up, so TM94 can find this thread as I am asking for his help.

Oh but dazed blonde,

He figures that we could actually live as threesome with kids and everything. He is not trying to bring the OW into our relationship, but his hope is that we both find someone on equal terms that is willing to get her needs fulfilled by 2 people as well.

Do I have a problem with that. I do not know! But it would mean that a life like that would have to be open and that everybody including kids, family and friends will know. My H is saying he is willing to spring out of the closet and tell the world this is how he sees his life as a fulfilling one.

I am saying I fulfilled a fantasy, that I do have an interest for women too and there are some things my H simply cannot offer me. But to actually live out a life like that in reality?

Erm...that is why I am confused.

I am not willing to jump from one situation (him having an A) to another, us having a woman in our lives, without first settling the first situation and recovering from that.

But, we have already agreed to meet with the woman in London again the 2nd of May, which I am excited about. Am I doing this because I am vulnerable and need to have other emotional needs met and I can see that she can give that to me, because she is really interested in me (more than in my H). So am I opening myself up to fall in love and the downside of that is that I will kick my H out, because I do not want to share????

Because deep down I believe that I am not the type that can share....

comments?

-queen-

Queen-

I sent an email to TM. I let him know that he was needed. I know that he takes time off from the boards so hopefully he will check his mail...

sorry to butt in, but I agree that he can give you perspective on things better than most.

ok-just finished reading all these posts-Queen of
BrokenHeart, you absolutely need to read my posts
under General QuestionsII "unbelievable story"I
changed my password (was originally stacyseman)anyway, I lived through (barely)a "threesome"situation/arrangement for several months, the OMM I had an A with kept telling me and his W "I"m in love with 2 women" sound familiar? Yes-he had his cake and all that goes with it for several months-he almost had his W convinced to "just let her/(me) into our lives",
after 3-4 sexual encounters at hotels and one "out
of town (Las Vegas)with the 3 of us.I have so much
more to share with this escapade,it's almost too
much typing and mentally exhausting-I need to tell you how our whole situation played out.Read my posts, if interested, will add more later.

Queenof,

I guess I'm gonna come right out and tell ya...I'm not buying what you are selling...

know that it comes from me...not out of judgement of specifics...but out of fear and concern that you are at a point of doing harm to yourself....on many many levels....AND that sometimes one must step back and take a look at the bigger picture and what our actions really say about ourselves...

So here goes...

You are taking a path that is so filled with inconsistancy, conflict, and poor judgement...that it is very concerning to me....

When faced with a crisis in our life so personal so damaging and so painful...we must take great great care to decrease the chaos decrease the conflict and avoid actions that add to the pain...

You have taken a detour off the recovery highway my friend...

First and formost I have no interest in the fact that you have inlvolved another woman in this issue...but great concerns in the fact that you have involved another human being....

All of us as you know have feelings, emotions and hold great meaning in the universe...we are each special....

There is nothing more fullfilling than celebrating those things with people in our lives...
but the only way...the only way...to have true depth and meaning to celebrating a whole person and their relationship is to base it on REAL honesty, REAL caring, and REAL ability to truly nuture, NOT just the sexual side of ourselves and others...

When we blur the lines of sexuality by ommitting or not having the depth of commitment and nurturing....then we only have a shadow of a truly meaningful relationship...and one that is grossly disrepectful to all parties involved...
we are choosing to deny the importance of inherant values...for the sake of our glossing over feel good taker status...

God has given us humans this great gift of sexuality...that is to be truly celebrated and fully experienced in a way that touches our soul...and choosing paths that lead us away from that deeper experience leaves great holes and empty places within

It is extremely disrepectful for you to engage in sexually with anyone else at this time in your life...period.

1. you are married
2. there is great disrepect that in the name of wanting to experience fantasys with others than your spouse...that it dismisses the importance of the third party you bring into this scene...by denying their value as a whole person...and seeing them only as a ways or means of fullfilling YOUR fantasy...EVEN when the third person is consenting and wants to be with you....Onus of responsibility still lies with "you" as it does with all of us...to seek greater value in them as a whole person....

It is no different that onus of responsibility with a WS/OP who even under the whole fog of emotions and sexual tensions STILL are accountable for taking that last step that send them into infidelity....

Also it is logic and truth that our actions define us as who we are and what we believe in and value....

YOu are actively blurring lines that totally derail any attempts of resolution with your husband....and even if resolution is no longer something you desire....you can not make unacceptable behavior and values...suddenly acceptable...

unaceptable behaviors in a marriage (because without these things there really is no marriage)
sould not be made acceptable on feelings and desires...

I am so concerned about this for YOU because of your state of mind...
So very very often infidelity brings people to the point of believing and accepting things that are irrationale to be rationale...because of the fragile states we are in...
And your are coming to point of extreme acceptance...that I am not sure you would be in if it weren't for your husbands actions in the first place...huge huge red flags are everywhere...

And you inconsistant thoughts are all over your posts...

You can't accept an OW in your husbands life...yet can accept an OP in yours....

You are starting to believe that actions of yours and his as long as decided together are OK as if two people in a fog...you and him...are even capable of making good decisions...
If your decision to have OP in your life is a good one...then logically so must his be...
(see the dichotomy)

I don't agree with swinging (OP) multiple partners within the realms of marital vows...because it is in direct conflict of the vow...and to me vows hold great meaning...in the scope of my marriage and of others....and none of us can have it both ways...either they hold great meaning or they don't....

It is very alarming to me your husbands driving force to already be talking and thinking out loud on how to 'make it work" when you are in such a vulnerable state....

My Plan A is pretty calculative, but it has to be. All Plan A´s are that. Mine is different in the sense that if I can be a better me and my H sees that, respects that and believes we have something in common, we can talk about trying to salvage our M. OR If he does not see that and respect it and want to salvage it, I know it was never meant to be anyway! Then the love & commitment was never there from his behalf anyway.

This where is isn't going to work....you are taking a path that is in direct conflict of commitment...
seriously look at your own actions for they show little value for commitment and respect...respect for self, him, and the others you involve.

When we expect certain behaviors from others...it has no meaning if we ourselves don't value and live up to the expectations ourselves...

One spouse can not expect honesty in a relationship if they believe it is OK for themselves to be dishonest....(an example)

He will make the choice not me. Because he needs just for once in his life to take the responsibility of his actions.

Again you still have the responsibility regardless of his actions of your own actions...can't have it both way...your actions are just as blurring and irresponsible to your marital vows as his are....

Queenof please for your own sanity, emotional health and healing...don't actively muddy the waters....
seek less chaos and confusion...work on the marriage problems first...this is no time to be making huge life altering decisions and actions...

Focus on you ALONE....
model behavior that has meaning....

know I am gravely concerned about YOU....
ARK

bump ^^ because I am concerned^^

ark

Queen,
I'm sorry I haven't responded sooner, but I've been out of the loop for the past 2 weeks. I don't have much time to respond right now, but I want you to know that I've read all your posts, and everyone's replies. I have several points I would like to make, and share some of my own experiences as well and give you an idea of what you are getting yourself into.

Queen, I would like to say this. Yes, you are in a fog as well. Your life has been shattered, and like me your spouse has thrown you into a tailspin. So, you are expanding your horizons and trying new things. Very similar to a mid-life crisis. Try and step back, analyze your situation and actions. Ask yourself why you are doing these things, why your husband is doing the things he's doing, and would you want your parents, grand parents, children, etc. to know what you were doing. Would they approve?

I promise I will be back and try to help you shed some light on some things. There are so many similarities between your situation and mine, between you and my wife, between your husband and me that it's rather erie. I know you see that a lot here, maybe that's what makes this such a good place to be. Stay strong and try to calm down a little.

<small>[ April 21, 2003, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: TM94 ]</small>

Thank you all for your concern for me and especially to ARK, for your response, which got me to stop and think. TM94, I really look forward to hearing from you and claire I will look into your thread soon.

I took off to my friends and family abraod in the Easter and left my H to take care of our home and kids. OW has in the meantime told her own H that she wants a divorce, wíthout telling him that it is because she is in love with my H.

My H has been keeping himself busy, building fences, bike shed, hanging up pictures, buying bunny rabbits for kids, shopping and cooking delicious food etc...being the PERFECT father and house hubby. I came home Easter Sunday, (my birthday) and he had made everything picture perfect with food, presents, attention, love and affection. Like none of this nightmare ever happened....

We talked and he said that he had really been missing me and that he really loved me. But we had to talk because he hasn´t called it quits with OW yet, though he sees that this is the road he most probably has to take.

He said his fear was that the "exciting" and passionate woman I have changed into all of a sudden, would suddenly dissappear. Because he really loved to see that "sparkle" and playfullness in my eyes and wanted to be a part of it. But is it all just an illusion? That he was so afraid that we would both drift back into a state of numbness, and yet again continue something unfulfilling, draining and unhappy.

My only answer to that was and still is , is that I deny to live my life a day longer being in that state of mind, because I was dying as a person inside.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> YOu are actively blurring lines that totally derail any attempts of resolution with your husband....and even if resolution is no longer something you desire....you can not make unacceptable behavior and values...suddenly acceptable...unaceptable behaviors in a marriage (because without these things there really is no marriage)sould not be made acceptable on feelings and desires... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right. I am blurring lines and have set course into a direction that is not dealing with the issues of our marriage, but further confusing the situation and creating chaos. I can see that and I can feel that, because I stop once in a while and ask myself ; "Why am I doing this?"

The answer is horribly selfish. My H has been selfish, not adressing the issues of our marriage and allowed himself to get emotionally and sexually involved with another woman. The shock of finding out about the affair "woke" me up from my years long hybernation and I started looking into myself and saw myself as someone else than what I thought I was. I´ve been living a life that I have created because it looked right, not because it felt right.

When I say the answer is horribly selfish,, is because I saw some of those unfulfilled desires in me and told my H that this is something I want to try with him, because I still love him, because in certain situations he still makes me feel safe and I know that this is one of the things I could share with him and nobody else. He would help me fulfill that desire. You say this is unacceptable behaviour. But is it really so unacceptable when it is something everyone agrees to? None of us felt used afterwards, the situation was a lucky one because the girl we found had a heart like ours. We all had the capability of respecting and showing extreme amounts of tenderness to each other in the situation.

When she left, because she had to but did not want to, I felt like there was a soul, a human being that I was missing and that we connected on a level that was not to be expected.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And your are coming to point of extreme acceptance...that I am not sure you would be in if it weren't for your husbands actions in the first place...huge huge red flags are everywhere... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now, I know that I am in an extremely, explosively vulnerable situation right now. And it terrifies me that I have taken this all so unbelievably calmly. Everybody that knows me can´t believe how calm I am, which makes me want to post red flags up all over myself, because I am afraid of myself.

I also know that continuing a threesome situation is not the answer. It just creates more chaos and confusion. That we need to work out our issues first. But how do we work on our issues when

1) OW is still in picture, though "quietly" on her way out (My H showed first withdrawal symptoms yesterday, which I handled really badly, though I was trying to make the environment safe for him to talk about the sadness and pain of letting go of his love and care for her..but blew it...I could not handle the fact that he said she would always have a place in his heart)

2) I want to see girl in london again to talk (nothing more) and share my thoughts and feelings as I can see that she also is a soul who is lost and in pain. Maybe we could help each other? But my H wants to see her to see whether we can recreate the magic and further build on it by taking it to both an emotional and physical level as a threesom, which makes me feel like "he wants to get involved with someone else, but doesn´t want to solve these issues with me" because it is too tough to face the pain he has caused me or we have caused each other over the years by neglecting one another. Is this his escape to get over OW or is this just an escape from everything?

I really feel like I have no control over anything and that I should just sit back and do nothing. But that is exactly what I have been doing for years. This situation is scary but also a great relief because somehow it feels like things are moving forward. But is that just an illusion and things are actually just getting worse? Maybe I am just stupified by the fact that something is finally happening in my life that like you all said, I´m in fog too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And you inconsistant thoughts are all over your posts... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly. Inconsistent. But that is because I am searching...Isn´t the voyage of life full of inconsistencies, because things always change and one has to adapt to those changes, in order to live it.

Like Socrates said; An unexamined life is not worth living.

And this is selfexamination and examination of others.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">there is great disrepect that in the name of wanting to experience fantasys with others than your spouse...that it dismisses the importance of the third party you bring into this scene...by denying their value as a whole person...and seeing them only as a ways or means of fullfilling YOUR fantasy...EVEN when the third person is consenting and wants to be with you....Onus of responsibility still lies with "you" as it does with all of us...to seek greater value in them as a whole person.... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do value the essence of every human being I feel connected to. She (in London) did not feel like I/we denied her value, quite the contrary. This is also why I feel like I have unfinished issues with her, needing to talk, because there was a connection and there was also a meaning to why we met.

Do you believe in fate? Or being carried by higher forces? I do. There is a deeper meaning to this that I cannot see or feel.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, you are in a fog as well. Your life has been shattered, and like me your spouse has thrown you into a tailspin. So, you are expanding your horizons and trying new things. Very similar to a mid-life crisis. Try and step back, analyze your situation and actions </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am trying really hard to step back and analyze the situation. And I can also see that I am acting like I am in a mid-life crisis. Just thought I was still too young <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> to be in that

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There are so many similarities between your situation and mine, between you and my wife, between your husband and me that it's rather erie. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please Please Please, Enlighten me!

-queen-

qobh,

I still beleive that you are following paths that are far from bringing about a honest and stable reconcilliation...and with your children involved you MUST keep that as your goal and work steadfastly on the creation of a stable marriage....the path you have choses invites potenitially more chaos and pain...as well as being based on spoken or unspoken threats and a foundation of continued infidelity and doors wide open for continued dishonestly

I also believe that you are not thinking all of this clearly as emotional attachment to the third party is their, blurring rational thinking and reeks of fog speech... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Lets take this down to a very basic level..remembering that actions define us...

Your husband taking actions to rid his life of the OW would speak volumes to you about his seriousness of commitment to healing...correct?? Well the same goes for you...

OW is still in picture, though "quietly" on her way out (My H showed first withdrawal symptoms yesterday, which I handled really badly, though I was trying to make the environment safe for him to talk about the sadness and pain of letting go of his love and care for her..but blew it...I could not handle the fact that he said she would always have a place in his heart)

But yet queenof...you are actively pursuing and taking steps that invite a third party into YOUR life and heart...You are the same as him no matter what higher level you attempt to place it on...What you are doing is the same...he will string you and his OW along in excuse after excuse...needs to let her go his way...need to break things off his way...needs to see her, talk to her because of this or that...you verbalize great pain and intolerance of this fact...yet seek out your own OP and attempt to gloss over the reasons.... I want to see girl in london again to talk (nothing more) and share my thoughts and feelings as I can see that she also is a soul who is lost and in pain
This is also why I feel like I have unfinished issues with her, needing to talk, because there was a connection and there was also a meaning to why we met.

YOU said those things and yet they sound like something your husband would say...those same words hurt coming from your husband..yet somehow make sense when you say them...

these are the things that doom reconcilliation because you can't have it both ways...none of us can

This is the exact type of bull that a WS will feed the BS over and over again...in attempts to justify, rationalize, and continue bad hurtful choices...

All ready your actions of infidelity have brought potential pain and definately confusion to all involved...continue on this path and it will get worse...

True intimacy, excitement and passion that makes your soul rejoice can and does exist between two people...it starts on a bases of trust commitment, ability to forgive and be forgiven, good communication without fear of rejection...all of the things it takes you two are just bypassing...and in some ways taking this superficial easy if it feels good way out...
Why the need for a third party??
What are you avoiding or denying??
I mean I don't even think you are in a position to trust your husband right now...and yet you skip that part of needing to trust him...(and I mean trust on a deep level of he won't hurt you...because we know he has, he can and he will)...and bring in this third person...

I think about this poor third person..being drawn in sexually and emotionally to this couple that at this point are the definition of disfunctional...and to ME that is where you cause potentially harm and pain to that person...
why are you involving them in this mess you are in right now...

what is your plan when he takes OW to be with this third person you are becoming connected with...by your own actions he has permission to continue to dishonor vows...jesus queen of...how will you now handle his and HER betrayel of you....

see the slippery slope...(here we say "slippy slope" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

YOUR husband can now use your own actions against you on stances you take on needs in your marriage...

the need for faithfullness
the need for staying emotionally your husband...and physically another persons sexual encounter...(way blurred for you right now)
the need for clear boundaries...drop the OW...(OW bad...)..keep the OP...(OP good)..how does that even make sense...
and don't even attempt to place or question his own take on marriage vows...as you don't believe in them anyways...

I know I am being tough on you...but it's like watching a train wreck on some levels....
stop and focus on you...

really feel like I have no control over anything and that I should just sit back and do nothing. But that is exactly what I have been doing for years.

YOu have loads of control you need to take..

you have control over not seeking out any third party to your marriage....
no contact for YOU
you have control over what is acceptable in your world and making changes that rid your world of unacceptable things...
you have control over realizing that you can't change anyone but you...
You start by NOT going to see this third party...and if that feels emotionally uncomfortable then that is all the proof you need to know that you are playing with fire...that other people mean more...remember that originally this was to be a sexual encounter for you and your husband...already there sure is a lot focus on that "sexual encounter"...because th reality is that there is no such thing...that is why I find your behavior disrepectful...you went into this believing it was just for you and him....and already emotions are out of hand...

Because of the amazing experience we countered in London, my H is now 100% certain that he has the capacity to love and care for two women.

He isn't capable of loving and caring for one person his wife...where is this coming from....

way way to long..sorry
queen of none of this is out of malice...

ARK

Queen,
I don't know how much help I will be, but I can relate my experiences and let you know what they have done to my marriage and me personally. VERY Brief background: My wife and I agreed several years ago that we would both be interested in trying a 3some (bringing fantasy to reality). We both enjoyed it and found it unbelievably exciting. During this time we tried other things, and I guess you could say we were labled as "swingers". Approx. 4 months ago my wife fell in love with a partner, and told me she wanted a divorce; she was unhappy with our relationship and the situations we had created.

Now, the similarities between you and I. I was in the military for nearly 10 years, during that time my wife too followed me around and stood in the shadows while I shined in the spotlight. Like your husband I put my work first, and neglected my family. Like you my wife accepted this as "her role" in the family. My wife also had experiences with another female at a young age, and has never really lost that desire. We also brought fantasy into reality.

When I realized that my priorities were not where they should be (family first) I left the military and concentrated on building a better family. My wife began changing, what most psychologist's would classify as a mid-life crisis, even though she's only 27. She began to explore and do things like there would be no tomorrow. Many of things were not bad in and of themselves, but the totality of everything led to disasterous consiquences.

I have much more to say, but what I want to concentrate on now is the fantasy and 3some aspects. Fantasies are good, and even better when shared openly between a husband and wife. However, I have learned the hard way that to bring a fantasy to life results in jelousy, unfaithfulness, lack of trust, bitterness, worthlessness and destruction. Maybe not today or next week, it took us several years before we both realized that what we thought was pleasing the other person was in fact killing them off (as well as ourselves) slowly.

I know right now you are a willing participant in this situation, however what you have to realize is that right now you are not in your right mind. You are in just as much of a fog as your husband is. What I have seen and experienced is that while you think you are all right with this, and this is what you want, you may actually be convincing yourself of this because you believe this is what your husband wants. As I said before, this may take several years to surface as it did with us.

There are many people out there who live this lifestyle and are ok with it. But, most of those people do not have a real relationship with their spouses. They have a companion that they share like a material thing. They don't cherish their spouse the way that a spouse is supposed to be and deserved to be cherished. I hope I'm not lecturing here, but I thought my wife and I had the perfect marriage; one that could withstand anything. I am now learning that we did/do not and our actions over the past few years have eroded our foundation even further.

My suggestion would be for you to work on your Plan A right now. Don't worry about how long it takes, you will know when it is time for Plan B, and if your not sure then it would be my guess that you are not ready for it. You can do a good Plan A for a long time, much longer than you think you can. In your Plan A try to be calm and receptive toward your husbands thoughts, feelings and emotions. It is critical in the beginning to take in everything he says, and blow up later by yourself. I made the mistake of saying what I was thinking and feeling and now my wife refuses to talk to me about the OM. Also, don't say anything bad about the OW, he will more than likely come to her defense and this will drive him further away from you. The withdrawl will be hard for both of you, but just try to be his friend and be there for him in whatever way he will allow you to be.

I would suggest cancelling your upcoming trip to London. Everyone is different as I've said, and some people can live this lifestyle. But, in the state your marriage is in right now I feel that this would be adding fuel to an already dangerous fire. You can still regain that excitement and fire by discussing the encounter in detail and reliving it in your mind.

I hope this has helped some, I know it has been long, and there is much more I have to say. But I will leave it as is for now. Please let me know if you have any questions, or if I can help in any way.

agree with ark-TRAIN WRECK!!! I've lived it-again
read my thread under general questionsII "unbelievable story"4/14 last reply.
I was the OW (I'm still married)in the 3-some situation-the OMM manipulated his W into thinking
it was her decision if she wants it--what a joke-
he had already planned the whole thing-another manipulation "Well, I love her he says to his W-do you want me to go behind your back?"as we were
already 4 months into an A.Huge fog going on in QueenofBh"s house--How are your kids thru all of this?

Hi Ark and TM,

Thank you so much for your amazing input. I have just read what you have both wrote and printed it, taking it home and going to sit and digest your words. I can see that I have got a lot to think about and it is really frightening to face the outcome of all of this.

I know that I am going to try to stick to Plan A for a while, but I am also seeing the inevitable of the Plan B, because I am sitting on a merry go round and I cannot see clearly of what it is that is happening to me right now.

ARK, you are not being tough on me, your words are kind, strong and wise. TM, I can see that you can understand why and how...

I will post a reply soon, but this is tough material you have given me to work with and I need to work with it.

Until then all I can say is THANK YOU!

-queen-

And Claire,

Thanks for your reply too. I´m in the middle of reading your thread and have to say that it really is an unbelievable story...

Back to my children. I am protecting them like a lion protects its cubs. They know nothing and get to live their lives without concern of bigger issues going on here, until things are clear.

I am not niave to think that they cannot feel that comething is wrong a nd therefore have talked to them telling them that their mummy is sad and upset with their father at present point because we have a disagreement on how much he is travelling on business at the moment. That Mummy misses daddy and wishes he was more here for the family, but because of his business he feels that he cannot.

Guess what my wonderful 10yr old son said?

"Mummy, don´t worry, I am growing up fast. When I get a little bit older I can work for daddy and I will do all the travelling so daddy can be home more often!"

Doesn´t that just prove the point that children will do anything to keep their parents happy together? I gave him a big hug and said that he was a big boy and a very kind person to want to help in such a way.

So, my darling children, at least they are fine. (I pray and hope...)

-queen-

Queen,
Kids are great aren't they? How are you doing? Any progress or questions? We're here for you to lean on, sometimes it's so much better to type here instead of blowing up at your spouse, or holding it in and killing yourself off slowly.