Wow, I'm sort of happy I didn't have any cake yesterday now. I think the icing might have turned me off now. Thanks a LOT, TMCM. hehe

Thanks for understanding, Kily, I'm sorry I missed your thread yesterday. I see you were feeling a little down, too. Like you say, it will pass.

Actually I never expected to hear from W on my birthday, but the fact I did and she blatantly ignored it I thought was pretty rude and insensitive. That did bum me out, yeah.

To correct one thing though, I wasn't looking forward to seeing her tomorrow, not at all really, I just have a bad feeling about the whole thing. I have this scary feeling that she's going to try and get me to sign some INS papers or something, which would basically prove to me that all along she has been delaying just for immigration reasons. Now I have to wait until Monday to deal with all that.

At least from her emails I can imagine the meeting will be civil, IF there are no surprises. What I want is to meet up, sign the car title, sign the property agreement, have her sign off on the car insurance, and be on my way. If there's no line at the place, this should basically take 5 minutes. I don't want any sort of arguments or controversy, I just hope she has no surprises planned.

ALS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:

Not to mention Mrs TMCM said I tasted delicious. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ACK!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <hands over ears> LA LA LA LA LA LA LA <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I-don't-want-to-know-this!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

AlS.... I borrowed those words from the Charge of the Goddess by Doreen Valiente, they are so beautiful and so fitting for what I wish for you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

C

Well now we know two things....

1. TMCM keeps his wife plenty happy in the cake department.

2. Now we know why he drinks so much coffee - doesn't it go great with cake!

Thanks, Cerri, it was a nice thing to hear on a gloomy day. I appreciate it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

ALS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kily:
<strong>Well now we know two things....

2. Now we know why he drinks so much coffee - doesn't it go great with cake!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope that ain't it. TMCM drinks so much coffee because:

2. TMCM is surrounded by 3 females (wife and daughters) who are shopaholics. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Looking back on things I've posted about here, one thing I've come to realize is I spent a lot of time focusing on the physical aspects of the situation between W and I -- What's happened and what I expect to happen, things that were said and done, but I never spent a lot of time posting about how I was FEELING about everything. Maybe it's because I wasn't really sure.

This week, I've been giving everything a lot of thought. Just sort of summarizing in my mind everything that happened since D-Day. I now understand how her affair began. I can see it all so clearly and I can accept the fact that she was unhappy. She started her affair and I found out right away. Of course, I thought I was a saint when I was willing to forgive and rebuild. How shocked I was when she told me she wasn't going to do that. And then the LBing, and the discomfort, and that's all it took -- OM was there for her and in those early weeks in her A, she got attached. I was no longer her soul mate, I became a stranger.

In my mind, in the months leading up to that, I was being a good husband, but in her mind, many of her needs were going unmet. I didn't realize it, but so were mine. My reaction to my needs not being met was to just coast along, and also, unconsciously, to stop meeting HER needs as well. Her reaction was to find someone else that met her needs to make her feel better. I get it.

The frustrating part in all of this is that, while I did get upset, I was rather consistant in my love for her. And to this day, even though I wish it weren't true as it would ease so much pain, I still love my wife. I think of our past, the good and the bad, and I still love the person that she is. I shouldn't, for all the hurt she has caused and especially since, despite my attempts to save our marriage, she never even tried, yet I love her all the same.

I also questioned if I was doing this out of desperation...Was I trying to save my marriage because I was afraid of being alone? Was all of this selfish in nature? Did I just want my needs met again? The painful part of it is that I know now that if there's anyone in the world that knows her better than anyone else, it's me. And I have learned that I didn't take care of her as well as I could have over the past few years because I didn't know how. I did the best I could have with the tools I had. And in doing that, I thought that was enough, because it WAS the best I knew how to do.

I thought back to the times I made my W happy. And the times she made me happy too. But I realized that I got the most satisfaction in my life when I was able to make her smile, or laugh, or just brighten her day. Whenever I did that, I was on cloud nine. I realized I am not a selfish person. Sure, I enjoyed getting my needs met, like anyone else. And at times, my "taker" came out. But I loved to give to her. And somewhere along the way I think I got frustrated and stopped doing that.

I only wish I had the chance to take everything I've learned and apply it to my relationship with her. I know how hard recovery is, and how strange it would be to be with her again after all this time, but I also know we could make it.

Yet, I guess what worries me is this: I love my wife, and I want her to be happy. I do. But not with the OM. I don't want her new relationship with him to succeed. Even if we get divorced. I don't. I'm not sure if this is just because I think it will prove me WRONG, and her right in her feelings when she left me, or what. I can't explain this. I would think if I truly loved her, I'd want her to be happy no matter what, as she's told me. And I do. But I don't want her affair to work out. Even if she never came back to me, I guess I just want it to fail, if only so she realizes that perhaps giving me and the marriage a chance was actually worth a TRY after all.

I've learned a lot. And granted, I think that W has a lot to learn as well, but if I can do it, so can she. And wow, if she was only willing to open her mind and her heart to the possibility of how wonderful a life like that could be, it could be absolutely amazing. Better than ever. We could take care of each other in such a perfect way.

I suppose that's what's frustrating in all of this. Right now, W is happy, or at least, tells me that she is. Actually, I believe her. I believe she is happy, or, at least happier than she was with me in the months leading up to the day she left. I won't deny that. But what I wish she would consider is the fact that yes, it IS possible to come home, and yes, it IS possible that I have learned to be a better husband to her over these past 8 months. I'm not sure if she has ever envisioned a future with us together, but with a new understanding of one another, since we've both realized that marriage isn't something that you just coast into, it's something you WORK on and you learn from each other as you go.

Just like she doesn't want to come back to the same me, I don't want the same her back, either. We both need to change. I've changed, and I know I am a better man that I was before. Maybe she has changed too. We've had no chance to even really see if this is true. I feel like if only she might have tested the waters with me, she might have been surprised to see how far I've come. How much more I've learned. How I know ways to meet her needs that I never understood before.

Anyway, that's sort of a mish-mash of feelings, but it's something I haven't done in a while. Just taken an emotional inventory of sorts.

As my W told me after D-Day, this would all be so much easier if I hated her. I agree with that. It would be. But as much as I try, I can't. I see her and I still love her. I know the girl that I fell in love with is still there somewhere. I miss her. And I do wish she'd have the strength to come back to me and try.

ALS

<small>[ June 20, 2003, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: ALostSoul ]</small>

ALS,

I am glad to see that you are coming to understand many things about relationships. But, I think you may be missing something here.

You guys were married less than a year before she had her affair. You have your interpretation of why she had the affair, and I cannot refute it. But, let me offer you my interpretation.

In my mind, given how young she is/was, and how little time you were married, the answer is "she didn't want to be married." Not to you or anyone, she was afraid, and emotionally ill-equiped to handle the responsibility and commitment.

The affair was her way of trying to make you "hate" her so that she could get out. She is happy with OM because she ISN'T married to him.

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">since we've both realized that marriage isn't something that you just coast into, it's something you WORK on and you learn from each other as you go.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My response is NO YOU BOTH haven't realized many things about marriage. You have realized them, but she has not. She still has to grow up. I am sure this experience will push her, but not very fast because basically she has refused to face you and what she has done to you. This WHOLE thing is just her running from marriage and its commitments.

I understand your feelings toward OM, and you understand them as well, hence you know you shouldn't feel this way. But, my guess ALS is that OM will not succeed where you failed because it isn't about either of you. It is about your W and her need to grow up and mature. She hasn't done that yet, OR she would come to you, deeply apologize, and face the pain she has caused. She hasn't done that, she is running.

So ALS I don't know if you agree with me or not, but my take on this is that you can stop worrying about OM, he will get his. Your W will be happy when she grows up.

You have grown tremendously during this mess, and I am sure that your next relationship will be a very good one. You have done well ALS, you really have. YOu should take great confidence and pride in what you have managed to do.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

Your insight and wisdom floor me every time I read a response from you. Thanks.

You make some really excellent points here. Got the wheels spinning some more now.

Do I think she wanted to marry me? Yes, absolutely. And I think at the time I did make her very happy. Mostly. She always, even since before we dated, had days of despair and sadness, sometimes out of the blue. I never really knew from day to day if I'd get the happy W or the sad one. I hoped for the happy, and when I got the sad, I spent my day thinking of ways I could try and help the sad go away.

Which leads me to this -- Is my W really depressed? It's an easy excuse a lot of people make for the situation, and it makes sense, but IS IT TRUE? I've been told "Oh yeah, there's nothing you could have done ALS, your W suffers from depression, and she will just keep moving from relationship to relationship looking to be happy, never realizing that she needs to find happiness within herself to find peace." But what if she isn't a depressed person at all? What if she, as you say, just has commitment issues?

Since I met my W, she hasn't been very good at keeping some commitments. I tried to encourage her to finish her schooling but she opted out of that, left her parents and moved in with me, despite my strong feeling otherwise. She changed jobs and schools a few times in a very short period. Whenever something got too tough for her, she just quit.

I asked her a few months ago, had the shoe been on the other foot, if I had an affair, what would she have done? She answered me almost right away: She said "Run. I would have run away."

So that's what her mantra has become. To run. I think at the time, a marriage was a good thing for her. She loved me more than anything else in her life. She didn't think she could do better. Plus hey, bonus, now she can live here in the US legally and finally get a job (ironically, where she'd meet OM). But it was a good arrangement.

In the months after the marriage, things DID get routine. We travelled a bit, not much, as we had debt to pay off. Many nights were spent in front of the television. We both worked, we got into a routine. That's what life is, a lot of routine. And I think it took its toll on her. And then she realized that she didn't want to spend the rest of her life doing that.

I can follow that, I can. I just wish she'd have told me about that more openly. She knew she wanted out of the marriage. And you're right -- What better way to get out FAST than to cheat. The worst thing you can do to your spouse. She took the fast track out.

Not only that, but she has admitted to me that she needs a man in her life. She is afraid to be alone. Every guy she is with, she follows this pattern, of a great start, then she burns out, but carefully seems to get another on the line before dropping ties with the last.

But yes, with me, she was MARRIED. She needed out. With OM she can be happy because she knows that, should that day of discontent come again, she can more easily move on to the next. I would be surprised if they move in together and totally shocked if they ever got married. I don't think my W believes in marriage, at least, not at this point in her life. She wants to be single. She wants no commitments. She wants the path to run away on to be clear whenever it's needed. In case of emergency, run. Don't look back.

That statement I made assuming she has realized things about marriage just shows you where my stream of consciousness typing gets me. I think she always knew relationships were work, but what she's missing is the fact that first off, you BOTH need to work on it -- When one tries, and the other doesn't, that's disaster. In her mind, perhaps, she was trying to work on us before she got tired and left. But like you have said JL, she sure didn't try for long. And not once did she tell me she was thinking of leaving me or the marriage before it just happened. She stopped communicating.

I wish so much that she could experience this growth that you speak of.

As for the OM, I agree, if she remains the same, he'll get his. He'll go through what I am experiencing right now. My only concern is that W's growth happened now, this experience is what did it. And that OM is getting all the benefits. Who knows, maybe my W has matured, has grown, has lost her depressive nature...

Has she grown? I don't know. She's apologized to me, almost immediately after D-Day, many, many times. Said she is sorry for hurting me, she never wanted to hurt me. Said she regrets it, wishes she could turn back time. But not once has she said she would ever work on the marriage. Not once has she ever said she would leave OM and try. Not once. So I'm not sure what type of apology or regret that is.

Thanks, JL, for the encouragement. You're a wise person and I know that you mean what you say. I'm very honest with my feelings here, so I know that if you read this and can say you feel I've done well, then I know that I have.

I just hope that it's not years and years before I have the chance to take what I have learned and share it with someone. I have a lot to offer and give, more than ever, and I look forward to that opportunity.

ALS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ALostSoul:
Which leads me to this -- Is my W really depressed?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">from what you've said ... yes. and she still may also have commitment issues, too.

so how are you? i've read your latest posts, but how are you?

Hi whippit, thanks for checking in. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm doing okay this weekend, though the mood swings are still with me. I know many people have suggested anti-D's, but I think I'd rather just ride this one out on my own.

D-Day was 8 months yesterday, and I still continue to have the occasional feelings of anger, sadness, regret, and frustration. I never thought it would have lasted this long. I think the fact that the divorce process has now started brought a lot of these feelings back to the surface, too, as I have found myself reflecting back a lot on the events surrounding D-Day, my subsequent reactions, and the gradual downfall of things after that.

I've found myself wondering if I could have salvaged things had I acted less crazy after finding out, if I hadn't forced her to move out. I've found myself questioning the sudden spike in phone calls and interest around New Years, a few months after D-Day. W called then and we talked for hours in January. She called to wish me a happy new year. But no Happy Birthday. It seems that, as the months apart went on, W at first missed me, but now has gotten used to living a life without me. I feel that the time apart hasn't made her miss me more. Sort of in the way I am adjusting to being alone again, she is adjusting to a life without me in it. She's coming more independent, more in love with the OM, more comfortable with ending this marriage.

Perhaps the old adage of loving something and setting it free is true. She hasn't come back, perhaps the marriage was never meant to be. Otherwise, she would at least miss me by now.

Tough day coming up for me tomorrow. I'll see her in person for the first time in a couple of months. Speak with her for the first time since she, OM, and her family received the Plan B letter. For the first time since she told me that she doesn't even like me as a person anymore, that I treat her badly, and that OM makes her happier than I EVER did.

I am not looking forward to this.

The time and place are set: We are to meet at the lunch hour tomorrow (Monday). I am bringing along the marriage settlement agreement (property agreement) for her to sign, as we can have it notarized there. I am also bringing along a few Dv documents I must have notorized. And of course, the main reason for the meetup, to sign over the car title to her. I anticipate this all should take about 5 minutes, though I hope there are no surprises.

I hope she doesn't try and argue with me. If she does, I'm not sure what to do. If she attacks me for sending the PB letters, or just insults me, or even if she said she was sorry for her reaction to it, I have no idea what to do.

Most of all, I don't know what to do if she brings me any paperwork of her own, such as an immigration document for me to sign to allow her to stay in the country. I don't think I can in good faith just sign something like that tomorrow. She hasn't said anything to me about such a document at all, so to bring it would be an insult to me anyway. I suppose I'd just ask for a copy of it and tell her I need to look into it with the INS before I sign anything. Sound fair?

So that's about it. I still love my W. I pray for her to get the courage and the strength to face this and fix our marriage. I know it wouldn't be easy, but I do know I can forgive her if she was willing to try. It would be so much easier for her to come home than she even realzies. I think she may feel that she'd never be treated the same, or that our marriage would have to kick right back into high gear should we ever get back together. What I'd really love is just for us to get a chance to know each other again. Especially for her to see what I have come to learn over these past 8 months.

But of course, I wouldn't want the same W that walked out the door 8 months ago to come back, either. I fear she hasn't taken the time to learn anything about a marriage or a relationship, and that she hasn't grown in that regard. And that's really something that needs to happen. That and, of course, her leaving the OM. Which may be years away, if ever. But I will remain hopeful and do the best I can tomorrow.

Wish me luck.

ALS

ALS:

Good luck!

Just be yourself. Be courteous. Be loving. Don't LB, at all (because since you HAVE 2 talk, you might as well make it a Plan A meeting!).

You'll be fine!

regards,
2long

Thanks, 2long.

That being said, anyone have any suggestions on how I should handle the situation if she asks me to sign some sort of immigration document or otherwise?

How can I not sign it but not make it a big LB moment when I refuse to do so?

Of course, this is all hypothetical, I hope she doesn't pull anything like that, but I feel it's best to be prepared. She may not bring such a document, but she may bring it up.

ALS

you say that you want to look them over before signing them and that you'll get back to her in a few days with them.

thinking of you lots today, bro.

HI Als:

Belated Happy Birthday. JL had it down to a tee. Could not have said it better.

I pray you have a calm meeting with her tommorrow. If anything new comes up as to documents, get the copy to review before signing. That is only reasonable and fair.

I hope you can find the peace from nowing you have tried your best in the M and you tried your best to save it. You have learned and you have grown. PLease try and let your W's journey be that hers (I know this is difficult).

God Bless you with peace ALS.

Jack

Thanks, Jack, for the wishes and for your words, I do need to be at peace with myself and the situation as best I can.

I am sure that time will help. As time goes on, I will feel less sadness, resentment, and hurt. It's lessened already, still there, but I suppose that's because the process is still going on. When things become final, it will be my chance to truly detach and begin a new life for myself.

Details on today's visit in a moment.

ALS

????? Well ???????

As we sit with our feet tapping awaiting the response...nervously chewing our fingernails.....

So there we sat, two people who fell in love with each other just a few short years ago, in silence, treating each other like practical strangers.

And thus went today's meeting with W.

I showed up at the location on time, and sat for 25 mintues before W showed up. I was going to give her 30. She'd never been there before, and got lost trying to find it. It was understandable. She pulled her car in alongside of mine and we got out. The first thing she did was apologize and and explained why she was late.

Before the visit, I'd decided to keep it low key and all business. I could have tried to make small talk -- As her how she was doing, feeling, what was new, etc. But I didn't. Instead, we just silently walked up to the building, I held the door and let her in, sat down, and got right to business.

The clerk asked some questions regarding the car title transfer, if there were any loans involved, money changing hands, etc. W then said "I'm his wife." to the clerk to explain that this was not a vehicle sale. That was surreal to hear out of her lips. He then still seemed confused, so I explained to him we were in a divorce process and I was giving her the car.

The clerk proceeded to work, and W and I sat silently next to each other. Neither of us looked at each other or really made any eye contact at all. I brought up a few points of business to her as we waited, and at that time had the chance to try and make eye contact. It was brief. She looks great, and she seemed very happy, upbeat, and cooperative. But very short with her responses, just as I was.

I gave her a copy of the marriage settlement agreement to sign, which divides all our property (basically the document that stated all she gets in the divorce is the old car, no alimony, no cash, none of the house, nothing). She signed it without any hestitation at all, without even looking it over. She trusts me I suppose. And she has been 100% cooperative.

W paid for the title transfer as I told her she'd need to. It was $60 which I'm sure was more than she expected.

We then had the marriage settlement document notarized, along with a couple other divorce related things I had to have done. W waited patiently while all this was done. I paid for the notary signatures. W was finished but she still politely waited behind. While the receipt printed, I reminded her that September 8th was the next day we needed to get together to sign things. She said no problem, and asked where she needed to be. I told her it was just notary stuff again, so we could meet there or elsewhere.

I also asked her if she'd be sending me a check for the court fees for the divorce, which I already paid. She said that she will be after her next paycheck, which is next week. I am sure she will. Again, she has been most cooperative.

She made no mention of immigration and had no documents for me to sign. No surprises. Everything went smoothly, though I suppose I didn't do anything to convince her I had any hope for the marriage anymore. I didn't really smile at her, or tell her she could still reconcile if she changed her mind. I was tempted to ask her if this was what she wanted, though I am sure of what her answer would have been. I was tempted to just talk to her. But her terse manner equalled mine, and I'm not sure if it's what she wanted, or what I wanted, or what we both wanted. But it's what we had. A 100% business meeting.

We left the building together, quietly, not a word being spoken. I was sure that she would get into her car without speaking a syllable. So just before I got in my car, I looked at her, smiled, and just said "Bye." She looked back, smiled, said "Bye" cheerfully and that was it.

As I got into my car and backed away, I heard her car struggling to start as it always did. It's still not fixed. And the part of me that still cares for her hesitated a moment to make sure it turned over. It did, and she followed me out of the parking lot, onto the highway.

We spaced ourselves a bit on the highway in separate lanes, but both ran into a yellow light just up ahead, and put on the brakes. There we sat, at the red traffic light, me on the left, she on the right. Side by side. I was tempted to look over, to smile, to wave. Or just to take a last look at her. But I didn't. I sat and looked ahead at the light. Who knows if she did the same. Probably. But I'll never know.

Was there anything else I could have done today? I'm not sure. Was I so cold and businesslike with her that she doesn't even feel like I care for her anymore? I don't know that either. But it was business. There were no surprises. No fights. I got the meeting that I wanted. And so did she.

Now, no contact until September. I wish I didn't miss her, or still long to hug her when I laid my eyes on her. I need to let go. And in a way I have, by doing all of this, started to do that. But a part of me still remembers the love and laughter we shared, and longs to have that back. And being with her still reminds me of all that. Even when it's for unpleasant stuff like divorce documents.

So, that's about it for the summary. Unexciting, I realize, and probably the last bit of activity you'll see of interest from me for a while. But my loyal friends and readers, I wanted to share with you, as I have been.

Talk to you later.

ALS

<small>[ June 23, 2003, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: ALostSoul ]</small>

<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Do you think I did something wrong?

ALS