Yay Jen! That worked out well! And congrats on taking the time to put some pants on! hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You know Jen, stop by my thread and just read for a bit. Take some strength and comfort from me (if you can) that things will and can get better, but you have to do things for you.

One thing that you said a little while back that struck me was that you as a FWS and him as a BS has all the power. No, you are wrong, he is now a WS and you are the BS. You don't have power over him anymore than he has power over you. I am so glad CM pointed out about how would you feel dating someone who treats you like H does, and your realisation that you wouldn't want that.

Jen, you and I both know how foolish and deeply destructive we have been. Does that mean we should wear sack cloth and ashes for the rest of our lives? Does that mean we don't deserve to be treated with love and respect? Does that mean we should just put up with sloppy seconds? No, Jen it doesn't, because we have also learned - the hard way. We have travelled painful personal journeys in search of becoming better people and making amends for our horrendous mistakes. But one day, we have to move on from that.

Jen, I do hope you are turning a corner as I am, because I feel you deserve so much better in your life.

Take care of yourself and wishing you well from London.

Lisa

So, he didn't do as you assumed he would, did he?
You called and left a message about your car and when he didn't call back in the time frame you thought he should, you automatically started with the negative thinking. Notice too that when he did come over to take care of the issue, Jen, you kind of mocked him about his award. If you had won that award and he said "so how's the award winning girl?" you probably wouldn't have felt like that was much of an acknowledgement or that there was any admiration on his part for a job you did well. He probably didn't appreciate the glib comment about it, and chose to leave instead of say something in reply and have it end up in an arguement.

I'm not trying to beat you up here, really <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> but from what I can gather from what you post, there is some difficulty seeing yourself objectively in your interactions with him. You see yourself as "having strong boundaries" and routinely see everything about him in a negative light. Just remember there is a time and a place for those strong boundaries.If those same boundaries are thrown up regardless of the situation, especially when there is an opportunity to mend and build (as there was if you would have simply offered honest praise and admiration for his award)you will continually lose God given opportunities to bridge the gap between you and your H.

<small>[ May 13, 2003, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: mthrrhbard ]</small>

Biting my tongue from saying too much....

Notice too that when he did come over to take care of the issue, Jen, you kind of mocked him about his award. If you had won that award and he said "so how's the award winning girl?" you probably wouldn't have felt like that was much of an acknowledgement or that there was any admiration on his part for a job you did well.

mtthrbrd, you are taking this way too seriously. I don't think JB was "mocking" him at all, but instead trying to be lighthearted. She isn't missing God Given Opportunities with a man who has 2 OW who are at least EA's. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

So you think she handled it just perfectly? If marriage builders serves only to be a place for "rah, rah" then there will be no marriage building going on in this place. MB is not about commiserating and building a "you go girl" team.

There are two sides to this picture and if Jen's marriage is going to be helped it's better if she gets some objective reflection on how non productive interactions could possibly be made positive. I think that if Jen's H had mentioned this prestigous award in the manner Jen did, she would have been hurt, I know I would have. Yes, she's missing opportunities to rebuild her marriage.

Her H isn't perfect,far from it, but Jen's got work to do herself if she truly wants a healed, "better than before" marriage that many of us oldtimers have. If every post she gets serves only to justify her subjective view of things then this place isn't serving the purpose it used to serve when I first came here 3 1/2 years ago. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

So you think she handled it just perfectly? If marriage builders serves only to be a place for "rah, rah" then there will be no marriage building going on in this place. MB is not about commiserating and building a "you go girl" team.

I am pretty sure if you read several of my posts on here and everywhere else, you would know that is not what I think. No one handles things perfectly. We all need fine tuning. But this award he got because one OW nominated him and then he had 3 tickets and didn't invite Jen and then I think you took her comment way too sensitively. We also try to help posters who are emotionally being used and abused. We don't know everything about her H I know, and his thoughts and attitudes, but he isn't posting here is he? So we are only speculating his thoughts, and listening to Jen's. I still think that when he has 2 OW in his life, that it is dangerous to get Jen to bend over backwards because she is a FWS.

I'm afraid I must chime in here on mtthrbrd's side on this issue.

The fact that the OW nominated him, or that he did not invite JB, or that he does any number of other nasty things in no way reduces the value and importance of the award TO HIM. And this is what we should all strive for; to identify those opportunities to praise our spouses for their merits, and not continue to color everything about them through OUR lens on their behavior.

It's like saying that we would not properly acknowledge our child's merits because he/she routinely misbehaves. The behavior and the award are two distinct things, and should be treated that way.

Not doing it is NOT a failure; we're only human. But being aware of it for the next time is the value of this lesson.

Spacecase,
I agree with you. It is important to him and she should treat it as such. My point earlier was that I think mthrbrd took it too sensitively. However none of us really know that until Jen Brown comes back and can tell us the tone of her voice and how she meant that comment to sound. I took it as a lighthearted conversation, not as "mocking" his award. If my mother or brother or spouse or anyone won an award, I could see myself saying "how's the award winning guy - or girl" without thinking anything of it. I would just be acknowledging that I knew about his award.

double post

<small>[ May 13, 2003, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: adgirl48 ]</small>

I too agree with adgirl 48 that in no way was the following statement of Jen's a mocking of her H's award:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I tried to be lighthearted and asked him "So how's the award winning guy doing?" and he said he had to go (sounded like the other line) and so I said, okay then, bye, and I hung up. No additional calls either!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But I would like to know specifically, from those that beleived she did the wrong thing, how they would have handled the situation if they had been in Jen's shoes. Any takers?

Quite the debate folks. Allow me to explain and defend MYSELF perhaps??

I made the remark, "So how's the award winning boy doing?" in a sincere and cheerful tone. I wasn't mocking him. None of you were on the phone to hear it. I intended to lead into a real congratulations, but he said he had to go as soon as I said that, so I did the "divorce-busting" "180" thing to do, and said "okay then, bye" and hung up first.

I think I did pretty well considering all the resentment I felt about the award being the result of his GF's nomination, and being excluded from the award gala dinner too.

I have NO GUILT about how I handled it mthrhbrd. I can live with it.

Yes I do tend to expect the worst from him. It's how I keep from being disappointed I guess. He has truly got a long track record of not treating me well, and I can't put that out of my mind, nor should I.

Jen

I made the remark, "So how's the award winning boy doing?" in a sincere and cheerful tone. I wasn't mocking him. None of you were on the phone to hear it. I intended to lead into a real congratulations, but he said he had to go as soon as I said that, so I did the "divorce-busting" "180" thing to do, and said "okay then, bye" and hung up first.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . That's all. And <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>Quite the debate folks. Allow me to explain and defend MYSELF perhaps?? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First off, nobody was saying anything that you need to "defend" from. You are doing the best you can under the circumstances, and that is perfect, Jen. No defending necessary.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I made the remark, "So how's the award winning boy doing?" in a sincere and cheerful tone. I wasn't mocking him. None of you were on the phone to hear it. I intended to lead into a real congratulations, but he said he had to go as soon as I said that, so I did the "divorce-busting" "180" thing to do, and said "okay then, bye" and hung up first.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're defending again. No need. Nobody said we heard it. We were, I think, making a general comment that given the importance of the award to your H, MIGHT he not have taken your lighthearted approach as "mocking"...nobody made any other comment.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I did pretty well considering all the resentment I felt about the award being the result of his GF's nomination, and being excluded from the award gala dinner too.

I have NO GUILT about how I handled it mthrhbrd. I can live with it. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These comments show that there was some resentment, which would perhaps "show" in your tone, it shows yopu're defending yourself again, which is unnecessary, especially if you don't feel "guilty", as you say...so what prompts the defensiveness?

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Yes I do tend to expect the worst from him. It's how I keep from being disappointed I guess. He has truly got a long track record of not treating me well, and I can't put that out of my mind, nor should I.
Jen </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen; "What you resist, persists", "Self-fulfilling prophesy", etc.

The longer you "hold onto" this, the longer it will appear in your life. And the longer you hold on to your "right" to be a victim, ("nor should I"), the longer you WILL be a victim.

These are YOUR choices to make. And the quality of your life and your relationships depends on those choices.

Neither Mtthrbrd nor I said what we said to accuse, hurt, make you feel guilty, or tell you you were wrong. I'm sorry you took them that way. And I'm sorry if anything I said hurt you, as that is never my intent.
Blessings, and peace.

anyone going to meet TMCM's challenge?

<small>[ May 13, 2003, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: adgirl48 ]</small>

Spacecase,
I am in no way trying to offend you, but I have made some observations in these boards sometimes. Not just you at all, I just wanted to touch on it bc of your last poster. I feel like some people just think we should smile and take crap and just keep on keeping on and not have any resentment or anger or fear or hurt whatsoever, but just smile smile and just move on. It is hard to move on if you aren't allowed to express your feelings in the first place. I would have been defensive if I was jen with mthrbrd's comments esp. simply because she doesn't seem to know Jen's story. Maybe i am wrong but she doesn't. So am I not allowed to be defensive when people say things to me that are absolutely not true? The problem is when resentment and anger are allowed to fester and to go on and on. I think the best way to rid of it is to say, hey, I am offended here- or whatever- and then move on. I think that was what Jen was doing, not being defensive. Again, I am not in her head, but it seems like a lot of people on her boards encourage her to be emotionally free while at the same time holding her in bondage and telling her what she thinks. I guess I am saying this because sometimes I feel like people do that to me too. And I really don't think her comment was a big deal at all, which was the point in the first place. I saw no sarcasm in it. I agree with Harley to a degree when he says codependency theory is ruining lives or whatever he says- he has an article? Of course we care about what others think of us- so of course she will get defensive (as would I) when someone acts like she is tryiing to be sarcastic or whatever when she isn't.

Again Spacecase, I have read many of your posts and I am not trying to offend you because I do respect your opinion- just an observation I have seen....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by adgirl48:
<strong>anyone going to meet TMCM's challenge?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Considering the state of their marriage, and knowing what his typical reactions have been, and knowing that my feelings were definitely biased, If I really meant to congratulate him on his award, I would have made it more serious and straight-forward, rather than the less-formal, perhaps roundabout "how's the award-boy doing?", but that's just me...I'm not JB and I hope never to be more than a sounding-board and another opinion to weigh among many.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by adgirl48:
<strong>Spacecase,
I am in no way trying to offend you, but I have made some observations in these boards sometimes. Not just you at all, I just wanted to touch on it bc of your last poster. I feel like some people just think we should smile and take crap and just keep on keeping on and not have any resentment or anger or fear or hurt whatsoever, but just smile smile and just move on. It is hard to move on if you aren't allowed to express your feelings in the first place. I would have been defensive if I was jen with mthrbrd's comments esp. simply because she doesn't seem to know Jen's story. Maybe i am wrong but she doesn't. So am I not allowed to be defensive when people say things to me that are absolutely not true? The problem is when resentment and anger are allowed to fester and to go on and on. I think the best way to rid of it is to say, hey, I am offended here- or whatever- and then move on. I think that was what Jen was doing, not being defensive. Again, I am not in her head, but it seems like a lot of people on her boards encourage her to be emotionally free while at the same time holding her in bondage and telling her what she thinks. I guess I am saying this because sometimes I feel like people do that to me too. And I really don't think her comment was a big deal at all, which was the point in the first place. I saw no sarcasm in it. I agree with Harley to a degree when he says codependency theory is ruining lives or whatever he says- he has an article? Of course we care about what others think of us- so of course she will get defensive (as would I) when someone acts like she is tryiing to be sarcastic or whatever when she isn't.

Again Spacecase, I have read many of your posts and I am not trying to offend you because I do respect your opinion- just an observation I have seen....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not offended in the least, adgirl. I am a firm believer in that everyone has a right to choose how they feel, how they act/react and what they do in their lives.
My only reason for being here is to help others as I was helped, and I believe the best way to do that is to call it like I see it, and express what has worked/not worked for me in my experience. This is not to say that my experience is necessarily the same as anyone else's, or that what I say has any value.
I don't need to be right, and I am not easily offended.
If you (and JB) feel you have the right to be defensive, angry, resentful, or whatever else you feel, that is your right, and I respect it. I may not agree with it for my life and my experience, but I respect it.
My reply in no way attempted to make me right and you or JB wrong, it was, again, my read and opinion on what you both said. No value there if you don't think there is. And no offense taken.

All my love,♥
SC

Not that anyone asked me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , but here's my interpretation of mthrrhbard's original advice/comment:

Intentions have nothing to do with perceptions.

Jen, I don't think anyone ever thought that your INTENDED to hurt your H. However, due to the choice in words, it is possible that your H's PERCEPTION of your words was not favourable.

The goal in our plan A is to become the best person we can be. Part of that (a small part of that I might add... as there are 100's of "small" parts in a plan A), is to learn to choose our words carefully. "Think before you speak" is something we've heard our entire lives... but rarely do we REALLY put it into practice.

Take or leave what I say. It's only my opinion. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Karen
(I'm from Canada... I can't help but take the "peacemaker" role! LOL ).

If you (and JB) feel you have the right to be defensive, angry, resentful, or whatever else you feel, that is your right, and I respect it. I may not agree with it for my life and my experience, but I respect it.

I guess my point in saying that, was I like to express my anger or resentment right when it happens instead of letting it build up;. That way I will get over it, put it in the past, and not let it fester. That is why I come to these boards. I write it out, observe it, move on and get over it. And hope that along the way, I help someone see that they aren't the only ones hurting, and hopefully on my good days give some advice worth someone out there taking, so they won't make the same mistakes I did....Thanks Spacecase for your point of view.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I appreciate hearing different perspectives and know enough to take or leave what you folks have to say. Thanks for your thoughts everyone, but today I choose to leave much of it.

I don't want or need any further input on how things went with my H last night. I choose to wait to see what HE actually thinks of what I said, rather than speculating about it.

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

<small>[ May 13, 2003, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>