Read most of the replies, but not thoroughly! Thanks, bigsis. I love you too! I didn't even remember how long it was before Pa remarried. I had actually forgotten the timing after our BIL died. See how messed up my memory banks have gotten? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I feel resigned as to what I need to do, but my W definitely is confused. No, I don't really want to even re-read those old posts myself. Gadz.

We went to the swap meet today and bought an eastlake chair. I dunno. I suppose that investments like that can be recovered ultimately. She doesn't want to lose the house, not even the second one, so I think it's clear she's not thinking deeply about DV. I am, though. She mentioned something about "the next time we go to Utah." We weren't somewhere I could respond, but I have no intention of going until RM is out of our lives.

-2long.

TMCM:

I responded with almost those exact words. every bit of what you said, I said.

No, she was NOT expecting that reaction from me. She clearly still doesn't know what to make of it.

-2long

Pepper:

"Well .... I guess that means she's not going to take me up that offer to call me on my cell! TELL HER THAT OFFER STANDS! I am, as a matter of fact, a professional in her HMO !"

Damned right I'll tell her!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
-2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long_2take:
TMCM:

I responded with almost those exact words. every bit of what you said, I said.

No, she was NOT expecting that reaction from me. She clearly still doesn't know what to make of it.

-2long</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's probably because she has mentally blocked, to some degree, the seriousness of her betrayal. Remember that a chronic liar eventually starts beleiving his/her own lies.

Good ol' 2long,

I'm relieved to hear you're returning to the old name. It's so much easier to type. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I'm so sorry to hear how things have been going for you and M.

I feel a little like I may actually have some useful insight for you tonight. Perhaps you've been told this before by others, but it's jumping out at me tonight as I read over this thread.

Your W is far too accustomed to having both you and RM in her life. It's become a way of life for her. She does not know how to live without the both of you. So she doesn't leave you for him, and isn't willing to get him out of her life, and wants to keep him at least as a friend.

Your wife is a master of making you feel like you are lucky to have her around, since you supposedly have a bunch of faults, for example:
-"she pointed out that she does love me and shows me that she does by the fact that she's still here" in other non-fog words: "Be thankful for the scraps I'm giving you and don't ask for more."
- "She reiterated that the MB forum, the iloveulove forum, and my visit to the Peppers' was "stupid""
- "She said that my "requirement" for NC was just plain STUPID (yelled it, among other things) and there was no possible way she would do that for me."

She's trying to emotionally manipulate you into thinking you're "stupid" (to use her words) and that you therefore should be thankful that she even stays with you.

What a load of hurtful crap. You are far from stupid. You are one of the wisest people I've met in the last year.

My new wisdom comes from a book I came across this weekend, called "Emotional Blackmail" by Susan Forward. It sounds like your W is very used to using emotional blackmail, and feels very much entitled to living her life however she sees fit.

Even if I think this is a useful realization of sorts 2long, I don't know what to suggest you do. I feel a little like you and I are sort of at a similar point. We can't bring ourselves to slam the door on our spouses and go to plan B. But we don't know how to instigate change either.

Let me know what you think of my little analysis of things.

For now I don't think it much matters whether you sleep on a cot in the garage or in the same bed, until you've come to a definitive decision about what to do. Keep communicating with your W and see what more you can learn.

Take care,

Jen

Boy 2Long, I can't believe how similar our two WS's think. My sbxh has said almost everything M has at one time or another! I, too, agree with you in all respects.

One note - my IC thinks that MB is a "wonderful" outlet for me and, when sbxh was reading my posts (who knows, he still may be - OW, too) and insisted that I stop posting, IC encouraged me to continue.

Regards,
BB

Jen, yes, I think I know that I'm not stupid <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

It's hard to remember, though when she insists on reminding me otherwise.

BB: My "measured honesty" IC said the same thing yours has, that this is a great place for outlet. I agree with the cautions about the fact that we're not professionals, but I'm smart enough to separate the chaff from the wheat, here. And though we're not professionals here, we have more experience than most of the professionals we deal with.

I hadn't said anything R until my W brought up the "fact" that I seem to be in a better mood. No kidding, we spent a lot of money replacing items lost in the fire this afternoon. I would hate to say how much (in the process, I have this new laptop I'm typing this on). But I consider these things investments that we won't lose by DVing. And they show my confidence in our future.

She said some interesting things about RM. That he's DVing, that his M was a bad one (no kidding, my W cheating with him for something like 12 of the 14 or so years he was M'd might have had a small something to do with that!), and that he'll probably find someone new and remarry and start a new life with them. He's 11 years younger than my W, so "starting a new life" with her is ridiculous, though I will conduct myself as though he plans to do so. He's a threat that can only be removed by NC.

My W had actually gotten to some point in her mind that she felt like I was again "okay" or some $h!t with her friendship. I said I'm not, and I would like her to acknowledge that though she can't let go of contact, that it is a point we can negotiate. She tried to convince me that her care and friendship with RM would not be a problem for our M, but that she still could not end it and that she would not - that her friendship was not a point of negotiation. I replied that I intend to DV her if she can't end it. She said "you have that option."

I most certainly do.

This is NOT vindictiveness or punishment on my part. I'm still very much able to love my W unconditionally, and intend to keep doing so. So now that all this has been aired, it's on the table so we can talk calmly about it (the kids and our D's BF were in the next room, and didn't hear us arguing). I would not be loving her if I were to willingly allow her to follow this idiotic, self-destructive path. And so I'm not going to.

I have a lot coming up in the next 2 months with work, and my W will probably be out of state on her property for most of June. I will research DV in CA when I get time, and probably file in July unless she changes her mind about RM. I won't hide what I'm doing from her either.

Any advice regarding the long-shot "alienation of affection" suit possibility against RM? I would rather not do anything that acknowledges his existence, but I've seen that SH has advised it in some cases here.

Strange weekend. But I feel okay. Just could be a lot happier.

-2long

Your wife is unbelievable. She has been cheating with this married man for 12 years and she expects not to cut off the relationship and your should be OK with her friendship with this guy?
What an attitude. What do you think she would be feeling if the roles were reversed. Apparently she does not care how much humiliation and disrespect she dishes out to you. She does not deserve you and you certainly do not deserve this.
I wish you luck.

Hey 2Long,

Haven't researched CA or NM law, but in the majority of US states, the courts no longer recognize alienation of affection as a cause of action.

BB

2L,

I sit here reading your posts, and I am sort of amazed. With your permission, I am going to be a bit tacky. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

She has claimed all through this almost 1 1/2 year exercise that she really never wanted to marry and doesn't want to be married. Yet, while you don't discuss it, I sense she does love her children. Where does she think they came from? The tooth fairy. She never wanted to marry, but she works on rebuilding a house that the two of you bought and are very attached to. She never wanted to marry but she enjoys a life style she would not have if she had not married.

The inconsistency of it all just stuns me. I guess that is why I am "just learning" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

I also find it interesting and I know you find it annoying that she is willing to give up her marriage but not a friendship. I wonder if she thinks that she will never really lose you and your love so she is really risking nothing and will have two "friends" to sleep with, and be emotionally attached to. I am guess that is her thinking. Divorcing you solves her problems (morally and ethically) and she still gets all she wants: both of you.

I don't know 2L, some times I read your posts and think "this woman is missing something pretty fundamental" and then other times I think "this is all going to work out just the way she wants, she is a happy camper or will be."

I deeply regret that I can offer you no useful advice.

Take care and hang in there.

JL

~T~

When experiencing "foggy weather" in your house, use this flashlight to "see".

Here's the flashlight...

**respect**

Navigate yourself with this light. Look for the path of respect. This is the basis for U-love anyway.

What principles are YOU going to respect?

This approach can save your butt when things get touchy and over-emotional.

((Hugs))

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

BB:

Good. I have no desire to deal with RM in any way, shape or form anyhow.

-2long

2ble post

<small>[ May 05, 2003, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: 2long_2take ]</small>

Bryanp:

"What do you think she would be feeling if the roles were reversed."

Well, that's the rub. She would LIKE the roles reversed, or she would like to give the appearance of being "okay" with me doing what she's done - because it would alleviate her own guilt. Amazingly, she even said so!

"Apparently she does not care how much humiliation and disrespect she dishes out to you. She does not deserve you and you certainly do not deserve this."

She doesn't deserve this either. That's why I'm not going to stand for this nonsense any longer. She's compromising her own integrity for the sake of avoiding consequences. I am doing her no favors by willingly allowing that to continue.

-2long

JL:

"I sit here reading your posts, and I am sort of amazed. With your permission, I am going to be a bit tacky."

Tack away!!

"Yet, while you don't discuss it, I sense she does love her children."

She loves our kids very much. She says so a lot. She respects them as people very much and says so a lot. At the same time, as recently as last night she's said she doesn't want to deal with small kids again, hated the whole time, and doesn't look forward to dealing with grandkids either.

"She never wanted to marry, but she works on rebuilding a house that the two of you bought and are very attached to. She never wanted to marry but she enjoys a life style she would not have if she had not married."

Sadly, I believe that right now her biggest fear (and we all know what that stands for) is that she'll have to keep a full-time job if we DV no matter what we do with our assets. She wouldn't have to if we were to commit to our M, exclusive of former A partners.

"The inconsistency of it all just stuns me. I guess that is why I am "just learning".

Me too! Can I use that name? ;o)

"I also find it interesting and I know you find it annoying that she is willing to give up her marriage but not a friendship."

I've pointed this out to her several times during our great grandmother R talks.

"I wonder if she thinks that she will never really lose you and your love so she is really risking nothing and will have two "friends" to sleep with, and be emotionally attached to."

Well, I think she's said almost as much. She claims to have no desire to sleep with RM anymore, but I'm not sure she realizes that I have little desire to do so with her myself. The last time was wonderful, but the pain of talking about the "meaning" of it afterwards has made it not worth it to me to initiate since.

"Divorcing you solves her problems (morally and ethically) and she still gets all she wants: both of you."

Well, she will "get me" to a point. I will certainly have to deal with her semi-regularly for the rest of my life because of our kids (and house, if we decide to keep it), but I won't otherwise behave like a H if I'm not going to be a H. I want to be H to SOMEONE that appreciates the role.

"I don't know 2L, some times I read your posts and think "this woman is missing something pretty fundamental" and then other times I think "this is all going to work out just the way she wants, she is a happy camper or will be.""

We'll see. I don't think she's happy with the way I'm behaving, but she really should be. It's what she SAYS she wants.

-2long

Pepper:

"**respect**
Navigate yourself with this light. Look for the path of respect. This is the basis for U-love anyway."

Absolutely!

"This approach can save your butt when things get touchy and over-emotional."

I fully expect things to get touchy and emotional as things progress, but you know what? I don't feel those things right now.

If I had to describe my feelings now, I would have to say that, as I walked to my office from the parking lot this morning, I felt truly terrible and wonderful at the same time. The good news is that the "terrible" is no worse than the way I felt on D-day. The better news, though, is that the "wonderful" is something I haven't felt in years. The wonderful feeling of a clearly defined set of goals and pathways, FINALLY. After all this time.

This morning, as we were getting my son ready for school, my W brought up the idea we'd had some time ago of setting up one of our old computers in her house out of state when we go there next. I need to work on my "quick, honest responses" because I shied away from telling her my plan not to return there while her "friendship" with RM is ongoing. I'll be happy to get the computer reformatted and set up to just plug in when she takes it there, but I'm not going back. That part of her life will simply be one of those "friendship" things with me that will no longer be appropriate for MY future desires to be M'd.

We are all going to Fla end of next month for work (and lots of parties!). This was plannned a long time ago, but I hadn't made any reservations. Our D suggested that we make this a family-only trip this time, and my W told me this, like "we could try once more to have a vacation together to see where we want to go from here". I'm jake with that. In case her thinking changes between now and then, or she tells her IC what we've been talking about and her IC raises a red flag or something, I'll give her that long. But I feel pretty resolved right now.

-2long

2ble

<small>[ May 05, 2003, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: 2long_2take ]</small>

I need to work on my "quick , honest responses".

.... ME TOO !

I need to work on my quick, honest AND kind responses. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

It's always easier for ME to "shoot first" and ask questions later .... Perhaps I need to shoot myself in the foot a few more times before I put the pistol down altogether.

I suppose a "quick and honest" staple response might be .... "I need time to process this. Give me (blank) minutes." (unless the house is on fire or someone's stopped breathing or something). MOST things can wait.

You are being honest with yourself.... AND to yourself. How's THAT for validation!

Pep

<small>[ May 05, 2003, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Q,

At the risk of this sounding strange, "I feel happy for you". You are in a good emotional state, and you have clarity.

In your wife's case she seems to only learn from the school of VERY hard knocks unfortunately. Her "version of the truth", is going to get a dose of natural consequences when you take action. It appears that she has convinced herself that she could have you and RM, and not have to give up anything she didn't want to.

By the way, here in NM we're one of the few states you can sue for alienation of affection!
CSue

2L_2T

Hey buddy, long time no talk! I didn't know you were Qfwfq so I lost touch with you (and you know how I always dropped in to see how ol'2L was doing! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Anyway, my friend, not knowing all that you have been through from QfwFq until now, and not reading all the postings to this thread, I would say that you are entitled and fully justified to take almost any action you deem necessary at this point in time.

IMHO, you have exercised every option and explored every conceivable avenue in trying to save your M. Let's face it. The M is more precious and meaningful to you than it is to her. I can't imagine hanging in there as long as you have in the midst of an active A. You have offered the lifesaver to her and have extended the rope on it to such a degree and that she is almost out of sight on the horizon!

Your capacity to love is unquestioned in light of all that you have done for your W and your M. You reach a point where love is still there, you still care, but it is a toughened love. A love that is strong enough to let go if need be and just let things be what they will be. Sad? Yes. Still painful? Of course. But the jaded and much wiser BS begins to see things from a distinct vantage point that encompasses a much broader range of view than the narrower, more selfish view that the WS is typically engaged in, and so we begin to act with a knowledge and maturity that comes from seeing and understanding the whole picture. It&#8217;s the difference between a chess player who can only project 5 moves out and one who can project 30 moves out.

It sounds like you have reached the level of &#8220;the marriage is still worth saving to me, but not at all costs&#8221;. I respect where you are at this point and time. I admire your gallantry and stalwart efforts in your endeavor to save your R with your W, but I am sad too, that you have suffered so long through numerous disappointments. As always, I wish you all the best that you deserve out of life. I&#8217;ll keep looking for your future postings to see how you are doing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />