I don't buy excuse of being afraid. If that's true then he is saying he'll never be able to break free!
Simple, move his stuff out, tell her it's over and if any trouble she'll wind up where her BF is. Turn the worm back on her as to being afraid to do anything!
All you have to do is report any threats she makes and get a restraining order. Put the fear back to her!
Nough said? I would not let anyone control my life with threats. BTW, you can get a license to carry a weapon based on threats to your life!
LouLou

Mimi 1254 - first just let me say that my name is Mimi and my birthday is 12/64 so I always read your threads but I don't think that I have ever responded - but ok - I think that you should stick with your original plan - if you want to buy a house by yourself buy a house - but don't buy one just to get away - buy one that you really love and want to make your own - especially by yourself not with him but by yourself - then if and when he is serious about ending his affair and getting back together - you two could either sell or move in together - don't let him give you more money for a down payment - he is just trying to ease his conscience - Don't fall for the lines he throws out - try and stay strong and wait for his actions to speak louder - (way louder) than his words... You are doing this for yourself now - you are at this moment by yourself - he has no say in what you decide you stay strong.... And if he is sincere it won't matter whether you live in an apartment or a house "that isn't up to his standards" if he wants to be with you - then you two will be there or whereever together... Mimi

I feel good. Although I goofed yesterday, I'm back in PLAN B.

Something is probably going to happen soon. WS has been BEGGING to see me. Even almost tricked me, asking "Are you getting ready to go to the gym?". It's almost laughable. He even asked if I would consider coming to live with him in his CONDO. You know, the condo where he has been playing house with the OW. He's getting pretty desperate. OK, that was our LAST conversation. Also, wanted to put MY new house in both of our names. I have refused and have gone dark again. Don't laugh, I know I have a high likelihood of coming out into the light.

Will keep you posted.

Hi Mimi,

Sounds like you are nearly there. WH is starting to get really antsy, about the house and about your independence! Gotta love it!

Stay strong. My concern is: why do you keep talking to him if you're still in Plan B?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Mimi,
I've been following, just not much to add to the good advice you are getting.
Glad you're back to Plan B and knowing what you have to do!
You have lots to hope for, just don't give up too much too soon.
Nothing new on my end, and certainly nothing much to show me signs of hope. Just trying to keep focused on daily living and keeping head above water financially. Kids are showing signs of stress and I'm going to inquire about counseling this week. Man, I hate this!
I'll be following your progress even if I'm not replying!

IS GIRL:

I've been talking to him because I have goofed the past two days. He won in his pursuit of me. I have to get back on track.

I'm a poor PLAN B student but I think things are working out alright.

I know things are awful in his fantasy world. That gives me satisfaction right now as I get busy in the process of moving.

LEARNIN:

I will keep check on you.

Mimi,

Sorry to miss out on so much, but I was flying home from my training. Thank God I am home again. But that is another thread.

First off, a quick note. Look at your last post. IT SAYS IT ALL! All in one simple sentence. That sentence tells you where you are, and where you should be. What was that sentence?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He even asked if I would consider coming to live with him in his CONDO. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Read this over and over. Look at it from all angles. The first impression is...ISNT THIS THE PLACE HE CANT LIVE BECAUSE HE FEELS THREATENED BY THE ow. If that were true, then it isnt a very loving act to bring you into a war zone!

Come on. You know the answer. You have known the answer all along. You know Mr. Mimi better than ANYONE! And this is where I am going to enter the fray about Plan B.

You are right about Steve Harley. He is very much into the Harley plan. But he also believes that it has to be massaged...that it isnt all cookie cutter.

In my case, the first problem in Plan B with keeping NC with my wife was the kids. They were living with me, and some contact was required. In order to stay in Plan B, but also be the father to my kids, I had to find a way to stay in NC when NC wasnt possible. Confused? Well, let me explain. Everytime she came by, or called in order to see the kids, "I stayed on message." You will hear me say this over and over throughtout this. Stay on message! She would want to talk about something upcoming with the kids, for example, and then would try to steer the conversation to us or even idle chit-chat. I cut that off IMMEDIATELY! I began to sound like a broken record. I repeated over and over again in these situations, the terms of Plan B and of her recovering any kind of relationship with me. And then I hung up, or I walked out of the room. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS...I ended the discussion and would not let it resume. Even if she wanted to approach this the right way after that, I had decided that when she decided to cross MY BOUNDARIES, there would be a penalty to pay. And that penalty was an immediate cessation of any negotiations and immediately moving back within my front lines (I am going to use military jargon here, because it fits...you are in a war right now Mimi!). Whether you like him or not, tell me what happened with Ronald Reagan at Rekavik with Gorbachev? Well, Gorby comes in wanting to negotiate a reduction in nukes on his own terms. Reagan looks at him, tells him that his plan of trust but verify is the only workable plan...and then Reagan walks out of the meeting. Case closed. No more discussion. The terms of the US were spelled out cleanly. Gorby could go for them, or walk away...but there was now no in between. Same went for my marriage, and where yours is now.

And just like in the example above of Reagan...this is scary stuff. You are in uncharted territory with your husband. You know him, but you still dont know how he is going to react to all of this. There are signs on what is going on. You know all the statistics. You know the success rate of the Harleys. You even know a lot of marriages like the Mortarmans. But there is still the unknown. Where "nukes" can be launched, and life as you know it ends.

But just as in Reagans case, I think you are going to find that negotiating from a position of strength is the ONLY way that your husband is going to come back. My wife said early on in our recovery that one of the first glimpses out of the fog was when I began to stand up to her. I asked her when that was. Know when? When I started Plan B!! She began to have respect for me again. She began to be able to hold up the life she was living and start to seethat it did not even compare with the life she had, or could have, with me. But it wasnt an easy process.

In the analogy with Reagan...after Reagan walked out, Gorby did send couriers over, asking to negotiate, coming up with alternative plans. At one point, he even came up with a plan that was 99% what Reagan had asked for. So, why did Reagan not go for it? Because the same reason that YOU MUST NOT BACK DOWN! It is a ploy. Your husband is sincere, so was Gorby. But, they are sincerely wrong. You have spelled out the way back in clear terms. And you walked out of the negotiating room.

The next sound you want to hear is the "courier" stating that he has met your demands. Then and only then will you walk back into that room and begin negotiating on HOW this will all be played out.

Now, I will pul away from my good friend Chris here for a minute. I know where his heart is, and you need to heed what he is saying. YOU CANNOT BACK DOWN. But, I have found in diplomatic, or military negotiations, there must always be a channel for the "enemy" to send info and discuss options. You dont have to reply, just as Reagan didnt reply to Gorbys couriers, except to say that Reagan had spelled out the plan...take it or leave it.

You must massage Plan B...but all the time having your head right where Chris is talking about...you are in Plan B. I did not at the time think that my three or four "talks" with my wife during Plan B, was necessarily a bad thing. Sure, I had broken NC. But, let me show you in a military sense, what you are in for.

You are sitting across an open field from the enemy. You hve battled this enemy for awhile. The enemy has been sneaky, and at times, waved the surrender flag, only to shoot at you when you get out of your foxhole and try to meet him halfway across that field.

You have now dropped leaflets (Plan B Letter) on the other side, spelling out how any terms or surrender will be accepted. And the fact that only the complete surrender will be accepted. And then you sit in your hole and wait.

The enemy waves the white flag. What do you do? if you stick to a pure Plan B, then you just sit there because you have no communication, and have no idea if he is meeting your terms of surrender (laying down arms, etc). So, the enemy gets NO response to his flag, gets scared, and crawls back into his hole. He has no idea what to do next.

Now, here is how we handle this (and how I handled my wife). The white flag goes up. I immediately call out my translator (who speaks fogese!) and I begin to broadcast the PBL over and over again. This is a one way communication. It lays out what he must do (lay down his arms, come out with hands up, proceed to the middle of the field, lay down in the prone position, etc). I do not get in a discussion with him. The PBL has already spelled everythign out. He has been promised fair treatment, as long as he adheres to the provisions of the PBL.

Mimi, make no mistake...what you are asking for is the surrender of your husband. Plain and simple. You have the power now. As is evidenced by his actions lately, HE KNOWS HE HAS LOST THE WAR! But even with that knowledge, he is still unsure of your treatment of him, how he will be treated as a POW. Little does he know that you wont treat him as a POW, but instead as the Prodigal son, as he came home.

But for now, he only speaks Fogese. He is scared. His whole world, his reality, his "truth," has now been turned upside down AGAIN. Nothing makes sense to him. Does it make any sense to leave someone out there, alone and afraid, with no comfortable way out.

Now, some will say "Well, he has the letter." Look, that letter is probably in his pocket, or thrown on the ground. In his mind, he remembers what he read. But he still doesnt believe it. But he knows he has no other way. So he reaches out to you, to find a comfortable way for him to come out. He will broadcast back to your lines certain demands of his own, ones that will make him less scared. But remember, he is the one that lost. He is surrendering, not you!. All that should be broadcast back to him is the same boring, tired, worn out message "NC with OW, NC letter, counseling, blah, blah, blah." After awhile, as he looks around at his hopeless position, as he continually hears everytime he contacts you the same message, he realizes "What choice do I have? If I stay, I die. If I go, I MIGHT die." He must decide whether or not he can trust you. Plan A put that trust in his mind and heart. And so, he lays down his arms, puts his hands in the air, and walks home.

I am tearing up as I write this. This is not natural! For the past months, this same person was destroying you, bombarding you with pain, taking your life away. And now, he has the audacity to want to negotiate. And after he realizes that he can no longer fight this, now you have to open your arms and bring him home. The parrallel between this and the end of the Civil War (or the War of Northern Aggression as we call it here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). How do you one day fight to the death, and the next day become brothers and friends? Believe me, postwar reconstruction IS the hardest part! I am living it.

To sum this up, I have to slightly disagree with Chris, only in this one instance. He is right...YOU MUST STICK WITH PLAN B! You must not back down. there is now only one safe way back for you, and even for him. You see, unless he comes back on your terms, you will always question whether he is back for good. And you will take out your hurt on him. When he surrenders, he is going to try to trust you not to destroy him. It is then that you show the grace of God and dont give him what he deserves!

But the disagreement I have is that while maintaining NC with the "enemy" is what you are doing, there still must be diplomatic channels. At first the enmy will try to abuse those channels, just as my wife tried on her visits. It is then that you reiterate your demands, and show the courier the door. After awhile, the enemy will see that these channels are only one way...surrender or "die." Of course, for all the hall monitors here, I AM NOT ADVOCATING VIOLENCE...I am just using an analogy to get my point across.

Without that open channel, he cant test the waters to see if you mean it. He cant get thru the process that he needs to go thru in order to be ready to give up. He is afraid, panicked and under seige right now. He needs to hear that message over and over again.

So, my advice? Plan B, Plan B, Plan B. And if he calls, or tries to make contact, send him the message..."Your safety is assured if you lay down your arms, proceed forward with your hands on your head, and lay down in the middle of the field." Play it over and over again.

Mimi, you are doing great. I only write this long because you are the closest on this website to making it! You really are.Tha tscared man is in his foxhole, cowering in fear. not from some lame OW. He fears you! He fears what he would do to himself if he were in your shoes. Stand firm. and then when he walks thru the front door with his hands up, and the OW gone, then you can show him just what a woman he has!

I am praying. Stay on your knees Mimi. God will get the message to him.

In His arms.

Mimi,

My feeling is don't rush into a house you don't like.

I do believe recovery will be easier in a place where both you and WS will feel comfortable together.

My question is:

What is his plan for breaking off the affair? What exactly is his plan? Isn't he currently living in the condo with OW? Or is she living somewhere else?

If he is breaking off the affair, how exactly is he planning on doing it? What exactly is he waiting for? is this a, I'll do it in a month, or I'll do it in two months, or what? Hmm... what is he waiting for if OW is indeed this terrible, vindictive, low class, dangerous person?

Maybe he should give Steve a call for advice.

the gated community may not be such a bad idea if he is fearful of being stalked or harassed by this woman. Steve describes how, in order to recover, people even move away far from OP, even though it may involve considerable inconvenience. So the gated community could possibly be helpful in marital recovery. But, if it is not your first choice of where to live, I would not consider it until WS has committed to moving there with you. And there is alot of other things that need to happen first.

I guess you do need to stay in your plan B. I understand how weak you feel because I was that way too.

<small>[ July 22, 2003, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: espoir ]</small>

Mimi,

Did you have your session with Steve Harley yet? I'm interested in his opinion with that issue we both have. Thanks.

now what

you are in Plan B. I did not at the time think that my three or four "talks" with my wife during Plan B, was necessarily a bad thing. Sure, I had broken NC.
If it was 3 or 4 "talks", I would not (necessarily) see a problem.

But from what I have read, Mimi is in almost daily contact in some way.
Yes, the house is a big deal and there probably needs to be some communicaton to deal with it.

Remember, Plan B is to ALSO to help you "just get over it." Continued contact will not help you to detach and pull the emotions out of it.

Mimi

I think Chris has made a very important point.

Continued contact will not help you to detach and pull the emotions out of it.

Unless your communication is about something that directly enables your plan B or reconciliation, or of course something that is an emergency or v.important regarding the kids, then it is probably counter-productive and should be avoided. I think MM's approach is the right one when there are kids involved. Some contact is inevitable, so it is how YOU manage and control that contact that is important.

S.

Chris and Salerio,

I think we are closer than we think. In my last post, I was focusing on the effects of Plan B on the WS. Of course, Plan B is also for the BS.

While the affair is in full swing, Plan B is meant to pull back, to remove all ENs being met by the BS. it is also meant to protect the BS, and whatever remaining love they have for the WS. Now we all know this.

It is true that Mimi, while doing a good Plan B, fascilates when confronted by her husband. And we all agree that this is the wrong approach in Plan B. But there comes a time when Plan B will end.

The first way will be if the BS has run out of love. Then it is off to Plan D, and a new life. Plan B prepared them for that. For the WS that just will not come back, then this is the way out.

The other way out of Plan B is reconciliation. But the question is, how do you proceed to Plan R? Of course, there must be a meeting of the terms of surrender (PBL). But during that process, there are moments of tension. Moments where the WS tries to negotiate these terms. Moments where the BS doesnt quite believe this is all true. Both parties are taking huge risks at this point.

Up until now, Plan B had been protecting the BS. But in order to move to Plan R, there is a period of time where transition happens. It is here where we take the chance on getting burned. It is here where we take the chance, just like the Marines in Iraq, when the enemy is giving up, and then fakes it and shoots back.

There is going to come a time that Mimi will have to take a chance. Not yet, but shortly. It will be dangerous, and she will be opening herself to being destroyed again. This is why I believe, even without kids, that there must be diplomatic channels. Where info FROM the WS can move to the BS. And where the PBL, terms of surrender if you will, can be transmitted back continually.

Both of you...I believe that Mimi hasnt doen such a great job in this period. That is why she has gotten burned before. You are right. She must shut down and completely pull back until the terms are met.

But she also must allow that info to flow from him. It is the only way he will work through this final period. If she can stay seperated fro mthe issue, just keep braodcasting the terms of surrender, then she will be protecting herself as much as she can during this transition period. Sure there are some risks. But at the point that the relationship appears to be over with the OW, and appears that the WH is trying to make his way back, communication must open again, but only within the limited extent of repeating the conditions of reconciliation.

Can Mimi do this? I dont know. You are right that she has fallen down several times. But if Mimi wants this all to end, it will happen now. It appears that she has everything right where she wants it. If she does this right, I believe we are talking days, even a few weeks, before her husband surrenders.

But Mimi, if you continue to break your own NC, and talk to him about non-PBL issues...if you continue to engage him in possibilities outside of what you have laid out in the PBL, then you will extend this pain further for BOTH of you. And you may miss your opportunity completely.

Stay in NC. Stay in Plan B until the conditions are met. But, when it appears he wants to talk surrender, then listen to him. It may be the time that he is actually ready to give up. If it isnt, do as I did...reiterate the surrender terms, and then hang up the phone or walk out.

Sure, this will hurt. This transition period will hurt because it causes you to come out of your comfort zone. But you will have to do so.

So, stay dark. No contact until he is ready to meet your terms. If he approaches you on those terms, listen to him. And if he isnt ready to meet them, then respectfully point him towards the PBL. And then wait until his next breakthrough.

With my wife, this process of her negotiating, and then me sending her on her way, only for her to come back with another proposal, was over about 4 weeks. She would ask for such things as if I could just be her friend while she worked thru ending things. You see, she was trying to find the easy way out. Of course, I just told her that I couldnt do that. That there was only one way back. She cussed at me, said I would never accept her back, that I could never be her true friend, that I was blowing the chance for us to get back together. But I stayed on message and walked out.

Now, did that hurt? Sure. Did I have doubts about my plan? Sure. There were times that I wanted to just accept her terms, to be her friend while she worked thru it. I didnt want to lose her.

But some wise sages on this site kept me straight and let me understand that if I accepted anything less than PBL, then I could lose her forever. This is what Chris and Salerio are trying to say to you. Do this right, and it appears that you will have your marriage back shortly. Mess this up, and you could be in for a lot more pain.

Alway keep in your mind that you are in Plan B. When you hear from him, or about him, the only thing you are looking for is him agreeing to the terms of surrender. if it doesnt sound or look like that, then immediately reject it and pull back.

I thin kyou are in the transition period. I think he has made up his mind about the OW. And even about you. But he doesnt know how to do this. You will have to lead him the rest of the way home. You know how that is done. Do not waver. Everyone wants to think that their case is the special one, the one where the plan wont work. Mimi...your husband will react to this the same way my wife did, and many others did. Trust that.

In His arms.

What do I do now? Mortarman's analysis of this situation is right on target.

I am at a point of WS' trying to surrender. I want to make the right strategic moves. He is negotiating with me. I have followed the MM rules-not strict MB rules. I have maintained NC to the extent that he has not seen me. We have had phone conversations. He has been BEGGING for RECONCILIATION . He wants to demonstrate his seriousness by COMMITTING to buying a house with me. He has arranged a deal with the people from whom he bought the condo whereby they will buy the condo back and WE will buy a house that the builder has had on the market for a long time. It's a huge, beautiful house, really a dream home! My son and I went to see it. It would be hard for anybody to pass up. I have to be honest. I might be selling my soul, though. He says, PLEASE JUST LISTEN and consider it overnight. I reassert the conditions of the PBL. NC letter with other woman, counseling,etc. WS states that he knows that this will not be an overnight process, he could understand me saying no, he loves me and does not want to lose me, he knows what big a mistake he has made, he has had a midlife crisis, "can't stand" the OW, does not want to be around her, the lengthy contact with her showed him how she really is, etc. etc. This is all spilled out by him in a speech.

BTW, my realtor confessed to me today that she has been showing him big, expensive houses.

I just listen and verbally ask for the NC letter before I will commit to anything.

The house issue is a big one for him. Remember how he came home and touched everything in the house. Note how he left his stuff here to keep a part of himself in the house. Losing the house, me selling it , was synonymous to him of losing me. He stated a realization of how much he was losing. To be with me, is for me to be living in a house that he is a part of.

You see, one of my major gifts is making a house into a home. I can see how that has been a major loss for him. OW is probably failing on those aspects. He calls the condo "an albatross around my neck", just "empty walls". The weekends with her have been "like hell".

I do ask about withdrawal which he had difficulty getting through the last time. He has been reading SAA. WS said that then he had not definitely decided that he needed to give her up. Also, he had not had the lengthy contact with her that he has had now. He basically has missed the MIMI that was in PLAN A. What if I don't fulfill the fantasy he has created of me? OK, it really was not a fantasy. I really have changed. I ask him what if this does not work, this is a huge commitment for us to make. He says he will make a major commitment to make it work. He feels desperate to be with me again, live a normal life again, to have his family back, to be away from the bad life in which he is living. He puts a major emphasis on OW's "immorality and lack of values", the main thing he has learned new about her. What else could he have thought about a person like her?

Today I hear nothing about being scared of her. I guess he gave up that tactic because I did not buy it.

I probably have left some parts out. This is the gist of it.

YIKES!!!!!

<small>[ July 23, 2003, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

When did he end contact with her? When will he produce the NC letter and send it? [with a CC: to you]

No other negotiations until/unless PBL conditions are met. No house. Nothing. NOTHING!!!

(jumping up and down, screaming): NOTHING!!!!!!

Yeah, things are different this time, but he has destroyed your trust in him. He needs to
EARN it back - and that will take months, if not years. He needs to earn that trust back as much for him as for you.

Do not trust the grand gesture. It is the little things that count. You are right to worry about whether you will live up to his fantasy of you, because recovery will be HARDER than Plan A or Plan B, and you WILL stumble. Everyone does. Grand gestures will not get you through those times. It is committing to and disciplining yourself(ves) to do the little things, even through the failures.

<small>[ July 23, 2003, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

I am sorry. I would be a fool to not live in that house whether we reconcile or not. My WS has always done grand gestures along with the small. That has been his way with me for 30 years. That's him being himself again. That's what's so alluring.

I won't live in it with him right now.

That's the way I'm feeling.

I would not consider it without the NC letter, though.

<small>[ July 23, 2003, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

question= Do you want a strong solid improved marriage or an expensive house? From your latest postings I really can't tell. Your priorities sound as distorted as your WS. That is what I am getting from your posts. Your grasping at straws with your WS. Talk is cheap, and he hasn't done a thing to start the healing of your marriage. Buying an expensive house is just a BAND-AID to cover up a huge sore. When he sends NC letter, goes to counseling and truly shows that he wants a recovery of your marriage that is when you should buy a house together. Not a minute before! JMO

<small>[ July 23, 2003, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: trying2_4give ]</small>

Trying-to:

I was insulted by your post. I didn't need that. You haven't been reading my posts if you are not aware that I know I have a huge sore in my marriage and do not see the need to work on it. I have an appt. with Steve Harley tomorrow and have spent lots of money in counseling with him.

Maybe you are being judgmental. This has been my lifestyle. This is who I am and it has been a part of our life together. I think folks here are having a hard time with that so maybe I can't be understood by some of you. I really needed help in dealing with my life.

I just don't like how you posted. I am "grasping at straws". I haven't made any decisions. I was asking for your help not your wrath. I don't need that.

<small>[ July 23, 2003, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

If that is who you are then ok. People have different dreams and priorities and I do understand that. I gave you MY OPINION and I won't apologize for me being ME. But I do apologize if my comment caused you pain. I have read your posts from the beginning including replies that you give to others. You tell others to cont. Plan B, stay the course but you don't consider the same brand of honesty for yourself. I worded the grasping at straws incorrectly. What I meant to say is that your husband is throwing you crumbs right now, because he knows what would get you back into his web. As I said before, my opinions are made from what I am interpreting from your latest posts.

<small>[ July 23, 2003, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: trying2_4give ]</small>

Trying To:

I don't understand why you say my WS is throwing me crumbs. Investing in a house is not crumbs. What about the stuff I know he is just saying about what he has learned about his A?

To be honest, I don't think I'm strong enough to withstand this. I want to give him a try. I think he really wants to try. Plans to deliver the NC letter tomorrow.

I told you that I have not given in to him yet. I just don't need to be made to feel bad here when I'm really trying to figure things out and to get help. I don't think we will proceed though if I don't consider the importance of the home to him at all. He can conceivably buy this house with me and not live in it yet until....