" and can do so within 90 days of her 2-year status adjustment anniversary). And yes, these people do look for ways to make it look like they are not divorcing so they can stay here without problems.

I don't think that, back in March, she had the intention of prolonging the divorce. But it's possible that once I accepted her proposal in March, she THEN discovered the INS rule (or looked it up) and then at that point decided to postpone until June. But now, I don't think her divorce desire was a "bluff" any longer.


to see if she'll stall and thereby give you a clue about the immigration thing...


We may not know this for a very long time. We have 90 days until the next round of papers must be filed after today, we'll see then how available she is to sign those. My plan is to have them signed right away, and set it up well in advance.

to drop your end of the tug of war rope

Yes, this is very true. I like this analogy. As long as I was making a divorce difficult for her, I was pulling on the rope, I was a tangible force for her to blame any unhappiness on. By letting go, this can no longer be her excuse to herself or others for any unhappiness or depression she might experience. I am now out of the picture.

and to be able to have some peace.

This is the big one for me. I did not feel her divorce process was going to give me peace. It would have been constant contact, questions, issues. This way I have control of the process, and know when contact is and isn't necessary. I know, for example, that after we transfer the car title and I give her the papers, I have no need for contact with her for 90 days.

All of those are valid reasons. Will they get her back? I don't know. Will dragging out the process and making it difficult get her back? I don't know. Will anything you do or not do get her back? I don't know that either.

Right. We have no way of knowing if filing will make things better, worse, or the same.

What I do know is that when the affair ends, which it probably will, if she has any thoughts at all about reconsidering you as a partner, then YOU need to be open to that idea for it to happen. If you are so tired of it all and so hurt and so angry that you don't want to see her again, then there really is no hope.

At this stage, this is why I chose to file. After the filing is done, I can finally FINALLY detach and move on with myself. I will still hold love for my W should she come to me, but I will also have finally taken myself out of the equation completely. This is the way. I need to preserve that last love I have before it's gone from all of this constant exposure to the A.

The only way that Plan B "works" is if you are being protected and if there are no further hits to your LBank. That's what Plan B is. It's all about you. Now if she's angry, hostile, reconsidering, trying to get your attention in one way or another.... that's your efforts in Plan A beginning to show fruit.

So maybe those efforts we did last week did show a little fruit in Plan A after all? Sure was a lot of anger there. Who knows. But I agree that PB is what I need now, and this is the way I need to do it.

Anyway, back to filing. I like dropping the end of the rope. It removes you as the source of all her problems and troubles. Now she has only herself to look at when she's depressed or when life isn't going so well. It takes you out of the picture as the bad guy.

Yes. EXACTLY. Could not have said it better myself.

The question is how to let her know that the door is open without it sounding like pressure from you.

That's a tough one, and I am open to suggestions on that.

On the film "Unfaithful": W and I actually saw this movie, I'd say, just a couple months before her A. Can you believe that? I guess she saw it differently than I did. I agree in its accuracy as far as the characters were portrayed, though I think speaking for many of a BS, I have a hard time believing that those moments come when a WS regrets starting the A. I think my W, for example, hasn't been there yet, and certainly didn't get close to there near as fast as the woman in that film...But it is a nice thought to think that at some point, every WS does look back with some regret over their actions. I'm just not sure it's a 100% certainty.

As for the film, I don't think I'll now be ready to watch it again for a very long time.

ALS

No, no..... you're missing what I'm saying about the movie.... that the confusion, and the angst, and the hurt, and the feeling drawn to something you know is wrong... are there FROM THE BEGINNING. We just find ways to rationalize it, hide it, cover it up, even to ourselves. That's what was so stiking to me... that the movie portrayed her struggle from the outset of the affair.

ALS:

"Hopefully I haven't let any of you down. "

You can't do this, ALS. This is YOUR life. Even if some of us might feel "let down", it isn't what's important.

And I don't think anyone thoughtful enough 2 come here could be let down by anything you decide 2 do.

Cerri:

I almost watched that movie when I was on travel and it was available in my hotel room. Was curious, but decided that I probably would find it 2 painful. Probably still would. Maybe someday.

-2long

Well I filed for divorce this afternoon. It's sort of sad how easy it is to do. At least, to start the process. With the correct knowledge and paperwork, I was able to file and start the 90 day clock today in just a few short minutes.

Nothing else can be done or filed for another 90 days now, so following my meeting with W next Friday to sign the car over to her, that will be the end of my contact until September. I have already informed her of the date the 90 days are up, and told her that on that day I'd like to sign the rest of the paperwork. So I've given her plenty of notice to set that aside.

Strangely enough, I don't feel sad at all, I feel pretty good. I found myself smiling and with a spring in my step when I left the courthouse, and it was a totally unconscious action. I think in a way I am relieved, and happy that I have finally come to terms with all of this. Perhaps it will differ as the process comes to a close, but today, I am feeling okay. I feel I have made the right decision.

Cerri reminded me of something else: Very early on in the process, right after D-Day, I called WH's radio show for advice. Upon hearing my situation, WH told me to go to an immediate Plan B (no Plan A at all) with the assumption a Dv would soon follow. So, at this point, I think even WH would say I have done more than enough for myself and my M, and I bet he would agree that filing was a better call over fighting. Fighting just would turn her off to me even more.

W does continue to cooperate, and remain in regular e-mail contact regarding the divorce. I attempted to push up the date for us to sign the car over to this week to get it over with, but she wants to stick to the 20th, which is fine. She looked over the property settlement agreement I emailed to her, found a couple small errors, and approved it otherwise.

So she is being most cooperative and we are on track. Our emails have been very civil but short and all business.

I am doing okay and feeling okay, and will keep you all informed regarding all of this. Thanks!

ALS

wife and i actually saw unfaithful at the theater ... shortly after her affair became physical. she told me on d-day that the movie caused her first freak out moment, as om's name in the movie is same as her om. after we saw the movie, we went to lunch and the waiter had the same name. of course, i was oblivious to it all (although i secretly rooted for the outcome in the flicker show) and have no desire to see the movie now.

<small>[ June 09, 2003, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: whippit ]</small>