Sometimes I think I've invented a fictitious set of personality traits for my H to make myself feel better about having cheated on him, and the fact that here I am, living by myself, and on the verge of divorce. It makes me feel better to focus on all the negative aspects of him.

I feel like I did the last time I gave up on my boundaries and went running into my H's arms and bed. I feel desperate to show him that I love him, and that I'm willing to meet his needs, and do what he is comfortable with for now.

He called me last night after midnight. I didn't answer. He called tonight, early evening, I was out. He called again a bit later, we just talked.

Grand surprise, he invited me over for the night. He did invite me in a kind and nice tone, none of that old "wanna f*&%" stuff from months ago.

I hemmed and hawed, and since I was feeling pretty strong tonight, I said something like, "If you ever want to do something that’s hanging out but not hiding out, call me okay?" Then he apologized for calling, and politely ended the call.

Then he called back a couple minutes later. He pointed out how hard it is for him to get the courage to call me, to go out on a limb and get rejected, how much it hurts his pride for him to call me, and how it makes him feel inferior to be calling me, and how I have all the power. He called me callous again. He told me I wasn't capable of being loving.

He said you know what kind of day I had? I had to sell my dad's car today. He said someday your dad will die, likely before your mom and then maybe you'll understand.

I asked him about why he isn't comfortable doing things with me other than hiding out in the house or my apt., only on weeknights, he said he doesn't like to go out at all anymore, except maybe with his brothers now and again. He said he's like my mom but 10 times worse now. (She never goes out or does anything with anyone but my dad, for the most part.)

He asked me why it disgusts me that he finds me sexually attractive. I told him that wasn't the case, that I just want more than that. He said I should be happy to know that he finds me so attractive, and that he'll likely never find another woman as attractive as me.

If setting and maintaining my boundaries is supposed to make me feel better, why am I crying right now?

He repeated a few times that I'm one month away from a divorce, do i realize that? I said yes I did of course. He also said whoever I'm getting advice from, they're giving me the wrong advice.

He was so honest and sincere on the phone. I am so tempted to go over there right now.

He also said howcome I make him feel like the bad guy all the time?

Am I some sort of power-trip b@$%# actually? Have I been twisting things around in my posts here to get sympathy and to make myself feel justified?

I just put myself back into the grovelling position somehow. Or did he put me there? I feel like I really am a selfish, callous person, expecting him to do what I want, when he's going through so much. You should have heard the pain and frustration in his voice.

I have this impending feeling that I really messed up my chances tonight. He approached me in a kind and sincere manner, and I threw up my boundaries,, and pushed him away, and made him think I don't know how to love him.

The worst thing right now is that I feel like begging him to let me stay the night now. I don't want to be seen as callous, cold and unloving. I guess maybe he's really good at manipulating me?

I don't know what to do. My heart says go to him. My psychobabble mental dialogue says maintain your boundaries Jen, he'll come to you eventually.

I don't want to end up divorced. I don't want him to feel unloved by me. The thing he said tonight that hurt the most was that he couldn't believe that after being with him for 12 years I still didn't know how to love him.

Help! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> What do I do?

Jen <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

<small>[ April 29, 2003, 11:53 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

I'm so useless. I'm a pawn. I called him back and told him I hated to hear him so upset, to hear him hurting so much. Then I asked if I could still come over for the night. Then he said this is what you're doing, you're going to wear --- (a favorite item of his) and come over now. He sounded all commanding and controlling. A definite turn-off.

I HATE MY LIFE. I feel so darn trapped. Now I have to go b/c I said I would, but after that tone of voice he used.....

Or am I useless if I try to cater to my hurting H?

So many times, I have two or three voices in my head. My voice (the Jen that loves him more than anything, and wants her life back), my other voice (the strong, boundary setting Jen, who thinks she can be happy alone), and then the MB voice of reason that tells me to keep him guessing, make him come to me, not to go spend the night there, not to pursue him, etc.

Sometimes I wonder if I'd have better instincts if I'd never gotten advice from anyone, counsellor, friends or MB people. But how can that be?

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Was he just nice to me to get what he wants?

You know why I have to go? I have to go just in case this makes the difference, in case this is a step towards getting him to recommit to our marriage. Otherwise I'd forever worry if this one night would've made the difference.

Say a prayer for me that things go well.

Jen, the desperate fool (just thought I'd identify which voice is strongest tonight)

Jen,
IF YOU HAVEN'T GONE, PLEASE DON'T GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am worried about you- he does NOT sound like he has been nice at all in this post. I don't know where you see him being nice, I think it is because you love him so you don't see clearly, and i know I am the same in my situation sometimes. But all he has done is control you- by saying, this is what you are going to do- made you feel bad about your boundaries because you want a relationship/friendship/conversation/AND sexual partner, not just the latter.... He sounds like he is just making you feel like you should be happy that he finds you so attractive. Well, I think there are other men who would respect you AND find you attractive- I don't see any respect to you from him. And if tonight is a make or break deal on your divorce- then you are walking a very thin line, and you are never going to win like that.......Be strong- LOVE yourself- give yourself more credit and worth. I am going to say a prayer for you, I hope you haven't gone, and if you have, I am going to pray for the Lord to protect you.

And Jen,
he sounds like he is making you feel guilty- like you have all the power, like you should feel guilty for his dad dying- yes, his dad dying was terrible, but you can't bring him back and you can't keep making it up to him that he is gone. I know that it isn't the same thing, but my WH cheated on me right when I was taking care of my grandmother dying of cancer. I know now, after time, that he was so in his fog that he didn't realize what he was doing and that she was really going to die then...My wh is gone but even if he wasn't, I can't make him feel guilty for the rest of his life about not being there when she died. Restoring marriages is about dealing with the hurt pain and anger, and moving past it- not threatening, demeaning, and condescending your mate....and I have said this many many times, you cheated on him with his BF and that stinks really bad and I think it would be hard for me to get past that- however, he is having drinks with strange women at all hours of the night and treating you like crap......it sounds like you are the Former REMORSEFUL WS and he is the "Using his wife to make her feel guilty while he cheats" spouse......it is getting a little crazy and I am afraid you are letting him take away your self-respect and you can't let him!!!!!! Please write me as soon as possible...let me know you are ok.

Jen

Adgirl said it really well. I hope you didn't go. He has manipulated you, and as soon as you collapse and give in, he becomes controlling "Wear that, and get yourself over here quick, because I want you now"

I'm sorry, irrespective of him having a hard day (I'm really sorry for the loss of his father, but how long will he be able to use this for) he has no right to use you in this fashion. Why does he not call you when he's had a good day?

I hope you didn't go Jen, I'm not sure about the 1 month thing - has he actually filed for DV then? I don't remember seeing that.

Take care Jen
Lisa

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>Was he just nice to me to get what he wants?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen,
short answer, yes. Your H definately knows which buttons to push to make you feel the way he wants you to feel. It's manipulation, plain and simple. Be strong. Don't fall for it. When he is ready for real recovery, he won't be calling you at midnight, then telling you what to wear.
Michael

Yeah I went. I don't feel as rotten about it now as I did last night. I swear I wish I just hadn't answered the phone, but I can't avoid this forever.
I don't have the nerve to tell him my boundaries, he's a pro at reviving my guilt. He literally makes me feel selfish for setting boundaries.

He knows me well enough to know I'd never be able to set boundaries without getting advice from somewhere. That's why he keeps asking who's giving me advice. I never actually answer that one really.

I just recalled, he mocked me again last night (on the phone) for sending him an email with my thoughts in it. He implied that I shouldn't expect him to send me a reply b/c his life is too difficult right now as it is and he can't handle that too. This came to mind b/c I was thinking I should write him a letter telling him to choose: a) work on this marriage wholeheartedly (including getting together regularly, for dates, not just sleepovers); or b) choose to not see me, and as a result, I guess that's choosing divorce.

But he makes me feel like it's wrong for me to "have all the power" and "call all the shots".

About the 1 month thing, he hasn't filed for Dv, however either one of us actually can file after May 31st, that's the date that we separated last year.

Why am I so weak and easy to manipulate?
I suppose it's because I feel sorry for him?
Or is it because I love him?

Jen

<small>[ April 30, 2003, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Jen ~

My answer is that you are dealing with an alcoholic, among other things. What happened last night was that your husband realized that what he was doing wasn't working (ie he wasn't succeeding in manipulating) so he switched tactics in a really ugly way. He knows your buttons and he used them.

The short answer here is that Jen, last night you went right back to the comfortable dance of a puppet on a string. The difference between you and a puppet is that YOU do have a choice. He can't MAKE you do anything without your own decision to allow it.

You need more help than just here...you need Al-Anon in a bad way <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

((hugs))

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel desperate to show him that I love him, and that I'm willing to meet his needs, and do what he is comfortable with for now.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen,
In the big scheme of things, this is exactly what you would need to do since you are the WS. However, the needs that he has and the things that he expects from you are degrading and unacceptable. He wants to be free to verbally degrade you, emotionally taunt you, and keep you as some dirty little sex secret. Those requests can only come from a sick and cruel individual.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He pointed out how hard it is for him to get the courage to call me, to go out on a limb and get rejected, how much it hurts his pride for him to call me, and how it makes him feel inferior to be calling me, and how I have all the power. He called me callous again. He told me I wasn't capable of being loving.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This man ain't no fool. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> He knew exactly what to say to jerk that emotional chain.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I asked him about why he isn't comfortable doing things with me other than hiding out in the house or my apt., only on weeknights, he said he doesn't like to go out at all anymore, except maybe with his brothers now and again </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is just an excuse. Don't buy into it. He wants to keep you as his little sexual secret and that should be intolerable.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He said I should be happy to know that he finds me so attractive, and that he'll likely never find another woman as attractive as me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Blah..Blah...Blah....babble...babble...babble. Equates with...yes, I will respect you in the morning...No, I won't *&^% in your mouth...and the check is in the mail! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Empty words meant to flatter or appease are all they are.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He repeated a few times that I'm one month away from a divorce, do i realize that? I said yes I did of course. He also said whoever I'm getting advice from, they're giving me the wrong advice. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm...could the advice be wrong because it prevents him from being able to use and abuse you?? Of course he is going to consider anything wrong that does not let him get his way and to be in total control of everything. He is behaving childishly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have this impending feeling that I really messed up my chances tonight </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Messed up your chances at repairing a marriage? Was that even mentioned at all? Was a committed relationship mentioned? I think the only thing that you "messed up" was his plans for a little secret sexual tryst.

If you want to be his dirty little secret then go over there. If you want to be the woman that for some reason he is ashamed to be seen with, go on over there. If you do not want to save and repair the "marriage" go on over there.

Just realize that you will never have anything more with him. He has outlined what he wants from you and if you comply then you are doomed.

JMHO
committed

Why am I so weak and easy to manipulate?

Because you choose to be. You seem to have this pretty well figured out, your H manipulates you cause he can, cause it gets what he wants, control over you. The question is what value can you see in a man who uses people this way. It is who he is, making excuses for him is just plain dumb.

btw, I don't think you are a true ws, I think your H is the wandering spouse by proxy, he manipulated you into that circumstance so as to have more power over you...maybe not a deliberate plan (though I wouldn't put it past him), but certainly using the marital breakdown he created to his advantage.

<small>[ April 30, 2003, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

I know I know I know. I got manipulated and let myself down. I ignored the warning bells in my head.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I hemmed and hawed, and since I was feeling pretty strong tonight, I said something like, "If you ever want to do something that’s hanging out but not hiding out, call me okay?" Then he apologized for calling, and politely ended the call....Then he called back a couple minutes later. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I shouldn't have answered the second call, or subsequent calls. Stupid Jen, stupid Jen, stupid Jen.

Jen

Jen,

I see that you were posting as I was posting to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I swear I wish I just hadn't answered the phone, but I can't avoid this forever.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure you can. It's called PlanB. You made a decision to answer his call last night. PlanB would hold you to NOT answering it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But he makes me feel like it's wrong for me to "have all the power" and "call all the shots". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Never feel wrong for setting your own personal boundaries. You are responsible for yourself...to take care of yourself..and protect yourself. It is NOT wrong. Maybe you have never done it before. It is not too late to start it. It is disturbing to him because he no longer has you as his own personal whipping boy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why am I so weak and easy to manipulate?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is something that you have to work on free and independent of him. It might be best for you to seek IC. You might find yourself doing the same dance again one day, it might just be a different partner.

Work on yourself. Seek help whereever that is and with whomever. You need it now and you most assuredly will need it later in other relationships.

committed

Jen

BR & Committed have given you some fantastic advice. In fact, every time I read your thread, loads of people give you fantastic advice. But that's all it is really, you have to either want to do something with that or not. At the moment, you seem to choose not to, and now you are down on yourself again because of last night.

Jen, after I started Plan B, a week later my H told me that he was sorry if he upset me but he was going to contact a Solicitor (that was mid-Jan). He used that as an excuse to get in touch with me and clearly put some pressure on me. To this day, some 3.5 months later, he still hasn't contacted a Solicitor, and I have had to make the DV decision. I think it is highly unlikely your H will start DV proceedings - let's face it, at the minute he's having too much fun with you - he can use you and abuse you as he pleases. Someone to hurl abuse at in the middle of the night when he's Mr Angry and everything in the world that is wrong is your fault, someone he can just phone up and demand sex from and she turns up wearing what he likes, someone to be his battering ram, someone how accepts the fact that he has other women friendships which are inappropriate, someone at the end of the day he can bully.

Jen, I'm not normally so hard, you know I'm not, but if you don't change this situation, he certainly won't, and it upsets me to see you being used in this way in the name of.... what, love? This isn't love to me, how can it be to you?

Take care of yourself Jen, I really do worry about you and forgive me for being hard, it's probably the last thing you need today.

Chin up

Lisa

The dance will never change until you find the courage to change it. I don't believe anyone said it would be easy or feel good. As I recall, and being a person who LOATHES and AVOIDS change at all costs if possible, the changes H and I made over the course of our situation were the most painful things we've ever faced. The point of having a plan is to keep you focused on why it is that you are staying a course, NO MATTER HOW IT FEELS. Feelings get you in trouble...use your head.

Your hubby used you and won again...and I doubt VERY MUCH that you're any closer to your goal...and with your muchly depleted love bank your probly that much closer to losing your marriage. See, eventually the game ends one way or another...because no one can do this cycle endlessly.

I hope you find some true strength and inner peace, maybe throw in some self worth, and eventually excuse yourself from this cycle of pain. Once you do, although it will be painful at first, you will actually be doing both of you a favor, allowing you both the chance to grow in healthy ways.

And for the record...I lost both of my parents. My mother at age 4.5 and my father almost 10 years ago. I know how it feels to have to sell his car. I admit it hurts. I sat on the courthouse steps and lost it for the first time when I did that. But never did I use it as an excuse to order people around or to berate my spouse. It hurt and I dealt with it. People lose their fathers every day. It happens. Your hubby is using his death in a disgusting way.

Jen,
I'm at work and can't write much right now, but I will later. I have been thinking about you a lot- and please quit calling yourself stupid JEN!! You are not stupid, you are allowing someone else to degrade you, upset you, you are allowing someone else to control your self-esteem and he is doing a dandy job with it. This is no longer an issue of you being a WS. I can't believe I am saying that but I am. This is a situation where your H is not showing any love to you whatsoever, he is only controlling you and manipulating you and using anything and everything, all the while acting like you are the one with all the power. No. That is wrong. That is abusive. Stop the cycle. Please. Remember this- Jesus DIED on the cross for your sins, for my sins, for everyone's sins. He suffered and died because he KNEW what we would do in this life. He knew that we would hurt other people and mess up our lives so he came to save us. He loved us that much!! You have asked God for forgiveness, you have repented of your sin, now stop paying the price that jesus has already paid for you. Live a life filled with grace, not guilt. We are all trying to help you with our advice and that is why your H doesn't like it- because it loses his grip of guilt over you. Please...take care of yourself.

Hello Jen

I don't know lady, it seems very long since you are in this game of giving and taking...

Now I want you to sit down and think... are you making any progress??? I think you are not, and in time u just deteriorate of what's left or your M and YOU. I also want you to sit down and remember your H in the begining of the relationship... he was caring, he looked for you, he was mad about you, he was incredible right? Well now think about how he is this day, not before but this day. Does is he the same man? I bet he isn't and of course you aren't the same women also, you both deteriorated too much in time, BUT do you really want to spend the rest of your life with the man he is today?
Let me put it in this way... A man that manipulates you like a puppet, a man that is not compromised with your feelings, a man that only calls when he is down and want sex... you know... Is that the man you really want?
I'm sorry to tell you Jen but the man you are still in love in in the past, this man is a different one and you are still hooked to the man of the past. I know it happens to me also, but I'm willling to let him go... if he didn't beleive I was the most incredible women on earth then is not worth my time.

I don't know what did you expected from your future and why separating from this man is so hard for you. Your future is only a man or a family? I ask because maybe you think like me that you wanted a family and without this man your future gets mudy in a way. But family I can have WITH another man... get my point?

Anyhow if you feel like chatting at nights feel free to join us for some chat:

http://pub4.ezboard.com/bmarriagebuildersladies

Take good care of you Jen, change only what you can change wich is you...

Matilde,

QUOTE:
I'm sorry to tell you Jen but the man you are still in love in in the past, this man is a different one and you are still hooked to the man of the past. I know it happens to me also, but I'm willling to let him go... if he didn't beleive I was the most incredible women on earth then is not worth my time.
END QUOTE

Thanks for the reminder!!!!!!!

What's my next step then?

Wait for him to contact me, and the next time I flat out tell him my ultimatum again, and stick to it? (Work on this marriage wholeheartedly, be willing to go on dates with me in public, or you won't see me any more, and you can file for Dv.)

Or something else?

I wish I wasn't so easily manipulated. Years of practice I guess.

Jen

Jen,
I don't really know what advice for sure to give you, but I think I would go to Plan B. In the letter. And stick to it. Don't call, don't answer when he calls, nothing, because whenever he talks to you he degrades you and controls you and it just makes you feel worse. So that is my thoughts- anyone else?