You good people are right on the money. Called C and he advised to allow WW to come to house on Mother's Day and confront her at that time with phone statement, but not to invite her to come back for now. Then I called OMW and talked to her for nearly an hour. In our first conversation I did not ask her for any info she had on A, instead telling her what I knew. It turns out OM has told her that A began 11/02 (WW had told me late 1/03). That OM and WW had met in a bar in Florida where each was on vacation and began PA the next night (WW said she had known OM for years through her job). Many other details I did not know that put a whole new face on A.
Most importantly OMW said that OM had come home early on 4/29 to tell her that he was absolutely done with WW. That he had spent hours on the phone over the previous days trying to convince WW to leave him alone but she had been obsessive to the point of being frightening, wanting to confront his W face to face, even asking him to send money so that she could fly to see him. OMW has a letter that WW had sent to his office this week and he had given it to her unopened to either read or send back as she wished (she still had not opened it). She also told me that OM had agreed to answer any question that she might have about A and said that if there was anything I wanted to know she would ask him. That he had booked a two week vacation to Scotland leaving next week, and that she would see to it that OM composed and sent a NC letter (my suggestion) to WW before they leave. It was over and OM had promised to do whatever it takes to save his marriage.
Since WW phone statement only shows calls through the end on the month (4/30/03) and the last call from WW to OM's cell phone shows 4/29 I have no idea weather or not there has been any contact after that day. But OMW certainly sounded sincere.
Sunday I will show WW the phone statement and then LISTEN to whatever she has to say.

VERY sad update. WW called older D and D mentioned phone statement. WW went crazy, yelling we had no right to download statement and pry into her life. WW said that she and OM had made several long calls to each other between 4/23 and 4/29 to "iron out details" and that A had ended for certain 4/29. WW told D that she was still in love with OM but that he had decided to try restoring his M and would never see or contact her again, and she would let it be over. WW then told D that she would never move back into our home with us, did not want to be married to me any longer, and was contacting her attourney. She wants to be on her own, making her own mistakes and answering to no one. She refused to talk to me at all.
This morning (Mother's Day) OMW called me with more questions, and I told her that my WW had said that the A was indeed over. She said OM had already left for Scotland (it seems it was a golfing trip with no wives) and though he swore that he had ended all contact had not written NC letter, and that instead of recovery she was considering filing for divorce. I asked her not to rush any decision until she had given herself more time, and to call me if she needed support. I agreed that tomorrow I will send her copies of the phone statements that she has asked for, and am also sending her my copy of SAA.
Then WW called and said her attourney wanted me to have seperation papers to her by the end of this week or they would file for divorce. It looks as if A, even though it is now over, may bring about the end of two long (23 and 33 yr) marriages. What a disaster.
MB, what should I do now? I definitely have to get her the seperation papers, hoping to at least keep the house in my name for my Ds and I. D and I are now going together to C. I still feel love for my now FWW but it is starting to fade quickly, and I have not seen her for two weeks and her depression, anxiety and anger are high. I feel that she will not be coming back home anytime soon, if ever. Now that I am certain that the A is over should I continue a solid Plan A even under these circumstances or is it time to Plan B or NC? Or is there something else that might allow me to yet save my marriage? Can anyone please give advice on where to go from here?

I'm certainly not one of the experts here but I feel for you.

I think you can't be sure that the A is over based on my experience. It will be a long rollercoaster ride for you. You just have to wait it out. Don't give up!! I would continue to do PLAN A if I were you. Your WW continues to be in the fog, in the A addiction. Even if the A is over, withdrawal continues for at least 3 weeks according to the Harleys.

Wait for advice from the Sr. MBs.

Take care.

Haven't posted in nearly two weeks, hoping I could clarify some things before coming back to the board. Have spoken to OMW several times since last update and think I now have a much better picture of where we stand.

OM and WW have not seen each other since 4/13/03.

OM last spoke to WW on 5/11/03 to say that he could no longer have any contact with her, period, and has been out of the country since. WW moved out of female friends apartment and back home to mother's house that night.

5/12/03 I gave WW seperation papers, which she said she was taking to her attourney the next day. Have heard nothing on the matter since, but still expect I will.

WW called two days later to say that she had changed her cell phone number.

Since I gave her the papers I have been trying to avoid calling her but trying to Plan A whenever the opportunity presents itself. Last night was interesting. I had to go out of town on business and asked WW to stay at the house with youngest D. She spent the night at our house, sleeping in our bed, for the first time in almost three months. D said when WW got there she checked the answering machine and, as luck would have it, OMW had left a message asking me to call. WW played it twice and then erased it. Then, when WW left this morning she took a stuffed bear that sat on a chair in our bedroom. I'd had the forsight to actually spray it with my cologne before I left yesterday! And what had I left laying on the table beside our bed? SAA!
Today was my D's birthday so when I got back into town I stopped by WW's office and gave her a single red rose, a tradition I started years ago. Though I didn't get my usual hug today, WW said that she will see me again tomorrow because she and her mother are going to take both Ds (older D will be home from college for weekend) out to dinner. I didn't asked to go, she didn't offer.
Again, it appears that the A may well be over, but I have not seen any move on my WW part toward coming home or working on our M. So my Ds and I will continue to go to counciling, and I will try to be patient and have hope. As always, any advice or suggestions would be appreciated.

May have made a mistake, hoping for some input. My WW and two friends go on a short vacation to Florida each year and that is where, this year, she met OM and the A began. I recently told her friends' Hs when and where the A began, though I have no details of what exactly happened there. I did not in any way accuse their Ws of "aiding and abetting" my WW or of any misbehavior. Of course both men confronted their Ws, asking just what goes on each year in Florida. Though I would have to suspect that both Ws knew what was going on, both swore that they did not. And of course their Ws told my WW, who called and was highly pi**ed that I had told the two Hs. WW says that I told just to cause her trouble and to try to ruin her friendships. She now seems to believe that everything I do or say is designed to hurt her or make her angry. Both Hs already knew about A, so should I have told them about what happened with my WW?
Meanwhile, thought WW is trying very hard to spend time with Ds whenever they will allow it she is making no contact with me. She is still living with her mother, and is still contributing financially. It has been nearly three weeks since I gave her the seperation papers and she has not mentioned them since. But she does not seem to have any desire to come home or work on our M. Does Plan A still seem the way to go for now? Should I try sending a card or letter? I could use some replies and advice.

23:

I think plan A when you can is the way 2 go, still. It's going 2 take your W a long time 2 come out of her fog, but I think it's a good sign that she's contributing financially 2 your family. Give her the time 2 figure out her way back.

I think you're doing well.
-2long.

23,

I agree with 2Long keep up the plan A. I think actions speak louder than words. She hasn't done anything with the separation papers. While she is mad that you told her friends H's, I think she knows who really messed up.

My bet is you will eventually have to do to Plan B. You should be making plans along those lines now, so that when your LB starts to get low you can move into it. Remember if you wait until you don't feel much if any love for your W, you won't be in a position to work on recovery.

However, for now Plan A seems alright with you. It sounds as if your D's have their head screwed on straight and that is very good. I am sure they are disappointed in their Mom, but still love her. They are in a hard place so make sure that you pay special attention to them both.

As for your W, time and patience are the watch words 23. Hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

Thanx, 2 & JL.
My daughters have been GREAT through this whole thing so far. But they are still very hurt, angry, and even ashamed of their mother. I have them in FC and we are working on forgiving.
I agree that for now Plan A is the way to go, though it is hard to meet ENs when WW is not at home and has so little contact with me.
I have also decided that I will stick with Plan A until WW decides on the seperation papers. I have not signed them yet, and I hope to be able to delay for a while if she returns them. I am thinking that if WW were to sign and return the papers that I could use this time to go to Plan B if I must.
However I have some concern with the Plan A/Plan B scenario in this situation. I understand how effective it can be when trying to push the WS into ending an A. But in my case I am all but certain that the A is over. WW will not be choosing between me and OM, she will be choosing weather or not to return to our M. My goal now is to get her to work on our R and to move from her mother's place back to our home. If some type of no contact situation is needed to this to happen then I am willing. So I am in the process of beginning a new Plan B letter, which I will post here, and could certainly use any suggestions on what it should and should not include. Though I suppose that the A should not be ignored, I am thinking that I do not want A or the OM to be the focus of the letter. MBs, what do I say to help WW get past the hurt, anger, pride, etc. and give our M a chance?

Needing some thoughts on what I should be doing now. Really starting to worry. For those of you who don't want to read the thread here is an overview.
2/16/03 - D-day (Now know PA started 11/02 on Florida vacation).
2/28/03 - WW moves in with mother.
3/20/03 - WW moves into apartment with female friend.
4/13/03 - Last physical contact between WW and OM (OM lives 500 miles away).
4/19/03 - Older D calls OMW, reveals A.
4/20/03 - OMW calls me looking for info. We have been in phone contact since. Both carefully watching our S.
5/11/03 - OM calls WW, ends affair. NC since. WW moves out of apartment and back in with mother.
5/12/03 - I give WW seperation papers.
Positives: WW has had seperation papers nearly six weeks, has not mentioned or returned them. WW continues to deposit money into joint checking account every payday. WW talks to both Ds every day, younger D is working at WW place of employment all summer.
Negatives: WW is basically having NC with me, has asked me not to call unless it concerns Ds.

I have been doing a good, solid Plan A for four months. Occasionally sending "thinking of you" cards, etc. Going to IC, also FC with Ds; WW refuses to go. Taking good care of Ds, house, and myself.
My younger D came home with two pieces of info today. First, WW has switched her health insurance from my employer to hers (as required in the seperation papers). Second, she is going "out of town" next weekend with her two friends, the two who went to Florida with her (see above).
So, I could really use some help with several questions. I want to avoid any LBs and mistakes.
1. Should I ask WW about the seperation papers?
2. Should I call OMW and let her know that WW is leaving next weekend?
3. I am still not sure if Plan A/B is correct in this situation, since the A may be over. I have been working on a type of Plan B letter. Should I continue doing what I have been, switch to Plan B, or something different?
Please, MBs, I (and my IC) feel that I am at a crucial point. What should I be doing now?
__________

BS:48, WW:45 OM:57
Married 23 years, together 30 years
Two Ds, 17 and 20, now home with me

23down consider following some of the tips in Michelle Weiner Davis's 180 degree list:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow him around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing.
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him someone she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic.
23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes her feelings stronger).
24. Be patient.
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than anywords you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.

Hi 23,

It's taken me a while to get through your thread, but I'd like to help if I can. I think one of the reasons you haven't gotten many replies is that you are doing an outstanding job and that is a compliment. Of course your wife is unhappy about being exposed....she now has the face her own shame...and it is not a pretty picture. I think your timing is correct for Plan B for a couple of reasons. First, as you stated, the affair is over. Second, you are losing your love and respect for your wife. Third, trying to do a Plan A when you don't see her at all is practically pointless without making you feel like a complete idiot. In fact, most people stay in Plan A too long, and miss the benefits of the Plan. You are making sound decisions....trust yourself.

Time to draft the Plan B letter...but keep delaying those papers and give it a chance to work. She is going to be surprised when she can no longer contact you. Make sure that EVERYTHING is in place to ensure NO CONTACT. Do not use your daughters as intermediaries...please find some one else if it is necessary. Post your letter and get editting if you like, and by all means, look at the samples you can find.

Another great way to get attention around here is to post to some people individually whose opinions you respect. In your case, I would suggest Mortarman...the king of Plan B. He's a great coach to help you through this.

Good Luck....hope this helps.

Thank you for your replies, TMCM and Star*fish. Feel like I'm starting to get noticed by the best.
Last weekend turned out innocent enough. WW and friends went to a local resort area and behaved themselves. Definitely glad I decided not to call OMW because yesterday morning WW called older D and asked her if I had talked to OMW recently. D told WW she did not think I had talked to OMW in quite a while, though we had each agreed to call the other if there was any reason to suspect OM and WW had been in contact.
WW said that she had been so upset when she heard OMW on our answering machine (5/22 post) that she had called OMW and talked to her! WW had told OMW that A was over and promised that she would end all contact with OM if OMW would agree not to call our house again. D asked WW when she had last been with OM and when she had last talked to him and WW confirmed 4/13/03 and 5/11/03 dates. WW then began to cry and, when D pushed for reason, admitted she was still missing OM very much. So it looks like WW is still deep into withdrawl.
But she has called the house every day this week. We have spoken several times, and each time she says that she will call again. At this point, is there anything in particular that I should be saying to her?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">At this point, is there anything in particular that I should be saying to her?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just try to keep your conversations with her light and brief. Hopefully, after her withdrawl ends, she will contact you and express her desire for rebuilding the marriage. In the meantime, live your life and help your daughters as much as you can with this painful period in your lives. Take them shopping, and if both of them are anything like my two daughters, they're going to be totally ecstatic and grateful to you.

<small>[ July 04, 2003, 01:04 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

<strong>
WW had told OMW that A was over and promised that she would end all contact with OM if OMW would agree not to call our house again
</strong>

....sooo... does that mean that it's OK for her to continue contact if you are contacting OMW? Your WW defiantely feels a strong urge to contact him. Understandably, and you should help her.

Happy Independence Day to all!
TMCM: If I am allowed to pat myself on the back for one thing it is the way I have been helping my Ds through this. I have them in FC and have been taking care of them every way I can. We were always close and have become even closer. Just redecorated younger D's bedroom, including bookshelves she and I built and painted together.
Nick: I think that WW is just trying to make certain that all communication ends. My older D and OW's D have now talked. WW was especially bothered by the idea that OMW might want to contact my Ds. A little daylight can sure mess up an A.
On a funny note, I was going to phone a co-worker this morning, to see if he wanted to golf this weekend, and looked for his number in an address book I keep by the phone. It happens that his last name begins with the letter C, the same as OM and his W. I had written OMW's name, address, and number in the address book. Well, all of the letter C pages are gone! Ripped right out of the book. LOL! I have no idea when WW did it. The woman's just not right.
Anyway, going to have an afternoon cookout with Ds and friends and then watch fireworks. Everyone have a great July 4th, get out and celebrate.

Yesterday WW told younger D that she would like to start staying overnight at our house two or three nights a week, but only if I will spend those nights elsewhere! Ds have agreed that there is no way that this is going to happen. WW is perfectly welcome to spend the night at our house but I will be here.
I had a long talk with my Ds tonight. I told them that I was considering going to a Plan B; sending WW a letter explaining my hopes for our marriage and then stopping all contact with her. Both of my Ds are absolutely against it. They say that they would rather their mother and I remain on a friendly basis and talking. Even if she doesn't come home they want WW and I to be able to communicate, to attend the same functions, etc. And they do not see how this would bring WW home since the A is already over.
WW continues to put a set amount of money into our joint checking account every week. It was over eight weeks ago that I gave WW seperation papers and she has not mentioned them since. I believe that WW is growing tired of living with her mother, tired of being away from her Ds and her home, and tired of her life being in turmoil. But I also believe that WW has absolutely no intention of trying to help me save our M.
I know that I have become a better, stronger person by having gone through all of this (Plan A, IC, etc.). WW and I have now spoken on the phone or in person nearly every day for the past two weeks, but I feel that I have become so careful in avoiding R talk and LBs that I am starting to become lost in the process. I have gotten to the point where I am afraid to confront WW in any normal way for fear that she will end our M. Do any of you feel that you have been forced to loose yourself to save your marriage?

23Down,

Typically Plan B is invoked until the WS disconnects from the OP. In your case this has happened. Your W is in withdrawal. Your continued contact with her will actually help her out of withdrawal. Once that happens she must decide and YOU must decide if you two want to attempt recovery.

You are doing great. One thing, in your current situation you can in fact set boundaries, but do it in a non-LB fashion. No accusations, a simple statement of your discomfort about whatever the situation, and your decision on how to address YOUR discomfort. Nothing about her.

When and if she decides to approach you, there will be A talks. There will be deep painful talks. So don't worry, it will come IF you two go into recovery.

Have patience 23down, you are doing very well and there does seem to be progress. I think you have handled the situation with your D's very well. And I think the fact that they still love their mother will in fact be a big bonus in the possibility of your marriage being recovered.

So hang in there, keep up the good work, and keep working to make YOUR life something you enjoy.

God Bless,

JL

23:

yep. Plan A some more. Don't be afraid 2 talk about your M if you want 2, or if she asks. Be careful, don't LB, but don't avoid progress if you sense that it could result from a little "toe-dipping" in the pool.

"But I also believe that WW has absolutely no intention of trying to help me save our M."

This may be how she feels now. Doesn't matter. This is why you do the things you do in plan A, because you recognize that the WSs state of mind while in withdrawal is 2 be expected but it certainly is not permanent. Who knows what 2morrow will bring? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-ol' 2long

Thanks JL and 2long.
I just got back from a session with my IC. He said that while each of us should strive to become the best we can be, trying to change ourselves only to meet another's expectations will not bring happiness to either them or us.
He also thinks that WW may still be grieving and in withdrawl. He does suggest, though, that I might make myself a little less available to her. That I should be there for WW if she needs me or feels the need to talk, but that I should not seem needy or too anxious to have her come home.
He surprised me tonight by saying he does not think that he needs to see me again for a while. He said that I am doing well, that we have confronted and worked on the issues that he and I thought were my contributions to difficulties in the M, that I am ready to go into the rebuilding of my M if and when my WW is willing to join me. Four months ago I had no idea how I could go on with my life without WW. Now I know that if WW should decide to end our M that my Ds and I will be able to move on without her. I pray it doesn't come to that.
So I think I will continue as I have for a while longer. I want to give WW every possible chance. If I must move on without my WW I want to be able to look her, my Ds, and myself in the eye and know that I did everything that I could have done.
I will continue to post updates and reply to other's posts when I think I can be of some help. Many thanks to all.

WW called this morning wanting to know if my attourney had spoken to me yesterday. WW said that she had contacted her attourney yesterday morning telling her to speak to my attourney ASAP to work out final details. And that a legal seperation would delay the inevitable; she is asking for an annulment.
For over ten weeks WW has never mentioned the legal seperation papers I gave her (I never wanted to consider an annulment), not since OM said NC and WW moved back in with her mom. It seemed that WW and I had been communicating more often lately and I felt she was beginning to come through her withdrawl, starting to miss her home and Ds. Only last week she told my Ds that she would like to start spending more time at our house with them. My younger D will be a high school senior, and they talked about all of the things they would need to do this coming year (pictures, prom, graduation party, etc.) I was hoping with all my heart that WW would return home. I felt that I had been doing so well and getting great advice from everyone here. Now it seems that WW is ready to end our marriage ASAP.
Should I suspect renewed contact with OM? Or is it that, having finally gotten through her grief and withdrawl, she now truly feels that it is better to move on in her life without me? Most importantly, what should I be doing now? Please help!