2long! Now there's a familiar face. Let me start by saying I am so happy to hear of the conversation you had with your W yesterday. That's just fantastic. I think all of us daydream of someday having a convo like that. Couldn't have happened for a better guy. Glad to hear that the really thick part of that fog is finally lifting.

Life was getting in the way, in that I was just finding other things to occupy my time. I could always surf MB for hours a day as I did before, but I found that my time here sometimes just brought back old memories. It's not a negative place though, there's a lot of great uplifting things I have read here, and still do, this place got me through many a tough day.

As for W's patterns, well, I can say that her past was certainly like that -- A max of 3 years in any relationship and then running to the next one, similar patterns in other aspects of life, tough to make an extended commitment. However, I also realize that at some point she will (hopefully) mature and be out of this phase of her life. She will learn to face her fears and problems and not run away. She may be learning this with OM now. She is stable and supporting herself, living on her very own for the first time in her life, and enjoys her job. That may be what it took for her to get to the next level. Plus I am also realistic in that OM was worth betraying myself and her marriage, as well as leaving a nice home and a stable, secure financial situation. In short, a fairly comfortable life here. So OM must be something special to her for her to give all of that up. So, I'm also realistic in thinking that he may be the one she has been searching for.

All that said, though, I am in a pretty good place mentally these days. I must say that overall I've handled this ordeal to the best of my ability. I wasn't perfect, especially at the start, but I am proud in the way I've carried myself and proud of how far I've come. I will never look back on my marriage and feel like I was dishonest or gave up. I don't feel any shame or guilt.

Another small fact: This coming Tuesday would have been our 2nd wedding anniversary. The 9th. So that's something else that I'm going to be dealing with next week. I made sure not to schedule our next date to sign papers on that day, which is why I made it the day before. Her 24th birthday is also coming up later in the month, and I know how special that is to her. But I won't acknowledge it at all as she blatantly ignored mine back in June. It does make me a bit sad that last year, her birthday ended up falling on a day that I had to attend a wedding rehearsal for a friend of mine that she didn't even like. I tried to give her a great week and a great day but she was miserable. It could have been that her EA had started and that didn't help, but it does make me a bit sad that I won't have a chance to make up for that this year. I always thought that I would.

That's all for now...

ALS

<small>[ September 04, 2003, 07:09 AM: Message edited by: ALostSoul ]</small>

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hi ALS-

I'm committing my lumch hour to emails and you're on the top of my list!

Hang in there bud...

You seem to give the OM too much value, do you know for a fact that your stbxw and OM are still together? I ask because it is very possible that he may no longer be in the picture considering your stbxw's relationship patterns.

Hi Kily - Thanks, I hope you find some time to eat some lunch though, too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

TMCM - I can't really explain how or why, but even without seeing her, I can say with 95% certainty that they are still together. Right now she needs someone a lot, she unfortunately has always been a girl who needs a guy in her life as a security blanket, as long as I've known her. She didn't leave the marriage until she got OM to commit to her. She has admitted this outright, that she needs a man to survive, to make her feel worth something. She is not strong enough to be on her own. At least, she wasn't.

When she tires of the old guy, she finds a new one, but usually waits to lose the old one until she finds a new security blanket. That takes time. And it also takes her a couple years to get tired of her current situation. But I assume that she will be with OM until something better comes along, unless she learns to break the cycle. Or unless OM is that magical perfect person that she won't ever have problems with (doubtful, but you never know).

You're right, TMCM, in that there is a possibility they're no longer together. I just know that through her past track record, the fact that without OM she again has no one here (she moved 7 hours from home to come here), that she won't dump him until she has a new security blanket in place (or moves back home). That may take another couple of years, or there of course is always the possibility she will mature enough to break that pattern and stick with OM as well. Just as I've learned a lot, she can as well.

Of course, none of that will really be my business once the divorce goes through, and I may never know what the outcome is. I guess part of me hoped or even assumed that if she and OM tired of one another before we divorced, she would give us another try. But I guess it is possible that even if that were to break off, she'd try making a go of it on her own for a while. But if I was an odds-maker in Vegas, I'd give it a 95% chance she's still with OM, and a 99% chance that she won't come back to the marriage regardless of OM or not. Just the vibe I'm getting.

But I'm cool with that. If it's not meant to be, that's that, and we'll see what life's got in store for me in the next round. I'm ready for it.

Ding Ding.

ALS

<small>[ September 04, 2003, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: ALostSoul ]</small>

Have you considered the possibility that the OM would be the one to dump her?

You know, after I re-read my post I almost went back and added that in, because I thought for sure that would be the next question that someone asks.

Of course, I don't know OM, never met him, only know a very few facts about him that W offered to me right after D-Day. So of course this is all speculation on my part but I've found that my instinct since D-Day has been almost spot on regarding the situation.

I think W is attracted to, whether consciously or unconsciously, guys that she knows have a low likelihood of dumping her. Whether they be guys who haven't had a lot of relationships or luck with them, guys who are fairly easy to control, guys who are perhaps a bit needy or insecure. I can certainly see all of these qualities in myself (definitely before we started dating, hopefully not so much these days), and I also saw these qualities in OM from her descriptions and their email exchanges.

In short, I think W is very careful. She knows that she does have some problems and issues of her own with depression, her past, etc. She needs to carefully find someone with their own insecurities, also someone that isn't a "flight risk" or even someone who she won't feel threatened by (another woman stealing him away, for example). She doesn't go for the type of guys that go out and have women drooling all over them, the "players" if you will. She's too jealous of a person. She many times told me I wasn't allowed to talk to any females anywhere, anytime, on the few occasions I went somewhere on business or out with friends. She was that insecure that I would leave. Very protective.

I'm not selling myself short here, even though it may sound as such. But before W I had no long term relationships at all. I was inexperienced and shy and maybe even had low self-esteem when it comes to attracting the opposite sex. So, W could feel secure in that she could mess up, she could make mistakes, but I would never leave her. Hey look at that, she was right. She cheated on me, and treated me like dirt, and I still didn't leave! Chances are, and from what I have seen, OM has a past like mine in that he may not be totally happy with her all the time, but having her is better than no one, and for that reason he'll stay. I know that even during the big fights, W's depression, when she threatened suicide or kept me up crying until 3 AM at how unhappy she was with her life, I didn't enjoy it, but I never considered leaving her.

If OM's like me in this respect, I think she knows she's got another one that will stick around come hell or high water, for as long as she needs him. The perfect position for her to be in.

A very long answer to a short question. Again I know I have no proof and this may sound crazy, but I've been rather perceptive about her these days and that's my very strong suspicion. I think for her relationship with OM to end, she'll have to be the one to end it.

ALS

<small>[ September 04, 2003, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: ALostSoul ]</small>

Well, ALS. I think your stbxw has a lot of little girl stuff 2 outgrow still.

Life just isn't like she needs it 2 be. That's ol' 2long's take.

-ol' 2long.

You are more right than you even know.

This is quite a coincidence -- The day I come back here to post, I get an email from W. I expected her to write (or for myself to contact her) this weekend to let her know when are where to be to sign the next set of papers on Monday. That I expected. But something else in it suprised me.

Here it is in its entirety:

--
September 8 - Can you let me know around what time we will be meeting and where? Also I just realized I never got my rocking chair, so I would like to get that some time too. Just an FYI, I will be moving home at the end of January, so if for any reason something may need to be forwarded to me that is where it will need to go.

Thanks
--

I had of course been waiting for her to ask about her rocking chair, I also have a box of her things here for her as well.

But the shock was the move home -- I didn't expect that. It raises so many questions. By "home" does she mean with her parents, or just back up to Canada? Is OM going with her? Signs point to no, as I get the feeling (and since she knows I have her parents' address) that by home, she meant send anything of hers to her parents' place. I suppose it's POSSIBLE that OM would leave this country to live with her, but very very unlikely, I'd gander. Switching countries ain't easy these days. Unless they both got job transfers which again, IS possible as their company is international.

The other curious stuff: Why not until January? Her lease (assuming it was a 12 month) would be up in November. And why tell me this now? I haven't had anything to send her and don't expect I ever will. But couldn't she have told me this at a later time? Monday even, in person?

I guess I need to eat my hat because from the sound of things, when January comes, that will be the end of her and OM, unless my instincts are wrong and they are moving together. Or it may even already be over. I stand corrected on my earlier statements today.

I am curious to know so much, yet not sure if it's even my place to ask, if she wants me to ask, or what. Some of you may say this is an attempt at reaching out, maybe recovery. That I really don't believe, but you never know. She is still ready and willing to continue on with the divorce it seems. And even if she wasn't, she'd need to say that, not drop a bread crumb. I've been doing this 11 months and I don't like bread crumbs anymore. They just make me thirsty.

Regardless, if we are divorcing as it seems to be, none of this is really my business anymore. Frankly, if she is moving home, I am happy about that. I am happy for her. I think it's the best place for her to be to discover what she needs in life, and I hope that she finds it. It was always my preferred solution to her staying here and being with OM if she didn't want our marriage. I will wish her the best.

-- A very confused ALS.

it's a little off topic, my friend, but as i was reading this all i could think was:

"you've got a weird thing for canadian melodrama."
"no. i've got a weird thing for girls that say aboot."

glad yer doing well, all things considered.

ALS:

I think in a weird way, that she's trying 2 reach out 2 you, trying 2 put the ball back in your court.

Or maybe I just think in a weird way!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'd be interested in Cerri's opinion on this. Sure she didn't have 2 say anthing 2 you until she meets with you, so why did she?

I like your bread crumb/thirsty metaphor. I feel like that sometimes, and our sitch never got as far along as yours has.

-ol' 2long

Whippit - Hey, I've NEVER heard that one before. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

2long - It could be reaching out, or it could be just what it is at face value. As usual, I have nothing to go on but instinct and my own feelings on the matter.

It's really too little to tell or make any judgements on.

I'm waiting to hear what Cerri thinks as well. She and I go way back so I'm sure she'll at least be able to help me with this in the proper way, she's been perfect from the start.

But you're right, and I agree, there was really no reason that she needed to introduce this information at this point in time.

I think we all like tasty crumbs but at some point they're just not enough.

ALS

heh heh heh.

ALS-

I have to agree with 2long. She's trying to reach out but isn't sure how. Give it some time and see if she contacts again. My bet - and I know I owe you some Yankee rickets <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> - is that she will email again very soon and very low key.

I know that you are in a different place now then when we first starting going over this. That's good.

Baby steps...

She is putting her toe in the water.

Well there really won't be a chance to learn that, Kily -- I do gotta respond to her with a time/place for our papers to be notarized on Monday. So I really want to be courteous and do that today or tomorrow. I'll also let her know she can get her rocking chair whenever she pleases.

The only real question is if I pursue asking her about moving home. Waiting to hear Cerri's thoughts on that. If ignoring it and waiting to see if it that particular topic comes up again is what you mean, I see. And that's what I just might do. We'll need to see each other I believe at least two more times after money as the divorce process finalizes.

I'm definitely in a much different place now than I was 11 months ago. Things just feel different.

But I won't be able to give this time or wait for contact. I do need to at least get back to her and answer those questions before Monday.

ALS

Perhaps you should call Cerri?

ALS,

Just stopping by.....this is an interesting little twist, isn't it now? I think it is what you described it....a crumb. And for now, you won't know what the real significance of it is. It does do several things however. She is essentially telling you that the R with OM is over. She wants you to have that information. The question is why? There's a ton of possibilities ranging from interest to bitterness. But I'll tell you this.....IF it is a reaching out.....the care and consistency of your Plan B will serve you very well. All of her early complaints about the stalking etc. disappeared like a whiff of smoke. You have done really well. I'll be interested to hear about the meeting on Monday. As always chere....my prayers are with you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Folks let's not get ahead of ourselves here for there has to be more communication from her side before we can be certain what is happening. For all we know, the OM may still be involved with her.

ALS don't get your hopes up and continue to move on with your life. You are stronger now and know that without a committment from her to come back and work on the marriage, you run the risk of a false recovery. This is not to suggest that you should shut her off completely from your life, but that a marriage cannot thrive, much less survive, on crumbs from one spouse towards the other, so stay strong.

Thanks star, thanks TMCM. You both make some great points.

The relationship with OM may or may not be over. It may be over now, it may be over by January, it may be carrying back home with her if he accompanies her. There's no telling. OM may not even know she plans to move back home yet. She has a birthday coming up in 2 weeks, which I know she'd rather not spend alone.

If this IS a message that it's ending or over with OM, I appreciate knowing that. I don't feel like this is enough to change my plan or outlook on this at all, to me it's just a small tidbit that doesn't have any direct bearing on anything. Thanks, star, I think what you're saying about Plan B is very true -- I can say openly to all who have been reading this thread: Plan B really has worked wonders for me in allowing me to move on and let go.

TMCM, I hear ya. No way am I risking a false recovery. No way, no how. If you asked me what it would take for me to give this another try, to convince me she was sincere, I couldn't even tell you what that would be. I guess I'd know it when I saw it. But I don't expect that at this point.

I think right now, I’m not feeling like taking a lot of action towards opening up a dialogue. I feel I need a more honest approach from her before I do anything like that again. I went into Plan B fully ready to go the distance, and it looks like that may be what happens. The thing I need to remember here is that she is still getting together Monday to sign more divorce papers, and she is coming to the house to pick up the last of her things. These are not attempts to save the marriage, these, taken at face value, are the endings of things, not a new start.

I certainly feel I can be open to her, receptive, but not take any initiative or let my guard down. That’s where I stand.

Okay, but here's the kicker: Today I responded to W’s email with this simple little tidbit:

“We can meet at the same place as last time, at noon, on Monday. Yes your rocking chair is here and I have another box of things for you, too, you can pick them up anytime, just let me know.”

Not even an hour later, I got this back:

“Alright I will probably not be able to do it on Monday, I am swamped at work. But probably Tuesday after work.”.

So she wants to come by the house next week, on Tuesday, to get her things. I know her work, and there’s really no reason she couldn’t do it on Monday either. She’s normally out at 5 or early in the evening.

But you know what Tuesday is? Our second wedding anniversary. And she’s got to be aware of that. Her first day to the house since April will be our second anniversary. What’s up with that? Is she trying to see me on our second anniversary for some reason?

I had originally intended, when she wanted her stuff, to leave it in the garage and let her know she could help herself to it. That way she wouldn’t have to come into the house and we wouldn't need to see each other. Now due to the date she's chosen and this new information, I am not sure what to do. Do I leave it there and tell her to just help herself to it on Tuesday via email? Do I invite her in?

By the by, she could easily pick up this stuff on her lunch hour as well: She only ever came over after work before when she wanted to come in and stay. But again, I could be totally overreacting and wrong. The anniversary could just be a coincidence, right?

So confusing. Any thoughts? Personalyl I still haven't heard or felt anything to make me think otherwise, so I am planning to just stay out of the way, Plan B style, but I am curious as always to hear the thoughts of those here.

ALS

<small>[ September 06, 2003, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: ALostSoul ]</small>

just do what you would normally do. something tells me you're not a leave-it-in-the-garage kind of guy. my two pennies about the other things is that she's not oblivious of your anniversary. can't say what it all means (won't even hazard a guess), but it wouldn't surprise me if she's trying to tell you something. keep yer peepers open and be yourself.

you've come so far.

Dear ALS:

Just be civil and polite just as you would with anyone you knew.

Please protect yourself my friend. sometime it is just what it is. Keep everthing at face value and arm's length.

All my best.

Jack