I don't know what to say, so I am not going to try to come up with anything. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Just to let you know, I am here.

(((Q)))

Susan

I had this well thought out yesterday...but I slept on it and now my brain is all flushed out again!!

But I'll try.

When H and I were divorcing, one common theme between us was the stubborn unwillingness to give up our ideas of what our view of marriage was and what that meant for what each parties actions should be (in our opinion).

My H felt that he shouldn't have to "fight" for our marriage...that he didn't want to have anyone as a spouse that didn't want to be with him. And because of that he just went along with whatever was happening and didn't DO much of anything.

I was the WS, so OF COURSE I felt that my H should do everything to MAKE me happy and should make up for the years of mistreatment I'd recieved (embarassing, but truly how I felt). I wanted ACTION ACTION ACTION. My H's inaction fed in to my feeling of being unloved. My H is a VERY active individual...a very hard worker. And he puts forth lots of action for his farm. I wanted that for our marriage.

Ok...fast forward a few years.

My H's idea of wanting a partner to just want to be with him is fine...except that with his poor communication skills he never really said everything that he meant. He WANTED us to stay together, he DID love me, he DID want to make the marriage work and was willing to make changes. I didn't hear any of that and he never said it. I was angry, hurt, prideful and jumping fence whenever convenient (sound familiar?) and from where I sat it looked like hubby was going to continue to take an inactive role in our marriage.

My idea of marriage was typical WSish, and movie based. I truly didn't see where I'D need to make any changes...it was all his problem. Needless to say I've dropped that idealistic falicy of a notion.

Now I realize that your unconditional love theory is not as distorted as my WS notions of marriage. But the point I was trying to make was that the biggest obstacle for us was not necessarily the fact that we had different ideas of marriage, but that we didn't understand the other persons idea of marriage and the fact that OURS might just not fit for them!

I don't think your WS can fathom your theory of unconditional love. You can play it out before her eyes and it will filter in to you looking weak and unwilling to take a stand for the marriage. It leaves the control at her hands, which is what she's sick of having, no matter how much she fights for it. It's exactly how I felt. So no matter how "right" you think your theory is...no matter how right it is for YOU...it seems to me to be the wrong thing for your marriage AT THIS TIME.

My husband dropped his idea that I should just love him and he did some work for the marriage...he did the best he could to learn the things I like, even though they weren't exactly what I had in mind. I learned to quit creating expectations of him and to let him know that I DO want to be with him and that I appreciate his efforts. We both still slip sometimes...sometimes I still just want him to read my mind and GET A CLUE, because it all seems so simple to me. And then my new inner voice tells me to shut up and quit being childish. And I know hubbby would love it if he could just change the oil and grease the marital wheel every 3000 miles or so, instead of having to figure out when to buy flowers and what types of gifts I might like on a regular basis. But he does his best, and so do I.

Your theory may work for you AND your wife if you ever become a team again. I just don't think it's going to get you anywhere but divorced right now.

And I understand your adamance that Plan B won't work for you. Fine, don't do it then. But one of the reasons I harp on it, is moreso because of your mindset at it, than the act itself. Because you CAN do it, you just WON'T. Just like you CAN stand up to your wife and make boundries, but you just won't. This house is an excuse. A good one...I can see where it adds complication. But life IS complicated, and allowing your wife to use you as a doormat...and allowing HER TO CONTINUE TO SUFFER...is not the right thing to do. It's not a loving thing. It's a selfish thing...because your just avoiding something that would be difficult and uncomfortable. It definatly would be. But then life isn't spiffy now, either, is it? And divorce will just make things worse. Your mindset seems to be that you can't do anything about that...and I fiercly disagree.

Your a scientist...then make a formula. Decide what the problems are...then look at solutions. Not just the ones you think you can do...but ALL the solutions. Then pick out the ones you don't think you can do, and write out solutions for how you CAN do them...no matter how distastful it might seem. Then you'll see that you can in fact find solutions to all the problems. They just might not all be what you WANT to do.

And if you are still adamant about no Plan B, then how about writing out the solutions that occur by doing a Plan B...and figure out another way to get those results without the seperation?? The point is to get the results...if you can get them another way, then fine...show us how! Don't just give up because you've decided the notion doesn't work for you. The idea is the results...get back in to work mode and figure out a different way to get those results that will work for you.

Just a thought. Good luck!

<small>[ April 29, 2003, 09:10 AM: Message edited by: hope4future ]</small>

CSue:

No, I'm in LA. I talked to my W in the middle of the night when we both woke up. About a lot of things, but among them was my desire to resume counseling. I'd like her to participate, too, if she's interested. She's NOT interested in an MB counselor, though.

We covered a lot of ground during the discussion, and I'll try to hit the high points over the day as I think of them and respond to others' posts.

Not out of the woods yet, by any means, but we ARE communicating better than before.

-Qfwfq

ba109:

"What I see is her telling you that this man will be a part of her life whether you like it or not and to just get used to it."

Well, we talked about this last night, and no, she doesn't intend to keep him in her life. She doesn't think she can have even a friendship with him after this. Doesn't mean she wants to or she's necessarily doing this for me, though I think she probably is, at least subconsciously.

"She seems to be in total control of your situation."

She does seem to be in control. She isn't, though. Not even of herself. She certainly tries to be in control of everything. I told her this last night. She was frustrated as heck when the fire happened and then I found there emails 3 months later. She said she had it "all planned out" what she was going to do, and now everything is out of her control. I told her that's a good thing. That we can't control others, the past, or even the future. We can only control ourselves now. This was discussed along with "giving up" versus "letting go." Giving up is really not an option, because it's not a solution, though we all feel like it sometimes. Letting go leads to solutions. (Bramblerose, I'm working to be able to "earn a DV" whether I get one or not! ;o))

"She knows you will tolerate her actions because of your UL for her."

No, she knows I'll tolerate her actions because I'm typical of BSs in these situations. Has nothing whatsoever to do with ulove.

"I think it's absurd to cling onto the concept of UL if it means permitting someone to control your life and happiness. IMHO she has 100% control over yours."

Hm. This is really impossible, though it sure may seem like it. I haven't "given" her control, though I may have relinquished self-control by waffling for 15 months. Again, nothing to do with ulove.

"Until the time comes that you can confidently stand on your own two feet and brave the consequences of a Plan B with minimal contact she has no incentive to change a thing."

Agreed, though what I do may not resemble plan B all that much.

"Q, don't get down on yourself, just try to stop spinning your wheels. Good luck to you."

Thank you.
-Qfwfq

dinotopia:

Wow, the differences in how we conceive of ulove are amazing! I agree with a lot of the gist of what you're saying, but I don't think that there's any reason for concern about my "belief" in ulove being behind my "wheel-spinning". It's not.

But thanks for your thoughts!
-Qfwfq

MoiNouvelle:

"I think unconditional love does not mean being a door mat. Jesus is the key to unconditional love and he never allowed others to manipulate, lie or break God's laws. He stood firm with the religious rulers of the day but he still was able to show love and compation. "

Bingo. Jesus could be tough when he needed to be. Like raising a ruckus in the temple with the money-changers.

No, uloving is NOT being a doormat.

-Qfwfq

h4f:

Good thoughts!!!

"When H and I were divorcing, one common theme between us was the stubborn unwillingness to give up our ideas of what our view of marriage was and what that meant for what each parties actions should be (in our opinion)."

Like my W and I trying to control what each other think. "Do you want to be right or married?" And I'd insist "Married!" But I had no idea how to get back to that state, because I would always try to convince my W that her past behaviors and rationalizations were WRONG (and thus, I'm right!). Doesn't matter if it's absolutely true. She has to come to that conclusion herself, if she can.

"My H felt that he shouldn't have to "fight" for our marriage...that he didn't want to have anyone as a spouse that didn't want to be with him. And because of that he just went along with whatever was happening and didn't DO much of anything."

I think I'm not quite like that. I feel like I've been fighting pretty hard for the past 15 months. Sometimes harder than others, and sometimes just "being nice" and waiting... But even when I've probably been going along and not doing much of anything, I have KNOWN that without properly "processing" the past, we'll risk repeating our mistakes. So, total "complacency" wasn't ever going to happen. ...though it's been 15 months!

"My H's idea of wanting a partner to just want to be with him is fine...except that with his poor communication skills he never really said everything that he meant."

I didn't know I had a brother!!! ;o)

"He WANTED us to stay together, he DID love me, he DID want to make the marriage work and was willing to make changes. I didn't hear any of that and he never said it. I was angry, hurt, prideful and jumping fence whenever convenient (sound familiar?) and from where I sat it looked like hubby was going to continue to take an inactive role in our marriage."

I guess it's possible that my W has felt the same way about me all this time. She's said so about the PAST, but not said much about my behavior now, other than to ask "why did it take this long" (2long?).

"My idea of marriage was typical WSish, and movie based. I truly didn't see where I'D need to make any changes...it was all his problem. Needless to say I've dropped that idealistic falicy of a notion."

I don't think my W's view is similar to yours, but I could be wrong. I think she'd be happy with HER CONCEPT of an open M, or a lifestyle where she could have more than one partner in different localles. But that's WS speak, or my W's brand of it. I don't think she'd like it much if she ever lived it (really, not just a secret A on the side).

"Now I realize that your unconditional love theory is not as distorted as my WS notions of marriage. But the point I was trying to make was that the biggest obstacle for us was not necessarily the fact that we had different ideas of marriage, but that we didn't understand the other persons idea of marriage and the fact that OURS might just not fit for them!"

Good points. I think we've got a lot of communicating to do in order to understand what we believe M to be. My W still insists she never wanted to be M'd, and either can't accept that this view is a rationalization to keep her from having to face the consequences of her choices, or it's true. If the former, then I've got something to "work" with. If the latter, though, I'd just as soon let someone else deal with it.

"I don't think your WS can fathom your theory of unconditional love. You can play it out before her eyes and it will filter in to you looking weak and unwilling to take a stand for the marriage. It leaves the control at her hands, which is what she's sick of having, no matter how much she fights for it. It's exactly how I felt. So no matter how "right" you think your theory is...no matter how right it is for YOU...it seems to me to be the wrong thing for your marriage AT THIS TIME."

Eloquently stated. But again, I'm not using ulove as a substitute for plan A. Like the Jesus example above. I'm really still struggling to figure out what I WILL use, be it MB methods or something else (like Schnarch's concepts, which my W is interested in learning more about).

"My husband dropped his idea that I should just love him and he did some work for the marriage...he did the best he could to learn the things I like, even though they weren't exactly what I had in mind."

Boy, I've been trying to meet my W's ENs for YEARS. We talked about this over the weekend. But IMHO, because she was already embroiled in her A, nothing I did was ever enough. And you should see me! I spend just about every weekend working on things with her or for her. Remodelling rooms, fixing things around her house out of state, taking time off work and going to her research property with her, making maps for her, taking and processing images for her... Most of the time, up until about 3 years ago at least, I was angry while I was doing these things, because it felt like I was busting my @$$ with no thanks, and certainly no help with my interests, just contempt. That started to change about 3 years ago, possibly because it was just before the A started up again, and so we were enjoying each others' company better, or so I thought. She must have gotten better at hiding her feelings, because she resumed her A such that I was pretty much baffled when she'd occasionally say things like "I want a DV for our 25th anniversary" - boy, that was out of the blue! Lately, even before D-day, I've been enjoying the things we do together, even when they're exhausting. And yet she still wants "her turn" to do what she's always wanted to do. So do I, but in moderation, I guess. Don't know if we can POJA a happy future or not, but I will try.

"I learned to quit creating expectations of him and to let him know that I DO want to be with him and that I appreciate his efforts."

My W does this better all the time, too. And I'm getting better at communicating my desires and hurts to her, though I will admit I've got a long ways to go still.

"sometimes I still just want him to read my mind and GET A CLUE, because it all seems so simple to me."

Sounds like my W.

"And I know hubbby would love it if he could just change the oil and grease the marital wheel every 3000 miles or so, instead of having to figure out when to buy flowers and what types of gifts I might like on a regular basis. But he does his best, and so do I."

Like what I said to my W the other day: This is me. This is it. I will keep trying. But if she can't "trust" me even now, ??

"Your theory may work for you AND your wife if you ever become a team again. I just don't think it's going to get you anywhere but divorced right now."

I think this applies to my "method" to this point, not necessarily ulove at all. Why does it seem so odd to me that so many people seem to think I'm trying to force an outcome using ulove? Again, at worst, I'm waiting for 2long in between stating my boundaries, and maybe I haven't ever "enforced" them. But I probably just need to find my "method" of enforcing my boundaries, not drop ulove and go with some conditional, ephemeral substitute.

"And I understand your adamance that Plan B won't work for you. Fine, don't do it then. But one of the reasons I harp on it, is moreso because of your mindset at it, than the act itself. Because you CAN do it, you just WON'T. Just like you CAN stand up to your wife and make boundries, but you just won't. This house is an excuse. A good one...I can see where it adds complication. But life IS complicated, and allowing your wife to use you as a doormat...and allowing HER TO CONTINUE TO SUFFER...is not the right thing to do. It's not a loving thing. It's a selfish thing...because your just avoiding something that would be difficult and uncomfortable. It definatly would be. But then life isn't spiffy now, either, is it? And divorce will just make things worse. Your mindset seems to be that you can't do anything about that...and I fiercly disagree."

A lot to think about here. Believe me, I don't want to live like this for a minute longer than I have to. And that may be weeks or months. It won't be years. I've got too much to worry about at work coming up in the next several months that I'm going to be neglectful of if I'm living like this then. So I take your advice to heart. I'm just not sure what I'm going to do with it at this point.

"Your a scientist...then make a formula. Decide what the problems are...then look at solutions. Not just the ones you think you can do...but ALL the solutions. Then pick out the ones you don't think you can do, and write out solutions for how you CAN do them...no matter how distastful it might seem. Then you'll see that you can in fact find solutions to all the problems. They just might not all be what you WANT to do."

This is a good idea. I will try this out.

"And if you are still adamant about no Plan B, then how about writing out the solutions that occur by doing a Plan B...and figure out another way to get those results without the seperation?? The point is to get the results...if you can get them another way, then fine...show us how! Don't just give up because you've decided the notion doesn't work for you. The idea is the results...get back in to work mode and figure out a different way to get those results that will work for you."

I will try this too.

Thanks!
-Qfwfq

Hi Q:

A long time lurker of your posts and a somtimes poster here. Sorry you are struggling so.

Ah to UL or not to UL that is the question!!

Either way, me thinks it is irrelevant to your situation. Of course you can love and enjoy your W exactly as she is. You must decided for yourself if the requirements you have to be married to person can be met by your W.

Are the feelings and views she expresses now sacrosanct or influenced by the A or her own self image and thus subject to change or her base views? I think you have communicated clearly what you need in a marriage.

This is where some kind of pressure PB or enforcement of your stated boundaries (with time line given) comes into play. To allow you to get the answer you need to plan your own life. This is not about UL or not UL it is fairness and mutual respect between people IMVHO.

It all does boil down to you Q what is your time frame for these answers?

Sorry if I rambled between office interruptions.

All my best Q

Jack

wmiw:

Hello!

"Ah to UL or not to UL that is the question!!

Either way, me thinks it is irrelevant to your situation."

Agreed! It just helps me determine how we interact for the rest of our lives, particularly different than "clove" if we DV.

"Of course you can love and enjoy your W exactly as she is. You must decided for yourself if the requirements you have to be married to person can be met by your W."

At the moment, they can't. But I got enough clues talking to her last night that I think it's clear that they can. She just has, IMHO, a very immature understanding of what M requires of M'd people.

"Are the feelings and views she expresses now sacrosanct or influenced by the A or her own self image and thus subject to change or her base views?"

Not sacrosanct, though it has seemed like that for a while. Clearly influenced by the A AND her own self image. Whether she can change those views markedly or sufficiently to enable us to have a mutually rewarding M, I don't yet know. I intend to find out.

"This is where some kind of pressure PB or enforcement of your stated boundaries (with time line given) comes into play. To allow you to get the answer you need to plan your own life. This is not about UL or not UL it is fairness and mutual respect between people IMVHO."

Very definitely. I need some kind of plan. Communication at the depth we're doing it might work, but if it doesn't, I will need a backup. It probably won't be fair to simply decide it's not going to work and DV. Our kids need some consideration (though my D is out on her own and my son could be in a few years).

"It all does boil down to you Q what is your time frame for these answers?"

Haven't put a deadline on them per-se, but I'm thinking like July.

-Qfwfq

Hi Q:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Agreed! It just helps me determine how we interact for the rest of our lives, particularly different than "clove" if we DV.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Amen whether using UL or not a mutual respect and caring in dealing with DV/children issues is a healthly plus.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> At the moment, they can't. But I got enough clues talking to her last night that I think it's clear that they can. She just has, IMHO, a very immature understanding of what M requires of M'd people.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah didn't we all until forced to look at it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Very definitely. I need some kind of plan. Communication at the depth we're doing it might work, but if it doesn't, I will need a backup. It probably won't be fair to simply decide it's not going to work and DV. Our kids need some consideration (though my D is out on her own and my son could be in a few years).
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is what Harley had in mind with PB.

Q, you have shown yourself as a caring thoughful man. My gut tells me that you and your W are basically very compatible and you are dealing with personality and FOO issues that make it very difficult for your W to change course. Again making a plan B type tool helpful.

One thing I am confident of and that is you will choose a path that is best for all.

Sorry I can't be more helpful.

All my best

Jack

<small>[ April 29, 2003, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: willmakeitwork ]</small>

Mr. Qfwfq,

What a pleasant morning it is here where I live. I sit here with the outside door to my office open enjoying the early morning air. I have been doing some thinking about you ( but I don't think I broke or strained anything.)

Once I said you have a hard edge inside down deep, and you can be coaxed but not pushed. I see that come back in some of your posts on this thread, and so I wonder about some of the things that have been said.

I believe that you feel your marriage must be making progress - abet slow. You are a man of action, and if you felt no hope with what you are doing, and how she reacts, you would be doing something different. I can't see that you have ever been content to sit and do nothing. You like to learn, you like to grow, you like to do things. In my mind, you have to see some kind of progress or you would have already made changes.

We push you to talk more, and change the status quo, and sometimes you agree with us, but your actions show me that you don't always agree with us in your heart even though on the surface it sounds good.

I suspect that's not all of it. I suspect that you are more comfortable with a strained M than with no M at all. You know your W much better than we do and you must feel that slow progress is much better than D.

Since we all care about you, we want things to be fixed right now, but it seldom happens that way. You already know that.

The replies you get are very valuable even if you disagree with them. They conflict? Well, in your case, thinking is good because you are smart enough to look at all the ideas and choose a good course through the minefield.

You have a big heart ( in fact, it would have to be big,) I think you generally make the right choices ( just stay away from plan B without a letter.) When you are thinking about things after one of those big blowouts, (after you calm down enough to think,) remember that even good marriages have blowouts. Sometimes you get pushed to do drastic things, but you think about it, and you take all that has happened and analyze it again and you choose to go on. I think you are good at analyzing data, and I think you make very good choices.

I don't want you to doubt yourself. I don't want to have you think you are "off" and that for some reason you can't think any more.

If in the end this doesn't work, it won't be because you weren't smart enough, or because you made a wrong choice. It will be because she was called but she wouldn't come.

Have some faith.

SS

<small>[ April 30, 2003, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

SS:

Thanks. Interesting perspective on all this.

Do I think we're making progress? Today (my thinking, that is)? Yeah. Is it "enough" to satisfy me? Well, increasingly, I would have to say no. Will I deploy plan B? Probably not, because I believe that the progress we do make is rooted in our increasing ability to communicate how we both feel. She's not "wearing me down" to placate her desire to keep in contact with RM. She knows I won't live with her under those conditions, but that I would wish her well if she chooses to do so. But I also realize that she won't change unless she's given a reason to change, and ultimately telling her I won't tolerate this kind of M won't matter much if I don't do something about it if she chooses to string this on indefinitely.

We're "back" to the way we've been getting along for a while now. Less hand holding and snuggling perhaps, but clearly there's affection (she gave me a couple big hugs this am before I left). She sent a resume to a company in Nevada, "just to see whether they'd be interested." If she wants to quit this job, I'd prefer she simply "retire" and work on her research project. I could support us. I'm resigned that if she does take a job out of state without us POJAing a marital recovery plan, I will be interested in a permanent separation. I hope by that time, if it comes to that, I will have "earned" a DV. I haven't yet. But in all probability, this is just another means for her to distract herself from facing her problems. At least she's still going to her IC (next one tomorrow), though they are so infrequent it's annoying (last was about 3 weeks ago).

I am hoping to tear myself away from work for a few hours tomorrow myself and meet with the Peppers. I admire Pepper's accomplishments in saving her own M, her advice to everyone on here, and would perhaps dare to aspire to become as securely "differentiated", preferably WITH my W, in the not-too-distant future. I think my M is recoverable, but it might not be. In any case, the responsibility for action is within myself WITH myself. That, and POJA with my W about our M over the coming months, will determine whether we continue on this journey together or apart.

-Qfwfq

SS:

Also:

"I suspect that's not all of it. I suspect that you are more comfortable with a strained M than with no M at all. You know your W much better than we do and you must feel that slow progress is much better than D."

I have been more comfortable with a strained M all this time, haven't I? Fear. Where's that fear now? It's getting much less massive and less capable of overshadowing my thinking all the time. What will that mean, long term? Well, that's why I think this time when I contemplate DV as a possible outcome (preceded by some trial plan of some sort), the prospect isn't so frightening. I need to end this limbo crap. For all of us.

-Qfwfq

BTW,
I am not saying your plan can't or won't change. I just think that when it's time, you will make changes, and want you to know that I trust your ability to do so.

I think talking to Pep will be good for you. Check her close for 2x4's as you approach the booth.

SS

SS:

Thank you.

I know for a fact that Pepper has a nearby source for long stemmed 2x4s! I will be careful! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

-Qfwfq

Also:
( can I do an also too? )

It's often when the fear goes away, and the WS realizes you are calm, improved, not afraid, and that you may leave that they discover they don't want you to leave. When you met, I suspect you were not afraid. Didn't you have the world by the tail, and you knew it?

Don't you still? Well, really, don't you?

SS

<small>[ April 30, 2003, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

SS:

"Also:
( can I do an also too? )"

Yes, you can do an also, too. You can even do a too, too. You can even WEAR a tutu.

Or, as ol' 2long might put it: "Yes, you can do an also, 2. You can even do a 2, 2. You can even WEAR a 22." But it loses something in the translation, I think...

"When you met, I suspect you were not afraid."

ol' Qfwfq was not afraid.

"Didn't you have the world by the tail, and you knew it?"

Yes. I think I've felt this way, though maybe not as strongly, a couple times in the past, 2. I mean, too. The feeling is staying with me longer now, though.

"Don't you still? Well, really, don't you?"

Yep.

-Qfwfq

You can even WEAR a tutu.

Hmmmm, I don't think you thought this one through very well. Maybe I gave you too much credit.

You may be getting a call from homeland security. People who encourage acts of terror should expect to be under scrutiny.

SS

~Q~

Don't be afraid .... I only use cyber 2X4's.... I am really kind and gentle .... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I hope my email helped.

Pepper:

Yep. The email helped.

Boy, I've got a lot of things running through my mind right now. I definitely don't believe that "letting the contact end when the project's done" in October, probably a lot later, is going to fly with me. I don't think this is impatience, either. More, it's time to take some control over this. For me and our family.

later edit: By taking control, I don't mean I will decide for my W what to do. I need to negotiate with her.

-Qfwfq

<small>[ April 30, 2003, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>