CSue:

Thanks for your kind words. I feel pretty good right now, surprisingly I sometimes think.

So, alienation of affection is doable in NM? What if I'm here in CA and he's in NM? Still? If I were to persue that, would I have to get a lawyer in NM? (interestingly, a long-time friend that "resurfaced" in my life before D-day, is a lawyer in ABQ).

-TootieQ

Blind:

Hi there. I thought for sure you knew I changed to Qfwfq last December (or whenever the heck that was). Even had a eulogy thread for ol' 2long then (sung to the tune of "Poor Judd is daid"). Well, I got better after my demise! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I was "T-zero" for a little while, then changed to "Qfwfq". Now, I can't seem to get my old account reactivated, so I can't use the name "2long" without adding the "2take" to it (or something). So, I've probably been through as many names lately as boxer shorts!... ...okay, not that many! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-2long (fka Qfwfq, T-zero)

2tQ-

I'm speechless my friend...I honestly thought you were going to hold out forever. I'm not sure if I'm glad or sad for you... a little of both things, I think. Ultimately, I know in my heart that YOU will be fine, and your D too.

My prayers are with you, sir. You are a wonderful man and you deserve the best of what life has to offer...

kily:

I'm certain that my W would rather I "hold on forever," because she'd still be able to control everything. On the other hand, this R convo started when she said that she needed to decide what she was going to do with her life, meaning she was planning on moving away for a while.

Again, she'd have all the control. A year ago, if this had come up, I would probably have been willing to wait for her to decide whatever she felt she needs to decide. But this time it's come up when I've been feeling capable of making decisions of my own, but had still been reluctant to do so.

Thankfully, once I became less reluctant, the pain of indecision and lack of resolution quickly dropped off. I still don't know where we're going with this, but there's no question but that we're on the move!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-2long

<small>[ May 05, 2003, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: 2long_2take ]</small>

You can always try turning around and walking out of the room without saying anything. I think someone else you know does that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

If pressed, you can say: "I didn't have anything else to say."

Sometimes I think that 180 thing works. I did it myself last year a few times. I asked a question and got no response, so I walked away rather than get angry and respond. Sometimes she would chase me down to try and re-open the conversation because she seemed to sense what would happen if she didn't.

The nice thing about making up your mind is that they seem to sense it ( not all do) and respond. The bad thing is that even if recovery is possible we sometimes get triggers and go ahead with the D plans when things possibly could be saved. That's why the boundry thing is so important. You compare their behivor to the boundries and if they ( boundries) are kept you try and recover, but if not it is just smoke and mirrors and you go on. Spacecase's W is a classic example, she kept saying she wanted things to work but broke the boundries constantly. Put up your measuring stick and leave it in plain sight. You'll need it.

Also, I talked with W last night. She says "tell him that whatever happens he will be happier. Anything is better than being in limbo like he has been." I agree.

SS

<small>[ May 05, 2003, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

SS:

I agree, too.

The thing that's the most satisfying of the "wonderful" part of how I feel is that I can more readily formulate answers to her questions or her indecision (which she voices, unlike SC's W) that, assuming she really believes what she tells me is what she wants, make sense. I can DV and "be her friend" because I believe that separating amicably is the right thing to do for our family. If she's angry with me for not putting up with RM, I can say "this way you can have the friendship and KNOW that it's okay with me". If she's angry because I'm a bass turd and always treated her like crap, I can say "this way, you don't have to take that from me".

But best of all, if she asks me why I'm "giving up," I can say "I don't want our M to end, but you insist it did years ago. I've done all I can think of to save it."

I am happier, though I'm certainly not "blissful." Knowing I'll be okay is a lot better than worrying about it all the time.

Would love to save our M, though. But only a "real" M. None of this "you were a bass turd this year, so since RM was available, I'm going to go back to him for a third time". Not that he was "available" the first two times. Or maybe, not that he's likely to "grow" any integrity in the future, since he's demonstrated his lack of integrity to date.

My W would like me to "just accept her" and "just trust her" that she wouldn't do something like this again. This way, I don't have to try to convince her what I believe constitutes trust. She can do whatever she wants.

-TootieQ

<small>[ May 05, 2003, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: 2long_2take ]</small>

I just remembered something else my W said on Friday night that "helped" my decision along. She had planned to wait until our son got out of HS (in two years) to leave.

She doesn't want a M or a H, doesn't believe we've been "M'd" for years now, and she wants me to hang on until she dumps me in two years?

Homey doesn't want to play anymore.

Again, if she changes her mind and hunkers down, I'm all ears.

-2long

This always gets me....

"just accept her" ..... meanwhile, the action verb she is asking you to accept is left off the end of the sentence!!! (how convenient for one's conscience)

"You don't accept me." is a bogus arguement, meant to distort the facts. Makes YOU appear UN-accepting. "You don't accept my infidelity." is the actual problem.See if you can coax these words out of her mouth next time she complains you "don't accept" her.

"Yes, M, I accept YOU, but I will not accept on-going infidelity as part of our marriage."

"Just trust her" is akin to the "you don't accept me" bull crap. Again .... the action verb is left off. ASK HER what she means next time she says this .... "I should just trust you to do what?" .... have her supply the action/ verb.

Pay attention to these little "hits" she makes toward you. They imply there is some character flaw in YOU that makes YOU at fault for not trusting her and not accepting her .... INFIDELITY.

When you feel a twinge that your character is being blamed, or put on the spot .... look and see if she is using incomplete sentences again. Then ask for a complete understanding of what is expected .... from her POV.

Your imperfect marriage is NOT what she is complaining about. She wants YOU to accept and trust immoral and obnoxious behavior.

Yeah, right.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Pepper:

"Pay attention to these little "hits" she makes toward you. They imply there is some character flaw in YOU that makes YOU at fault for not trusting her and not accepting her .... INFIDELITY."

I told her repeatedly, via Reverse Babble, that "everything wrong with our M is my fault, everything right with it is your credit." Things like "yep, I'm a [censored]."

So, ending our M in DV should be just what she's always wanted. She should be happy! How come she isn't?

I'm going to focus on how my decision should actually have her bubbly with excitement. ...then, if she's unexcited all the time, I will ask her what she'd like me to do to help her with it...

No sweat off mine.

Please understand, though, that I have no desire to play mind games with her about this. It might be tempting to play games or be vindictive in a situation like this. But I don't have any desire to do so.

-2long.

Pep: you forgot "Abusive".

2: I'm sorry the path here has been so painful.

Pepper, John:

And you both forgot the word "insulting." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

It's insulting that she expects me to tolerate her "friend" just because she doesn't believe she'll resume her A with him (assuming the EA will ever really end).

And what if RM remarries? Pity the poor gal that hooks up with him when she finds out, possibly years down the line, that he's still "friends" with the OW that broke up his first M.

This could get ugly... ...and slowly, too. Again, I don't want to play anymore.

It isn't up to me anymore what my W goes through with this clown. I just hope she can see through him before he decides to dump his "friend" like a turd in a cesspool when his next GF insists he do so. And even better if she can do so soon enough to rebuild our M and family.

One can hope. Especially when one (or 2) has options.

-2long

2L,

You know one of the very difficult things about this whole mess is that for 12 years she lied. Not to you, but about you to herself and RM. It is very hard to face 12 years of lies and admit is was all a cover up an affair which I suspect she KNEW was immoral and wrong.

Interestingly, if her comments about being a grandmother are are really true, she will lose you, your support and her children as well. I suspect you will be a great grand father, I am glad I am not YOUR AGE <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . Of course when I become a grandfather, I won't remember the kids names. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

My guess is that she is having a hard time letting go of the lies to herself about you, and you have made things really bad by actually changing to an even better H. Nothing tees people off more than to be wrong and made even more wrong. Tough to eat that old bird.

Have you all talked with your son about any of this? I know your daughter has some idea of what is going on. If not perhaps you need to start laying the ground work.

Must go get back to our favorite planet.

JL

JL:

You're right, of course. And it doesn't matter whether I'm a bass turd or not, or whether she "hardly ever mentioned you" to RM or not. She built this incredible construct to justify her behavior. I'm dissolving the mortar as we speak.

It does no good to contradict her views, though. And if we DV, it doesn't matter anyway. Like I said, she should be just as happy as can be right now. She'll be utterly FREE. But at the same time it does no good to point out her illogic, it's nice to finally be able to get past the fear that she might "call my bluff". I don't like making demands or ultimatims, but at least now they're not empty bluffs.

Our D knows about the A, as you probably remember. She works with my W now, and knows that RM is a consultant still (she doesn't think much of him as a consultant, but doesn't want to be put in the middle of our problems, either). My son does not know about the A, unless my D has told him, and I doubt she has.

They're both going to need to know soon that I intend to DV if RM isn't toast soon. And why.

-2long

I got an email from someone on here a while ago, asking if I've considered starting coaching or counseling with one of the Harleys.

This question comes up every now and then, and each time I answer with some in-depth explanation of my sitch and how long I've been in plan A (and how well I believe I've been doing), my thoughts on conditional versus unconditional love, that sort of thing.

One of the things that SH asked me when I called him last August was "how is your energy level?" At the time, it was still pretty high, because my optimism for OUR future hadn't been beaten to a pulp yet at that point. Now? My energy level for our M is at an all-time low, but my energy level for a brighter future is higher than it's ever been. ...but I'm no longer the least bit optimistic that our M will survive.

Considering all that's been happening and what I have to deal with, is there anybody out there that believes differently? And if so, why?

-2long

One of the reasons I ( whenever I last said something) recommended calling Steve again is that you didn't have a direction other than to wait - and continue to drain your bank. The one that made you want to stay married, not the UCL one. ( call it what you will, you know what I mean.)

I wanted you to have direction, and even if Steve doesn't say things the same way you do, he is very good as helping people fix marriages so I thought it would be good to have him point you and let you run.

Now you have direction and it is a matter of time before *something* happens. I still hope it is good, but I'm an optimist.

I don't know how your W will respond, but I have high hopes for you. (I did before, anyway, just so you know.) I feel if she doesn't respond you are going the right direction at about the right speed.

Call now?
If you did, would it make any difference in what you are going to do?

Could he give any things to try beyond what you have already tried?
Perhaps he has a few tricks you don't know about, but you have talked to him, you have an idea.

got to go, see you around.

SS

SS:

"Call now?
If you did, would it make any difference in what you are going to do?"

Probably not. Thanks for the post. It's nice to hear that people might still have hope for us. That doesn't change what I believe I have to do either. It just puts a different perspective on the possible outcomes, which I tend to need <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-ol' 2long

This is not going to come across as very positive, but I don't know how else to do this.

I'm just not doing well with all the conflicting advice I'm getting from here, iloveulove.com, my counselors, my W, whatever.

I try to do the right thing and it seems that no matter what I do it's wrong. Nothing produces the desired results, and that's part of the problem. I keep wanting desired results. Today my W realized she didn't know where her computer from work is. If it's lost, so is a LOT of data that includes RM's input over the past several months. I'm fairly certain that she'll blame me for it somehow. But there I go, disrespectfully judging her again.

I try not to bash my W, but we all tend to jump on one side or another, and I have inadvertently turned well-meaning people (including myself) into adversaries. I'm sorry for that.

I simply don't have the energy for this anymore. I'm sorry to disappoint, but that's the simple truth.

For all I care, my W can keep her friend. I won't have sex with her anymore, if that's what she wants. I won't make a move toward DV, leave that up to her. I will do things around here that don't put me out too much and that I truly enjoy anyway. I will love my kids and help them grow into the adults they're already turning out to be quite nicely. Just a few more years and my son will be out on his own. Then my W can run off an do whatever she thinks is right or wrong. I don't have the energy for this anymore.

I give up.
Goodbye. YOu have my email address.
-2long, T-zero, Qfwfq

<small>[ May 05, 2003, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: 2long_2take ]</small>

2L!
Don't give up, buddy! I know it feels awful, I know it seems hopeless...but it's not!

Call me!

2long,

You have been such an inspiration and a help to me since I have been here, and to many others. Sorry you are having a tough time of it right now. Regardless of what choices you make, I think you are a wise enough person to make the RIGHT choices for you. Just be sure and think about what advice you've given others and apply it to yourself as well.

At some point, you're right, though, you need to worry about your son, and yourself, and detach from what your W is doing to you. I'm sorry that it's been so hard, but I also know you're one to fight to the last breath. If that's what you've come to, then you will be missed, but perhaps tomorrow the sun will rise and things will look a little differently in your world.

Hope to see you back. I'll send some good vibes your way.

ALS

T

Hold onto yourself.

You don't need to "do" anything but that.

Cut yourself some slack.

Pep