MM,
Don't throw in the towel just yet, give the AD's a chance to work. When they do kick in you will begin to feel much more in control, and things will not look so hopeless.

I can go through your bullets as Mortarman did and my wife's responses are nearly exact as well. MM, it takes time and patience. I know right now you don't feel like you have either one, but I'm telling you that you can make it through this.

Try and direct your energy to something productive. Spend time with your children, that was the first thing that opened my wife's eyes. When I stopped following her around the house from room to room, and began playing games with the kids, reading to them, listening to them read, etc. was when she took a step back and saw a change. I know it's not easy right now, all you want to do is concentrate on fixing your marriage, the kids don't always help. But, you have to do it for them, for you, and for your marriage.

My wife also said that she had her mind made up and OM just complicated things. First by becoming her best friend, then by becoming her lover. My wife too wouldn't let me touch her, talk to her, got angry when I did something right, wanted me to "just accept it", even went so far as to place an ad on a singles site for me so I would find someone else, fall in love with them, and forget about her. My wife too has drawn up seperation papers, went apartment shopping, is buying things for "her place", etc. But, if you ask her today what it is about me NOW that she doesn't like, can't stand, etc. she can't give you an answer. None, nada, zip, zilch. She can't find anything wrong with me, so now she has to live with the fact if she does leave it's not my fault, it's hers. This is because I stuck to (and continue) a good Plan A. Yes, of course I had slip ups, everyone does. But, if you stick to it she will begin to see the changes in you and will begin to soften.

Stay strong MM, be patient, and pray that His will be done, give it to Him COMPLETELY and allow him to soften her and put the love back in her heart.

tm.. is she still with you .. My WW OM..apparently called it off.. My WW says that I treated her like garbage for the past four yaers and squished her under my heal.. she says that she has used up all her heart for me..and it is empty.. the woman means business..give me some of your points for your plan A as well.. I have spoken to my mother who tells me that I need to shut up and stop crying.. I am doing my best to keep a great paln A.. but seem to be falling on my face.. My WW has no palns to leave and move into her own aprtment.. she wants me to go.. in order to keep a stable lifev for the girls.. Why me leave .. I don't want to break it up... I have beentaking the meds for a few days.. not sure how strong they are..but I am still emotional...Is your wife still with you.. is she allowing you to touch her?? mine is so distant.. she just wants me to get wityh it and let the process begin..NO interest in a future life with MM.. not so ever..
all her love is gone...advise please!!

Dont leave - under no circumstances. She is the one leaving the , so she should leave physically, if she wishes to choose so. It's again the magic-button thing you know, you should leave - puff, out of sight, out of mind, all problems solved. That's not the way it works. Be at home, focus on your kids.

MM,
Yes, she is still with me, but still talks about leaving. She said the same things, but now she has softened some. My wife also felt like I had treated her like dirt for the past several years, and that she didn't love me anymore, she didn't want to, etc. She too meant business, and she still may leave. But, now I see her doubting her decision despite what she says; her actions speak differently than her words.

This is the link to a thread on my Plan A. Is This "Plan A"?

Your mother is right, stop crying and running around the house like a lost puppy. Sorry to sound so harsh, but right now you really need to pull yourself together. Remember, you are trying to make it difficult to follow through with her decision, right now you are making it that much easier. You don't want her to remember you like this, you want her to remember the sweet, caring, strong and resourceful MM.

DON'T LEAVE. Be firm in this. Tell her that this is not your decision, and you WILL NOT leave. If she wants out it is her decision and you will not support it. Make her go out and find an apartment, make her pay her own bills, make her do all the leg work.

My wife now allows me to touch her, and be close to her. But, in the beginning she was EXACTLY like your wife. You and your wife are not as different from the rest of us as you might think. I went through the same desperation and hopelessness that you are going through. She was as cold and bitter as your wife appears to be. But, with time (and a good Plan A) things change.

Marathonman,

Let me get to your post first.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mortrman.. how did you get the "goods" on Mrs MO.. Mrs MM swears by it but I know that she has do it..and she wants me to believe her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, I understand you wanting the "goods." I do. First of all, I cannot discuss on here exactly how I got the goods on Mrs. MO. But I can say that some of the info I ended up getting was straight from her mouth. How? Well, have you ever played poker? You ever had a bad hand, and bluffed your way into a win? What I did was that I bluffed her into thinking I knew more than I did. Sure…I had a lot of info. But I was also missing some. By acting like you know EVERYTHING (not telling her…acting like), she soon realized that it didn't matter if she told me or not. And then she just spilled the beans. And sometimes, she told me stuff I didn't know, and would have had no idea, if she hadnt of told me herself. Of course, she never knew, nor will she ever know, exactly how much I know or knew. I didn't lie to her. But I also didn't let her know what I knew. So, my suggestion is to bluff…to make like you know more than you do…that you know things.

Here is an example. The wrong way: "I know you are sleeping with him. I had you followed, and I saw you go into that motel room with him." Well, that's all fine and dandy if you actually did this. But, if this is a lie, then what if she has never gone into a motel with him? You just lied to her. Now she will continue to not trust you. HUGE LB!

Now, let's take something similar, but do it the right way. "You know…it is so easy to prove marital infidelity today. With GPS car trackers, cell phone monitors, bugs, etc…it is so easy for someone to find out exactly what is going on." Now, did I say I was doing anything? No. Was there a lie in there? No. But, she will wonder why you said this. She will probably ask if you have done anything like this to her. First off, watch her face and demeanor. It will tell a lot about what she feels about what you said. You can tell if you just hit on the truth. But, when she asks a question like that, don't lie! Never lie…this is your wife. But, you don't have to answer the question. Most often, I would turn a question like that back on her. Like…"wait a minute…does it really matter if I am doing anything like that or not? I mean, you said there was nothing physical going on, so if I am doing something like this, I would find nothing." Again, no lies here. She still doesn't know what you know. But due to her reactions, as well as her statements after this, you will get the info you want. Eventually, she will feel that there is no use denying what she is doing.

But…I want to caution you MM. I told you this because you asked. I have to also say that finding out the answers probably will not be helpful. And in going through the process of finding out may actually hurt things some. Everyone here has told you…just presume that she has and is…and get on with Plan A and fixing yourself. If you spend your time and energy in this, you will divert it away from something more important, and risk driving her further away.

The truth ALWAYS comes out in the end. When it is time for recovery, then you can worry about what she is doing, and who she is with. Right now, there are more important things to concentrate on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Once again it really seems that the end is on its way... Man she really does not love me... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You do not know this! She doesn't know…so how can you know? Stop listening to the psychobabble that filters out of the fog. It sounds sincere. But it has very little reality to it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and Plan A is hard to keep up..but I'm doing my best. Met with my boss yestaerday who understands and is concerned.. but he also telling e to let her go so I can get my mind back on my job... otherwise I may lose that as well. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I began screwing up my job. Don't do this! Your job and your kids are two GREAT ways to keep you busy. Concentrate on them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am praying like there is no tomorrow but I have to stop LBING.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You do need to stop LBing. You wont stop completely, and that is okay. You are human. But she needs to see the good side of MM, so if she goes, she will go knowing she left a great guy. And that will eat at her the rest of her life, as she ends up with loser after loser. But, if you show her the great MM, I have a sneaky suspicion that she will like what she sees. And eventually, she will try to re-establish contact as "friends." And then the fog will continue to lift. And she will see the guy she fell in love with. And then she will fall in love again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I really think that Mrs. MM is very serious.. fire in her eyes.. I am trying to get her to go to coucelling.. I have told her just for support for me.. she said if it is for us to get back together forget it.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mrs. MO and I went to counseling several times right before we separated. She said it was to help me get over it, not to get the marriage back. She even talked to Steve Harley several times. Now, did it work? Did the counseling keep her from leaving? Nope. She left two days after her last talk with Steve. Read SAA, about the couple in the beginning. Sue did the same thing. But, the info they get from the counseling, added to the fact that you have sought counseling, added to the fact that they will see you go to counseling even if they don't…well, as Mrs. MO recently said…those things weighed on her mind the whole time. You have to look at Plan A as planting seeds. They will not grow overnight. But you have to trust that they will grow. Don't stand out in the middle of the field night after night yelling at the seeds to grow, and crying because they havent come up yet. Go work on something else, and wait. They will grow.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know that I'm starting to sound like a broken record..but I raelly feel hopeless. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How big is your God? Sure, it is hopeless for you. It was hopeless for me. But Christ had a different plan for my wife. And nothing is hopeless for Him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> what ever happened to her marriage vows???? the ironic thing is that she wants to save her weddings rings to give the girls when they are older... for what reason... to show them that she not love her father and its okay to not honor your wedding vow... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All the same questions I have asked. She even said the same thing about her wedding rings. I told her "You want to give those rings to our daughter for what? To show her the meaning of failure?" but, what I didn't know was…it had nothing to do with my daughter. Deep down, those rings still had significance…even if she couldn't admit it. Even to herself.

Marathonman, settle down some more. Those ADs should start kicking in by next week. That will help. Like someone said above, look at this as a 6 month project, at least. She isnt going to get this overnight. It is going to probably take 6 months of you being you, and working on you, for her to begin to see it and trust it.

But, it may be less because you have two things going for you right now. First, OM is back with his wife. Sure, that might not last. But just understand, in the back of your wife's mind, she is playing second fiddle to the OM's wife. That is a HUGE LB on his part! Second, she is still at home. Just don't discuss the living arrangements anymore. Nor divorce. She knows where you stand. Now start living your life again. With your family, and yourself. In the end, if you take off on the road of life, she may just be like Mrs. MO and just walk up to you one day and ask if you mind if she walks with you again.

Have faith. In God. In the plan. And in yourself. Read and study. Get your battle plan ready, so you will know exactly what she will do next. That way you will be prepared to do what is necessary.

Hang in there. This is a long process. You can do this. Really…what other choice do you have?

In His arms.

<small>[ March 26, 2003, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

okay..last night had a major fight..drug out a long time...everything from her not wanting to leave..
1.crying about having to uproot the girls and find a new house for them
2. she says that no matter if I turned into the nicest guy she still wants out..I DONT WANT TO BE WITH YOU..
3. you dont know how to love me.
4.I am calling my lawyer because I cant handle you near me..
5. says I treated her like garbage for last four years.. not willing to go on..absolutely no future
there is so much more Mortarman...If you can only see her eyes.. you would realize that my situation is hopeless to say the least..I asked her to go to coucelling to give some insight..she is non commital..fact is.. the marriage is done.. I cant wait around for her to come out of the fog.. she says I dont love her because of all the LBing.. I AM HUMAN.. the last three months have been a result of what she is doing...she thinks that I should have been over all this by now.. and on with my life.. who does she think she is..I am shattered..she says thatshe has no heaert forn me.. upset because I have been trying to kiss her and saying everyday that I think we can have a better marriage..angry about this and that..Plan A is going down the tubes.. says that she is going to call her lawyer today to get me out..that way the house is hers..I am trying .. maybe not hard enough..I haven't shut up..and I am trying hard to keep praying... Mortarman she wants out..she does not love me..no chance for reconciliation..the state she is in.. I can never see us having a reationship ever again...my daughters are going to be torn apart..This is one case where I have to say that she aint coming back.. once the sepoeration takes place...she will be riding into the sunset and most likely with her OM by her side...towing my girls with her.

reason more NOT to budge, NOT to move out. stay put, avoid her if you are certain to LB. it's SHE who wants out, it's SHE who did the wrong thing (having said that, you probably helped to create an environment which made this possible), it's SHE who doesnt want even try to solve it. Ergo, SHE should move out, if SHE wants to dissolve the family. Look, I think it's typical WS behaviour to make the BS an 'accomplice' in it, to the effect that all are equally guilty and equally happy to drift apart. Not so.

You may be wise in contacting an attorney ASAP to help you avoid her using the legal system to throw you out. Don't beleive your WW, you DO have rights and if you don't take advantage of them, then you will have nobody to blame but yourself.

she said this morning that she probably will not call her lawyer.. but I would not put it past her.. I will be talking to her as soon as possible..
Nick she is not interested in coming to MS.. if she does it will only be once..only reason will be to make me understand that it is over..
the reality here is that she is completly finished .. so angry that there is no possible way of wanting to be anywhere near me..she cant stand being near me.. says it makes her sick.. the one not eaccepting reality is me..she will be miserable if she stays and on my side she most likely will have sonmething going on with the OM.. if not someone else.. she does not love me.. wants absolutely no future..shwe wants a new start..she has no love left in her heart for me...
How can I go on knowing that she has no feelings for me..I will be like a doormat for her...It will be so ad knowing that the woman may always have someone else she would rather be with..I'll be playing secong fiddle..Trying to keep up with Plan A..but running out of mental energy..this is totally nuts..I am beginning to wonder if she is really worth fighting for.. If she SC%^^edaround on me and with my head she most likely will do it again..she is set in her ways that I treated her like garbage. but cant explain why she never came to me aside from the MC which was useles in order to discuss her concerns..I admitted thatI messed up.. she wont.. I am trying to fix me.. she has no porblems to fix...AGGGGGGGGGHHHHH

MM,
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. My wife was the EXACT SAME WAY! She couldn't even stand to be in the same room with me. But, things are starting to turn around somewhat. No, it's not all peachy and perfect. But, things are getting somewhat better. She's still with me, and now she's made yet another excuse for pushing back her date to move out. Will she actually do it? I don't know, and that's something I cannot control, so I'm not going to worry about it. You have to realize that your wife is not unique, she's just like everyone elses wife here, and you are not unique, we all felt helpless, exhausted and like we couldn't continue on. The meds will begin to help soon, but in the mean time you have to change your mental attitude.

My wife does not want to leave.. she has always wanted me to leave....yesterday she met with the mediator.. and the mediator caled me saying that I have to get registered for a program..in order to understand the breakup..WW wants to arrange seperate living arrangements..she is calling her lawyer.. I will be calling mine..if she forces a court order..she says thatshe isliving in too much stress..wonder why.. she is the one that started this mess..also wants to look at buying a second house around the corner so the girls wont have far to go between houses..last night absolutley no LBS..I am trying to keep the OM out of my mind.. although she says its over I know something is up.. she isn't denying anything when I ask her.By her wanting to buy a second house and all her LBs...this is one hopeless case that just is not going to turn around..she asked me to consider the house thing and is willing to make financial sacrifices so she can have both houses..On another note she is softening on counelling..I have asked her for a last ditch effort at MC.. she says I'll go to coucelling but not MC..and only once a month..I hope if I can get her there once..It may be a start..another weekend is here.. another chance to give her a peaceful one...any advise on my rambling would be appreciated...but again I am still confused on the OM.. will try to forget..but I Know my WW is up to something..

OM is back in her arms.. jsut starting.. she still expects me to leave.. MrsMM is making me so Pi^^ed off.. I should be telling her to get the
he%% out..I really want to give a peaceful weekend and week before she goes to her lawyer. mine is out of the country in the carribean...man I'm in trouble!! I still love this woman but all my dignity is starting to diminish.. met a rel nice woman yesterday who is a marathoner as well..looks appealing to explore but.. I know right now I should be still fighting for my marrige ..Mrs.MM is taking me for a ride.. but now its time to show the strong MM and put of those walls.. she wants me out real bad so she can start a physical relationship with the OM.. Why am I playing second fiddle...to her..I deserve better... she aint coming out of any fog. the OM is her best freind .. aren't best friend neant to be to together?? the bwoman does not love me..why try to fight a losing battle..Plan A yes.. but no matter what I do she is through with Marathonman and cannot wait to give him the boot.. she is actually excited.. OM will have her in bed and she will be so very glad..I am so stupid to think there is a chance..

marathonman,

DO NOT UNDER ANY CONDITION TO GET ANGRY AT HER .... OR EVEN TOUCH HER ....

I would avoid around her alone. I would alwyas bring a VOR on your pocket .... you know your WW is capable of lying and kicked you out !!!. I would not idle at home but not moving out too.

Angry words = abused.
One push = phyical abused.

My WW tried that on me but I was the dummiest husband and was a doormat of the year. She moved out. I ignored her and took her abusive words ... for my 2 D.

She can't kicked you out unless she has prove that you are abusive !. Do not cover her A !, blurp it out to LE (law enforcement), they will understand and tell them that you won't move out since she is the one who cheat she is welcome to go. Get VOR tape and tape all conversation or get another adult to stay with you.

-rh-

Thats the raeson why the last few days I have just tried to be the very best I can be..she is staring to look at the newspapers for apartments.guess she is starting to realize that she is the onethat has to go.. I am doing my best not to say bad words and touch her..I do hug herand try to kiss her but she says that it mkes her uncomfortable.. she feels guilty that she cannot recipricate...not sure if thats a good ir bad sign. I guess i better back off totally and let her wonder why I am not coming to her..maybe make her start to think..Plan A back on.. trying to be the best MM possible..

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess i better back off totally and let her wonder why I am not coming to her..maybe make her start to think </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do it but don't expect anything from her. She is too deep in the fog and if you expect anything positive from her, you are just letting yourself in for a big letdown.

spoke with my lawyer today.. strongly suggested that I not move out and to stay put.. she did however state that fincially its going to be a very rough road for many years..but at the same time told me to accept that if my wife has no interest in saving marriage to not beat a dead horse .. Iam just prolonging the pain. even though I will continue with paln A.. it seems that it is worthless.. also hasd a meeting with the mediator who says that she cant to anything else with us for maybe a month.. that may be an oportunity for plan A to havve some work..she also suggested that we see a councellor to try to meet closer.. maybe once I can get her in the coucellors office.. things may have a chance to turn around.. at least getting her there is a start..