Well folks. It's Sunday morning at ten to six, and my W has "left for the day." We had a short argument, and I LBed pretty big, and she left. When she got dressed, she gave me a kiss and went outside, came back in to borrow my key to her car so she could get hers, then came back, and pleasantly said to have a good day. It was all very weird.

It all started yesterday morning. We woke up early, before the sun, snuggling. She seemed interesed in SF, so I told her I was too, but then she said something like I'd have SF with you, but I'm worried about what you think it might mean (meaning, I think, that I put more meaning into it than she does). Or words to that effect. Turned me off, to say the least. But I remained calm and don't remember what I said, trying to assure her that I don't want her to feel pressured.

She seemed depressed, and wanted to talk, which was great, I thought! I hadn't initiated any R talks in over a month, and wanted to wait for her to be ready anyway. So, it seemed good that she was deciding to talk about our R on her own.

We talked about a number of things that we've rehashed before, so I didn't remember the details of that stuff. But we also talked about other things that I do remember clearly. Some of them were positive, like me telling her that I've been reading "that book that you said you wanted to read when I got through" (PM). And she said "I'd still like to", so I gave it to her right then. I even read her the paragraph in the intro about giving your spouse your copy of the book to read, which was pretty funny (the part about if you're not ready to speak for yourself, you're probably not ready for the ensuing discussion). So, that was a good thing.

She also brought up our last convo about RM, but said I reacted to her news of having talked to him last month by saying something I know I didn't say. That was weird. I wish I could remember what she thought I said, but it was "worse" than what I did say, which was "I'm just a little scared, that's all." I distinctly remember that I said absolutely nothing else at that time (and I told her so), because I was making a point of not bringing him up myself unless she wanted to talk about him.

But she said that when she talked to him, it was because he was coming to visit his dad (lives locally), and she wanted him to bring the samples he still has back with him and drop them off at work. We were just leaving for our house out of state together, so she wouldn't be able to meet him (and I don't believe she needs to, either). Anyway, he still hasn't sent the sample boxes back, which annoys me precisely because it doesn't seem to annoy her enough.
Somewhere in that, I mentioned that she had told me a year ago that she was going to have someone else deal with communication with him so she wouldn't need to, but she said that person "didn't work out" so she has to do it. So she still talks to him occasionally. In her words, "I never talk to him about sexual stuff, and hardly ever talk about anything personal." What's "hardly ever" mean, when any personal contact is over the line? She also said, "his situation has made it hard for me (he's separated, possibly DVing). I miss him terribly." That HURTS ME terribly!! It's been almost 15 months since D-day! She said again that I can't expect her to stop caring about him, and I reminded her that she won't stop having strong feelings for him if she can't stop talking to him. All this was very calmly stated.

I told her that she's always telling me that she doesn't know whether she can trust me or not, and I said "Trust me to what??? It's been 15 months since D-day, I've learned a lot, you've got to acknowledge that I am not the same person I was when your A started. This is me. This is it. I can only be myself. What's to trust/not trust??" She acknowledged the points, but said that she still can't get past my reaction to her "trouble" 12 years ago, when I said "so long as there's no sex, it's not an A" (which translated to her as "I don't care about you as a person, I just care about whether you're having sex only with me. You're no more important that your sexuality to me." Don't laugh, that's what she says she got out of that). We can go on forever second-guessing our past, rewriting what was said (which we each remember differently), but what good will that do? We've done this many times. I simply said "You know that wasn't what I meant. You know that I didn't know what to do at the time. You know that part of my reaction was due to you increasing the distance between us yourself. I didn't know why. I was confused. I didn't know what to say. I didn't know what I know now. There's no way I could have responded better at the time. We have now. What are we going to do with now?

We talked about Schnarch's concepts of "emotional fusion" and "differentiation", and I pointed out that some of the things she's said to me sound like what he labels emotional fusion (to RM, in this case): Schnarch's paraphrased words were that people who live by "borrowed functioning" or a "reflected sense of self", say things like "you bring out the best in me," which my W has said to RM. And to me she said "you're asking me to give up half of who I am" when I told her she had to choose, last July." Oddly, she agreed with the concepts, but I don't know whether she agreed with what I quoted her saying last summer. But it was interesting, and she did seem to want to read the book herself.

After the convo, she seemed REALLY interested in SF, and since I still was, we had SF. It was lovely, and I thought we both enjoyed holding each other for a long while afterwards, but I did feel a sense of sadness too, like it was "makeup sex" again. I guess in a way it was. Later in the morning, as we were getting ready to go work on the other house, she came over for a long hug, which I was happy to give.

Yesterday was good, we worked together closely all day. Had a BBQ last night, and watched a scifi movie in the evening.

This morning, I woke up holding her as she was waking up. I stroked her back, because her muscles were sore, and she liked that. We started talking about stuff, and she said "I just realized it's been 19 months, not 18." She was talking about when the fire occurred. Then she corrected herself, and said "18." I continued stroking her back, and asked if she was interesed in some more SF (because I won't just initiate anymore, it hurts too much to be rejected by her these days - I'm serious!), and she got upset with me. She said something like "I can't believe..." leading into a rebuke of my advances that I don't remember, but it struck me that she can't think about our SF as more than just sex because she's pidgeon-holed me again with all "men" regarding sex, which isn't where I am at all. Anyway, it really frustrated me, because I KNOW that was what the PA was based on, and I'm tired of being thought of as the same kind of "man" as RM is whenever I'm trying to express my love for my W physically! Sit down now. In reaction, I said, "I can't believe that, after 15 months since I found out about your A with RM, that you're still talking to that [censored]!" ...which ended that conversation.

So, folks. She said other things in reaction to my LB comment that I can't remember exactly. Things like we have nothing in common anymore, or we're not going to be able to get past this, kind of things. I guess I should feel somewhat encouraged - PM was on her nightstand after I gave it to her yesterday. It's not there now. I wonder if she took it with her?

But even though she left calmly, I don't feel very positive right now. My initial thoughts were of filing for DV next week, I was so angry and frustrated, but they've subsided some. But what's in their place right now is a strong feeling of utter futility. I remember "usedlongago's" sitch and, truth be told, I don't know of anyone I've read about who's survived a long-term A. Period. Please tell me I'm wrong. I'm running out of steam and reasons for feeling encouraged.

-Qfwfq <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">or we're not going to be able to get past this, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IMHO, you cannot get "past" something until that something has been removed and is no longer influencing the way people think and behave. Getting past it gets started when it is OVER...not while it is ongoing.

It would have been more appropriate for her to have said...
"we're not going to get along as long as you do not accept RM's presence in my life, in whatever capacity I decide". But then again, that would have sounded quite ludicrous...huh?

She has no plans to put him in her past...to have it ongoing is dealing with it...not getting past it. Again, just my very humble opinion.

Hope things brighten up for you today.

committed

committed:

You are absolutely right. I agree 100%. I've been patient because I thought it was the right thing to do - to let my W realize, on her own, the prepostrous nature of her continued R with RM. This work is an excuse. The man has demonstrated to me and my D (who works with my W now), that he's either incompetent or so screwed up in his personal life that he's trying to manipulate my W into screwing up her own life, either consciously or subconsciously. I don't care which.

But I've waited almost 15 months for some sign of "remorse" or anything showing me that my W intends to "heal" and commit 100% to OUR relationship. In the process, I've learned to be able to TELL, with some certainty, just how committed she is, without needing to snoop (to those out there snooping, you WILL get to this point where it becomes completely unecessary). And I would say that she's maybe 60% committed to US emotionally. And now, after all this time, even though I "know" that this project is supposed to be completed in October (though it will likely take longer), I am doubtful that I will be willing to wait 6 more months to save our 27 yr M. Because the sincere desire on her part just doesn't seem to be there.

-Qfwfq

Q ~

I know you don't think Plan B is appropriate for you.

But I think the downsides to a long term plan A are clearly showing in your case.

Are you talking to Steve these days? Or are you just hanging around in limbo?

The thing is, I can't think of anyone who has progressed into recovery doing what you are doing. And you are clearly wearing down in your ability to maintain this status quo.

I'm not necessarily saying Plan B, but I do think a refocus of your thoughts might be in order.

You see, your post was all about your wife, and where she's at and what she thinks and all that jazz.

If you start just taking care of Q.....what are you afraid of happening?

BR:

"Are you talking to Steve these days? Or are you just hanging around in limbo?"

I'm reading a lot. I'm not talking to Steve, though, because of my... ...ANGER at the Harley "attitude" about unconditional love. It's NOT a fallacy, but it certainly can appear that way if one tries to "use it" to end an A - that's imposing a condition, which is ridiculous. I've been going on the assumption that my W has a mind of her own and I can't make her do anything she doesn't want to do. I can ask her to do things for me, or I can tell her about how I feel about her indecision, but I can't demand anything. She won't talk to SH with me, though I haven't asked recently (and am not sure I care to now).

"The thing is, I can't think of anyone who has progressed into recovery doing what you are doing. And you are clearly wearing down in your ability to maintain this status quo."

Yes, I am.

"You see, your post was all about your wife, and where she's at and what she thinks and all that jazz."

Yes, it was. Wasn't it! ;o)

"If you start just taking care of Q.....what are you afraid of happening?"

I'm afraid of facing the inevitibility of DV, which I think is what it is now.

-Qfwfq

Q~

I don't think you've earned your divorce yet. Taking care of Q does NOT equal Q getting a divorce. Trust me, a piece of paper saying that you are no longer legally bound doesn't have one bit of power over your personal growth or the emotional bindings. It's not a cure for what you've got!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm reading a lot. I'm not talking to Steve, though, because of my... ...ANGER at the Harley "attitude" about unconditional love. It's NOT a fallacy, but it certainly can appear that way if one tries to "use it" to end an A - that's imposing a condition, which is ridiculous. I've been going on the assumption that my W has a mind of her own and I can't make her do anything she doesn't want to do. I can ask her to do things for me, or I can tell her about how I feel about her indecision, but I can't demand anything. She won't talk to SH with me, though I haven't asked recently (and am not sure I care to now). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Reading is good...to a point. But the problem is, that mere human beings like you and me get caught up in our own little heads with subtle little wrongo turns in our thinking....and if we aren't reaching out to others who have more and better experience...well...we get stuck in our own little mental traps.

I want to ask about yoru ANGER. Hmmm...don't you think that ANGER regarding a difference in viewpoint is a bit extreme?

It's kinda funny, because today I've been doing some writing about anger at my Al-Anon sponsors direction, because she says I still have alot of anger regarding my husbands A. Oh boy do I ever! And what I am discovering...again and again...that anger covers fear.

I've got lots of fear for various reasons, mostly regarding the fact that my husband hasn't stopped drinking.

So what is your fear? I think you've gone a tad astray with your thinking. Yes, you can't force your wife...all those things you said above are true and right.

But the problem, IMHO, is that you forgot the other key ingredient. Self love and self care are just as important as allowing your wife to make her own choices. So it sounds to me like you've slipped into a Plan Doormat, allowing her to walk all over you and getting angrier by the second when she doesn't respond how you think she should to your Plan D!

You've more than given her a chance to choose marital recovery. She hasn't done so. And you are angry beyond belief that she hasn't. Why would she? You aren't exactly putting up boundaries to care for yourself that make impossible for her to continue what she's doing.

It seems to me aht you are afraid of something that keeps you from drawing those boundaries. I'm not talking about divorce. But what I am talking about is that you follow thru on your recognition of her freedom to make her own choices. You've got that freedom too...instead of waiting around for her to change her choices...what does Q need???

Q,

"It's being honest. It's refusing to tread on eggshells for the rest of your life. It's $h!++ing and getting off the pot, J.R!"

This is a quote from a familiar someone earlier in the month, to me. I'd noted how I'd taken a strong stand with WW, and had seen some signs of change due to it. This fella was encouraging, reiterating a phrase I recall from PM, actually - "$h!+ or get off the pot!"

Strength => dignity => respect => love

I think you still have plenty of avenues to move down this pathway with your W... but maybe remaining in the status quo isn't the key. Maybe there are ways to cultivate this path, starting from you. Plan B as a very last resort, there are several tools out there. Open, honest communication, not being afraid to speak your mind (in a caring way), etc. - all things espoused to me in the past by others.

To illustrate, I see WW and I slowly moving down a path based on me posing some very difficult questions for her, freely and openly. Honestly, I feel like a parent talking to a child in many ways, but I'm not yelling or screaming about things - just askin' questions, and making observations. And it's a path with a destination - it builds a case for a "joint decision" - where she has it one way or another, but not both. It's interesting and will result in closure, and I'm happy about that. And that's coming from someone who's been at this a while, too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I hate to be negative, Q, especially since your reply to my last post really picked me up, but I think that committed and Bramble may be right. It is good that the you and W are able to communicate on a level that many a WS and BS never reach. Yet it seems that your W is determined to stay in contact with OM for some time to come and a R is going to be impossible until it is truly over. I can understand your unwillingness to go to Plan B if you still have enough love left to stay with Plan A, and I admire your incredible patience. But remember that Plan A was about you becoming better for yourself, not becoming what W wants you to be. Do you want to remain in any relationship where one of you is committed 60%? After 15 months if you feel that you have grown into the best Q you can be then it may be time to move on to whatever you feel should be the next step. DV need not be your only consideration, but it is probably time to let W believe that you can go forward without her if you must. And it is just as important that you believe that you can.

Q it seems that your W has NO incentive whatsoever from ending her 'friendship' with RM because there are no adverse consequences for her to do so. Have you ever given her heads up warning that if she doesn't end her relationship with OM, that you can't guarantee you will not divorce her? Understand that I'm in no way talking about issuing ultimatums to her but simply issuing a statement of fact of a very likely future scenario.

On the surface it seems that your W has no intention of ending her relationship with RM because he is still fullfiling an EN or two. Her talk about the person who was going to handle all work related matters with him not working out, seems like a lame excuse to me.

As far as her rejecting your SF advances is concerned, have you ever told her how much it hurts you her rejection and her angry outbursts trivializing your need to express your love to her physically, that you no longer initiate anything?

I hate to say this, but it's hard to be optimistic that she will end her R with RM if you continue dealing with the sitch in the same fashion.

Q, you still haven't really set any true boundries...the kind that come with consequences. You keep "informing" and then leaving it up to her to decide how she's going to use the information. That might work in a healthy marriage, but she's still solidly in the fog, jumping fence whenever it suits her.

I think you refuse to Plan B because it's something you don't feel you want to find the strength to do...because it does take enourmous strength...probly more than an actual divorce. Ironically I think it's strength that your wife is looking for in you. I could be wrong on all counts...it's just a feeling I get from reading your posts for a long long time. Things never really seem to change much.

Anyway, I hope you figure it out. Making the decision to change is usually the hardest part in actually making the change. Good luck!

"No Consequences to her actions = No motivation to change".

Q:
I see good and bad in the conversations you two have. Some positives, some negatives.

It may be as hope says that it's time to say what you will live with and what you won't live with and then see what she wants to do.

Not answering in that case would mean the same as a "no, I'm not willing to do what you need."

But, very first, I would wait and see what she says/does when she comes home. You might be able to get her talking by asking her: " So, where do you feel we are heading?"

And never, never base what you do on feelings when you have just had a big blowout. Make up your mind to be nice when you see her. ( but you can be nice and have boundries.)

I only have a minute, and I have to be somewhere, I wish I could be in on this one for a while.

SS

Well, I went and worked on the other house for a few hours, and she went and did whatever she did for a couple. I came back an hour or so ago and she was here. Said hi while I was making myself a sandwich and she said hi back. She's upstairs or someplace and I'm filling this out.

You're all right. I'm just still too pissed off to do anything constructive.

-Qfwfq

Q,

I like most of the responses you have received. I particularly like Hope4's response. Why? Because while you are hide bound not to use Plan B or accept the Harley view of unconditional love, you are missing some important things in my mind.

So let me ask you a few questions.

1. Would you marry a women that has no forgiveness in her heart?

2. Would you marry a woman that plays mental games with your emotions?

3. If some OTHER human being pulled some of the stuff she has pulled with regard to rewriting history, would you tolerate it?

4. If you met someone who respected and even loved someone with little or no moral character, would you want to be around them?

If the answer is no to all or most of those questions, then I think the idea of unconditional love is seriously flawed and must be reexamined. Such a person should not be given unconditional love because they wouldn't appreciate the gift and would indeed squander it if not destroy it.

My feeling is that your W deserves AT BEST conditional love from you. THat is all she has earned at this point. Further, she cannot tell the difference between the two.

So whether you believe in unconditional love or not, I know you do, the issue is who deserves such a gift? And who deserves love based on their actions?

It is, as always, your call. You two are playing a very dangerous game right now. She adhering to her "right" to continue to talk to this man because he is part of her. And you adhering to the concept of unconditional love, all the while thinking of divorce. Personally, I don't care much for the positions you two have taken on the issue of your marriage. It allows for very little flexibility on either of your parts. Her's offers you little or no respect for what you have done and do. Your's presupposes that she is incapable of earning your love so you must give it to her "unconditionally" with the condition that you will divorce her if she doesn't get her act together. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Q, it is time for a serious reevaluation of your position on things, your goals, and what you are willing to do to acheive them. A serious mission planning meeting is required here. That is my thought on the matter.

I hope something I said is of help.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ April 27, 2003, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

Q needs to find Q

You need to find yourself, Q. Who you are, what makes you happy, fulfilled, love.

But you need to find this within YOU. Not in terms of what M does, does not do, thinks, says, means...in YOUR terms.

SHE does not MAKE you feel anything, YOU feel what you feel from inside of you. Fear, love...

Once you do that, what M does or does not do ceases to matter. It ceases to be what makes you happy, sad, fulfilled, empty.

My apologies up front to all who have posted to me here. And to all I have posted to over the past 15 months. I'm still rather angry at myself for being in this position after all this time. I feel like a chump, and I'm tired of feeling like one. I will answer JL's questions and try to make a few clarification comments, then I plan to get off here for a while and figure my $h!+ out, what I plan to do.

JL:

"So let me ask you a few questions."

'No' to all your questions.

"If the answer is no to all or most of those questions, then I think the idea of unconditional love is seriously flawed and must be reexamined. Such a person should not be given unconditional love because they wouldn't appreciate the gift and would indeed squander it if not destroy it."

Um, JL. This is absurd. Does your God refuse to give her love to her creations because of their bad behavior? Okay, I'm not God, and I don't apply unconditional love "perfectly". The problem isn't that my W doesn't deserve my unconditional love, the problem is that people seem to think that I can't separate unconditional love from romantic love, and that I'm applying unconditional love to get my W to do something. I'm not. I very definitely AM placing conditions on my romantic feelings that I give to my W that, if not reciprocated (either because she can't, won't, or shouldn't), I will cease to have reason to give her. But, like SC, I hope to be able to love my W as she has chosen to be, even if we DV and never reconcile. I don't want to feel bitterness and resentment toward her for the rest of my life, as we interact for our kids and future grandkids.

"My feeling is that your W deserves AT BEST conditional love from you. THat is all she has earned at this point. Further, she cannot tell the difference between the two."

No, she can't. Most people can't. I can't much of the time.

"So whether you believe in unconditional love or not, I know you do, the issue is who deserves such a gift? And who deserves love based on their actions?"

Answer: Everybody deserves unconditional love. Even RM, unfortunately. I'm not capable of loving him unconditionally, though. I can muster a speck of respect if he performs one simple act: Break off all contact with my W for the rest of his life. Nothing less will impress me whatsoever. Love based on actions? This is conditional love, whatever "love" it is. Since the only other kind of love I can imagine feeling for my W is romantic love, I'd say yeah, I get your point. She may not deserve my romantic love.

"It is, as always, your call. You two are playing a very dangerous game right now. She adhering to her "right" to continue to talk to this man because he is part of her. And you adhering to the concept of unconditional love, all the while thinking of divorce."

I don't understand this statement at all.

"Personally, I don't care much for the positions you two have taken on the issue of your marriage. It allows for very little flexibility on either of your parts. Her's offers you little or no respect for what you have done and do."

I agree.

"Your's presupposes that she is incapable of earning your love so you must give it to her "unconditionally" with the condition that you will divorce her if she doesn't get her act together."

This is incorrect, and based on a confusing mixture of romantic (conditional) and unconditional love. They don't mix. And at the moment, I "feel" like DVing her if she doesn't get her act together, but intellectually, I agree with BR, that I haven't "earned" a DV. I remain frustrated, bitter and angry.

"Q, it is time for a serious reevaluation of your position on things, your goals, and what you are willing to do to acheive them. A serious mission planning meeting is required here. That is my thought on the matter."

I agree, and will consider what I can/should do.

SC:

"You need to find yourself, Q. Who you are, what makes you happy, fulfilled, love."

Most definitely. I believe I've made large strides in that area, particularly in the past few months. I think you'd agree. I won't pretend that I don't have a few megaparsecs of growth to do, though.

"But you need to find this within YOU. Not in terms of what M does, does not do, thinks, says, means...in YOUR terms.

SHE does not MAKE you feel anything, YOU feel what you feel from inside of you. Fear, love..."

This is all true. And it may be that I have to get away from her in order to simply have the quiet time to realize this. Seriously. I spend most of my time with her doing stuff. Like her keeping busy to keep from thinking. She makes others around her keep busy to keep her from thinking, too. And it keeps me from thinking, except about resentment. ...but that's my mood of the moment speaking.

-Qfwfq

Q-

Don't go away...we would miss you WAY too much.

You're just vey emotional right now and need to sit through this. People just want to help and sometimes, you might not LIKE what they have to say, BUT they can see things from a different perspective than you.

Even if it's just to say HI....don't disappear, please...

Q,

I do not want to get in the unconditional love argument here. That is better left for later, when we all have time to ponder such things.

But Hope4future did have one great point, that JL expanded upon. And this is where you need to concentrate, IMO. She talked about Plan B, and the WS needing respect for the BS. THIS IS EXACTLY RIGHT

After going through what I have, I now realize the full extent of Plan A and Plan B. with Plan A, the positive effects on the WS is that they begin to see a different BS. The reasons for their A begin to have holes in them. But the negative side of Plan A is that many times, the WS loses some respect for the BS. They see them as maybe spineless, or willing to be walked on. No boundaries. And to an extent, they are right. That is why the Harleys say you can only do this for a short period of time.

Once the BS has made the changes needed to be a better spouse, and there has been sufficient time for the WS to see these changes, almost all of these deals HAVE to go to Plan B Why? let me tell you what I have found out from my wife

You have been involved in my story for some time. You know my wife and I sought some type of reconciliation on several occasions, the last false one was this last October. Since we are now in recovery, I have asked my wife a few questions. The first biggy was "when did you start thinking that you wanted to come home?" I thought she would answer "After Christmas...after the OM called out his ex's name during sex." But guess when it was? November!!! A couple of weeks after our last breakdown and her running back to OM. I asked why she didnt do anything about it then. Why she continued to see him, to go to Florida with him, etc. And the answer surprised me.

She told me that all along, she had seen the changes happening in me It is what kept her coming back. But now, she had a new set of "problems" with me. She no longer respected me. I was willing to sit there, be separated from her, see no one else (that is why WSs push BSs to get involved with someone else...it lessens their guilt). I wa willing to work at a marriage she had abandoned. I had changed in the problems I had before the affair. But, now I wasnt being strong, in her eyes. Plan A needed to be followed by Plan B!

She said the several times I had stood up to her, and started divorce proceedings, or shut down communications, this is when she moved toward me in those times of false reconciliation. But she knew I didnt mean it. And that drove her to push hard on me, for us to fight...and then her to run back to OM.

So, I asked her what changed? She told me that she noticed a change in me in November. I stopped calling her at all. The only contact we had was her calling me about the kids. In December, I went on Prozac (she didnt know it at the time). A few weeks after this, as the meds kicked in, I was able to withstand her abuse even better, and began to push Plan B even harder. I refused to have Christmas with the kids together, nor to go with her to her parents with the kids (she had suggested this...all the while, stating that I have to understand that even though we are going as a family, it didnt mean we were working on the relationship). I was drawing boundaries...and setting the terms of my part of our relationship

5 weeks later, she was at my house wanting to talk Just the week before, the OM had asked her why she hadnt divorced me yet...that she had had over a year and a half to do so and she hadnt done anything. The answer? She NEVER wanted to be divorced. She couldnt stand the situation as it existed, and thus entered into an affair. once in the affair, she couldnt stand it as it existed, except when I was being played the villain. At first, when I improved, she couldnt do that anymore. But then she played me as the spineless wimp. Plan B left her nowhere to hide. At that point, all of her problems were HER problems.

I think it is Dobson that says you have to create a crisis. WSs are notorious for wanting to remain on the fence. My wife's OM saw it. I saw it. Plan A initially creates a crisis because the "evil" person they ade you out to be is no longer true. And now, their reason for being where they are no longer exists. But, if not followed by Plan B, they get a new excuse of not wanting to be with someone that doesnt stand up for themselves, that doesnt have boundaries.

My wife told me that the biggest reason she came back was "You stood up to me." Q...that was Plan B. Plan A allows the WS to know that IF they come back, things will be different. Plan B allows the WS to understand that there are limits to what they are doing, and that the good things they have seen, may be sliiping out of their reach.

I know you arent religious, but let me answer one part of your love argument. Unconditional love by God, or anyone. God loves us unconditionally. That is the nature of the Christian God. Does that mean He doesn't set ultimatums, draw boundaries, set conditions? Does that mean that He doesn't discipline? Let's take it to parents We supposedly love our kids unconditionally. Does that mean we don't set boundaries? Does that mean we don't discipline? Does that mean that if one of our kids is abusing drugs and causing havoc in the house, that we wont use "tough love" and create a crisis in order to get them moving in the right direction? Of course, the answer to these questions is "of course."

We know that Mortarman loves Mrs. MM unconditionally (or as much as I can!). We know Q loves Mrs. Q the same way. But your wife, who has seen the changes in you, is riding the fence. She has NO REASON to get off the fence. Actions have consequences. So does inaction. Both of you are inactive…holding your ground.

Q…time to create a crisis…in love. Unconditional love demands that you don't leave your wife where she is at. She needs YOUR help getting off that fence. I didn't want to do it. But once I did, she could not remain where she was. And now it has been a month since my wife has been home and contact with the OM has ceased. And we are getting closer everyday.

Honestly think about this Q. If you love your wife (which I know you do!), you cannot allow her to sit on that fence any longer. You need to help her. And the only way to do that, I'm afraid, is to create that crisis which will make her make a decision. Not based on coercion But based on a new found respect for Q.

In His arms.

<small>[ April 28, 2003, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

Q,

You said a lot of things I feel the need to respond to. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My apologies up front to all who have posted to me here. And to all I have posted to over the past 15 months. I'm still rather angry at myself for being in this position after all this time. I feel like a chump, and I'm tired of feeling like one. I will answer JL's questions and try to make a few clarification comments, then I plan to get off here for a while and figure my $h!+ out, what I plan to do.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, Q my apologies to you my friend. I did a very poor job of articulating what I really was trying to convery. Very probably because the issue of "love" is so complex and personal, whether it is conditional or unconditional. With your permission I would like to take a crack at clearing up what I said.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JL:

"So let me ask you a few questions."

'No' to all your questions.

"If the answer is no to all or most of those questions, then I think the idea of unconditional love is seriously flawed and must be reexamined. Such a person should not be given unconditional love because they wouldn't appreciate the gift and would indeed squander it if not destroy it."

Um, JL. This is absurd. Does your God refuse to give her love to her creations because of their bad behavior?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, my God doesn't. And I think that is the point. In my mind you are trying to accomplish two different objectives: giving your W unconditional love,and yet also address the issues of the marriage and receive love from her. I am not sure they are mutually exclusive, but I do think these objectives are not the same. SC has achieved a very admirable state in his relationship with is soon to be exW. You are trying not to have an exW.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Okay, I'm not God, and I don't apply unconditional love "perfectly". The problem isn't that my W doesn't deserve my unconditional love, the problem is that people seem to think that I can't separate unconditional love from romantic love, and that I'm applying unconditional love to get my W to do something. I'm not. I very definitely AM placing conditions on my romantic feelings that I give to my W that, if not reciprocated (either because she can't, won't, or shouldn't), I will cease to have reason to give her. But, like SC, I hope to be able to love my W as she has chosen to be, even if we DV and never reconcile. I don't want to feel bitterness and resentment toward her for the rest of my life, as we interact for our kids and future grandkids.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Got no problem with this as I stated above. In fact you are doing an admirable job. But, my concern is not that you are confused but that she is confused. Hence my statements below.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"My feeling is that your W deserves AT BEST conditional love from you. THat is all she has earned at this point. Further, she cannot tell the difference between the two."

No, she can't. Most people can't. I can't much of the time.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This was my feeble attempt to get you to focus on your two goals separately. Not very well said I am afraid, and shows a bit of frustration on my part with your W, although I don't know her. I do know what you have done and are doing to try and save this marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"So whether you believe in unconditional love or not, I know you do, the issue is who deserves such a gift? And who deserves love based on their actions?"

Answer: Everybody deserves unconditional love. Even RM, unfortunately. I'm not capable of loving him unconditionally, though. I can muster a speck of respect if he performs one simple act: Break off all contact with my W for the rest of his life. Nothing less will impress me whatsoever. Love based on actions? This is conditional love, whatever "love" it is. Since the only other kind of love I can imagine feeling for my W is romantic love, I'd say yeah, I get your point. She may not deserve my romantic love.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good, but my point was actually a bit different. It was to get you so see, your objectives in a different light. This word "love" is a bear isn't it. It can mean so many things to people. The issue isn't that she doesn't "deserve" you romantic love. My point is that you distinguish between the two which apparently you really are. I wish I could be more profound and really help, but alas I cannot not. I am sorry. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"It is, as always, your call. You two are playing a very dangerous game right now. She adhering to her "right" to continue to talk to this man because he is part of her. And you adhering to the concept of unconditional love, all the while thinking of divorce."

I don't understand this statement at all.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hopefully you do now. Perhaps it was/is my confusion, but I think that unconditional love is a different issue from the viability of your marriage. And when you acheive the state of giving unconditional love, it won't help you save your marriage, only tolerate what has happened. So I guess I am saying (rightly or wrongly), if your plan is to give her unconditional love, it won't sway here. If her plan is to exercise her "right" to stay in contact with OM it won't sway you either. Something has to change. Have I confused this issue even more? Probably, sorry.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Personally, I don't care much for the positions you two have taken on the issue of your marriage. It allows for very little flexibility on either of your parts. Her's offers you little or no respect for what you have done and do."

I agree.

"Your's presupposes that she is incapable of earning your love so you must give it to her "unconditionally" with the condition that you will divorce her if she doesn't get her act together."

This is incorrect, and based on a confusing mixture of romantic (conditional) and unconditional love. They don't mix. And at the moment, I "feel" like DVing her if she doesn't get her act together, but intellectually, I agree with BR, that I haven't "earned" a DV. I remain frustrated, bitter and angry.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree whole heartedly that they don't mix, but you have focused on the unconditional love aspect alot and decided based on Harley's view of unconditional love, that his approach won't work. So at the least it is being mixed in your evaluation process even if you don't mix the two in your thinking. That is what I am getting from the post. I may be wrong. Heck, Q you know the odds are high I am wrong. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Cause if I really know what I was doing, I'd have my own website and be setting people straight right, left, and center. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Q, it is time for a serious reevaluation of your position on things, your goals, and what you are willing to do to acheive them. A serious mission planning meeting is required here. That is my thought on the matter."

I agree, and will consider what I can/should do.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You can do no more, than that: your best.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

SC:

"You need to find yourself, Q. Who you are, what makes you happy, fulfilled, love."

Most definitely. I believe I've made large strides in that area, particularly in the past few months. I think you'd agree. I won't pretend that I don't have a few megaparsecs of growth to do, though.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just do your best to make sure your crossection for success is more than a barn-megaparsec. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> (roughly 3 cm^2)

Q, I really wish I could offer you some good advice. I am sorry that I cannot.

Hang in there OK?

JL

~Q~

I am going to be taking some time off work THURSDAY and FRIDAY and SATURDAY to work a school carnival. I will have some free time while I'm there. Are you interested in coming to a school carnival? You could meet me, and Mr. Pepper there, and I would like to sit down and have a talk to you in person. (bold talk for a one-eyed fat man).... (from True Grit).

I may be able to draw more from you and your situation in person ... and, if not, it's a really fun carnival!

Give me an email or a call. (I used to have your work email, but I forgot which file it went into)

Pepper