Your still doing it , hoping and waiting for a sign from her that she will show you some hope . She is not going to do that YET , you have to PLAN A and not watch if she is noticing , she will notice it in the long run when you don't expect it .

Also if she does get the guts to move out and take girls you must talk to LAWYER to prevent alot of things , first to insure 50/50 and to make sure she can't move to far , you need to express this to a lawyer the she can't move more then x amount of miles away , look into the HOLE custdy thing in FULL .

DO NOT MOVE OUT , never give her the upper hand to later on say you moved by choice , no one can force you to leave if you are not abusive and your not so stay .

Stop fighting it is a fustrating circle that goes no where , belive me I know , it is a waste of precious time and your go energy .

Don't give her the power anymore to make you miserable , take the power back .

Say things like I love you enough to let you go , even though I know with work we could have a wonderful life . If she laughs , just say I wish I to could find the humor in loosing a family but I can't it is a very sad thing to be apart from some one you built a life with .

Anything but not LB 'ing , You can express your feelings but in away they are from the heart .

I know all to well about being in a relationship with someone who knows how to PUSH YOUR BUTTONS .

Just rember if you want her to see change then you need to show her she no longer can push those buttons cause you changed the things that will make you re-act to her nasty behavior .

3ISACROWD
I am really blowing the PlanA thing here.. I am so desperate at saving my M.. that I am LBing all over the place... It scares me that she is actually going to move out..either her or me by months end.. she says that I have been emotional abusive to her..and I am just trying to get things right..no harm intended..sh&t is going to hit the fan and I am going to end up with nothing.If she does move she wont go from fromthe girls school.. I know that... how do I take back the power,,.. she has already said that no matter how much I change .. the M is still over .. the ship has sailed!! </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you can express your feelings in a way they are from the heart
.. how do I do that...I am so lost and trying to win her love!!
I stop the fighting. she may stay for a while..but I know we are through.. It really is so sad to lose someone you have built a life with...it is so devastating..as for her pushingmy buttons... I'll just have to turn the other cheek...this morning she emailed me and said that she cancelled our joint visa.... she could not tell me to my face..she has already chaged bank accounts... whats next??? there really is trouble a brewing and I am going ton get it up the A$$..
I am just trying to get by.. she thinks that Iam being a baby and should accept things and act like an adult... she has no idea what pain I am going through.. will try to stay away from fights and plan A the best I can with iut her pushing my buttons...

MM,

Sorry I have been gone for so long...a little busy (if you have been watching TV, you can see all of us in the military are a little busy lately!).

3isacrowd is exactly right! Heed those words.

I want to give you an analogy here to help you. You are marathonman, so let's using running. I am your running coach, and I tell you before you start several things.
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">this race is very long (let's say 30 miles).</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are the number 2 ranked runner in the race.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The number 1 ranked runner is great, but has his flaws. His name is "YourMarriage."</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You can win this race, but you have to listen to your coach, and run YOUR race.</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That being said, "YourMarriage (YM)" is noted for taking off VERy quickly. The first half of the marathon, count on YM taking a very large and commanding lead. but YM's achilles heel is that it has no endurance. Once it reaches the half way point, it will begin to "peter out" and start slowing down.
Now, you are the number one endurance runner. If you will follow the plan and run your race, you will eventually catch YM. For awhile, YM will probably move far ahead...even to the point that you cant see YM anymore. Do not try to sprint after YM...you will not catch YM that way. YM runs its race (an affair) in its own way. You run your race. keep plugging away, even when you dont see YM ahead. even when you are only at mile 8 of 30. even once YM starts slowing down around mile 15, you may not even see YM and start catching up visually until around mile 20-25. Keep running YOUR race!

Once you see YM off in the distance, and you realize that you are catching up…don't panic…don't sprint after YM. Keep running YOUR race!

Eventually, around mile 27-28, you will begin to close on YM. YM will begin to notice that you are catching up. That what YM was doing is no longer working (the affair). That you are starting to get back in the picture. At times, YM will try to turn on the speed to pull away from you again. Don't panic. It wont last. Keep running YOUR race.

In the end, if you run YOUR race, I don't see you winning. I see you catching Your marriage as you cross the finish line. And when you do, your wife will be waiting there for both of you. If you don't run your race, you may get too tired and just quit. And your wife will be alone at that finish line, and someone else will take her eventually. Or you will make your race so very painful, more than it should. So, in the end, when you need that extra wind…that extra "kick", it wont be there to catch YM.

MM, this truly is a marathon…the hardest one you have ever run. STOP trying to run the forty! You are just now getting out of the blocks. Mile one is just passing and you are worried about mile 29. Don't worry about YM. Don't worry about the other runners (OM). Run YOUR race. Really, that's all you can do anyway. If you do, the odds are in your favor that you will end up on top in the end.

We will ride the bikes or cars next to you, trying to encourage you along. But we cannot run this race for you. Run YOUR race. Let God handle the rest.

In His arms.

MORTARMAN
Thanks for dropping by.. I really needed to hear from you...I am crying my eyes out as I read your pep talk and respond..I Know that this is a long race.. but if you read my last few posts..you cann see how discouraged I am getting..I am so very scared.
here I go point by point !
first of all as faras the OM... according to my W.. it is over..even before him .. the main issue was she does not love me...and does not want to be with me...the A.. according to her happened afterwards..now onwards!!
1. she changed bank accounts, cancelled our joint credit card
2. she is looking for an aprtment for both her and the girls.. says it is just too stressful
3. reading a book entitled the emotionally abused woman.. given to her by a sicial worker friend
4. says ship has sailed and she is not coming back
5. went to see pschologist last week who said MM get with it she does not have any love for you.. accept it
6.says no matter how great I get she is not coming back
7. nO interest in saving M
everyone one is telling me to stay.. If she moves out, she will limit custody.. and will end up paying child support..I will lose house and be bankrupt.
8. If I leave girls will think that dad deserted them and will be devastated.

MOrtarman...I know you are trying to help me...but I am out of time..I am such a wreck.. even with the ads.. maybe i am not taking enough...I love her so much but she is being so close minded.. getting more angry with me and physical contact.. not even a touch ..I am trying to be the best MM possible but then I LB badly..I only wish I could speak to you mono a mono.. so you can crack me one..she wants out so bad I know she will never come back to me... it would be such a miracle..but I know it is now impossible..The race is started three months ago and I am still in the blocks.. she is at mile 15 or further.. she does not want me to catch her.. she does not love me...she wants a new life without me..how can you think that I can change her mind? she is just so angry and tired of me..I have just been wimpering and lbing all over the place...she says that one way or another we will be in seperate places by the end of april...and her taking the girls with her...you are soooo right this is the longest marathon ever but she wont be there at the end to cross the finish libne with me... I know it.. I am just prolonging the agony... what she wants is to maybe get the OM back in her intimate life and start bew with him..although he says that it is over..who knows,,,I have stopped praying because I am ready to throw in the towel and cash in the chips...I want to believe that God wont let me down but I have not seen many signs that he is near...the only positive note I have is that my W says that the OM really called off what they had.. I am rambling now but you know what Im trying to say..
Thanks so much for being there!!!

<small>[ April 07, 2003, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: marathonman ]</small>

Okay, MM. Let's continue. You are doing well, by the way. You may not think so. But you are. Baby steps so far…but steps nonetheless.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MORTARMAN Thanks for dropping by.. I really needed to hear from you...I am crying my eyes out as I read your pep talk and respond..I Know that this is a long race.. but if you read my last few posts..you cann see how discouraged I am getting..I am so very scared. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay. No problem being scared. Courage is not the absence of fear. Hang in there…you are doing well under the circumstances.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> here I go point by point ! first of all as faras the OM... according to my W.. it is over..even before him .. the main issue was she does not love me...and does not want to be with me...the A.. according to her happened afterwards..now onwards!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My wife said these EXACT things. It may look and sound real…and to her, they are. But I assure you, it is fog talk. I thought it wasn't either. She was so serious…so determined. But she is only fooling herself. Do not let her fool you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 1. she changed bank accounts, cancelled our joint credit card</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My wife did the same thing right before she moved out. Typical stuff. Of course, 8 months later, we are re-joining our accounts together. Remember, you are talking about one battle in a large war.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 2. she is looking for an apartment for both her and the girls.. says it is just too stressful</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mine did the same. Said the same. But you know what? I have refused to give up my three kids. I took care of them by myself (with help from family and friends) for the 8 months she was gone. Didn't think I had it in me. But I did. My wife garnered a lot of respect for me because of what I did with the kids, for the most part. You do not have to let those kids go without a fight She wants to move? She wants to destroy the family? Let her do so on her own. Don't let her take the girls. Fight it Sure you are a male and the courts lean toward mothers. But if you get a good attorney and judge, they will make sure that in the best interest of the kids, they should stay in THEIR home…not move to a new one. But you will have to act first on this one. Sure it is a huge LB at first. But in the end, your wife will respect you for fighting for and caring for your girls. Remember, that is one thing you both share…the love for those two girls No OM can take away that fact.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 3. reading a book entitled the emotionally abused woman.. given to her by a sicial worker </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My wife read that too. While you may have been involved in some emotional abuse (and if you were, you need to seek help and better yourself…this is what you do in Plan A!), that book will only help solidify her determination to leave. Nothing you can do about this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 4. says ship has sailed and she is not coming back</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">They all do MM! They ALL do!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 5. went to see pschologist last week who said MM get with it she does not have any love for you.. accept it</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds like you need to be talking to a new therapist. Find someone that believes in saving marriages…not taking you money and advising you to take the easy way out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 6.says no matter how great I get she is not coming back</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fog talk..psycho babble. She is no different than my wife. Mine said the same exact things over and over. And look who was in my bed last night…and happy to be with me! Stop getting caught in the disinformation and fog of each battle Stay focused on the end result of the war.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 7. nO interest in saving M one is telling me to stay.. If she moves out, she will limit custody.. and will end up paying child support..I will lose house and be bankrupt. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How she gonna do all this? You abuse her or the kids? You have a record? Short of that…she is going to have a battle on her hands. While trying to save your marriage, you need to get your ducks in a row also. Start documenting EVERYTHING she says and does. See an attorney…have temporary custody paperwork made up and standing by. As soon as it looks like she is moving, have him serve her. Now, you'll say to me at this point "But isnt that going to piss her off? Isnt that an LB?" Yes, and yes. But, if she is leaving…it is more important to protect your kids. And besides, it isnt entirely an LB. While your wife will be upset and mad, deep down, she will have respect for you for standing up and protecting your family and loving her children (your children). At worse, I see joint custody. Plan A is NOT about being a doormat. Don't pursue divorce. But protect yourself. And protect your, and your children's rights.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 8. If I leave girls will think that dad deserted them and will be devastated. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So DON'T leave! Fight for them. Don't scream, yell or threaten. Just have your attorney draw up custody paperwork and stand by to have him serve them to your wife. Don't let wife take children around the OM. Etc. Fight for your family, for your wife's family…for your kids' family.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> MOrtarman...I know you are trying to help me...but I am out of time.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Out of time? You trying to catch a train? Out of time? Because you might not be able to force her to stop from moving out, or being with OM? Yeah, you're out of time…especially with that attitude. She senses this, and it is making her want to run faster away from you. I thought I was out of time so many times…especially after my screwups. Go back and look at my posts again. And look where we are now. Your situation is really not unique.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am such a wreck.. even with the ads.. maybe i am not taking enough... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe not. See the doc and have him check your levels…you might need a stronger dose.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I love her so much but she is being so close minded.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She is not unique. It will get worse before it gets better. Sorry to tell you that…but the short term does not look good. Focus on the long term. That is where you have your best shot. The odds are in your favor long term.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> getting more angry with me and physical contact.. not even a touch .. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not surprising. Happens with all WSs. Get used to it. I know it is hard.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am trying to be the best MM possible but then I LB badly.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So did I. Keep moving forward. You fall down? Pick yourself up and keep moving. Learn each day. It will get better.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I only wish I could speak to you mono a mono.. so you can crack me one.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Naaahhh. I wont crack you one. I understand what you are going through. But you will remain in this pain as long as you allow yourself to stay there. Once you trust the plan, and start working on YOU, then you will see progress.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> she wants out so bad I know she will never come back to me... it would be such a miracle..but I know it is now impossible.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I said the EXACT SAME THING! Look where my wife is now. Don't be drawn into the fog too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The race is started three months ago and I am still in the blocks.. she is at mile 15 or further.. she does not want me to catch her.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course she doesn't. otherwise, she would be happily sitting at home with you. But hat doesn't mean you wont catch her, and you wont pull her out of the fog. As a matter of fact, it isnt even about catching her. Just run your race…she will be there. And it isnt about pulling her out of the fog. She WILL walk out on her own. You may be there when she does…you may not. But you now have the power.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> she does not love me...she wants a new life without me.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You do not know if she loves you or not. Why? Because she doesn't know. Did she tell you this? And you BELIEVE her? Come on. I believed my wife also. She said she didn't love me anymore, that she felt she married the wrong person, blah, blah, blah. Fog talk. Psychobabble! Did she mean it? She THOUGHT she did. But wait until she is out of the fog. Then hear what she says. When she is out of the fog and then says she doesn't love you…then believe it. Until then, she is just "under the influence" and doesn't know what the hell she is doing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> how can you think that I can change her mind? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You cant. She is in the fog, and cannot hear you. Work on yourself. Once the fog runs its course, only THEN will you get the chance to change her mind. Until then, work on you and let her see the changes. So when she does come out of the fog, she will see a new MM.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> she is just so angry and tired of me..I have just been wimpering and lbing all over the place... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Who wants to hear wimpering and crying? Not very appealing. I know you have to do this…so find a male friend to do so with…or a counselor…or pastor…or even here. NOT IN FRONT OF HER! Don't cry, beg, plead, etc. Be strong. Be resolute and confident. Women love confident men. The OM is confident. Mine was too. It wasn't until I showed my confidence again that my wife again began to respect me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> she says that one way or another we will be in seperate places by the end of april... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And maybe you will be. This is not the end though, as you can see from my position. It may just be the dose of reality she may need…a slap in the face from the REAL world!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> and her taking the girls with her... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't LET her take them She wants to leave the family, then let her leave alone. You be the best Dad you can. While she will be angry at you for fighting for custody, deep down, it will begin to build respect for you within her. She will see that you are trying to be the family man she wanted. It will be an LB at first, but will sow the seeds of respect for you that will bear fruit later. No threats on taking the kids. Just speak plainly that you want your family to remain. And that you believe in the marriage and what can be. If she wants to leave, then do so. But the girls are going to stay in their home. We can work out visitation. But I want my family to stay together…all of us. And that is why I am seeking custody. Then leave it alone. She will be angry, and try to bully you into this. Stick to your ground. Steve Harley told me last year that my biggest asset was those kids in saving my marriage. And by me having custody, it was even better. By me being a great dad in front of my wife, she started to realize that she was missing out on something that the OM could not give her And my wife even admitted two weeks ago that the first reason she decided to come back was because she wanted her family back. Stick to your guns.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> you are soooo right this is the longest marathon ever but she wont be there at the end to cross the finish libne with me... I know it.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Like I knew it last June, September, October, December? Read my posts. MM, YOU DO NOT KNOW THIS! You are not unique, nor is your wife. Sure, she MIGHT not be there in the end. But if you follow the plan, the odds are in YOUR favor. Definitely not in the OM's.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am just prolonging the agony... what she wants is to maybe get the OM back in her intimate life and start bew with him..although he says that it is over..who knows,,, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe she wants to do this. Maybe she will. Who knows? She doesn't. neither do you. But it is out of your control. Take care of what YOU can. Let God handle the rest. Read Galatians 6…it is a promise from God to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have stopped praying because I am ready to throw in the towel and cash in the chips...I want to believe that God wont let me down but I have not seen many signs that he is near... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Read my last post above. You know He is near. It is just hard to see Him or hear Him. Get a book from the bookstore that has God's promises in them. Read them. He promised these things. You think He lied to you? Believe Him and believe in Him. Keep talking to Him (pray) it is through prayer that we find out His will, and helps see what He is doing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> the only positive note I have is that my W says that the OM really called off what they had.. I am rambling now but you know what Im trying to say.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, good The OM is playing around here with her. LBing her. That's good! But not enough. My wife's OM did the same things. She still pursued him. This must run its course MM. You cannot shortcut a 30 mile marathon. It has to go 30 miles! Get that in your mind, and start running your race. Get out of the blocks NOW. It is not too late. But it might be if you don't get moving

In His arms.

Mortarman:

Great metaphor! Thanks for coming back to marathonman's aid. He needs it. He will MAKE it, too!

"5. went to see pschologist last week who said MM get with it she does not have any love for you.. accept it"

Yep. Fire this idiot!

-Qfwfq

Wow! Today is my first time on this board. With all the pain I have been going through for the last two months I felt I needed some sort of help, support, comfort, whatever you want to call it. Did I ever find it. Marathonman is going through almost the identical thing I am. My wife is saying she is fed up and is leaving. She has someone else but is saying that it is over (but I know it is not because of the way she treats me). She is not thinking clearly and is ready to break up our family (I have two children 8 and 3).
Wow! We are in the same boat my friend. It may sound sick, but I actually feel better...a little.
My wife has treated me worse than any other human being has ever treated me. And why? For some 34 year old bum who lives at home with his mother and 10 year old son (we are 29).
I don't know how much longer I can take this either. I pray for God to only be merciful and not allow me to wake up the next morning. The pain is unbearable.

So, Marathonman, just know, someone is going through the exact same thing. I am convinced that there is nothing more we can do. There are no words we can say to make things better. There are no acts of kindness that can change our wive's minds. It is out of our control. The Bible says that the king's heart is in the Lord's hand and He changes it whatever way He pleases. All we can do is pray that the Lord change our wive's hearts. In the beginning, my wife was on a roller coaster. One day she would be really nice, one day she would be the devil. Now, she's just the devil. I have thoughts of moving out CONSTANTLY. But like you said, my children may think I deserted them so I will NEVER do that. NEVER!

Hang in there, my man.

Dear MarathanMan,

I am semi-retired from MBers, but I do read occasionally, especially the really long posts. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I am sorry for your pain, sorry that your wife plans on moving out. In some ways I am blessed that, although my H's affair involved him having a child by the other woman, he never wanted to leave. I have told him "thank you" for not leaving me, for chosing the hard thing--to stay and rebuild what was so badly damaged. So, I haven't been quite where you have been, but I think I have felt what your wife seems to be feeling now. Early in our marriage (before his A) our arguments were loud and scary. His anger was big and although he was never physically abusive I was afraid of him. His words cut like knives.

Before I start, at one time (pre-A) we were in marriage counseling. There was much wrong with the counselor (like proposing that since H wanted to be out of the house a lot--softball, pool, Officer's Club--you name it, if it invovled sports followed by beer and guy talk, he wanted to do it). She did however, say one thing to me privately that made a huge amount of sense to me. I was clinging and begging H to spend more time with me, threating what might happen if he didn't spend more time, etc.

Her: "Is what you are doing working?"

Me: No. It seems to be making the problem worse.

Her: So what do you do when he doesn't listen to what you are saying?

Me: I say it again and louder.

Her: Does that work?

Me: No

Her: Then why don't you try something different. Most people get stuck in certain behavioral patterns that don't work and they do exactly what you are doing--they try the same thing louder and more often.

Me: It's hard to change.

Her: So try it for awhile. If it doesn't work, you can go back to being loud, clinging and begging.

(Laughter on both sides.)

Her: You are not your behaviors. Don't be so invested in them. You can change how you react to any situation or provocation. You alone are in control of what you say and do.

MarathonMan, what you are doing is not working. What are you going to do differently? Today? Pick one thing and change it. "No LBers" from a guy who is throwing LBers around at your rate, is too big a change in one day.

How about? "The next time she provokes an argument I will say X and leave the house for X minutes." You fill in what you will say. It can be as simple as "I don't want to argue. I am going to talk a walk for 30 minutes." or it could be "I understand, I get it that our arguments, my anger, my words, have hurt you. I am sorry and I don't want to hurt you, so I am going to take a walk for 30 minutes." Don't even go to the place where you tell her how she has hurt you. Right now, you can't get through to her. So, pick out what you are going to say, practice it 20 times a day and then do it--get out of each other's faces before someone gets seriously hurt. Walk away. (My pastor asked me the day after D-day if I was going to do anything that would wind me up in jail. If so, he told me, I needed to get out of the house. As you'll see later, I didn't do anything but I wish I had gone to see my family for a week or two until the worst of my anger was over.

You have asked for some advice, I would like to concentrate on some very specific things you might do:

1. Lower your voice. Women do not want to be married to a man who screams at them--even if they are busy screaming back at him. I would bet a major problem it is your verbal LBers. Many men come across in arguments with their wives as much louder and more threatening than they think. Just simply your size, physical strength and lower speaking (yelling?) voice give you an intimidating appearance. Lower your voice. Do not yell. Break off, walk away from any and all arguments. Put a plug in the love bank. Plug the hole at the bottom that drains out any LB$ that you can put in the top. Been in the military? Remember that old phrase? "One awshyt cancels out 20 attaboys." In marriage the ratio is even less forgiving.

2. Do not initiate or ask for any physical contact. She has made a request and you seem to be ignoring it. Show her that you understand that she doesn't want you touching her. (That has got to be very, very painful, but all of us have a right not to be touched when we don't want to be. Of course it isn't abuse to hug your wife, but show her that you understand what she needs right now and give it to her. Think of it as a gift.)

You concentrate on physical affection, not meaning sexual fulfillment, as if it were her only need. She doesn't seem to feel safe right now, for whatever reason, right or wrong. Maybe that book she is reading is twisting her mind or maybe she, as a woman, perceives the world differently than you do. She has other needs, maybe these are more open to you right now.

If she won't fill out the emotional needs questionnaire, then you fill it out as if you were her. Then try to meet any of those other needs that are open to you.

3. Concentrate on your daughters. Do not snap at them, do not let your marriage problems distract you from them. They need you right now. My guess is if they are over the age of 4 they know a lot more about what is going on than you would suspect and they are really hurting. If you can't be around your wife, take them out by yourself in the early evening (with her agreement).

The quickest way to a woman's heart is to be kind to her children.

4. Find a therapist for yourself. Just getting a scrip from the doc for an anti-d is only half the battle. I suggest someone who is a strong advocate of cognitive therapy. You need to talk this out with someone. A pastor who does counseling might even be best. At the very least go to one of the online book stores and find a good book on cognitive therapy. Work the program--two or three hours a day. Get a notebook and work the program. Put youself back in control of your thoughts and your words.

5. Join a club, get a hobby, get out of the house. It is a great distraction and very appealing to our spouses to see us pursuing an interest. It is a good way to appear confident to her even if you aren't. All stay-at-home parents have to find a way to establish their own value in their own eyes. Nothing takes away your self-esteem and sense of being an interesting person as wiping up baby spit and babbling all day to little ones. Not to mention that most of our vocabulary has become very "cute" and revolves around the toilet.

You are responsible for every single word that comes out of your mouth--no matter how angry you are at the time. The trick is not talking while you are furious. Even if she is verbally abusive, even if she LBs like a maniac, refuse to engage in that behavior. Make yourself the better person.

I hope things get better for you. Many couples reconcile after a separation. Listen to MortarMan; he has good advice. What you are doing isn't working. Are you strong enough/flexible enough to stop and try something different? Even if she leaves (which you can't prevent) what do you want her last impression of living with you to be? Crying? Yelling? or some quiet self-confident reassurance that coming home would be a safe thing to do because you have yourself under control?

Oh, yes, I did have to follow my own advice. I was ape [censored] furious about his affair and a child born in the face of my infertility. We were in the middle of adopting our two boys on D-day. They had spent the summer with us on a foster/pre-adopt program and were then back in Russia waiting for us to come get them. If I left the marriage, I lost my children forever (no one allows you to adopt for 2 or 3 years following a divorce--for good reason). I had held those children, bathed them, fed them, they were mine already and their loss would have been like a death. I wanted to die, I felt trapped.

I spent the first two weeks after D-day screaming obscenities and threatening (once) to kill him in his sleep, and kill her and once (to my great shame) threatening to kill that innocent child. I am normally a good, loving and easy-going person. Kindness and forgiveness have been the cornerstones of my life. I was so out of control I threw that all away. I couldn't stand who I was becoming. I felt such great shame at my rage and the filth pouring out of my mouth. I clamped my mouth shut and never once screamed at him again even though we had a hideously long and difficult recovery with relapses of the affair (emotional, not physical). It took a very long time for them to break the habit of daily (hour long) phone calls and him providing her emotional support. Not once did I ever scream again. It would have only pushed him away instead of draw him to me which is what I wanted to do. I was where you are. Honestly, it doesn't feel like it, but it is a matter of self-control.

Peace,
MJ

<small>[ April 08, 2003, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: MaryJanes ]</small>

WOW!!!! WHERE DO I START HERE!!!
MORTARMAN!!
It is amazing how everything seemed to be the same for you.. I'll just go into a few of the major points you listed...The psychologist is suppose to be one of the best in helping get couples back together.. but she says that it takes two to want to work at it.. I have a session alone with her next week and will tell her what I want to do.. if she cant see it..I will go see someone else..
2. With her looking at apartments..if I get a tempoarary custody order she would hit the rof and challenge it.. in fact I would bet she has already got one in the works for me...My Lawyer is gone to the carribean for two weeks so I won't see her to get one..she will ytake the girls and move out. therefore she will have no reason to come back.. in canada it is going to be hard for me to get custody.. she has alearedy done up a letter to give to a judge showing the every day stuff she does to get the girls ready for school and the litle that I do.. It really makes me look bad and her look like the best thing since sliced bread..
Again back to the starting gates.. No LBS stick to my guns and try to not let her take the girls..
I am sitting down with her tonight and h=was going to tell het that I may be willing to move out... I am sure that would be a grave mistake...but it still gives the girls here home with maybe a chance down the road for Mrs. MM to se that chages in me..but you guys have gone through this,, and the advise is to stay put..
again.. I wont forget to prsy .. thaks for the words.. I'll copy of the posts and review again.

Q.. one chance at the psych.... if she does not want to help.. she gets the boot!!!!

Solon... I am not the perfect poster child for listening.. but Mortarman has been a saviour to me..DONT GIVE UP!!! TRY TO MAKE the best Solon...you can.. No LB's..Pray Pray ..
I wish the bad dream will be over as well.. but we cannot give up.. Our children need us...

NARY JANES
If there is a chance she will stay for a while,,, have to stop LBIng..your right...lower my voice,, your dont know me do you??.. I am not loud but at times can sound like a bear..I will try to be calm at all times.. evennthough the thoughts of the OM plague my mind..
I am actually doing okay on the touching thing..doing my best but it hurts not to be held.. I do have some real good team mates .. women that have been very supportive and undertanding.. a hug from one of them today got me by..and gave me back some self worth..
I have snapped at the girls but am doing my best to give them the nicest quiet dad possible...your right there.. maybe Mrs. MM will notice ..
On the hobby thing.. once my training gets into full swing.. the marathon tarining will take up a great deal of time and occupy me.. I do have goods friends there...
I know that I am responsible for ever word that comes out of my mouth.. and you are right.. learn to shut up.. when I amm angry it just wont do any good!!!
I have to show her that I am a confident person.. not only for myself but for her opinion of me being able to care for the girls while we are apart...
great advise in just shutting up!!

MORTARMAN
once again thanks for keeping your eyes on me...
my only fear is that I wont be able to stop her from taking the girls..and thatshe is really out iof the fog.. and is on her way down the road..
By moving out she will get her dose of reality ..
thanks to all of you!!

MaryJanes:

You are an inspiration!!!

Marathonman: I like the tone of your last post! You've come so far in such a short time!

All my best,
-Qfwfq

QFWFQ
Thanks I really needed that..I guess mary jane telling me to shut up is a point that drives evreything home..this is really going to be a hrd road and you know.. judging by the way Mrs. MM is talking and acting.. I dont expect her out of the FOG for some time..I will just try to make me a better MM and maybe she will notice.. The race with my marriage is on...hopefully my wife will be at the finish line..In my heart I dont expect her back but I am going to do m y best for my 2d.. because they deserve a family..
Thanks to you for checking in on me..Tonight Mrs.MM wants to discus how we are going to seperate... as above she wants one of us out by the end of the month.. I am not going to yell.. or LB.. i hope I wont... if it does happen... she may force or guilt me out of the house...I am going to stand my ground at least for now.. I also hopr this exercise is not a waste of time since if she is alraedy out of the fog and is cionvinced that she does not love me.. I have to acceept it and let her go!!.. time to get back to working on fixing MM... cheers and thanks!

MARYJANES
where do I find the emotional needs questionaire.
I hope that is not a stupid question!!
Thanks

MM,

Your thread is long but filled with 'good reading stuff'. You have good support here. That Mortarman and Mj's post are GREAT!

Now just a 'touch' of the Orchid... I want to add that you need to let her go. Holding onto her is like squeezing a spring in your hand and you are getting tired from the resistance. Know when to hold 'em, know when to throw 'em, know when to walk away. know when to run... you know the song! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Then count your blessing.

You have your daughters. They will need you in their lives right now more than ever.

Check out Redhat. He is one dad who has custody of his daughters. In CA no less. That is quite an accomplishment.

Look at your W this way. Right now she is NOT the woman you married. Not this character. Look for the one you married and if you don't see her, then don't spend time trying to turn the one in front of you back into her. She can't handle that. Her viewpoint and priorities is not the same as yours so every energy you expend will feel wasted.

Now conserve your energy (pulling back). Resolve that she is going to be with OM (cause she will anyway) and then use that time for you and children and figure out whether you really want that changed character as your W and mother of your children. You will find out your tolerance level and boundaries will help you through this crisis time.

Then let your support group (including your MC or Steve/Jennifer) help you cope.

I am not asking you to save your M. That goal is too far off. Right now you secure the safety of you and your children. Concentrate on the right stuff or you might lose your opportunity.

Focus, stay focus.... pray for a calm heart and a clear mind.

take care,
L.

ORCHID
thanks for the good point. last night major fight again.. she really wants out and I tell you there will be no way I will get custody my 2d.. I have not been abusive but she is a good talker...she know what she has to say..I have to let her go.. I am holding on to a crazy woman.. she surely is not he woman I married.. but the more I see her the more I am seeing that reconsiliation.. if that is even remotely possible, is a long way down the road..but the woman in front of me scares me... she is real evil..doing things behind my back concering our finances.ect..Like I said before I dont have much money so i cant afford any coucelling from Steve..and Mrs.MM would never go for it..I know that once we are seperated she and the other man will be going at it full blown with their affair.. its just a matter of time. while she went nuts on me last night i tried to stay as clam as I could . I think it actaully made her more angry.. but I had control.. she started to make threat like "your outof here buddy"... maybe today she will make up a story to get a court order...
none the less... you are right.. why waste my energy holding a spring...I have to look out for my 2D and be the best dad if I'm with them or not..
The sad thing about her mind sewt is that her friends and lawyer are saying she is being too kind to me and should have kicked me out long ago..Why.. because my wife said she did not love me and has had feeelings for OM for a long time and then stated an affair...and I am suppose to just deal with it! who does she think I am a machine..this is a real mess.. and it does not look good.. thanks for the tips.. I appreciate the help...
I

<small>[ April 09, 2003, 03:07 AM: Message edited by: marathonman ]</small>

marathonman

Just a note about custody. Don't take anything for granted. My W and I have three boys ages 6, 10 and 13. My W has been the primary caretaker for all of these years while working parttime. My W admitted to three affairs over the last 2+ years in which two of them were full blown SF and the third was likely only kissing. My lawyer asked the courts for a psychological custody evaluation that involved the entire family. The court ordered this testing. I figured my W would come out of this like a shining star. She is well known in the area by community and church leaders, she can talk a good talk, and she is generally out going and well liked by all that know her.

The psychologist's report did not go well for her. In fact, he recommended to the court that I get primary custody and my W get visitation rights, if, among other things, she agrees to undergo additional psychotherapy to deal with some problems she has. I was floored by the evaluation. I was viewed as the more stable and best suited parent to raise our kids.

How does this apply to your case? Well, you never know. You might talk with your lawyer about getting a psychological evaluation done to determine you and your wife's fitness to get custody of the children. If nothing else, this report gave me confidence in my parenting abilities and helped me understand a little more about why my wife did what she did.

Good luck and take care of your kids. Try to be calm around them.

HoFS

HOFENCESITTER
Good advise.. my lawyer is going on vacation inthe next few days.. I will try to contact her and either ger a temp custodu or a family evauation.. the thing that scares me about tings like that,, is I might bew taken as unfit and get nothing.. I guess it goes with the low self esteem..

marathonman:

So, work on that self-esteem!!! You can do this! (you have to anyway, so you might as well do a good job! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

Take care,
-Qfwfq

QFWFQ
The atmosphere around MM house is going to get real dense tonight.. we have to discuss our seperation..she may guilt and shame me into leaving..but I wont be going..I have to continue on biting my tongue and try not to raise my voice or do any LBing.. although I do beleive in my heart she wont be coming back..It's in the cards..as long as I can I wil try to be the best MM possible.. but there is so much hate there she will be a long time coming out of the fog.. again if she is already out.. the air is clear and she is ready to start her life with the OM..the sad thing for her is that as Mortarman stated.. the stats of anything suceeding are not in her favour,,,but again.. she loves the guy and she has been his best friend for a few years.. thats why I believe my c hances of her coming back and falling back in love with me is remote...its hard to be with someone who does not genuinely love you..it hurts right to the bone.. My only chance is to follow my most rfecent advise from mary janes and Mortarman,,, and get with it.. fix myself and shutup.. not a mean word,, try to be the best dad...she may eventually come around.. I am not banking on it.. but its worth a shot.. for the sake of the girls...
thanks for letting me vent! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

marathonman:

"The atmosphere around MM house is going to get real dense tonight.. we have to discuss our seperation..she may guilt and shame me into leaving..but I wont be going..I have to continue on biting my tongue and try not to raise my voice or do any LBing.. "

Just remember what MaryJanes said, and if you feel like you're about to LB, get up and go for a walk or something. Sure, doing that when she wants to be in control of the "proceedings" might be a LB to her point of view, but it's better than getting angry or getting drawn into an argument.

"although I do beleive in my heart she wont be coming back..It's in the cards.."

screw the cards! (I hate cards... ...RM said that a lot in emails to my W "I wanted to see you, but it wasn't in the cards"... sorry, minor trigger for ol' Qfwfq)

"but there is so much hate there she will be a long time coming out of the fog.. again if she is already out.. the air is clear and she is ready to start her life with the OM.."

Bank on THIS: she's IN THE FOG. or whatever metaphor you might want to use to describe a messed-up WS. She's there, alright. There's no possible way, no how, that she's firing on all 16 cylinders (harking back to Marmons and Cadillacs of the early 30s).

"but again.. she loves the guy and she has been his best friend for a few years.. thats why I believe my c hances of her coming back and falling back in love with me is remote..."

Hold onto your seat: My W's A started about 12 years ago, with a friend and coworker that she's known probably for about 15 years. He was pretty newly M'd when the A started. I never would have thought we'd have a chance, and I still struggle with my fears, but we're also still together, and incrementally coming to agreements about our R that we can both live with. People here will tell you I have a good chance. I hope they're right and I'm just too close to the problem to see it. I think you're too close to your problem to see the light at the end of the tunnel, too, and for exactly the same reasons I am. So, take heart in the "fact" that your chances are probably a LOT better than you think they are... ...just so long as you don't rest on your laurels (what are laurels, anyway?) and keep up the hard work!

"iMy only chance is to follow my most rfecent advise from mary janes and Mortarman,,, and get with it.. fix myself and shutup.. not a mean word,, try to be the best dad...she may eventually come around.. I am not banking on it.. but its worth a shot.. for the sake of the girls..."

And for the sake of you, and for the sake of your W. Really. Trust me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-Qfwfq

QFWFQ
Thanks.// like Mortarman , you seem to bring me back to reality..but again she said to me last night she will never come back to me..she said to me that after she told me..those five words "IDLYA"..that if she can make it too the end of the month of jan..she would live with the stress.. now its going onthe end of April and now she means it..I told her that things wont progress as fast as she wants..now she is saying the end of May at the lastest..what's up with that??? I was very proud of myself.. didn't LB very much but . I have to forget about the OM... the F^&ker is always on my mind..and it scares me that if my wife eevr comes back she will always have feelings for him and she will always be around him..
as for the cards.. you would have to see the way my WW is talking and acting.. it is in her face..
she says that the main raeson why she wants to leave so bad.. is that she cant stand to be around me..she means it!! how can this be FOG!!
it all seems so clear..
You mentioned that your W Affair started 12 years ago.. are you still with her?.. did you seperate.?...Is she still seeing the OM?..
I sure hope there is light at the end of the tunnel.. beacuse I am starting to run out of Gas and I'm scared of the dark... just a joke..seemed like something funny to throw in..
I have to continue to try to make myself a better MM.. if she does not come out of the fog.. I'll be a better person. what a hard battle this is turning into,,very painful..
not sure what laurels are myself... thanks for dropping in to check on me..maybe Mrs.MM wil open herf eyes soon and see a brand new MM..and wonder what she ever did..
I hope your right since things have not beeen good between us for a few years.. thats wht I think the chance of my marriage ever surviving and becoming a wonderful one.. is next to slim...
and the chances of an amzing relationshp between two best freiends..WW and OM.. becoming more apparent.. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />