Well, Squeak, it's all kind of depressing. Just as soon as I decide to cut the cord, it seems I get more messages than before, etc., etc.

A nice "thank you" by email on Wednesday for packing up his clothes to send to him, with the dresser he wanted. He said he "hadn't intended" I should do this. Then how did he think it would happen (since he requested his clothes)? One of those many fog mysteries...

Yesterday a phone message for his son. Not a big deal, but one of maybe four phone messages in the last two months.

Then he phones today. He was just over here to "borrow" tools for his car, wound up taking his tie rack (complicated to unscrew, we were working on it within inches of each other) for ten minutes or so. It all means nothing, so it's a downer. Friend will come over for vodka and popcorn shortly; that will help wash some of this out of my system. Contact always kicks up the feathers again.

I try to be chatty, pleasant, businesslike. But it's all such a big nothing. No sign of rapprochement, nor desire for it.

AD, just a thought, and please don't take this the wrong way: you always sound so wimpy in your messages. So desperate to please W. I know that's part of Plan A, from one angle. But maybe it's annoying for her. I'm wondering if there isn't a way to project something stronger, more positive, more forceful, more independent -- less desperate and needy for approval. Again, I'm just looking at the emails, and they may not reflect the reality. But it seems you are always playing defense. Maybe focusing on job more -- that would please W, and take your mind of her, and the pressure off her.

What do you think?

Well, I'm kind of struggling. My H's #1 is admiration. To date, I have thanked, acknowledged, complimented
1. his appearance (clothes, hair, tan)
2. his abilities (capable, handy, smart, handled situtions well, would be able to do X well if he chose)
3. tasks he's handled (fixed cell phone problem, dealt with service people, things he's helped with/handled for me)
4. past accomplishments

I cannot get a positive reaction. He almost always remembers what I said. He says, it was fine. Sometimes he'll disagree (ie hair does NOT look good the way it's cut..) and other times he discredits it due to context (ie I hate that equipment, just glad it's off my "to do" list). If I ask if he beleives that I am sincere in my appreciation, he says yes. But he takes no pleasure in the admiration. More to the point, he seems dead set that I will NOT be successful in meeting this need.

It's getting past the annoying/frustrating stage to just down right petty. I am maintaining my composure, but inside, I am getting mad. I am beginning to think, that his agenda is to ensure that this does NOT work.

His #2 is convo, and he seems not to want to share any words with me. I get one word answers, or "I don't know", most of the time.

I am wondering how long I can keep up my part, if he continues this way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Squeak:
<strong>
It's getting past the annoying/frustrating stage to just down right petty. I am maintaining my composure, but inside, I am getting mad. I am beginning to think, that his agenda is to ensure that this does NOT work.

His #2 is convo, and he seems not to want to share any words with me. I get one word answers, or "I don't know", most of the time.

I am wondering how long I can keep up my part, if he continues this way.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He is most likely still in the state of withdrawal. His Love Bank is still in a deficit situation. You are making deposits, but you haven't gotten into the black yet. Keep making those admiration deposits! Maybe try to do other ENs (like AS or DS) that you can do w/o his participation as well. Keep being positive!

More Plan A on a few occasions -- more non-communicating meetings when in public settings (H with OW). The whole thing pretty awful, pretty depressing. But no LBs on my side, anyway.

I go out of town for a few days. It will be a relief.

A.M.Martin

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by A.M.Martin:
<strong>AD, just a thought, and please don't take this the wrong way: you always sound so wimpy in your messages. So desperate to please W. I know that's part of Plan A, from one angle. But maybe it's annoying for her. I'm wondering if there isn't a way to project something stronger, more positive, more forceful, more independent -- less desperate and needy for approval. Again, I'm just looking at the emails, and they may not reflect the reality. But it seems you are always playing defense. Maybe focusing on job more -- that would please W, and take your mind of her, and the pressure off her.
What do you think?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, probably you are right. I really find myself often just waiting to see what W will do and then reacting - instead of setting the pace and leading.

One thing I have found is that she really does want to spend time together - even if that time (IMO) is not spent in a very interesting way. Lately, almost every evening W says "let's go somewhere" - and even if it's just driving around, we usually do. When we leave the house, I usually have no idea where we'll go or what we'll do. So, I leave myself completely at her whim. A couple of times lately, this has resulted in us going out to do nothing when I was already very tired (and she was too) when we would have been much better off just making an early night of it. Two days later, we probably couldn't remember where we went.

So, if I could change that - and come up with some really interesting things to do in the evenings when she says "lets go somewhere", it might make a difference for both of us - but there are not many things we can come up with to do around 8pm on a weeknight with a 2-year-old in tow. If she would agree to have a baby-sitter, it would change a lot - but so far W refuses to do that - doesn't trust anybody enough.

BTW. I appologise for not posting many comments on your situation - and appreciate your continued comments on mine.

-AD

Update:

The weekend went pretty badly - or at least it started badly and ended so-so.

I came home Friday, and within an hour W had thrown tea or juice or something on me - threatened to throw a heavy glass candle-holder at me - and smashed something of mine that I just bought.

The rest of the weekend was an effort to recover.

Actually, when I came home, W was eating something - said that she had been nervously eating all afternoon because she was anxious about avoiding the neighbor who wanted to invite us to dinner. Now, she likes this neighbor, and our kids play together well, so this was strange. In general, W doesn't like to be a guest. She much prefers to be a hostess. She doesn't feel comfortable having people (other than me) cook for her etc. That, couple with the fact that it is/was her time of the month and she was rather anxious in general, might explain why she was trying to avoid the dinner invite.

So, I, having just arrived home - was just standing there, processing the mail... when the phone rang. W insisted that I answer it, and when I did, it was the neighbor inviting us to dinner. (They had left a couple of messages during the day and W had not returned them.) So, I said "Thanks, but I think something is already cooking here. Maybe some other time." While I was talking, W was trying to give me signs, but I didn't understand them. This is a kind of situation which has happened many times in my marriage. I feel like a deer in the headlights. I know that whatever I do or say will be wrong. As soon as I hung up, W started in on me. I said the wrong thing. I don't understand anything. etc. etc. Then she started throwing things at me. I took a shower and left. When I came back, she was still in a foul mood. I ended up taking the two-year-old out for dinner by myself, and when I returned again W was OK - in a normal mood. I can just look at her and tell instantly when the storm has passed. But... I was still feeling like I needed to keep my distance. As soon as she took over 2-year-old - I went off to bed.

The rest of the weekend was typical - no great accomplishments - except I finally finished the 2nd rose-bed.

We spent almost all our time together.

W got her hair cut Sunday afternoon.

W went out shopping Sunday night about 10pm and returned after 1:30am. I went to bed after she left. I woke up at 2am - wondering why she didn't come to bed yet, found her downstairs and LB'ed a little. I asked her if "he" liked her new haircut. She said she was hurt - that she didn't do anything - except overspend - and that she was only shopping. I believe her - and in fact, I pretty much knew that - but was just probing her to find out.

I got back to bed at 3am. W came to bed about 5am. Of course, she blamed me for upsetting her so that she couldn't sleep. This morning, I overslept and got in to work about an hour late. Not good. Same old cycle.

-AD

Day 28 - brief update - as if "everybody" was sitting around breathlessly waiting for it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

This week we continue to recover from Friday's meltdown.

Anyway, after the usual "let's go somewhere" - except it was me who said that - we went to the public library to return overdue books "whoo hoo" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> - got there just at closing, W took in the books and we left - then, we drove toward home - until W said "let's just drive around". So, I passed the turnoff - we drove another 15 minutes and back home. Strange.

Can anybody guess what that's about?

I think she wants to do something different - is bored at home, but doesn't want to go to the trouble to look up something to do or somewhere to go. Funny thing is, I don't either - because I just can't figure out what we with 2-year-old can do after 8pm on a weeknight.

Gotta work now.

-AD

<small>[ June 05, 2003, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: AD ]</small>

AD:

Um... ...have you tried NOT 2 guess what she's thinking or interpret why she's doing what she's doing? Just being yourself?

Like, try doing/suggesting things you'd be interested in doing, and see whether she'd be interested or not. If not, don't make an issue of it. Don't interpret anything she says or does as an insult, even if it is.

Think about your thought processes and what effect they might be having on your interactions with her.

-2long

2Long,

Thanks for posting.

What you suggest makes sense - but maybe "companionship" (not neccesarily recreational) is one of my top needs - and I don't get much of it. For me, doing anything with my W (except arguing) is pleasant. So, I try to find things that she will like - since she is much harder to please than I am.

But, maybe you are right?

I should not try to find things she would like but just suggest things I would like?

Hmmm.

Did I miss something? Where does that fit in the MB system?

Seriously, I have almost completly forgotten what I like. I like visiting friends. W doesn't (not even her friends). She only wants to be a hostess - not a guest. I like just making something or doing house chores etc -alone or with my W. It doesn't happen often - and rarely without my W's severe stress. I like putting things away when I'm done with them. W likes to drop it wherever she is when she's finished with it.

Anyway, I feel tired now. You're not the first one who told me that I try too hard to please W.

We went to a "family counselor" - who told me (in individual session) that "I don't see you in this marriage at all. This marriage is all about her." I suppose it is.

Any suggestions on how to break that pattern?

-AD

Morning, Day 29.

I woke up this morning alone. W was in the other bedroom. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

At least our 2-year-old was in "my" room with me.

I hate going in circles.

-AD

Hey, just checking in.

The last few days, I've almost given up trying to do things to meet his needs. Of course I thank him for anything he says or does that is halfway pleasant. But he is so shut down, that our time together is very awkward. Everything is stilted, I don't feel I can be myself. He does not want to talk about much of anything, and I'm not pressing.

I think he wants me to give up. He's making good progress in this regard.

AD, hang in there. Remember, it's a 100 day plan. Some days are better than others. Stay the course.... just one day at a time. Nobody said this would be easy, right?

This week, I had a few "glipses" of my real H, not the sullen zombie that invaded his body. I am going to try and focus on that, in hopes I see more glimpses, and eventually he comes back. I'm the only one trying... if I give up, we don't have a chance at all.

Squeek,

I'm sorry you're having such a hard time of it.

I think I got such good results in the beginning because it was coming off of a time when I was telling W that I was ready for DV. She didn't want a DV, so was relieved that I had changed my tune. I think the 180 preoduced some good effects. Then, when I tried to settle in for the 100-day run, I got lazy and things have gone downhill.

I'm at work early today - since 5:30am, since we had a not-so-good convo this morning at 4am.

I acted unwisely.

W has been saying for a couple of days that there is something she feels that she should talk about. The hints that she gave indicated that it is some kind of health concern, but it could be something to do with OM also. I just don't know. So, last night she said she might talk about it (whaterver it is) after D was asleep - but she didn't. So, at 3:30am, I noticed that we were both momentarily awake, and I said "Hey, you awake?" And she startled and mumbled something. In a few minutes, she got up and went to read the news on the internet. I followed - suggested that it was a good time to talk and tried to make conversatio. Things became a little unpleasant, but not too bad. She made it clear she didn't want to talk - and was rather rude to me (she would say that I was rude to her, probably). Anyway, I was awake, it was 4am, and I didn't feel like sleeping - so I got dressed, came by to tell her I was going to work early. So, she followed me down to the kitchen - saying that I was going early just to hurt her or something - or to make some kind of statement. I tried to assure her that this was not the case, but rather that I tried to work late yesterday, but something came up and W called me - so I left before finishing - and since I was awake I might as well go in few hours early.

Convo went back and forth - became "relationship talk" (ooops!) - in which she again affirmed that she doesn't love me and never will and the only reason we are staying married is for the sake of the child etc. etc. usual stuff. I should have avoided that - could easily have done so by just leaving her alone.

Anyway, that was a step backwards to be sure.

Well, I'm here, I should work.

-AD

Hi AD
I've been reading your posts on this thread, and I recall some previous posts by you over the winter about your situation. Just wanted to stop by and encourage you. I think you should be the poster boy for Plan A! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Don't kick yourself when you "go in circles" or feel you're going backwards. You're still way ahead of many Plan A'ers. As long as you keep at it, trying with the intensity you seem to be now, you will know that you've done your best on Day 100.

AD:

"We went to a "family counselor" - who told me (in individual session) that "I don't see you in this marriage at all. This marriage is all about her." I suppose it is.
Any suggestions on how to break that pattern?"

Boy, this sounds familiar! I am a lot like you, only my W has all KINDS of things she wants me 2 do for her, or she can do on her own. She's busy ALL the time.

People on here kept telling me 2 focus on what my own needs are and doing things with my kids or for myself for a change. I tried, or thought I did a lot of times, but never really got it. Until about 3 or 4 weeks ago. I simply let go of the need 2 fix everything with our relationship. I've sort of resigned myself 2 maybe having 2 DV someday because my W won't let go of RM. And that's when things changed around here. My W 2k notice. I still do a lot for her, but I think a lot more about my own personal growth these days than I ever did before, and THAT is what's catching my W's attention. The other stuff is just... ...stuff.

I'm an atheist, and I'm finding it quite fascinating exploring spirituality topics. I just finished reading "The Power of Now" by Eckhart Tolle. It's all about focusing your energies on "being" in the now, rather than dwelling on the past or worrying about the fu2re. When you can really do that, the rest of your life sort of takes care of itself, and those around you really start 2 notice.

I think all of this is very much in line with MB methods.

regards,
-2long

Lots has happened. Nothing has changed. Nothing that I know of, anyway. Will write soon. Jet lagged.

No sooner did I leave town than H emailed me -- wanted to further separate finances; plans for kids' graduation, etc. He was vague, possibly misleading, about who would be coming to the graduation. Wanted to know if we could car pool or meet outside the high school beforehand.

So, with the diplomatic advice of a friend (emailed from out of town), I politely and charmingly asked him point-blank whether OW would be coming, and that I would be making arrangements accordingly. The next day, he didn't answer directly, but the implied message was that OW wouldn't be there.

I said then I would be happy to meet with him beforehand, go out to lunch afterwards to celebrate, etc.

He wound up coming alone, as oldest son couldn't make it. Looked morose during event and pretty morose during lunch. I was pleasant and chatty with his first wife (and him, when possible). I wore attractive dress (new). He looked so forlorn afterwards walking away that I suggested we car pool for second graduation this week.

Maybe that was unwise. Maybe I should be limiting contact more, for my own emotional health. Watching him ogle the cleavage on a 16 year old made me glad I'm not with him; looking at him being morose made me glad it wasn't my problem.

Anyway, it was as much of a Plan A as I could muster.

On Sunday, OW appeared to be engaging in some mild stalking behavior at a public event. I can't "prove" anything, but it was kind of strange.

That's as much as I can write now.

<small>[ June 09, 2003, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

A.M.M,

I read your posts.

It sounds like you are managing OK and
Your H isn't having any fun.

I don't know what further you can do. I haven't the slightest idea what's going on in his mind.

-AD

Update - day 30? now?

Things have been weird at home lately - which is to say - perfectly normal.

Plan A really seems stalled.

W finally got around to talking to me about the issue that was bothering her. Seems she's been drifting into an eating disorder. I'm glad she told me. She has a *huge* fear of becoming fat. She is very thin. She's been through this somewhat before. She'll get through it again.

Also, last night she saw OM as the U. Now, he knows when and where one of her classes is. She said it was strange, just to see him - apparently not speak to him (but I don't know for sure), and just each of them walk to their separate cars just like any other two students - when a couple of years ago they would spend hours on the phone talking accross the world (before he came here to be near her). In a way, what she was telling me was good. The A is mostely just a painful memory - not painful only because it was wrong - but because she can't have him. She is mourning, but it's not over - not really.

Then she was LBing me pretty bad - not intending to - just the repeat of the "You're an OK guy, but I never loved you" theme.

W's not sleeping normally - and now she is sick. She was up last night. After blowing me off earlier - telling me that I have "some characteristics of a stalker" - which is what I get for coming to see what she's doing in the house - which we live in together as man and wife - so that makes me a stalker. I told her I would make sure that it wasn't a problem - and went to bed. She came and woke me at something like 2 or 3am to help her move a bookcase. She's been sick since Saturday, but she doesn't rest. It's really hard for her to take care of a 2-year-old when she's not sleeping at night.

I really feel sorry for her. She is so miserable. She herself said that she has no root, no grounding. That really is true and it makes me angry - angry at her Mom who adopted her then treated her like some kind of dirty little slave. W told me that hanging over her bed at home was a sign with a quote from Pushkin - something like "A person must keep everything beautiful - beautiful thoughts, beautiful actions, beautiful clothes" etc. And all her childhood, she felt so ugly - that everything about her was ugly - and her Mom - who hung that sign, told her almost every day that she was "ugly" or "dirty" or "stupid" or ...

One time her Mom told her "After all my work, you are almost a person."

... and I am left with the mess ... and W is left to suffer through life.

W is beautiful - physically, and in her soul and spirit - and in the grace of her movements. I just wish she would sometimes stop tearing herself down - stop repeating to herself the poisonous lies her Mom told her. We often have arguments like this : She says "I'm so stupid" or fill-in-the-blank with some other negative adjective. I reply "No, you are intelligent". She then becomes angry with me - tell me that I am lying to her.

So for all the world (wide web) to see. W is a wonderful person, a beautiful person, a graceful person, an intelligent person. I hope some day she knows that.

-AD

AD,

Maybe try more dispassion, more fun? You are so anxious about her (which she calls stalking), and so caught up with her, that you are very vulnerable to her moods. That used to annoy my H. He wanted me to stay emotionally separate, and sometimes I couldn't. How about tell her, "Let's go to the movies!" "Let's go to the beach!"

Apparently she is trying to LB so that she can use your reaction as an excuse for her behavior. That's why it's so dangerous to be so vulnerable. Then you'll start messing up at work -- and that will provide her another excuse for her disaffection.

Tomorrow my stepson's graduation. We will be carpooling. A friend of mine thinks that's crazy. But I'll be in the backseat, he'll be driving -- the two kids assorted around us.

I don't expect to hear from H today. It's all so crazy.

These are his personal problems -- his emotions are so twisted up and suppressed I don't know what he's feeling either. But he must be having a good time -- OW looks better than she has in years, I'm told. But she did engage in quasi-stalking behavior around me last weekend. At a public gathering, had a weird fainting spell within 20 seconds of my speaking. Who knows what it all means? Weird.

As for university class, maybe you should escort her? Exposure to the OM could reignite things, unless she is firmly comitted to no contact, which she isn't, is she?

A.M.M,

Thanks for taking the time to comment...

I typed a long response but decided against posting all that.

We had a blowup last night.

-AD