ALS, in my opinion, which isn't worth much, women who cheat are always less likely to come home. Women get far more emotionally involved and detach more from their spouse doing so than men.

I have children. Children make a good case for staying. I am the bs, not the ws. If I had not had the kids, I probably would have said "hasta la vista baby" and moved on to someone who wasn't proven to be a liar and a cheat.

I had my kids to think about and I am glad them as a good excuse to stay. I was able to keep my pride by being the martyr who saved the family(which isn't really true) vs the idiot who stays with no kids. I think my pride would have made me go had I no kids.

But even if its true that it's much harder to have a WW come back to the marriage than a WH, following Plan A/Plan B is an excellent way for the BH to start his road to personal recovery. If the marriage ends in divorce, the BH is indeed well served by leaving behind his love busters so that they won't sabotage his efforts to build a succesful marriage in the future. No matter the outcome of the marriage, we end up winning anyway.

EXACTLY!!! Good point Coffeeman! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Oh, absolutely. I am certainly not questioning the value of Plan A and Plan B as far as allowing a BS to move on. It certainly has done a lot for me to follow this system as closely as I can.

I gues maybe I was just sort of making an observation. It would be interesting for an actual study to be done, to see the percentage of marriages that could survive an affair, and how many of those involving a wayward wife with no children failed to recover. It would be my guess that, of all situations, that is the absolute toughest to recover from. For many of the reasons mentioned by those of you in these past few posts.

Most of all, and I always felt this rang true for my W, to them, with no children, they can treat it not as a marriage, but rather just like breaking up with a boyfriend, and move on. My W seemed to have no problem treating our relationship just as that, rather than a marriage. Of course I do resent that, but I also think that it really made my chances of recovery close to impossible, and I sometimes wish I never even had the hope that I held onto at the start at all. Perhaps those of us in the wayward wife/no kids sitch just need to have more realistic expectations.

ALS

I tend to be very leary of swallowing whatever statistic is thrown out to the public because it often ends up being contradicted in future studies. It seems that many so called researchers do not have the guts to come up with possible solutions to the problems they expose.

Willard Harley PhD, Shirley Glass PhD, John Gottman PhD, Clifford Notarius PhD, and Howard Markman PhD, etc. These researchers studies do not end with just gathering depressing statistics but go beyond towards solving them. These folks have guts and are not afraid to put their money where their mouths are.

Of course, TMCM, I'm not saying that to discourage, but statistics normally don't lie, they just show a trend. Of course, that trend could be changed due to the good work that those you mentioned do. Naturally.

I suppose I didn't really have much of a point in starting all this, I was just suddenly barraged this week since a couple of the folks that I have been following and chatting with are ALL failing in their best MB efforts, and all of their situations are the same as mine (WW, no kids). So it sort of struck me, is all, I suppose. Seems that in our situation, most of the time, even doing the best we can with the plans, it's impossible to win back our wives.

ALS

ALS:

You (and your friends) win your WSs back by winning YOU back.

Forget the statistics, the sampling here is 2 small 2 compare, really. And what are statistics 2 you anyway? Do they help YOU in your current sitch?

I didn't think so.

You're a good guy, ALS. Get yurself on over here and take a look from my vantage point. You'll agree.

ol' 2long

2long,

Thanks, your sunny outlook is always very much appreciated. You are of course correct in statistics are just that, and don't make a difference in any one person's particular situation.

I do feel I'm a good guy, and heck, I feel like all these guys (Mark over in the recovery forum, for example) are also good guys, but the bottom line is that we have an unknown factor at work: the wayward spouse. And there's nothing we can do to control how they would behave. Of course, again, the MB process is meant to help us win ourselves back as well, so in the end, as long as WE have bettered ourselves, we have "won".

Well, I've bettered myself, and yes, even could go as far as to say I am "winning myself back", per se, but that doesn't mean I'm happy. My heart just goes out to all of these other guys and girls that I have been talking to or reading about, those that are following all the steps, doing a perfect plan, winning themselves back, improving themselves, yet still not getting their spouses back. It just seems like the success rate is low for those in marriages without children to me.

Again, this is all just me babbling random thoughts. I see a lot of positive vibes around here and I have always appreciated that. But I think we may also want to prepare people for the not so perfect outcomes, too.

Example: I see a lot of people told that, when they go to Plan B, definite things will happen. People have said, your wife WILL miss you, the affair WILL suffer, it WILL end, etc etc...Where as this may happen sometimes, there are likely just as many cases where this won't happen. Filling people with false hope may be just as bad as giving them bad advice, too. I love hope as much as the next person, I just think it should also be noted, when proposing this hope, that it's also possible that these things will NOT have an effect on the WS, and the marriage WILL end.

I just read back over this and it sounds very negative, and I'm not trying to get that tone across. Naturally, a lot of this comes from personal experience. I feel that my marriage was over the day that my wife walked out the door and that there was nothing I could have done to save it, looking back. It didn't matter. Again, these processes are wonderful, and did a lot for me, they just did nothing at all to change my W's mind about saving the marriage.

At the end of the day, I think it's important that we continue to use MB techniques with the disclaimer that these are more for ourselves than for winning back a spouse. From the trends I'm seeing here, the success rate in that regard is much higher than the success rate in marriages.

ALS

ALS:

"I do feel I'm a good guy, and heck, I feel like all these guys (Mark over in the recovery forum, for example) are also good guys, but the bottom line is that we have an unknown factor at work: the wayward spouse. And there's nothing we can do to control how they would behave."

Which is why ANY effort that THEY could rationalize as an attempt at controlling them will likely fail. Mark isn't ready for plan B, because, at best, he HOPES that it will change his W's mind. That's not what it's for.

"My heart just goes out to all of these other guys and girls that I have been talking to or reading about, those that are following all the steps, doing a perfect plan, winning themselves back, improving themselves, yet still not getting their spouses back. It just seems like the success rate is low for those in marriages without children to me."

And maybe it is. Or maybe they go away happy and we don't add them 2 our limited statistical database. The problem is that this paragraph is STILL about getting the WS 2 change. Read it again.

"Again, this is all just me babbling random thoughts. I see a lot of positive vibes around here and I have always appreciated that. But I think we may also want to prepare people for the not so perfect outcomes, too."

This needs 2 be stated right up front, particularly with the plans.

"Filling people with false hope may be just as bad as giving them bad advice, too. I love hope as much as the next person, I just think it should also be noted, when proposing this hope, that it's also possible that these things will NOT have an effect on the WS, and the marriage WILL end."

Absolutely. Which is why, again, I posted the things I did 2 Mark's thread.

"Again, these processes are wonderful, and did a lot for me, they just did nothing at all to change my W's mind about saving the marriage."

And they're not supposed 2. She has 2 make up her mind on her own.

"At the end of the day, I think it's important that we continue to use MB techniques with the disclaimer that these are more for ourselves than for winning back a spouse."

These techniques are ENTIRELY for ourselves. Always have been. Always will be. That's where the control always was.

-2long

ALS,

I wanted to take some time to thank you for writing to my thread earlier. I'm just so tired that I'm not responding directly to any individual on that thread. That in itself bothers me. There have been just so many responses for me to get back to. Anyway thank you for looking at my situation.

2long,

That is a very good point you make regarding Plan B, and often a big misinterpretation. Yes, going to Plan B should be considered the last resort, and also a method that is ALL ABOUT you and not about the WS.

That being said, if that is the case, then I really don't think Harley or anyone should ever say that Plan B has a chance to make the WS miss the BS and then end the A and come home. And unfortunately, I think even in Harley's books but definitely something I see here a lot, is everyone telling people that go to Plan B that within weeks, from what they see, the WS will miss them, the affair will end, and the WS will come home.

In reality, Plan B may not put any pressure on the affair, it may strengthen it with the freedoms if offers to the WS and the OP. It may get the WS used to living without their spouse. It may, very well, mark the end of the marriage. The moment someone even SUGGESTS that Plan B will put pressure on the OP to meet needs, end the affair, or cause the WS to miss the BS, isn't that the same thing as saying that yes, going to Plan B is a method to win back the WS?

I totally agree with what you said about Mark not being ready for Plan B because he'd go in not ready for divorce, but rather that going to Plan B would wake his wife up and change her mind about staying with the marriage. Anyone who gives that advice is wrong to do so. Not to say that Plan B won't make that happen, I think it's seemed pretty rare around here that it does, most of the time Plan B is more a strength thing and allowing yourself to take back your pride, prepare for life on your own and for moving on. That's all I've gotten out of Plan B, personally. It has not in any way that I have seen done anything to change my W's mind or hurt her affair.

Mark,

No problem on the non-response man. I know that you are getting a TON of response on your thread and that is a testament to what a good guy you are and how much everyone is pulling for you.

The bitter pill to swallow in all of this is that no matter HOW perfect you might do things, your wife has her own free will and can do whatever she wants to do. And there may truly be NOTHING you can do to change her mind. As 2long wisely said above, nothing should ever be done with the mindset of changing her mind. Even though a lot of MB concepts sort of confuse you to think that (myself included), as I said above.

I'll keep an eye on your thread, you have a lot of friends over there!

ALS

wtf!? why is this all the way back on page 5?

ALS......how are you chere?

ALS-

Please know that your thread is helping me a great deal. I don't want false expectations. I don't want false hope that following a prescription is a foolproof guarantee to save my marriage.

ns ... there ain't nothing foolproof about this. it's hard and it's imperfect and it's frustrating. and it can also work, too. just learn and ask questions when you don't understand and do the best you can each day. You're right, though. als is an inspiring man.

Just stopping to say hi. Internet is working again. Apparently, I had a screw loose. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just stopping to say hi. Internet is working again. Apparently, I had a screw loose.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Am I the only one who's giggling, here? Please say that I'm not.

where did als go?

Everyone!

My goodness, my thread got posts and I totally missed it. Is that a sign that I'm taking a new step in my personal recovery? Maybe so. Though I still admittedly smiled to see posts here and the thought that I missed them. I remember when I used to check MB religiously, almost to the point of addiction, back in the early D-Day times and even through the Plan A and Plan B process.

Well, first off, to neversuspected, I believe your name was, glad this thread is helping. I've always been very, very honest here in what I've done and, as you've noted, taken a realistic approach in that sometimes, no matter what you do, you can't control your spouse and they may not come back.

So, what else is new with me, you might ask? Well, I've been keeping busy and doing better than ever. It sounds so cliche sometimes when folks here advise those of us who are upset about a WS that we need to keep busy, but it not only helps you WHILE you are busy, but it sort of reconditions your brain back into shape. We spend so much time agonizing over the loss of our marriages sometimes that our brain starts to think that's how it needs to spend a good part of its day, whether we like it or not. I know how that feels. But I also know that, by liberating myself from using MB as such a crutch and obsessing over my situation, my brain has gotten out of the habit of thinking about my wife, my marriage, the mistakes, the infidelity, etc. Do these things still come into my mind? Sure, occasionally. And yeah, they still hurt sometimes, too. But this all has been happening much, MUCH less than ever before.

How long did it take? Well, let's see, I'm just over 10 months since D-Day. Your mileage may vary. Will I ever fully recover, and not look back on what happened with sadness, even miss having W in my life? Perhaps not. But these events certainly have allowed me to improve upon myself in countless ways that I never even knew about. I think I was a pretty good guy before, too, so I am thankful for all I have learned in addition to the way I was before. I've made some leaps in areas that needed leaping. Good stuff.

Now, onto some more concrete events. Looking back on this thread, you may see or recall that I started my Plan B at the beginning of May. It was successful, I had no contact at all with W, until sending the PB letter copies to her family and the OM a month later, in June (should have done that at the start of PB, take note, fellow PB starters). The moment that I did that, W went on the offensive and got very aggressive with the divorce. Deciding that I'd heard enough, I decided to drop the gloves, let go of my side of the tug of war rope, and started the divorce process (keeping it under my control for my own protection). This was in early June.

To keep contact to nothing, I set the post 90-day appointment date at that time. That date is September 8th, this Monday. In my state, the "cooling off" period for a no fault divorce is 90 days. So, on Monday the 8th, more papers need to be witnessed and signed/notarized, by the both of us. We'll need to get together to do this. It will be the first time I have seen or spoken to W in 90 days. A very, very good Plan B, that would have certainly taken some sort of effect had it been meant to be.

Our contacts these past 90 days have been I believe 2 emails from each, 1 line each. All about her payment for the divorce which she took care of as she promised. I plan to email her a polite 1 line reminder of our appointment on Monday by the end of this week, though for some reason I've even been putting that off. It's like I don't even look forward to having to email her anymore.

Hard to explain, it is: I still can remember the good times but on the past few instances I've seen her, I've just gotten such a horrible vibe that it bums me out and I feel awful afterwards. For that reason I really am not looking forward to seeing her on Monday for this paperwork. I don't like feeling that way and I do better when I don't need to see her. For this reason, I do look forward to the divorce being over just so I don't need to have these meetings with her. I guess it just brings back the hurt a little and I don't like that. But I also know that I'll be fine once it's all over, too. Plan B at this length and having this much NC with her has shown me that I can really be great on my own.

So, hearing this, some of you may be wondering where I stand on my marriage right now: Is there a shred of hope for it? Would I take W back if she suddenly wanted to try? My answer is simple: Yes. I'm still married. I have learned a lot. I also know that there's such a slim chance of that happening that I really don't have any intention of having to cross that bridge. However, should W look at me with sincerity and try, I would still be willing to give her that chance. Do I expect it? Not at all. Her past relationship pattern has been 2-3 years per guy. This relationship she has with OM is not even a year old. I imagine it will take some more time for it to sour, likely after the divorce when she has absolutely no other excuse for anything that might be bothering her. And sure, there's always that 5% chance or whatever it is that her and OM will live happily ever after. But if she's not with me, I really have no interest in knowing what becomes of that. But I do wonder that, if on those days where she and OM argue, or things just aren't quite as easy and happy as she thought, if she might daydream back to us and wonder if she truly did make the right choice in leaving.

I'm sure I'll have more to say in the next few days, as since the impending Monday meeting is on my mind, I'll have MB on my mind, too. So I'd love to hear from you all, whether you have thoughts, advice, or just want to say hi to an old pal.

I'm sorry I haven't made a personal appearance on many threads here as of late, I still look in on many of you, but haven't been in a position where I felt comfortable to give a lot of advice. But every night before I go to bed, I think of the amazing wonderful people here and how thankful I am to have met you all. MB is proof that there are still a ton of great people in this world, who give so selfishly of themselves to help others. It's an amazing, heart-warming feeling.

I hope everyone realizes how lucky we all are to have friends like this.

ALS

Hey, ALS!

Good 2 hear from you again! I suspected that living life was "getting in the way" of your MB addiction, so I wasn't surprised 2 see you offline for a while.

Yeah, I think there may be something 2 your observation that she spits her men out after 2 or 3 years. Maybe she'll wake up 2 the silliness of this A someday, but I bet you'll be history (happy history, that is!) by the time she does.

I just had a remarkable convo with my W 2day. She loves me! But she's still got some foggy stuff going on in her haid even now. I guess my point is that I can see the fog clearing, but realize that it isn't cleared out completely just yet. I think that all intelligent people can come out of their fogs (just as sure as they can fall in2 them), but maybe it takes longer than some.

-2long