Hey ARK,
Thanks for not hitting me too hard and for making me laugh!
I suppose I'll have to deal with the fallout & guilt of ruining the NC with OW#1, if in fact NC had been in place as WH says.

I don't like the idea of letting the kids go to him. Older ones don't want to anyways, and that leaves 4 yr. old D. If you remember the 1st and only time that he took her, he left her at OW's place to watch a movie with her kids while he went to grocery store. OW is a perfect stranger to D! So I don't want them there and he hasn't asked again since then, he knows how upset I was by that and not sure if that's why he hasn't asked again.

We are on the verge of bankruptcy, spending $ on a hotel, out of the question and foolish waste.

If he stays overnight, I can Plan A, and maybe even get some work out of him? We have limited contact, and because of the changes i've sensed since his last visit a month ago, I'd actually like to see if I'm on the right track with that.

I am still the greatest Muffin Maker!!

Why not make him make the drive home each night??

I mean it just seems to much like letting him eat cake..that while you do a plan A while he's there....there's no reality to it...

The sleeping arrangements should be his problem....
you are not limiting contact with the children...but on the other hand is it fair to them for daddy to stay and play house...like some wonderful relative...popping for a weekend visit..and then come monday back to abandonment...

learnin not trying to hurt you or tell you are doing it wrong...but...plan a is worthwhile with boundaries as well as goood things...

let him sleep in the car
Send him on his merry way...and tell him the kids can't wait to see you for breakfast tomorrow...drive carefully....oh and by the way here are some warm muffins to munch on the way back to your apartment... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

ark

Last night I called WH because I needed input on what to do regarding my search for a vehicle to replace the leased one before our credit is trashed!
He really could care less it seems.

He had bigger concerns than if his wife and kids will have safe transportation!

Apparantly, OW's H has sent OW's lawyer a letter, smearing WH's "good" name and character!! Not sure what he's up to, custody? And of course WH is blaming me for any information that OW'sH may have about him. PLEASE!! WH & OW start this hell and then I'm the one to blame for any and all fallout!! If they didn't want anyone to know about their behaviour & actions then they shouldn't have been doing it!! How is that my fault. I'm sure whatever OW's H says about WH is probably true, but I'm sure WH won't like it one bit. And again he will try to make me take the fall for it. WH said he is finding out today what is in the "letter".

I am so sick of this crap. Just when I feel like we're rounding some kind of corner, something else happens.

I just wish that financial crisis wasn't complicating things.

I'm really having a "my life sucks" kindof day.

Not sure there is much left to fight for. Except my sanity and peace of mind. When do I get those back?

Have decisions to make and not sure what to do?

Surprisingly, I was approved for a loan for a low-end new car yesterday. I was sure that I would have to put WH's name on loan to qualify but I went for it myself and got approved. The lease on my car is up in July and I am afraid that if I wait till then our credit will be trashed...I need reliable transportation!!

But now I am nervous about buying it. WH says he will help pay for it, but obviously there is nothing to trust in his promises!! He is going to deal with returning our 2 leased vehicles...complicated financial stuff...sucks.

I hate not having anyone to advise me on these types of decisions and I still resort to WH out of habit, as if he's making sound decisions these days??

I'm so tired of living this way, I'm feeling so alone, the one person I relied on is not here for me. I still can't help thinking he will all of a sudden return to "normal" and come riding in to rescue me,renew his love for me,ask for forgiveness ...Stupid, HuH?

I don't know where I am with this Plan A stuff anymore...I'm thinking I feel better when there is less contact with him, so is it time for Plan B? More decisions...I'm just not sure I am ready to not see, hear him.

Not a good day...

Somebody please calm me down!
I don't want to be too hopeful, especially after all that has happened, and the hopeless feeling I have had lately!

Read even the posts from this thread and you will see the ups & downs...

Even this afternoon, it seemed hopeless, and then another argument w/WH on the phone. I had called him to tell him I was on my way to buy the new car...should I go through with it. And to offer to bring the two youngest kids to him for a short visit. He said yes about the car but then was so angry, about the letter from OW's H sent to her lawyer. WH thinks I have lied to OWH about him, saying he's a drug dealer, etc.!!
I told him once again that yes I had talked to him but not for 2 mos. and that I did NOT lie like that to him!

I hung up and went to buy the car, a completely joyless experience!

When I got home I called to tell him it was done, the purchase that is. Now WH is calmer, apologizes for saying the things he said, asked about the car, asked if I was nervous about the purchase, trying to be nice.
I was crying a little bit, said yes I was nervous, I don't know what to do anymore...
We talked again about OW's H, I said why don't you just walk away from that mess, don't we have enough problems on our own?
He said something like, "I don't know if it's just gone too far for us"
I said, WH, we have 20 yrs together, kids together, and I still love you...it wouldn't be easy but we shouldn't not even try.

AND THEN he says, "I'll try to get up for a couple of days and we'll go out together and discuss like a couple of adults what we can do. We'll throw all our cards on the table and see what we can do. I don't know if it will change anything, but I don't know that it won't. We'll see." He said he didn't want to seem like he didn't appreciate my offer to bring kids for a visit, because he misses them very much and can't wait to see them. Then he said he wasn't blowing me off, but that a couple of guys that he worked with were in the other room and he had to go. He'd call me later tonight or in the morning.

OK, so I know that I shouldn't get too hopeful, but after everything that has happened over the past 5 months, this is the closest he has come to even suggesting talking about anything close to reconciliation.

Is it a set-up. Because I really couldn't handle that. And if after talking, it doesn't lead to anything positive, I don't want to be devastated all over again.

Please advise, I don't want to blow it!

Learnin,
I don't have a whole lot to say, but I would be very cautious in dealing with your WH. He sounds like a major foggy cake eater right now- seeing the kids when he feels like it and treating you good some and bad some. My ex said a lot of the things your husband has (it isn't you, or happy is not a place I am in right now), and it just makes you more confused, foggy and hopeful. Have hope, but not in your WH. Have it in yourself, and if you believe, in Jesus. I agree with ark about him staying at your place, I don't think it is a good idea.

Good, short & conversational phone call from WH on sat. I'm nervous about the thought of a potential "talk" this weekend about "putting our cards on the table", whatever that means!

I need to be strong enough to be able to set my boundaries and conditions...

A lot can happen between now & the end of the week, I know, I've experienced it....but I'm still optimistic...

Not sure I can stand the suspense.
But I've certainly handled a lot worse in the past few months...I'll be ok...I have to be...

I was looking at S's baseball schedule and realized that if WH comes home this weekend he will not see any games. So being in a generous mood I called and offered to come to get him tomorrow(my only free afternoon) and he would have the opportunity to see 4 games by saturday.

WH says, he has plans for thursday, all day plans w/roomate. I said, "and he wouldn't understand if you canceled? to see your kids for the first time in a month? You have plans w/ OW..."
He doesn't say anything...and then says" this is short notice, come and get me saturday. I am noncommittal and then he says well maybe oldest S can come and get me(he has WH's car).

I was pissed but didn't say anything, I figured he probably wouldn't take me up on my offer anyways but I tried.

I left to go to S's 2 baseball games and when I got back, I called WH and said, my offer still stands to come and get you tomorrow, it is the only day that works for me, I won't be available to get you this weekend. IF you can't find a way to come up, then I guess the kids will have to wait a while longer to see you.

He says, OK, I'll call oldest S and see if he can get me.

Fat chance! Oldest S, is into softball right now and keeping himself scarce these days. So WH probably won't get up. OH well, not my problem, though I feel for the kids. But I wasn't going to make myself available on his terms and his time frame. The traffic will be hell this weekend being a holiday weekend and I have things to do. So tough!

Not sure our "talk" will ever materialize, but I should've realized that anyways.

I think I'm getting closer to Plan B. Even though I was willing to let him come visit for a few days, I know it would be tough on me, painful to have him around especially if "talk" doesn't happen or does and goes nowhere.

I feel myself caring less and less. I look at a picture I carry of him, and it's as though I don't even recognize the face I see, it seems so long ago that we were close.

It scares me to feel this way!

Here's my thought process today:

A has pretty much been exposed to the "world" which has of course expectedly, made WH very angry for some time now, because "I've" made him look bad!!

However, although our oldest 2 S's have pretty much figured out that there is an OW, our youngest 2 children, S-12 & D-4(too young?), have never been explicity told there is an OW.

We've never even sat them down for anykind of talk. I have said things like "I know that Mom & Dad are having problems right now, and I'm sad about that, I'm not sure what will happen, but no matter what we will be ok"

And I just try to make their lives as "normal" as possible on a daily basis.

I don't want to be the one to give the reasons why WH is not here for them, not coming to games, not living at home even though he's laid off, I don't want to play good guy/bad guy.

BUT, after 5 mos. and no change, should these kids be given "some" facts as to why Dad is letting them down. He hasn't seen them in a month! And I'm getting tired of evading and covering....

My question, should I tell them myself, WH always evades the issue of a sit down talk together.
And what should I tell them, how much?

I'm sure that 12 yr old knows more than we think.

I just think it's time, 5 mos., no change...

Thoughts?

Ok, I'm desperate, I know it, WH knows it, the world knows it!

I've called him already 4 times at least tonight. He answered his cell from OW's house.
So he's spending the evening with her and her kids. Ok, so for some reason that sends me into a tailspin. Why? It's not like I don't know he's spending time with her & kids...it's always when I call and I know they are together, I go crazy...

I initially called with credit card #'s to call, they are beginning to call here all the time, trying to work out payment, settlements, etc.

His offer to talk this weekend and "put all our cards on the table" is merely babble for, do you want to divorce first or go bankrupt first? His words!

I couldn't agree on whether to let him come up this weekend to see the kids and stay here, I'm feeling so torn about that, especially in this mood. But then he threatened to come anyways, saying that because there is no D in progress, I can't prevent him from staying in his house! I'd like to see him try! Although I did ask how OW felt about his coming to stay, and he said, she's uncomfortable with it! So that's one good thing about it.
Then because I said I was sick of keeping time available for him, such as this weekend, in case it's "convenient" for him to come see the kids, he accuses me of making it difficult for him to see them!, to make up my mind, do I want him to see the kids or not. I don't really know how I feel anymore. He hasn't seen them in over a month! Not because I had anything to do with it!
He said OW has been nice enough to offer to drive him here to see them, but he thought that wouldn't be wise.
I got so frustrated and angry talking with him, that I finally sat the boys down and told them that WH wants a D, and that they have a right to know as it will affect their lives and that if they have any questions or want to talk about it, they should. I also told 12 yr. old,(who may have already suspected, but then again maybe not from what I can gather from his reaction) that there is an OW and Kids, and that is something that their Dad wants them to know about.

I then called WH back and told him what I told them, and he said, good, now that it's out in the open I can introduce them to OW. I said we were coming down tonight to sit down with him & OW and they could explain to the kids, the changes that they can expect in their lives due to their decisions. I really had no intention of going, but for some reason I wanted to piss him off...He said he would have me arrested if I showed up there.
He also told me to tell the kids that the reason he wasn't visiting them was that I was "Hag". So I said, sure I'll pass that along.
Later, about call #4, he said don't tell them I said that...well why not I think they need a reason for why you are doing what you are doing... and if that's your reason...
He says I'm desperate, that we've talked for over an hour tonight and havent settled anything. I said I didn't expect to, but why couldn't we just talk...
I know I'm desperate, when I get like this I can't help myself...I want to talk to him...I'm thinking what triggers it, is the prospect of seeing him...and knowing that when he said we would talk, I was fooling myself thinking it meant a talk about reconciliation. But check out earlier posts on this thread...he led me to believe...I'm such a f@@@#n fool!! I haven't learned a thing in 5 months!

I need to just give up.

For 5 mos. now, I have tried to protect the younger ones from the facts, and I feel some sense of relief for having that out now. But then again I feel like sh##t! I don't want to be the type of person who puts the kids in the middle...it's just that I am in so much pain right now...I can't think straight!

More desperation...I then called OW #1 from 2.5 years ago. (See earlier posts on this thread). I had a very calm nice conversation with her. I said I knew she certainly had no obligation to be truthful with me, but hoped she would at least give me that. I wanted to know if I was right in believing that contact had stopped when it did. She claims yes it did, except for her call to him last week when she knew I was attempting to find her. She told me some of the things that she gathered from her short conversation with him. That he didn't sound like the same person she thought she had gotten to know. That he said he wasn't coming home and that if he did, he was sure that he would probably cheat again. She also said that during their 3 week A, it was obvious that he was very much in love with me, thought the world of me and the kids, and was very committed to coming back and making it right, he only had wonderful things to say about me. She was very surprised to learn that he had cheated again which led her to believe now that perhaps she wasn't the first or that current OW(#2) would be the last.
She apologized to me for her lack of judgement and morals in having the A, and realized she was probably being rude to even think that an apology would help at this point, and I said that I appreciated the gesture. She wished me well and encouraged me to look out for the best interest of me & the kids.
You know for an OW, she seemed sincere, but then again we all know what a SUCKER I am!!

Anyways, after all this high test emotion and lack of control, how do I feel now?

A bit calmer, I am over my uncontrollable urge to "desperately" call WH or anyone else for that matter, at least for a while anyways! And I am feeling like I should proceed with D as soon as tomorrow...just get it over with...give him what he wants. And right about now I'm feeling like I am the out of control wacko that he thinks I am.

I know I need to prepare myself for more emotional fallout from the kids(which WH denies is his fault, but is actually my fault, because I'm the one here with them, so once again he tries to convince himself that what he is doing has no direct negative impact, that how we feel is not a direct result of his behaviour!)

I know that I do appear desperate...But like I said to WH tonight...why is it not "desperate" that OW wants you bad enough to break up our marriage for you, but it is desperate for me to love you enough to want to salvage a 20 yr. relationship and the happiness of our children?

Of course, I know he cannot see the logic in that.
I know I am wasting my time trying to get him to "see" what and why he is doing what he is doing. I know, I thought I had learned something here over the past 5 mos.! Why do I go and do these things? Why do I continue to fight so hard for something that will never be. Am I just in denial as WH claims?

This is long, I'm ranting, venting, trying to regain some control...

Replies would be nice, no response over the past few posts...feeling lonely...anyone there?

I feel your pain , confusion and that sense of being or feeling desparate. THIS is normal .

I maybe the wrong one to say this but , You need to get control over the chase . He knows you love him , he knows he can come home , he knows you want fix all and have your family together .

NOW he needs to see what he is looseing , think he won't see it if he don't see you or if you don't remind him every day ?

I know , but the exact oppisite is true . HE did this once before and from what OW #1 is worth , she said , that he loved you . THAT some times gets taken for granted .

Well the best thing to do some times is nothing , I mean nothing for him . ONLY for you , live life PLAN B I guess . thats it you act if you have to that you are movin on . EVEN if in the beging he acts like thats great and he is happy for you , give it time he is still in fog .

JMVHO I just think he still feels good about the chase , knowing you will call , day 1,2, 3,then BAM he's knowing the phone will ring , WELL don't do it .

I do not listen well LOL but I really think for what its worth there are no garenties , so what do you got to loose .

THE kids well asways hard , be the better person . YOU told them good move , I feel open and honest is the way to go and yes there will still be question and answer them honest .

I love daddy very much , but I can not make daddy do anything he does not want to . I only know mom&dad will always love all of you and will always be your MOM & DAD no one can take that away or change it .

IF you think its not fair that most will fall on you , well your right , but at least you are an adult a MOM and a hell of a women and him or no one else can take it away from you .

Well I did not want you to think no one was listening . I hate that LOL

Thanks 3!
It helps when someone understands the chaos of my life.
I am considering Plan B, I know that WH will actually be happy for it.
But it is so hard to begin knowing that I will not even get to hear his voice...it's all I have left, even though it hurts to hear what he has to say. Is that sick or what?
Thanks for you input and advice, it's appreciated. Hope you are well.

No it's not sick to want to hear your husband's voice. That's a normal desire considering your grief. I know because I've been suffering the same pain and it is the same feeling I had when my father died. I just wanted to hear my father's voice, to talk to him. We are suffering from grief, the loss of our previous way of relating in our marriage.

I call and listen to my WS' voicemail all the time. I also do hangups when he picks up the phone. That's not anything one tenth as bad as what he has done to me. I read the book LETTING GO and the authors actually recommend doing this during the first week of their suggested treatment program.

learning,
Your title got my attention, thus I read this thread in its entirety. Let me preempt this by stating I was the OW, so you may not want to hear from me. Your posts are very revealing of your emotions. I can relate to many of the same feelings of depsaration, anger, etc. in other relationships I have had. Regardless of our title, we are both human and feel pain.

I am glad you took control of your life by at least getting the car and all by yourself as well. I know it is hard to learn to face things alone, however one does tend to gain a sense of pride after the fact for having done so.

I think it is lousy that your H hasn't seen the kids in a month. My FMM would never have done that. When he first left he would go at last 3 times a week to see his baby daughter. I always encouraged him to do so. When he was home was he an active day to day, hands on father?

You mention 5 months, I haven't read your other posts except this thread. Has he been out of the home the 5 months? You also mention finances. you might consider at least filing a legal separation to protect yourself legally and get a temporary judgement for CS so you won't have to call and ask him for money.

The next time you speak w/ H I would stress that he needs to see the kids. Even if he only came down and took them to park and to lunch. The 4-year-old is especially in need of this contact. If the son won't drive him in his own car then he should take it back.

I agree w/ the other posters about the repeated phone calls. Try buying a mini recorder and venting in it as if you were on the phone w/ H. Say all the things you want. When you calm down replay it and listen to it as he would.

I will look tomorrow to see if I can find your story as I am interested in hearing it. tew

Mimi & tew,
thanks for your replies. Tew, I originally posted in Plan A/B and shortly after moved here.
I have had several threads over the past few months, with all the bizarre details of my situation since D-Day.
Take a look.
I'm actually glad that I contacted OW #1 finally, somehow it has brought me a sense of reassurance in some strange way, that he did love me and that I wasn't crazy thinking for so long that it was over if it wasn't and that I believed him when he said he loved me.
Thanks.

Good morning , I was thinking about you . AND I wanted to ask you a question, I know WS in LAID off work . HAVE you looked in to seeing if your family quilifies for any assistance . FOOD stamps ect.

I know you work as well , but where I am it goes according to income and how many in your house hold . Also do you or your WS carry the medical coverage for kids? yourself ?

SOME of these things you should look into .

NOW and for the future , should the worst happen .

Also the advice about taping his voice , I was tinking the same thing , I did that and it does help for several reasons ONE you can hear his voice LOL , THE other is to listen to yourself .

SOMETIMES it will also help to hear what he is saying and what ws thinks you said, to set him off .

AND doing for your self it will give you a better feeling . YOU said, your so use to making the decisions with him or having his input . WELL great way to PLAN A , show of total independence.

THESE are the things , that will shock him doing something with out his input , WS will find out later on that you did something then will wonder why you didn't run to him .

OK I am rambling . GOT to go!!!!!!!!!

WH did not come to see the kids over the holiday weekend as he had said.
I called him sat. morn to see if he was coming as I had not heard from him since our argument on the phone wed. He said, no he wasn't coming, he sounded in rough shape, hungover?. He then said BS? and I said yeah, he said "nevermind I'll call you later." It sounded like something was wrong or on his mind.
I called sunday, and offered to bring kids to him for a couple of hours? He hasn't seen them in over a month and I want it clear that it's not because I haven't tried to help him out. He declined the offer but talked to me for a bit. He said he didn't have plans for the rest of the weekend, but that he'd try to borrow roomates car and come up next weekend.
He just called me at work. He has asked our oldest S to go get him in the morning so he can come see the kids who he misses "like crazy".
I said what about the weekend? He has "PLANS" for the weekend. He hopes to be back to work withiin the next few weeks if the outlook continues, and that once he is then he will be giving me whatever he can for $.
WH said, "I know the kids need things and that you have been making due"
ME-the kids need more than "things".
WH-I hope to be giving them more time soon, but that doesn't mean Im coming home. We'll just have to work out the details of that.

So I don't know how he supposes to give them "more" time once he's working, and most likely overtime work?

you know, i'll give this a little more time, but I really think that it'll be time soon for filing. He really seems like he's made up his mind and hasn't "crashed" like I thought he would by now. I think I'm just kidding myself because "I" can't imagine my life without him, but apparantly he can imagine it without me & the kids. I should just let him go. I know
that I'll be "ok" but I wanted to be more than just ok.
Now, to just get through the next few days with him here without crying or LBing. And I know that some of you here think that I shouldn't even let him stay at the house...not sure what to do there. I think it's more for me than anything that I let him, I'm weak, I miss him, and I want to be near him. I just hope I can keep it cool.

I don't want him in the house alone while I work. If it was the weekend, the kids or I would always be there. I may have to tell him that he can't be there during the day, but I know he'll give me the "it's still my house too" routine.

WH is expected today for a visit. I assume he is staying at least one night, and I know he wants to be back to his place for friday and weekend "plans".

It has been over a month since me or the kids have seen him.

I have such a desire to talk to him about his plans, he stated again yesterday on the phone that he is not coming home...that we will just have to work out the details...

Should I just ignore him basically while he is here to see the kids? I feel I am close to a Plan B, but am so afraid of taking that step as I feel that will give WH exactly what he wants. He is adamant about getting a D as soon as he can afford.

I am feeling more and more detached from him lately and I think that not seeing him for so long has contributed.

I still cannot believe that he no longer loves me! I just cannot believe it! How will I ever accept that and move on? I will never love like this again, and no one will ever love him as much as I did.

I think his impending visit has me shaken.

Update:
WH is NOT coming for a visit today after all. Major accident on turnpike prevented S from being able to get to WH's in time to get back for WH to see 12 yr old game and for driver S to his softball game. So WH told S to forget it. Will try another time, maybe tomorrow, but he needs to be back by friday.

So WH calls me to inform me of change. Now keep in mind that it has been 5 week since he has seen the kids.
I ask, "what about the weekend?"
No, he has plans on saturday w/OW & friends. Maybe sunday...
"You can't cancel to see your kids?"
No.
I said quietly, "you are a piece of work" and hung up.

I wish he could see just how pathetic he looks.

My boss said something to me today that was very interesting.
"If you override your concience enough times it becomes like an unused muscle and it no longer works like it should anymore"

If that isn't the truth!

NOW the plan is that WH is coming up Sun. or Mon. and spending the whole week. He acts like he is doing us a favor!

Not sure how he's getting here. He may have his roomate drive him halfway and either I or S will meet him there.

I want to use this week to my advantage. Haven't had much opportunity to plan A in person. Have really had some big LB phone calls over the last couple of months.

I know that Relationship talk should not be addressed. However, 2 weeks ago, WH mentioned going out and "putting all our cards on the table,see what we have left, I'm not sure it will change anything, but I don't know that it won't"

At the time I took that as a step to talk about "us", & whether reconciliation is possible.

Later, during a LB phone call, he said he meant, do I want bankruptcy first or divorce first, but I know he was angry and in the presence of OW.

So, I'd like to revisit that if I see a good opportunity, or if he suggests again that we "go out and talk like adults". I have so many questions, but sometimes when we get talking I get so emotional that I can't think straight to ask the things that are on my mind, but then again maybe I shouldn't even go there because I'll only get "fog" answers.

If he does follow through with this visit, it will be very testing for me to have him around.

I will need to stay busy and focused, so I don't get angry, frustrated or emotional.