Hi, I'm back from our trip, and wanted to check in. This was a trip that I really wanted, and he agreed to-- but he was pretty sullen and pouty the whole time with me. I had hoped we could spend time together-- but he was so distant that I just couldn't even bring things up. Then, at the end, he said he had been available the whole time. (I guess he demonstrated it by avoiding me, not speaking to me, answering in monosyllables or not at all when I spoke to him). I guess we both lost out.

Sometimes, we did okay-- either in groups of people, or just the two of us. Other times, it was so awkward between us that I just wanted to flee and be alone.

I/we did do some talking, and I did lots of "eyes wide open" observing. Some the the major considerations in this whole mess:
1. He is totally miserable. I suspect he could be clinically depressed. He is inconsolably unhappy about money/his lack of and our relationship. He sees these things as virually his whole life being messed up... but seems unable to DO anything, take any action. And of course, only action will improve either situation.
2. I am starting to have doubts about this working. I feel he resists acknowledging any positive change from me. He has been open that he is NOT sure we can make this work. I also have some doubts. I beleive that we can restore the love if we both do our plans. However, I am concerned that he is unable to compromise to find decisions that suit both of us-- it's either his way, or my way to him. And, I have questions about whether we have enough common ground to build on.

I've suspected over time, that he's really rather just give up (if we could do so nicely) rather than try. His words say he wants to make it work, and hasn't given up. But his actions are different.

He's very angry that he has not felt "supported" by me in doing things he wants to do. However, he does not know what he wants to do. (this does make it harder for me to support him in it!) He's mad at me, for not thinking his current job is "suitable" for him. (He is working in a min wage job with tips, with no regular schedule and lousy hours.) Previously, he has been in management jobs with large companies.... it's quite a step down.) I've kept waiting for him to "figure out" what he's going to do... and now, DUH, I realize that if I watch him, his actions tell me what he's decided to do. He's decided to work this awful job, regardless of how I feel about it. And, he's decided to be more upset, since then I have to cover more than half of our expenses. I feel pretty helpless to fix this, as it's of his own doing. And he seems unable to take any action to address it, he's paralyzed in his misery.

So, I'm not feeling so spiffy. I want to do my plan... then I get crazy because any contact has the potential to be awkward, or for me to be blamed for something, or for him to reject me, my ideas, etc. I can't live on a roller coaster like this. I think I have to do somethings for myself-- not instead of, but in addition to my plan to meet his needs. And I have to start considering how I will cope/go on if things are not salvaged. Otherwise, the background worry will make me crazy.

I think I am going to try some IC, in additon to our MC.

I wish one of us were doing well, so we could cheer the others on.

Welcome back Squeak,

I'm sorry your trip didn't go as well as you hoped.

One thing that occured to me is that maybe you need to back off telling your H to get a better job. For whatever reasons, that is where he is. Maybe it's better just to accept that, make whatever financial adjustments are required and try to enjoy the rest of life.

I know it's hard - but... From my personal experience, I have the feeling that no matter what I do, W will not be satisfied with me. Even though you are probably right that he could get better-paying work, there may be a lot of value in simply accepting him as he is right now. He *is* working, so it's not exactly laziness. Perhaps he has some fears related to the more challenging jobs that you propose for him. Listen to him. Be patient.

Oh, and if my advise doesn't fit. Ignore it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> My life is messed up and I have no right to give advice to anybody.

-AD

Yes, by all means do something for yourself. It will help you for whatever future lies ahead -- AND it will help him, because it's a drag to watch your spouse "work" on the marriage, when he/she doesn't seem to have anything else going on in his/her life.

"I love you greatly but I'm prepared to go on without you, if I must" is a stronger statement than "I love you and I desperately need you to make my life real."

To that end, we had a wonderful impromptu "party" at my place last night -- four friends with me, four with teenage son, four with teenage daughter. Three different parties in one house! That's what I've longed for: our house to be a loci of fun and warmth and affection again.

I'll try to do an update now...

I'm pretty confused.

I feel like I have been ambushed - again.

This seems to happen repeatedly in our marriage.

The evening started OK. W is sick and stayed home from the U. I still came home early as usual, but went and bought some grub first. W was reasonably satisfied with what I bought, but she cooked up a nice addition to what I brought.

We were both exhausted - sick and with not enough sleep. It was after 8 - maybe 8:15. All we had to do was last until 9:30 to give our 2-year-old her bath and put her to bed. There's no point in trying to do it earlier - since she will not sleep. So, we were just trying to stay awake and keep up with our child - when WHAM - W starts in on me about repairing and selling the old house. She would not stop. On and on. She demanded that I tell her exactly when it was going to be sold. I told her that I didn't know that - and could not tell her. She constantly pressed me for some promissed date - repeatedly insulted me, called me names, told me that I was a bad husband and father etc. Finally, after awhile, I said "time to give the baby a bath" - and started to do that. She followed me and kept chewing on me while I was trying to work with our child.

The details don't matter probably. Finally I said something that hurt her and she walked out without a work. I finished bathing my daughter, put her to bed and went to take a shower. D sleeps in the crib in the MBR now, so she was with me for a change. W went to sleep in the other room. I kind of liked it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I didn't see W this morning. I called home about 10am, and she started right back into the same thing. I hung up on her. I went home for lunch and she wasn't talking to me. I tried to do something with my daughter - which is the only reason I came home - and W grabbed a toy out of my hand and made it pretty clear that she intended to keep me away from D. I just left without a word. I don't want to argue in front of my child any more.

Let's make that a rule. No arguments in front of the child. I'll try. No arguments. <period> would be better, but that may be too much to expect.

I imagine that if we are divorced, I will really enjoy just having my daughter to myself for a weekend. It would be so much more relaxing without all the arguments and namecalling etc. Yes, I would miss her every day, but maybe I could survive. I don't really think I would miss my W very much. Probably I would, but right now I don't feel like I would.

-AD

AD and AM, thanks for your replies.

AD, I think you are right, about not bugging him to get a better job. He lost his good job in 1995, then started a business. After 2 years, it was clearly not working. He continued anyway until 2001, when we moved. Last year was the first time he came close to paying half our expenses. I make up the difference, and pay for all extras. He now has a huge hole in his resume and I think he will have trouble finding a good job again. I also think he resents our nice lifestyle, as putting pressure on him to earn more.

Stupidly, for all these years, I've been waiting for him to get a job that would enable him to at least split our expenses. It's quite clear that if that's what he wanted to do, he would have done it. I think he prefers to downscale. I think my success shellshocked him, to where he doesn't even want to try. For now, I'm just accepting what he's doing, and coughing up the money. I am not willing to do it forever, but for now, I won't cause waves or put pressure on him.

AM, I have realized the same thing that you said-- that I need to get on with life one way or the other. Today, I made an appt with an IC for me-- can't get in till next week, but I have an appt. I feel anti-depressants will help me cope, but also intend to get counseling for myself, not just meds.

This week, I am also researching some areas of interest for me, that I intend to pursue. I want to take dance lessons. I know it sounds so silly, but when we were dating, I gave up dancing, since H-to-be did not dance. Sometimes he'd bring a friend on dates, to dance with me, but only for a while. Well, I want to dance. And I'm looking to make it happen. I'm too old, and I'm going to do it anyway.

I'm also researching some job opportunities, for me. H had so much trouble with my big career, that I left it in 2000. Well, my savings are not lasting as long as they should, having to take up his slack. I know it might bother him for me to make more money than him, but if we D, I'll clearly need to be working, and I miss working. I was good at it. People at work would talk to me, I liked the challenge.

I feel like I have to go on with my life, one way or another. My mom thinks if I do this, he will become much more interested in me, our marriage... which rings true to the past. Whenever I have focused on him, it's been ugly.

I don't know that we can work this out. I have serious doubts about whether he can do POJA. And doubts that he can share his feelings and be honest. These have been issues for the whole time we've been together, it might be more than he has to give.

AD... your messy situation? How about this. When it's headed that way, just STOP. Say "this is not going well. Let's take a break and come back to it". Then DO NOT ENGAGE. Do not be goaded till you LB. Nip it in the bud, before you do or say something you regret.

I have serious doubts about my H's ability to do a relationship, too. Fortunately, perhaps, it's not a question at this point! He's not interested in a relationship with me right now!

Go ahead, Squeak, take the dance lessons! Sounds like a great idea! I have a friend who took up ballet over 40 and they told her she would never be able to dance "on point." Well, she does.

Yes, I think it often does become ugly when we focus too much on the other person. Best to dance.

By the way, I, too, think my "success" (although not a financial success, but professional one) threatened my H. Not much I can do about that now. I realize now that one of my emotional needs is that I hoped for a cheerleader -- someone to cheer me onward in a difficult endeavor, someone to dispense the reward pellets. Now I realize that my drive might have intimidated him, as he didn't have a vision to move towards. Oh well...I'm enjoying my own vision now!

Update - day 30-something,

Last night was better.

I think W realized she was pushing me to the edge. She had to back off.

So, after she called me at about quitting time and talked for almost an hour - saying all the "bad stuff" - while I just listened. Hooray for me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> - I went home and things were OK.

I cooked dinner and we went for a walk to the playground. Spent time looking at a map thinking of cities we might want to live in some day.

W was talking about things like having another child, going on a trip together and also moving to another city in a couple of years - all medium to long term plans for the future. I think she realized that in the event of D, she would be stuck - wouldn't be able to do a lot of things she wants to do - at least for several years.

I went to bed before her and she came there eventually - was talking to me at 2 or 3am. I don't remember what about. Oh yes, now I remember, she got the 2-year-old up, gave her a piece of chocolate - thought it was funny to see our little one snuggling between us eating chocolate at 2 or 3am - wanted me to look at it and "share the moment".

It's a roller-coaster ride for sure.

-AD

AD, I was doing some research today on how to meet H's EN's... this was part of homework from Steve Harley. At any rate, I found another site that was kind of interesting. It's called DivorceBusting.com (same title as one of the books by Michele Weiner-Davis). From the message boards, I got the gist that one of the things you do, is called a 180. I'm not totally sure, but from what I gathered, it's to do a behavioral 180, presumably on the behaviors that have been issues.

It sounded interesting, and I am headed to the bookstore to buy a copy if they have it. I thought you might want to check out the site, and if I think the book makes sense, I'll let you know.

Meanwhile, I am trying to find a balance, of sort of taking care of myself/getting on with my life (as opposed to "waiting for H to snap out of it").... and do my plan A. I do find myself dreading coming home, when he will be here.

So today, I am going to have some preplanned ideas for light convo, and perhaps prepare dinner for the two of us. Sometimes I feel like a struggling actress more than a wife trying to salvage a marriage. <grin>

Squeak,

I have that book. I have all those books. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I haven't tried to do the 180 conciously, but have noticed that when I happen to do one for whatever random reasons that it has a good effect.

For example, I really blew up when I found W emailing OM - just before this 100 day thing started. I left in the middle of the night - bought a "house for sale" sign, put a keyed lock on "my room" - and pretty much said it was over. W freaked.

Less that two weeks later, I caught OM in her car. I happened to be driving and passed them on the road. I followed, she parked somewhere, there was a confrontation - which I handled coolly. She was so surprised! I didn't ask questions about it. I didn't shout at her. I didn't say *anything* except to tell her that I was sorry that I frightened her. I think that 180 was something that got our 100 days off to a good start - altough things have gone downhell for awhile now.

Anyway, I think Divorce Busting is a good book. I haven't been to the web site.

-AD

UNBELIEVABLE EVENT! I just spent 9 HOURS with H!!! No LBs -- well, not much of anything, really -- but amicable, if distant. Drove to out-of-town commencement for stepson, with other kids. I was pleasant, cool. Drove back home in front seat with H driving (this was an unexpected event). Trying to find content-free areas of conversation was a challenge -- I really don't want to hear about his life with OW; I don't want to share mine right now. Then I realized he always liked silence best. Lots of that, then.

A few warm eye-catchings -- but not much more. I didn't want him to feel like I was pushing or wanting anything -- I also didn't want him to feel like I was pushing him away. Perhaps I succeeded.

Well, I survived!

A.M.M,

Congratulations!

Well done!

-AD

AM, way to go! 9 hours! You deserve a medal! (or at least a massage and manicure).

AD, I did go to the bookstore. They did not have Divorce Busters, but did have her book called Divorce Remedy, and it talks about the 180s. I also got Phil McGraws Relationship Rescue book and workbook.

Both of these are consistent with the MB ideas, as they focus on controlling yourself, changing yourself, etc in order to make changes in your relationship. I realize that I have been neglecting myself, "waiting" and "hoping" for things to be better between us. Well, it's not working. So I'm going to read the Divorce Remedy, try some 180's... and also go through the relationship rescue.

AD, especially since you have the book, and say that 180s have worked well for you in the past, you might want to re-read that part and pick some 180s that are good for you, and your situation!

If it works, great. If it does not, it will help me to examine my roles in this mess, and make some positive changes. That must be a good thing. My H is very anti-Phil McGraw so I will be doing this somewhat secretly.

I have also scheduled an appt with a local counselor for anti depressants to help me cope. Might do some IC as well as the MC. I feel more empowered. This is more like ME. It's more like the real me, the one H loved. I will be careful not to do independant actions at his expense, but I need to go on with MY life, in addition to working on my plan A. With the strong resistance he shows to my meeting his needs, I can't very well just focus on that.

Squeak, sounds like a good idea. I've seen some of the divorcebusters stuff, and it was on my mind yesterday.

I've always been the one trying to get things to work, trying to appease, etc. So I cut it out. By moving in with OW, he's escalated things way beyond any efforts I might make. HE would have to make efforts big-time to turn things around. And so far, I don't see any evidence of that or interest in it. So I'm going to be sweet, and pleasant, and Plan A when I see him -- but I'm not going to put one more penny into this bank.

That's what made yesterday a little rough. Trying to limit the energy I give him, trying not to be available to him, trying to protect MYSELF from having more thoughts about him than I need to -- all the while trying to keep the door open for change with Plan A. A Plan A while you are substantially in Plan B!

For example, H seemed a bit surprised that I didn't sit up front for the ride to commencement -- his son sat there instead. But I knew I would have the ride back, and that would be exposure enough. I just looked pleasantly confused, and asked son what he wanted. He said he didn't care, but we were already at the respective places we would sit and nobody expressed a strong enough desire to switch. So be it.

Ex-wife had prepared to tables -- one indoors and one outdoors. It was kind of a strange arrangement; perhaps she had hoped to be diplomatic. There was no logical way to break the groups into two -- so I waited till the last chair, which turned out to be the table other than H's. So be it.

Part of 180, as I understand it, is to move on. To make no apparent efforts to reconnoiter with H. If they want you, they know where they can find you.

But really, at this point it would take more than a few pleasant times to bring us back together. He would have to admit he made a mistake and make plans to move out. More than likely, he's too lazy to do this till something goes boom. So there's no point in me making plans with him in my future for now.

I still feel like he's my husband -- it was so apparent last night, as we were in the car side-by-side again -- so I'll make what efforts I can. But I won't throw my energy into the toilet over this.

Usually, I wake up with a mild depression, realizing what's happened to my marriage, not being able to cope with it yet. Oddly, it wasn't there this morning. Even though nothing's changed. Strange, eh?

Greetings!

Yesterday I read the entire book Divorce Remedy, and I found it both empowering and motivating. It seems totally consistent with MB principles, but was extremely helpful to me, in a few ways:
1. specific goal short term goal setting for observable baby steps
2. specific plans to try new behaviors (180s)since your old behavior is most assuredly wrong.
3. emphasis on working on yourself (since it's what you can control). Not just working on your plan to meet ENs.. but things that will serve you well in getting on with your own life...and having a strong and positive self image, which is needed whether you can fix your M or not.

I feel more energized and hopeful, more in control. AD, after reading the whole thing, I am more convinced than ever that some 180s would be a good thing for you.

Some of the 180's I'm thinking of:
1. no mention whatsoever of him getting a better job.
2. no attempt for him to work less, in order to spend time together.
3. do things for myself-- sign up for a class, investigate a part time job, join a gym.
4. stop talking about "us", the relationship, the issues. Nothing, nadda for the rest of this month, maybe longer.
5. avoid being teary, upset in his presence.
6. be silent. don't always fill the silence. Be responsive when he speaks, but only carry part of the weight in initiating and sustaining convo.
7. When he does not want to do rec time with me, go anyway, by myself. (unless he says he has issues with it, and this would be a LB)
8. Do not try to eat meals together at home; offer what I'm having if I think it's something he likes, but otherwise, just let him have what he wants, when he wants it.
9. Do most of my marriage reading, homework, etc privately-- with books, workbooks etc not evident in the house.

that's a start. Hey, what I've been doing isn't working, it's time to start some things that work better for me, and assess how well they work for us.

PS, is my #7 above a LB?

Any 180 thoughts for me, Squeak?

H phoned this morning, mentioned OW by name for the first time to me -- a downer, to be sure. He was trying to get the kids at his house for dinner tonight, which he did. Another downer, though the kids don't seem to be enthusiastic about going. They spent all day hanging out here. Hard to read.

I was kind of down when he phoned. A favorite pet might be dying. I spent most of the morning at the vet's. I didn't give him any of this background. Why, if he doesn't seem to give a damn.

I did try the silence routine in the car. Oh well...kind of a depressing day...

AM, if you think you'll be in the car with him... rather than just silence, consider making about 3 minutes of pleasant, upbeat dialogue, then saying you need to catch a catnap.. and doze or pretend to. So instead of being silent (possibly awkward) bubble a little, then take a nap while he drives?

If he mentions OW's name... maybe interrupt and end the convo. "oh, someone's at the door, gotta run, bye".

What are your typical contacts, and context? I get the impression that current interactions are somewhat civil but subdued?

Civil but subdued pretty much captures it. I might add that by nature I am somewhat emotional, reactive, and expressive -- so "subdued" might in itself be a 180.

However, I am concerned that being subdued is being taken for acquiescence and submission. Inevitably, there must be some acquiescence and submission, I'm not going to beat my fists against the wall and weep every time I see them together, it would be pointless and counterproductive. However, I think their public behavior has been tacky, vulgar, and offensive to me and the community at large (won't get into the latter). I think he's making a terrible mistake. But HE has to see that; there's no point in my preaching.

The usual context nowadays is that he phones looking for his son, inviting him to have dinner with "us" -- us being him and OW. Son has feelings he keeps close to his chest. But the "us" he refers to is the force that destroyed our home and our family. It is offensive to call in leaving "us" messages. It's offensive that he thinks he can park another woman next to him at a dinner table and in his bed and thinks everything will be the same for him, the kids, and our friends.

Neither of them are short on offensiveness -- but my caustic tongue was an LB I was long unaware of. There's no point in me saying anything more. It has to play out.

But is there something more I could be doing?

It is interesting that the usual contact up to now was email -- now more often it's a phone call or phone message. I don't think this is a positive sign -- I think he thinks things are becoming "normal." That's baloney.

In my case, I think the "civil and subdued" thing has become counterproductive. But I don't know what else to do.

<small>[ June 15, 2003, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

PS -- In initial communiques in the first weeks of separation, I was friendlier, chattier, even though he was unresponsive. I told him I missed him, etc.

Cooler response in later weeks may have elicited a response, initially -- now it may be more a convenience to justify his own hard-heartedness.

I might add that he was very upset when I asked him to leave, even heartbroken (though he wouldn't agree to NC with OW) -- so much of the hard-heartedness has occurred during separation.