Dear Ms Red

Read the post from 2OFAKIND, he says it true.

This man cheats on his wife with you but you think he loves you, not her, even after 2 years...Trust us here, he is telling her you are nothing just easy and sleazy. And why does she believe him?...well because your actions tell her it's true.
Now, here's my question to you... How do you KNOW FOR A FACT that she knows you were in her house, that you got expensive gifts ect.? It sounds to me like you let her know. That my dear, is just plain cruel. And yet he is still not with you, trust me it's because he has done some pretty fast skating and told her all kinds of loving things AND denied you.

Yes you should get out of this and never get together with a married man again.
Can I "respectfully" tell you a little story about a wife who had affection, love letters, gifts, nice outings, sex, was told all the time she was her husband's soulmate, and on and on... Well this cute, loving, honest, faithful, working on her marriage woman had no clue her husband was seeing another woman on the side, none. Actually if someone would have told her she would have smiled and told them they were wrong. One morning after the man and wife had a nice date and sex, the hubby tells the wife he has been unfaithful "because she deserves to know". He tells her it was never love, it was just a timely ego (ahem) stroke. The wife fights for days not to kill herself. The wife suffers both physically and mentally like she never has before and she will likely suffer from this until the day she dies. The wife really never earned this, she just loved and trusted. If her husband had died, she would mourn with dignity but here she mourns but has had her dignity stolen. This is my story and let me tell you, I think the OW is scum. My husband was terrible but so was this woman. Had the OW been a friend to him, she would have said from the beginning to go tell any dissatisfaction in his marriage to his wife. And a woman with any respect either for herself or for innocent, unsuspecting people would never get involved with a married man.

I am heartbroken, I am afraid to trust, I am hurt sexually, I had to be tested for STD's after 15 years with him, I am in therapy, have lost weight (in my case not a good thing) have taken medication to sleep, am haunted, feel unloved, foolish for trusting and yet, my husband begs me to give him just one chance. This is what you have helped do to another woman.
Yes it is ugly. Stop. Become a better person and never hurt anyone that way again. Please.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">does she really believe that he will just stop seeing this other woman and just overnight stop loving her and seeing her just because he says so? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No. If she is honest w/ herself, she doesn't believe this.... but because he hasn't left her yet... she keeps hoping that he will stop seeing the OW and rededicate himself to the marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can she tell herself that and how does she do that? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">hope springs eternal? She probably does it for the same reasons you have been willing to be an OW for two years. You love him. She loves him. She has history with him. maybe kids. She's not ready to give up on her marriage or him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He never stopped calling or seeing me from day one after the blow-out yet she seems to be just fine now, believing that he will never see me again and all is well. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unless YOU see her day-to-day, you cannot believe this. I know I didn't believe he would stop seeing OW... I still find it hard to believe that 'they' don't have plans to meet up in the future. I still have the fear. Perhaps she is just doing well @ hiding her fears.

Both wife and OW would do well to put up some GOOD BOUNDARIES w/ their H or MM.

Cali

MS. Red,

He does not love you, if he did he would be showing you more respect than this. He is disrespecting you.

My WH, finds those who are involved in A's as totally disgusting. However, he himself is involved in an A. Go figure. So, if he thinks people who cheat are disgusting, what does he thing of his OW. I know, "she is fun" Well of course she is, she does not have to deal with the responsiblilities of bills, house cleaning, hockey schedules, dance schedules, soccer schedules, school schedules, work schedules. Paying bills on unemployment. You name it, I have been through it with him. She has the freedom to get up and go when she feels like it. I cannot, I have kids who are too young to be left at home alone. He wants the thrill and freedom of a single life, and he wants his family life.

My H cheated on me once before, we split up over it. At this time, we had 2 children, and were not married. We were supposed to get married. The plans were cancelled after D-Day (which of course he denied). (still does). 6 months later, we are dating, sort of. Mostly he came over to see the kids, and things started to work themselves out. Two years later we married. I found out recently that she is still in his life, probably was never out of it. Why did he chose to marry me and not her? Probably because he does not respect her. He also does not respect me. If he did, he would not be seeing her. He sneaks around. We now have 3 children and have been married 5 years. Do the math, do you want to find yourself 7 years later and still the OW? That is 7 years wasted on a man who will more than likely cheat on you. Mine cheated on her with me. I didn't know they were still together. He told me that they were not together. Remember, he denies that they ever were together. He did not like it when I started moving on with my life. He realized he was losing me. And in reality he was.

Do not give this man any more of your time. He is not worth it. You need to find yourself a single man who will respect you and cherish you for who you are. Not someone that has to sneak around with you.

I would hate to see you waste anymore time on this relationship. He has no intentions of leaving her. If he did, he would have.

Here is a statistic to think about. Only about 5% of affairs result in successful marriages. A prettly low amount. I would not bet my future on this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Ms. Red:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by jph:
<strong>Ms Red...how do you know that you know the whole story? He's lying to you just as he's lying to her.

I wonder if you were so confident of your relationship would you feel the need to post here.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not confident about anything, that is why all the questions regarding all three of us. I'm trying to understand. I have absolutely no idea what he tells her anymore than she does of what he tells me. I know that much. I think he is trying to stuff everything back in and have what he did before without scrutiny from her or questions from me. Thanks for your input.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is this for real? We live in a country where women are FREE to choose their partner and you are with someone else's man who is a liar and a cheat? My God. What a frivolous, insane forfeiture of one's freedom. You don't have to settle for that. We are not in Afghanistan. Please start using your freedom wisely.

Maybe it's because I'm in Recovery.....or that I've let go of all the anger and I no longer "think" about my H's A or the OW that let's me think "outside the box".

My H's OW never really hurt me, even though she was involved in an A with my H. Yes....she clung to the relationship she had with my H just as I did. Why.....because she loved him as much as I did. It was't a fantasy....it was real.

It wasn't possible for my H to love us both equally.....but it was possible for both of us to love him as much as we did. Therefore both of us kept fighting for what we wanted. My H.

Why did she feel justified in doing this? Because my H fed her a pack of lies.....and who was she going to believe....him or me? That's a no brainer.

Why is that some of us can't understand that with the lies that the WS tells that the feelings the OP has aren't justified. They are capable of loving just as much as we are....and ALL A's are NOT fantasies.

I can put myself in the OW's shoes now and I can honestly tell you.....with what she had to go on.....I would have faught as hard as she did for my H.

I'm used to being flamed.....and I'm sure it won't be the last time.

Of course at first I also blamed everything on the OW.......why?
Because by blaming her I didn't have to blame the person I loved the most....my H.
She did it all......she lured him into it....she kept making contact.....she did it all.

Not true.....my H knew exactly what he was doing.......he kept luring her.....and he kept contacting her.

Why didn't she just tell him to get lost?
Because she loved him......just as much as I did.

Sometimes it's not so easy to do the right thing.

Miss Priss, Honey and others....thank you for your replies. Some were very thoughtful and thought provoking. Miss Priss, I think you understand the situation a lot. There are no children involved. That does not make me a "better" OW, just one that wouldn't be involved if there were. They don't have children together.

I never really had expectations about what she or he would or would not do. Well, he had already told me what he would do and he did. Because he said the thing he SHOULD have done was deal with the marriage first and leave if he needed to, but not have an affair. He just never planned to have the feelings become involved the way they did.

I will leave it up to the forum here and look for a general feeling among you as to whether to continue to post. To everyone that did, thanks and take care.

Ms. Red, does it make you feel really good that this MM has "feelings" for you? That he bought you gifts, took you on trips, and proclaimed his love? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I'm sorry, but I tend to agree with most of the posters here. He's using you. Consider the gifts a payoff for sex. If he "really loved you" he would not still be with his wife after two years.

If you won't think about his wife, then think of yourself. How old are you? Do you want to spend the best years of your life servicing a MM? What happens when you wish to marry for yourself...will you be able to find someone? Think of your future...ditch him and find someone who is available to you.

Okay Ms. Red, I cannot let the below statement go without addressing it:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ms. Red wrote:
There are no children involved. That does not make me a "better" OW, just one that wouldn't be involved if there were. They don't have children together. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have to say I needed to count to 10 before typing this, Hon.

So it's okay to be involved with a married man if he doesn't have children???!!!

I have to ask, do you respect the marriage vow? I suspect you would if it were YOUR marriage.

Regardless if they have children or not, how can you reconcile respecting marriage vows, yet you are invading someone else's marriage? That's exactly what you are doing.

This justification of "there's no children, so it's not so bad" is just that, it's a form of denial. You are significantly contributing to the destruction of a marriage. If it were your marriage, believe me, you'd be feeling quite differently, children or no children.

Try some empathy or compassion, Hon. Just because it's only one person you & MM are completely devistating, as opposed to two or three or four people, does not make it OKAY.

Discovery of infidelity in your marraige is more traumatic than the death of a loved one. We've had members come here contemplating suicide because of it. Maybe it's just one person (his wife) to you, but she is just as feeling and human as you.

<Still counting to cool off ....>

Jo

<small>[ March 18, 2003, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ms. Red
Junior Member
Member # 26437

posted March 18, 2003 08:16 PM
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Miss Priss, Honey and others....thank you for your replies. Some were very thoughtful and thought provoking. Miss Priss, I think you understand the situation a lot. There are no children involved. That does not make me a "better" OW, just one that wouldn't be involved if there were. They don't have children together. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ms. Red,

I cannot say that I understand the situation......but I can understand the feelings involved. I can understand that the feelings that you have for him is what makes it so hard for you to let go.

In no way have I ever said that I think what you are doing is right......it's not. It's not for you......him....or his wife.

Whether or not they have children SHOULD NOT make a difference to you. Either way they are still married....children or no children.

He obvioulsy isn't going to leave his wife.....I think you should know that by now.

Do I think your the "bad guy"? No.

If that riles people up and gets me flamed....that's fine....it's my opinion.

I don't blame the OW in my situation. She was made to believe that we were getting a divorce.....the reason it was taking so long he told her was because he needed to give me time to get a job so I could support our children after the divorce......seems like a believable excuse to me.

So.....thinking that she would have my H to herself.....she let her feelings grow even more.....not her fault my H was lying to her the whole time.

Was their A a fantasy? No.

They had TRUE feelings for each other. They even went so far as discussing the possibility of having children together. Not sure the thought of marriage passed their minds or not though.

What turned my H against her?

Not the way she treated him or our daughters.....or me for that fact. It was the way she handled her divorce...her children...and her ex H. It had nothing to do with my H....me or our children.

Lucky for him I had enough feelings left for him to take him back........though he knows that something like this happening again will certainly end up in divorce....by my choice.

In no way do I agree with A's.......but being on both sides of the fence.....I understand HOW they happen....and WHY they happen.....and why it's so hard to let go on either side.

The best thing for you to do is break away from this guy.....he's a classic WS. He'll string you and wife along for as long as you both let him.

Remember........people treat you the way YOU allow them to treat you.

<small>[ March 19, 2003, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: Miss Priss ]</small>

The sad thing about this ow is that she's making herself feel better by rationalizing that there's no children involved. Little does she know that her actions are definately affecting children yet born. If this marriage survives this affair which more than likely will happen as he's made no move to leave his wife, the children born into this marriage will suffer from the damage they have done to the relationship between husband and wife. She can rationalize that it's his fault but in truth ow is just as responsible.

The horrors I've experience over the past few years I wouldn't go through again for love nor money (an old southern expression)...they're horrible yet the lessons I've learned are priceless and could only have come about by experience. With all that said, I'd rather be in my position than my h. I have the heartache-I don't have the searing guilt on top of it. In the past few year, my h has aged 10 and we're seeing the ramifications from that situation in our daughter and it's heartbreaking. Not a pretty picture.

Go ahead, ow, continue in this relationship, look for rationalizations, live in the dream world that this will eventually have a positive impact, waste your life...but know this, when you come out of the back end of this, you'll experience heartache that you can't begin to imagine right now. And when you come to the end of your life, I would be willing to bet that this relationship will top the list of things you regret.

Ms. Red,

I, for one, am glad you came to this board. I usually hang out over at the pregnancy/child board because...well because that is where my H's affair landed us. He has a child he rarely sees, we spend 20% of his pay for 21 years on child support and I have a step child.

Their relationship lasted 7 years (on and off). It began when he was 32 and she was 23. One of the first things I said to him was "Shame on you for stealing her young years from her, for robbing her of the time when she should have been finding a single man and starting a family of her own."

He and I are together and are in recovery. She lives life as a successful and good single mother. She is raising a wonderful child but she is alone, something she never wanted. We have gone on to adopt two children. exOW and their daughter, Precious, live 2,000 miles from us and we make visits when we can. We have worked out some sort of a working relationship between the three adults, but none of the children know of the other ones---yet but the time is coming when we will have to tell them. exOW would like for she and I to be friends. I have more empathy for exOW than most women in my situation, but a friendship between us is not possible, she tried to steal my life--regardless of if there were children in our marriage or not. She wanted my husband, his (then) huge income, our (almost) jet set life. Besides, a friendship with her would be a huge betrayl on my part of our marriage. If I told stories on him to her or formed some sort of alliance against him it would be (almost) as wrong as what he did. One thing I am grateful for is that both he and she admit that he never, not once in 7 years tore me down in front of her. Shame on your MM for doing that to his wife.

The saddest thing I think I have ever heard is that she told me "When I lost your husband, I lost my best friend." I felt physically ill. If she can define what he did to her (and she willingly participated in) as friendship I am very, well I don't know what I am....What he did was use two women to meet his own selfish needs. He was a "friend" to neither one of us and I told him so. I said "for seven years you were not my friend, you were, in fact, my worst enemy, living in my home. You willingly did, over and over again, what nearly drove me to suicide. (I spent 6 weeks in a psychiatric hospital after D-day.) You stole money from our marriage, you created a child in the face of my infertility, you lied to me each and every day, every time you told me you loved me was a lie because when you love someone you don't do what you did." I also said "But I have faith in you. You had great integrity when I met and married you. I believe that you can be that person again, but you will have to show me that you are capable of that. You don't get points for just staying."

He suffered through two years of hideous depression and searing guilt for his actions--and I didn't rub his face in it either. To the contrary, I did my best to help him recover. I am much further along in recovery than he is. I am not sure he will ever be the man I married. He is honest and faithful once again, he is good to me, he is a good father, but he is, in many ways, a shell of his former self. And I don't mean his income, which is 1/5th of what it used to be, I mean he is wounded to the depths of his soul. He may never feel worthy again.

You are not only particpating in the potential destruction of his wife and his marriage, but you may be a major player in the destruction of this man you love.

Please get out now before all involved are destroyed and you wind up a single mother.

Blessings,
MJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will leave it up to the forum here and look for a general feeling among you as to whether to continue to post </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ms. Red,
You are welcome to post, just remember this is MarriageBuilders and you are not the one in the marriage.

You will have a great deal of support for getting out of this affair. I doubt I'm exaggerating if I say you will have NO support for continuing.

If you have the time, check the posts of Katie Scarlet . She is a former OW who has been posting here since 11/01 (700+ posts). She's out of her affair and in a good relationship with a single guy. I personally really respect the changes she has made in her life.

Well said, Lor. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Ms. Red:
<strong>There are no children involved. That does not make me a "better" OW, just one that wouldn't be involved if there were. They don't have children together.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, you are saying you COULD control behaviours that are related to your emotions IF there were children involved. But, since there are no children involved you cannot? It's "ok" to aid and abet in the emotional harm of an adult as long as no kids are around? How is this even a pretense at logic or ethics?

If he had lied and said there were no children and you later discovered there were, would you leave the relationship? If so, why?

I am trying without success to understand this line of thinking. Best I can come up with is that adults are fair game? That you don't "owe" anything to the wife, but you would "owe" something to any children they might have? It's ethically acceptable to be the recipient of stolen goods (any $ spent on you is stolen from the marital assets) as long as they are stolen from the wife and not children?

Is this correct?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Miss Priss:
<strong>Maybe it's because I'm in Recovery.....or that I've let go of all the anger and I no longer "think" about my H's A or the OW that let's me think "outside the box".

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Miss Priss, I think often folks here confuse a rightful anger at flagrant INJUSTICE with a supposed bias and wrongly try to dismiss it. One doesn't have to have been the victim of an affair to get angry at the malicious, despicable actions of an OP *AND* the WS. The OP also hurts the BS so it doesn't work to try and pretend they don't cause great damage and contribute to the injustice. I don't believe its "thinking outside of the box" to sit silently in the face of evil, but rather the result of a muted conscience or moral cowardice.

Good people do get angry when they see injustice and I think that better explains some of the strong reactions here, rather than some kind of imagined "growth" on the part of those who have no reaction to injustice.

<small>[ March 19, 2003, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Melodylane,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The OP also hurts the BS so it doesn't work to try and pretend they don't cause great damage and contribute to the injustice. I don't believe its "thinking outside of the box" to sit silently in the face of evil, but rather the result of a muted conscience or moral cowardice.

Good people do get angry when they see injustice and I think that better explains some of the strong reactions here, rather than some kind of imagined "growth" on the part of those who have no reaction to injustice </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WOW! Fantastic! Well,said and oh,so true. Thanks. kk

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong>[QUOTE]I think often folks here confuse a rightful anger at flagrant INJUSTICE with a supposed bias and wrongly try to dismiss it. One doesn't have to have been the victim of an affair to get angry at the malicious, despicable actions of an OP *AND* the WS. The OP also hurts the BS so it doesn't work to try and pretend they don't cause great damage and contribute to the injustice. I don't believe its "thinking outside of the box" to sit silently in the face of evil, but rather the result of a muted conscience or moral cowardice.

Good people do get angry when they see injustice and I think that better explains some of the strong reactions here, rather than some kind of imagined "growth" on the part of those who have no reaction to injustice.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To paraphrase one of my favourite quotes ~The only way for evil [read: a wrong, an injustice] to triumph is for good people to do nothing. And if good people do nothing, then they aren't so good.~

Crayongirl, I know I am quoting this wrong, but my favorite rendition of your thought is:

"Evil thrives when good men stand silent."

Amazing how silence has become a supposed "virtue" in this generation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> MelodyLane
Member
Member # 9787

posted March 19, 2003 07:01 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Miss Priss:
Maybe it's because I'm in Recovery.....or that I've let go of all the anger and I no longer "think" about my H's A or the OW that let's me think "outside the box".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Miss Priss, I think often folks here confuse a rightful anger at flagrant INJUSTICE with a supposed bias and wrongly try to dismiss it. One doesn't have to have been the victim of an affair to get angry at the malicious, despicable actions of an OP *AND* the WS. The OP also hurts the BS so it doesn't work to try and pretend they don't cause great damage and contribute to the injustice. I don't believe its "thinking outside of the box" to sit silently in the face of evil, but rather the result of a muted conscience or moral cowardice.

Good people do get angry when they see injustice and I think that better explains some of the strong reactions here, rather than some kind of imagined "growth" on the part of those who have no reaction to injustice.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't believe its "thinking outside of the box" to sit silently in the face of evil, but rather the result of a muted conscience or moral cowardice. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So I am sitting silently in the face of evil and I am a coward morally?

I do believe I've told Ms. Red that what I think what she is doing is wrong....I think she knows that.....I don't think she needs it explained in detail of all the things that are wrong with it.

I'm also pretty sure that I'm not a coward....in any way shape or form. I say what's on my mind....and speak my opinion......whether others agree with it or not.....doesn't matter to me since others are allowed to have thier own opinions....nobody has to agree with me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good people do get angry when they see injustice and I think that better explains some of the strong reactions here, rather than some kind of imagined "growth" on the part of those who have no reaction to injustice. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now I have imagined "growth" and have no reaction to injustice........and I'm not "good" people......because I don't seem to get angry at "injustice".

I don't believe I ever said that nobody here has a right to be angry.

As I've had to explain over and over.....I post according to MY OWN experiences. What I took from it, got out of it.....and what I went through, what I felt.

Why don't I seem angry? Because Ms. Red never did anything to me. She isn't my H's FOW. I feel more pity for her than anything really. Wasting her time with a man that isn't worth her or his wifes time.

One would think that I was an OW......just because I speak my mind.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Why don't I seem angry? Because Ms. Red never did anything to me. She isn't my H's FOW."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MissPriss

Maybe it doesn't make you "angry" to see injustice done to other people. Some people can sit right by and watch all sorts of destruction and never have a flutter of the heart as long as it happens to someone else. However, most people are not like that. Nor is it a sign of "growth," but a lack of empathy at best.

You differentiated yourself from the others who did show rightful anger by dismissing their opinions as "biased" and claiming that your lack of reaction was from "growth."

I am only saying that whatever the reason you can stand silent in the face of evil, I assure you it is anything BUT "growth." Your remark that "Why don't I seem angry? Because Ms. Red never did anything to me. She isn't my H's FOW." says it all.

I am not trying to pick on you, but I only wanted to point out how wrong and misguided it is to dismiss strong reactions to injustice as a "lack of growth." It is anything BUT.

<small>[ March 20, 2003, 10:18 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>