my friend, you are not responsible for the choices your wife has made -- even the ones she's made after d-day. everything changed the moment you decided to stand and fight for your marriage and then acted upon it. and there's nothing to be disappointed in with that. i know how you feel in looking back at the man you once were ... the one that contributed to the deterioration of your marriage. i look back at that, too. you, like me, know that that person is long gone and a better one is emerging more with each day. if your wife doesn't want to be around to see the new man, then that's unfortunate and sad, but ultimately not in your control. there is no doubt in anyone's mind that you will find an amazing woman who will want to share her life with you and love you the way you want to be loved.

Thanks, whippit, you give me a lot of encouragement with your words. It's a very touchy situation right after D-Day and I guess the only thing I still regret is some of the choices that I made after D-Day. I guess I just realize now if I was able to follow MB principles better, I might have had a better chance, though also, I realize it might not have made a difference, anyway.

I think W and I have both taken our responsiblities for the mistakes we both made in caring for each other and the M, we sort of got to an agreement on that right around D-Day. She never really accused me of it being all my fault, she was quick to take her half of the responsiblity. Unfortuntaely, her addiction to the OM and the A was too much to convince her to try again. She I think became a WS who just felt that she had gone too far to turn around and come home.

I think sometimes a WS may actually consider coming home, or wish that they could turn back time and do things differently, but instead of facing what they've done, they find it easier to stay where they are. Less guilt to face, less fear of coming back into a marriage where they are guilty of such a horrible mistake, and maybe even fear that the BS won't ever forgive them.

ALS

I actually have something to ask you all about today! What do ya know, huh? Still undecided about what I am going to do, but I figured it never hurts to hear some opinions of all of my friends here at MB.

As you may recall, I went ahead and took the initiative and filed for Dv after my W's insistance on it, back in June. The agreement was that W would pay for the filing but I did file so I paid for it up front.

Last month, she assured me she would pay me back after her next paycheck. Two paychecks later, I still received nothing, so I wrote her late last week, a 1 line email to politely remind her that she owes me the money for the filing.

Over the weekend, I received a reply from her telling me that she didn't forget, she WILL pay me back, but after every paycheck, she only has "$20 to her name" after she pays all her bills. She still said she will pay me back, and I think she probably will EVENTUALLY, but who knows when.

Now, first off, she exaggerates her financial troubles a bit. I know she makes enough to cover her bills and doesn't have a LOT left over, but I also know that she'd be quite capable of paying me back in a month if she didn't go out on the weekends and spend money on recreational stuff, alcohol, dining out, and whatever else she may be doing. In other words, I think that she isn't saving any money to pay me back right now, she's not concerned about it. Her financial situation is definitely not like when she was with me, she doesn't have a lot of money left over, but she could find $200 to pay me back if she needed to.

What confuses me is that, last I heard OM lives with his Mom, and W now has her own place. Why doesn't he just move in with her? It would make financial sense to have them both cohabitate and split the bills on everything. Curious, eh? Maybe he doesn't want to move in. I mean, for all I know he DOES live with her now, but if he did, I am CERTAIN she'd have enough money to pay me back in that case. Hmmm...

So, the dilemma is this -- In early September, we are due to file the next round of divorce paperwork. I am considering letting W know that, if I don't have the money from her by then, I am withdrawing the divorce. Let her start over, pay to file herself, do all the forms and paperwork, etc. Basically, let her do ALL the work as I probably should have done from the start. Granted, if it came to that I would lose my $200 but hey, the way I see it, I'm not paying to get this entire process done and doing all the work for her. If she can't pay me back in 3 months then she should have to start over and do this ALL herself.

So, I'm considering an email back saying something like: "Just so long as you have it to me by September, please." Or more directly: "Alright, well, please have it for me before we sign in September or I am going to withdraw the filing and you can do it yourself. If it's important to you, I'm sure your boyfriend or someone can loan you the money."

I mean seriously, it's $200, she can borrow it from OM but I guess she is ashamed to ask for it. But if he wants her divorced, wouldn't he be happy to loan it to her? Or is she maybe just trying to get out of it? After the divorce is final, she'd have no reason to pay me back.

Look forward to opinions!

ALS

ALS-

I see two issues in your post and I will quickly offer my two cents.....

First and foremost, do not dwell for one second on what her living arrangements may or may not be. Do not think about, it really doesn't matter. I realize that was a very small part of your post, but you are torturing yourself when you spend any time contemplating what she is doing at this point in time. You know I am there every step of the way with you, our stories are eerily similar. But you also know that what will bring you peace of mind right now is STRICTLY only worrying about you. I know you use this board as a bit of a journal for yourself, and I think that's great. But please for your own sake stop trying to read between lines that may or may not exist. Our WW's are not with us right now, that's all that matters. What they do and who they do it with is not what should concern us, all we can do right now is control ourselves. I used to struggle daily with the "what is she doing right now?" thought, now I have simply decided to pray daily for her to be happy, healthy, and safe- it's that simple. Give yourself the ultimate peace of mind for right now, detach and worry only about you.

As for your question on the money, yes she definitely owes it to you. If she agreed to pay the money, she needs to figure out how to do so as you are not her bank nor are you her personal checkbook or visa. If/when you contact her again about this subject, do not offer your opinion as to where she can come up with the money (i.e. "her boyfriend") as that is her problem that she needs to solve. But definitely feel free to tell her that your involvment in the process will stop until she does re-pay you. Do not threaten to pull the divorce, just tell her you will not continue filing the paperwork as she has not kept up her end of the bargain so to speak. If she wants the divorce to continue, she will come up with the money. If she doesn't, well then you can cross that bridge at that time.....

This probably ended up being a lot closer to my three cents versus two.....

sadinaz:

But it was worth all three cents!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You're dwelling again, ALS! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Don't be like ol' 2long there! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

-ol' 2long

i don't think it's out of the question for you to indicate that you find her arrangement unacceptable -- if, in fact, you do find it unacceptable. i would also offer her terms that are acceptable to you as an alternative to full payment. i agree with sadinaz that you should tell her that you will not continue to file paperwork until she's met her obligation according to the terms to which you both agree.

<small>[ July 28, 2003, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: whippit ]</small>

Dear ALS:

I know you feel that the money is her taking advantage of you again, however if the terms of the D are to your advantage just let it go.

In the big scheme of life $200 just doesn't matter.

It just says alot about her that debts mean nothing to her.

Try and let it go and do not dwell on these things (easy for me to say HUH?).

Peace ALS move on to bigger and better things.

ALl my best

Jack

Wow, lots of replies! Thanks all.

2long and sadinaz: I really am trying not to dwell on her living situation or otherwise, the only reason I brought it up was to sort of illustrate that I don't think her money problems are as bad as she made them out to be. Yes, from time to time I do wonder what she's up to with OM and all that does is anger me do I try and dismiss that stuff as fast as I can. You are correct in that it is self-defeating and serves no purpose.

Sadinaz, my heart goes out to you as well, you are doing very well yourself and you are right on the money. Like you, I do wish my wife well and hope she is healthy and safe. And I spend my life working on myself and do feel I have made leaps, but still have more to learn.

Whippit, yes I found it unacceptable because I was doing her a favor by helping this along, all she needed to do was pay for the court costs. She agreed to this and I feel she had to hold up to that agreement.

So, I consulted with my sage Cerri and she agreed that a kind note, simply giving her a deadline (the end of next month, plenty of time) or else stating that I would withdraw the petition would suffice.

Sure enough, it did. W wrote back and stated that she gets an extra paycheck next month, and will send me a post-dated check tomorrow. She asked me the amount and I replied with only that. I guess I could have said "thank you" but what's the difference at this point, I suppose. So the issue appears to be solved.

Jack, you are right. It wasn't about the money but rather the principle that I was filing and helping her with all this paperwork, and if she didn't appreciate that enough to at least pay as agreed, she could do all the work herself. She told me she would pay me back and she sounded sincere but it's still hard to trust her after hearing all of the lies. But, it seems like this one's been worked out, and peacefully, so I am thankful for that.

ALS

AlS:

"So, I consulted with my sage Cerri and she agreed that a kind note, simply giving her a deadline (the end of next month, plenty of time) or else stating that I would withdraw the petition would suffice.
Sure enough, it did. "

You made me smile! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-2long

Here's the latest.

About 10 minutes after I wrote W back with the amount she owed (and only that), I received another mail with a completely out of left field question about something I bought her that broke. She wanted to know where I bought it so she could return it (it's almost a year old!). Not sure what the reason was for the question or why she even asked, given our strict NC for the past few months. I opted not to answer her email at all. We're in NC. She can figure it out for herself now that she's on her own.

I thought it was a bit peculiar that she tried to continue the e-mail chain a bit longer with such a strange question, but I'm in Plan B, so I want no part of it. There really was no reason to ask me about that OR even the amount she owed (she knew that as well) but she seemed to want a bit of email contact...At least that's my perception. Maybe PB/NC had a bit of an effect after all.

And today, in the mail as promised, the check arrived from W, post-dated for when she will have the funds available. So we are square with finances as well (so long as the check doesn't bounce when I cash it). Interesting to see she is still using the checks with both our names on them from her account, though I guess it doesn't make sense for her to change that until she gets her maiden name back in a few months.

Also interesting to see that she did send the check and not make the effort to stop to drop it off in person and pick up her things. I'm sure she still knows she has things at the house. Guess that will happen another day.

That's the latest. Doing well today, have a great weekend planned with friends, work's going great, I'm feeling fantastic.

ALS

ALS:

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ...

"She wanted to know where I bought it so she could return it (it's almost a year old!). "

Oh, I don't know. I have a 1929 Model A that needs a rebuilt engine... maybe I could get Ford 2 pay for that under hyperextended warranty?

-ol' 2long.

Exactly, 2long...You got it. That's sort of why I thought it was a strange request or reason to write me. Regardless, I didn't want to respond to that, Plan B and all. Pretty proud of myself, I've come far. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

ALS

Hellooooo!!!!

Just popping in to say hi.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

C

Cerri remembered me!!! Yaaay! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi Cerri. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

ALS

Remembered who??

...Oh yeah! That ALS guy! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ALS wrote:
Cerri remembered me!!! Yaaay!

Hi Cerri.

ALS</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2Long wrote:
Remembered who??

...Oh yeah! That ALS guy!

-ol' 2long</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Is THAT where I am. Darn, must have posted in the wrong place!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Just kidding!!!! As if I could forget you. Sheesh! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> So, ya comin' to the bonfire??

C

You know, I keep thinking about that bonfire and how much I'd love to attend. It would be really amazing to meet so many of the people who have helped me here over these past 9 months or so. But given the fact I've already made plans that weekend, coupled with the fact that the trip would cost me a few hundred bucks in travel expenses that I really can't afford right now, I'm afraid I'll probably miss it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Is anyone else flying in or are the rest close enough to drive? If you have another one, I'd really like to come and meet you, kily, sttsi, and others, as you were all so helpful in getting me through such a tough time (and continue to be!).

I'm doing fairly well these days. I have had a pretty full summer, did a lot of fun things with family and friends and have generally kept busy on the weekends, which I feel has been a big factor in getting through the lonelier times. There are some things that I did with W over the past few years that I missed doing this summer, going to amusement parks, miniature golfing, hitting the beach, a late night movie...You know, date-type stuff that you just normally don't do with your friends. I have missed that a little bit this summer. And I still walk by the flower shop at the local market and think that I wish I had someone to buy flowers for, as I used to pick flowers up for W there so often.

But really, overall, I am better than ever. The rollercoaster ride continues and there are still down times, but as promised, time has lessened the impact of that and I have been feeling better all the time. I know now that I am strong enough to move through the divorce process when it continues next month, and also strong enough to insist on recovery conditions if that chance should ever present itself. I'm in a pretty good place.

So, no NEW news really, but that's what Plan B is supposed to bring. No news. I do wonder how W is doing and if she is okay, but I am trying to let go of that and realize that she can no longer be my concern. She now has to rely on herself, OM, and her new friends to help her through the tough times. I do hope she is okay.

Thanks for keeping this thread alive, it's not yet a record setter, but if I'd have kept my entire saga from the start here in one place like this, I'm sure it WOULD be quite a thread.

ALS

I'm curious about a factor that seems to often get overlooked in the MB techniques here, but one lately that I've been giving a lot of thought to: Children in a marriage/relationship suffering from an affair, and their presence as a catalyst for recovery.

It seems like, with my situation, and a few others I've been following, all with very good people involved (mostly men with wives who have had affairs), regardless of how perfect a Plan A these guys are doing, myself included, the wives are just not coming back. They're not ending their affairs, or even attempting to give the marriage a try. And the one thing I'm noticing that we all have in common is that we have no children.

The more I read around here, it seems like the majority (not all, mind you) of the marriages that are getting saved her have children involved. I'm to the point where I wonder if perhaps special circumstances should be considered when there are no children to help hold the marriage together. I think that a broken marriage, especially when the wife has strayed, is tougher to get back together when the wife has nothing to look back on. A mother doesn't want to give her children a tough life, she wants to care for them, and obviously to look back and see what anguish she has caused her children by having an affair may even hurt more than the anguish she caused to her husband. And this may allow her to open her eyes to recovery, giving a nice start to allowing the husband to repair the marriage.

The straying spouse who leaves a marriage without children has the chance for a total clean break. No need to ever look at the person they betrayed in the face again after the divorce. On the other side, with children involved, they will need to see the person that they betrayed on a regular basis due to the shared custody of children, for the rest of their lives. In this case, the guilt can never really leave and thus the straying spouse may reconsider.

In short, I'm wondering, did those of us without kids in our marriages have an even tougher time going in, from the start? Is it time to perhaps suggest a different approach or a speedier or more drastic timeline to those of us in these marriages where the wayward spouse can just cut the strings and leave forever?

I'd also be curious, though I'm not sure how many read this thread anymore...If those of you who ARE reading could post up some info:

How long since 1st d-day?
In Recovery? (Y/N?)
Children? (Y/N?)

I'm willing to bet that almost everyone who says Y to recovery will say Y to children. Also, that almost everyone who says N to children will probably also say N to recovery.

ALS

ALS,

It is true what you write. Steve Harley even told me early on that my BIGGEST asset towards drawing my wife home was the kids. it was the link she could not sever.

Added to that, after reading SAA, Love Must Be Tough, and Torn Assunder, I have found that men who have affairs, usually the relationship isnt as deep for them. It has a lot to do about sex most of the time. Women on the otherhand, likely have been wanting out for awhile, and look for an exit affair. When they do, they most often have been "done" with the marriage for awhile, and the OM is their way out. Torn Assunder even states that it is much harder to get things back on track if the wife is the WS.

So, a lot of times, it seems that the only draw back for them is the kids. My wife will readily admit to you that our kids are the only reason that I had the time to make the effort toward Plan A, and toward recovering her love. If there were no kids, she would have run and not looked back.

So, I believe there is some validity to what you are saying, especially with WWs.

In His arms.

I agree with you ALS that marriages that have children SEEM to have a better chance of being saved than childless marriages. In fact I remember somebody saying that Steve Harley commented to him/her that if there are no children in a marriage rocked by infidelity then Plan B is usually ineffective in bringing the WS back to the marriage (I hope somebody can confirm this). But even if this is the case, there is probably still no better strategy to save a marriage than Plan A/Plan B in the vast majority of cases.