lablady: I have specifically stated in my PBL that I do no want either WW or I to use our Ds as a go between or a way of contact between us. She should not even try to contact them on our home phone, but use their cell phones if she wishes to speak to them. And you are right, I will not ask them about WW. NC means NC.
My Ds have never met OM and have told WW they never want to be introduced to him, never want to see him, never want to hear his name mentioned in their presence. They have told WW repeatedly that they will never accept OM in their lives. That, of course, is the main source of conflict and pain between them and their mother. In the fog she cannot understand why someone who makes her happy can never be a part of their lives.
Sorry to hear that your WH has not called again. Try to have patience. There may be trouble in paradise, but you will be faced with a hard decision should he call. Stay strong.

NB: I have had an attourney since the beginning, and legal seperation papers were presented to WW over four months ago. They included terms for custody and child support but she has never signed them. WW has a good job and since I will have primary custudy WW will be responsible for paying a sizable amount of CS if our marriage ends.

The last 24 hours have been interesting. Ds went to their grandmothers(G) yesterday. G had not seen Ds is some time because they feel awkward going to her house while WW is living there since G has no knowledge of A. No, I'm not kidding, she doesn't know. G had called younger D a few days ago saying that she would like to see them before they head back to school and I convinced them to go to her house. Ds had a nice visit with G but she insisted they stay for dinner and before they could leave WW showed up. Ds said she was obviously surprised and very nervous. When Ds went outside to leave WW followed them and they talked for a bit. WW told Ds that she does not want to be shut out of their lives, but Ds said that a good relationship would be impossible while WW was in A. Younger D mentioned how badly they felt about WW planning on taking OM to the company party, and WW said that wasn't going to happen now! No explanation. D told WW it made no difference if she was still spending weekend with OM. I hope they don't go, though.
This morning WW called me and said that she had deposited usual amount of money in joint account and would continue to do so until we could work out our financial and legal issues. I thanked her for this.
This afternoon I met her coming out of her office, gave her my Plan B letter, told her that I still love her, and drove away.

Well .... I'm thinking this will have an impact on her ... right away, but WW may not "do anything" for awhile.

The cost of her A has been rising .... and she is becoming aware that this A will be very emotionally expen$ive, not only for herself, but for the entire family as well. That cannot feel good when she actually lets the truth enter her brain.

"Isn't our love wonderful?" .... is becoming "Isn't our love painful for so many innocent people?"

Reality bites.

Hang cool brother .... you're about to be amazed by your own strength and integrity.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Newbranch!
A bit harsh don't you think!
The whole point of being here is that our spouses are doing things that are unimaginable, hateful, hurtful, things they would never do before the A!!
But we still love them and are willing to wait to see if they ever reveal their true loving souls again.
I am not willing to judge my WS on the basis of his fog induced state, and neither should you be judging any one elses!
This is so hard to see what an A does to our spouses without someone saying dump the loser at the one and only place where we should be finding understanding.
Please reconsider your harsh judgemental tone.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pepperband:

""Isn't our love wonderful?" .... is becoming "Isn't our love painful for so many innocent people?"

Reality bites."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Or just maybe "I should have divorced my H first before I went ahead and started a relationship that is being vilified by all my friends and relatives as the cause of the destruction of my family and marriage." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Now that, TMCM, hit the nail on the head!
Had my W at any time come to me and expressed that she was unhappy, that she thought our M was in trouble, I would have done whatever was asked to try and change it. OK, maybe I should have been more attentive and noticed the warning signs that may have been there. But if we had worked to address the problems in our M, if we had gone to IC or MC, if we had both tried to save our M but in doing so discovered we simply had grown so far apart that it was not possible then, well, it happens. It has often been said on this site that some Ms can not survive. My XW would have then been free to continue her life and pursue happiness as she saw best. But no! In my case, not only is my wife having an A but with a MM. It now looks as if two families will be destroyed by their adulterous behavior.

Shugah, I won't change my mind one iota. There are two children here being destroyed while foggy bottom wife lolls around in her world. I don't buy fog making you hurt your own children and in my book, my kids come first when someone causes them harm. And this is harm beyond hurtful.
It's one thing when it's just a two person issue. But are you forgetting the Daughters?
If you think mom can come out of fog land one day and restore herself with them, you are way wrong.
There is no way she can ever mend that breach. Are you a mother? How many children do you have?
Isn't it nice people can just say, Oops. fog in my eyes, and do as they please while bringing irreparable harm to innocents?
If one has a brain, they have to see who is getting hurt the most.
I commend these girls on their attitude so far and refusal to have anything to do with the alcoholic OM mom loves or seems to prefer!
Perhaps you have not dealt with a mommy bear?
Count me as one right here!
23down has a lot to take care of without worrying if WW is going to stand in a big wind and see clearly.
First priority now is children until they are grown and can fend for themselves.
Or do you say just let all the destruction go on and let them learn to live with it? Or struggle with it for lifetime?
You are speaking here to a woman whose parents divorced when I was near 4 yrs old, brother 10.
I'm 61 and I will never forget. It leaves scars forever no matter how much you try to regain some type of relationship or bond.
I'm thinking of 23's two daughters and their future. His wife made her own choice, but she should not be allowed to have everyone sitting around with open arms, waiting on her to decide what she wants most in her life.
While she's lala landing, people's lives are being effected forever.
You want her to have a second chance? I believe in saving marriages also.
But I also believe these 3 tortured souls can look her in the eye and tell her either us or him. Now or never!
Should do a pretty good job of blowing fog out to sea unless this is really her and not some fantasy person who cropped up temporarily.
You know, sometimes even medical science uses the shock value in helping people.

23, as for her not signing papers. If she does decide to stop the support by bank deposits, you do not need her signature to get the courts to demand she do her part. They'll even award support and take it right out of her paycheck so she has no choice! It isn't up to her to sign or agree to it, it's the law!
I wish you well 23. Take good care of you and daughters first and last. I am certainly thinking of you and children when I post here. I understand your pain, but look around at those daughters and realize, pain is inside them as well. This isn't a life where we can wait until all destruction has been done then just sweep it away. LouLou

23Down,

Sorry I hadnt noticed your thread before...but the Plan B part of the title got my attention!! As you know, I love Plan B, for so many reasons.

Since I am playing catch-up, I wont go into what already has been discussed. I think you have had some excellent advice and should definitely go dark.

Now, some observations after reading your thread. First, you talked about the childrens' grandmother not knowing about the A. Is this your MIL? If so, why doesnt she know?

The reason I ask this question is because I know you have noticed that every time the light of day is shown on their affair, your WW reacts very angrily. Why? Because light shown into the darkness of the Fog. It hurts. It brings reality into the fantasy. And then they have to work twice as hard to try to keep the fantasy alive.

The OM was content to keep the affair right where it was until you and your Ds contacted his wife. Now, as things spiral downward, he has moved out and wants your WW to do also. To go hide in their fantasy.

My wife did the same thing. When I went to Plan B for good, after exposing their immoral behavior for all to see, her and Om went to Florida to meet his family over Christmas. They worked twice as hard to get their relationship moving. But 6 weeks into this, after she had been taken to Florida, seen the house he owned on a golf course, blah, blah, blah...she was on MY door wanting to talk.

Reality WILL chase her down. She can run, but she cannot hide. The idea of having the OM's wife in on this is great also. I didnt have that option. But to have the affair hit by all sides will give them not a day of rest.

So, go to Plan B. Make sure that this thing stays exposed. If your daughters feel that they want nothing to do with your wife after she abandoned not only their Dad, but them also...then let them in on it.

You see, the funny thing here is that she does love her daughters. And she does love you. She is searching for her "hit," for the OM to fill her addiction. And she is chasing after it no matter who she hurts, whether she loses her job, respect, daughters, etc. It is, as a friend of mine has always said, "like having two ticks without a dog!" They will suck the life out of each other. You and the OMW stop being the dog supplying the "blood" of their relationship. Let them feed on each other.

But that cannot endure. Now is the time to get out of the way and let them destroy each other. Get the OMW and get the plan together. Then, go dark. Have the OMW go dark too. No LBs by ANYONE. The OMW has to agree to this also, so that there will be no fuel to add to their fire.

Then they can sit alone, and wonder why they are alone.

In His arms.

<small>[ August 20, 2003, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

As always, thank-you for your replys.

NB: Though your views may seem a little harsh to some on this board, I always apprecate your advice and opinions. I will have to say that WW has been brutal to Ds during A. They had just started to warm a bit toward WW over the past few weeks thinking that A was over, and were crushed when they discovered Thursday that WW and OM were back in contact. OM is coming from Canada this weekend to be with WW for first time in four months. Ds have decided that they will be driving to visit a friend who lives eight hours away, I think in part to get away from all of this. Ds are 17 and 20 and, as I wrote to WW in PBL, they will have to decide for themselves if there is a way to have any type of relationship with her.

MM: Glad to finally hear from you. Several have told me I should try to contact you, the King of PB.
Yes, G is MIL. I beieve that she may suspect A by now but I have not spoken to her directly about it for fear of alienating WW's sisters, who have both expressed their disappointment and willingness to help.
Prophetically at exactly my WWs age (45) MIL divorced WW's father for a six year A with a married man. MIL (now 80) never so much as dated after the A ended nearly thirty years ago. WW has always viewed her mother as a strong, independent woman for having left a man she felt she no longer loved in order to find happiness. Scary, ain't it.
I think OMW could posssibly be a good ally in my PB. She is aware of the methods (I sent her my first copy of SAA) but since the renewed contact she does not seem to have any desire to save her M. Divorce would make her a wealthy woman.
But I was able to do a very good PA, and I hope to do a very dark PB with everyones help and support. I will be strong, I will take care of my girls, I will survive.

23down. Great attitude. You are thinking even through all this pain. Taking care of you and D's is number one priority.
The suggestion of D's going dark is good one also, but of course, they're old enough to decide that for themselves.
Obviously, they are doing sort of a plan there by disappearing when OM is coming to see mom.
This is so hard on them as well for a mother is one children really are dependent on for so many things even when they're grown up.
So sad your wife doesn't realize how much damage she may be doing with her own children.
Of course, I love a happy ending and pray all will go well for your family.
Repairing damage is hard work, and as one who has been the child as well as the BW, I can tell you it's sometimes never the same for the children.
If and when WW comes out of her fantasy land and does want to work to save the marriage, family counseling would definitely be in order I believe.
Everyone deals in a different way. But I can tell you this, I never got over the betrayal of my father to us, and even though there was love, I never could come to terms with another being so much more important over my brother and I and mom.
Your D's may deal better, but I can truly say I question it even to this day. I question the love and the deed! And my parents are both dead now.
If I am blunt in some people's eyes, so be it!
I just happen to know the lifelong pain those children may suffer.
You see, you can always find a new love, someone to share your life with if it comes to that.We do survive and get over spouses. But Children can never replace a mother and/or father!
So in many ways, the children suffer much more than the spouses ever do!
LouLou

I have taken my Ds to family counseling for the last two months. In fact we had a session tonight. When I first began going counselor asked me what were my goals. I told him first to save my marriage, second to help my Ds, and third to help myself. He said we should begin with me so that I could learn skills that might help save my M but, more importantly, could help my Ds if the worst should happen. I was excellent advice. I now feel that whether or not my M survives Ds and I will be OK, but both Ds understand that either way things can now never be the same between them and their mother. They may in time learn to forgive, but I'm afraid they have been through too much to ever forget.

23:

Nobody should forget. Forgiveness is healthy for everybody, but true forgiveness is NOT forgetfulness.

I like your atti2de. Taking care of you, then Ds, then M is the right order. It's like on an airliner, when you're told 2 put the mask on yourself before helping your kids. If you didn't, you might pass out before you could help your kids, and then where would you be?

You will survive and thrive, is ol' 2long's prediction!

-2long

23down, you certainly have the right of it and good advice from your counselor.
As I told mine, things changed forever and they could never be the same.
Hence, now you know where I got my name here. My counselor said, "Grow a New Branch".
The old one is dead, it can never be revived, but it still can be good and happy if all sincerely wish to make it work again.
I am sorry for your D's because I know the pain well. The love doesn't die for parent, but it does change the feelings. Now daughters have to live with asking themselves how could mom do this to them. Why didn't she love them more than OM.
They can forgive, but not forget, and it's going through life with them.
Counseling, I hope, will help them heal and be healthy emotionally. And you as well!
Blessings, LouLou

Just a quick post before I go out tonight. Some friends asked me to meet them at a karaoke bar, and I'm going. Heck, I might even sing.
Ds made it to friends last night, took train into Chicago today, went to museum and Navy Pier. Ds said they didn't call WW to say they were OK and sadly WW has not tried to find out. There was a time not so long ago when WW would have gone crazy if Ds had not called her when they got there. This weekend OM is in town so she doesn't seem to care at all. Looks like our PB will be me having NC of any kind and Ds having NC whenever WW is with OM, by their choice or hers.
Yes, NB, my Ds certainly feel that WW has chosen OM over them now and she is really starting to loose them.

23down, glad you and D's are going out and having a bit of fun! You all deserve it.
Hey,what you going to sing? LOL I would not dare as my voice is awful after vocal cord surgery for a polyp. Though I love music.
You are the rock for your D's 23, and they're going to be ok with a dad like you!
Life doesn't always hand us the easy route, but we sure can keep climing until we get the beautiful view from the top!
Have a great weekend. LouLou

Update for those who might be following. Got through the weekend well. Went out with friends Saturday. (BTW, NewBranch, I sang Bob Seager's "Turn The Page" and got big applause!) Ds got home from friends Monday safe and sound, and younger D started senior year of high school today.
WW called today (I didn't answer) and left a voice mail. This time I decided to listen before I erased it.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you want to you can e-mail me at WW@company.com.
23, I wish it didn't have to be like this. I wish.... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course I didn't answer. NC is NC, dark is dark.
But I was very tempted to e-mail her two words </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It didn't </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

23, glad you had fun and D's got home safely. sounds like you must have a great voice. I love karoke, but I can't sing. LOL Oh well, we can't have all the talent in one package, now can we.
Good you have friends that are getting you out,that really helps through this tough time.
Hope all this turmoil doesn't effect daughters too much in their school events and grades.
High school is an exciting time for them!
You did well on the message ignore. Stay dark and let WW stew!
Blessings. LouLou

23:

For me it would have had 2 have been something from an early 70's King Crimson album, but then I'd probably put the audience 2 sleep, or get them hopelessly depressed or something. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Good thing you DIDN'T reply with "It didn't"! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> even though that's absolutely correct. She needs 2 think about what she's chosen for herself, 23. But you know that, and that's why you resisted the temptation.

I wish you all the best,
-2long

Feeling pretty low today. Talked to one of our best friends who says that WW has told her repeatedly that even if it does not work out with OM that she is never coming home. Our friend, who I know cares very much for me and does not want to hurt me, said that WW wants out of M and would have left years ago if not for Ds. Have any FWS said these things while in A and then restored their M? Ds and I could use some encouragement but, please, no false hope.
Also, I am sure this has been discussed before but could use advice. Monday (9/1) is our 24th wedding anniversary (24down ?). Each year before I have done roses, dinner at a nice place, the works. So what about this year? A single rose sent to her mother's house where she is staying. A note or a card? Or do I treat it as just another PB day? Do I recognize the occasion at all or stay dark?

Hi 23,
Sorry you're feeling so down.

Have you read Surviving An Affair? I finally bought it this week and it's very helpful, even at this stage in the whole mess.

You said in your last post, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have any FWS said these things while in A and then restored their M? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I certainly did. I remember telling a family member that I was 'miserable' in the marriage. This certainly wasn't true. It was all 'fog talk'. We separated in the fall of 2000 and I was pretty 'happy'at certain moments about having 'freedom' to see exOM. I felt this way off and on for several months. Truly, 23, reality didn't really HIT for awhile. It's hard to explain the pull of an affair. I remember driving to meet exOM. I felt like I was a moth drawn to light. I couldn't resist it for quite a while, as bad and awful and self-destructive as it was. I'd think to myself, "You're a crazy nut, driving around looking for this silly man". When OM moved locally my doubts about him and the whole dumb relationship were finally solidified for me. I could see what a mess I had made, and it was hard to admit it and extract myself for quite some time. In reading the book, I'm seeing that I'm not alone in feeling that way.

Hang in there, and take care of you. Your daughters are lucky to have you. Someday your wife will certainly come out of the A and realize how lucky she was, too. Remember, affairs almost always die.

Mine took 17 months from D Day until it ended. In the book, Harley says most 'die' at around 6 months after exposure, but some take up to 2 years after DDay. He said it's rare for it to last two years beyond DDay, but at times they do. Please don't give up!

As far as the anniversary goes, I think it's a lovely gesture to send something. Let her know that even though you're not together, you're thinking of her and you'll never regret marrying her. You could also add something about wanting to be with her again someday on your anniversary.

You know, 23, I've never received a card or acknowledgement of any kind for any holiday/occasion since exH and I separated almost three years ago. You're quite the 'giver' to want to do this, in light of everything. I don't blame my exH at all for not sending me anything, I didn't deserve it. I still love him more than ever, despite the fact that he doesn't send me things, etc.

The power of love, and the love that BS's are able to show their WS's continues to be inspirational!

H_P

23:

It's always risky answering questions like yours with resounding positives, because there will always be the chance that she WON'T come home. But I think you'll find from most FWSs here, that more often than not they DO come back 2 the marriage after saying things like your WW has said 2 you.

My W never left the home, but said everything you've heard and more. For years, it looked hopeless 2 me. Only after D-day did I know enough 2 be able 2 understand her statements at all, and even then it 2k ME a very long time, LBing fast and furious a good chunk of it, 2 be able 2 take that understanding and 2rn it in2 something useful for our relationship.

Try not 2 focus on the hurtful things she's saying now.

take care, I've got 2 catch a plane!
-2long