You know what. Maybe you are right. I hated the independent life of PLAN B, buying a house by myself, etc. WS knows how I want him to take care of me. That's what he stopped doing when he started his A.

To be honest, I know this sounds crazy but, this feels better than all of those weeks of PLAN B. What feels better is his: begging me to take him back, the sense that he really wants to be with me. If he really wants to be with me, he would be with me anywhere you would say. It's never been that way in our relationship. I have been trying to explain that we are not like that. We are neatniks. The particular comforts of home have always been important to us. We designed and custom-built the house that is being sold. When my WS started his A, he stopped attending to our house and it became rundown. This is a real bonding, connecting point with us. That's why I am paying attention to this.

Mimi ....

"Real" bonding is when you both become vulnerable to each other on an intimate basis once more .... and you let down your guard.

"Real" bonding is not found in a lovely house with fine furnishings .... that is a diversion both of you may be used to taking together, and perhaps that's where the real intimacy got lost in the first place????

Did you spend too much time fixing up the house and losing your intimacy along the way???

Sounds like "backing up" to me. Read my sig line....

Mimi,

You know you're in good hands with Steve Harley - his advice is what you're paying the big bucks for!

Don't take posters comments too seriously. Our views come from our perspectives and are a reflection of us not you!

Counseling with SH was the best money I ever spent! SH will counsel your husband on what he needs to do to earn you back. The recovery plan he coaches WSs on is invaluable.

You'll make the right decision when the time is right. No one else can possibly tell you what is best for YOU!

Blessings to you! CSue

I agree with CSue

We're all just a bunch of Muggles here anyway! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Mimi I understand the feeling of victory when the WS is begging, pleading, saying all the right things. I did the same thing. Got married because of it (after finding out about OW). But the marriage was like I stated before, a BAND-AID to cover up an infected sore. We didn't do anything to heal it, make it better, we covered it up with a marriage. And after the marriage ceremony, the band-aid was off and we still had a BIG SORE that had never healed! We didn't have the proper tools. I was like PsychoB, angry, bitter and LB whenever I felt like it. I didn't have MB to guide me. I fought tooth and nail and stood my ground. But then I FINALLY DID SOMETHING DIFFERENT. Took down my walls (I'm sure that suprises some since I am known here as the MEAN B&TCH) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> But I did something different and it worked. I liked myself again, I become fun again.
Back to you, I didn't mean to put you down, but you know you have been here long enough to know that when PLAN B is implemented the WS promises the world at first. Tries to negotiate time, space everything in the beginning and when we say OK too fast, then you are just getting right back on that ROLLER COASTER that you were on before Plan B. Stay focused.

I'm not going to do anything tomorrow or the next day. I'll stay in an apartment if I have to. I really believe him though. He will have to back up his words with actions.

Trying to:

You're right about a lot of things that you are saying. I will keep your thoughts in mind.

I may have to go with my gut. I didn't ever feel good when I was enabling him before. This seems real. However, as you say, actions speak louder than words.

Mimi,

I have a different take on things than other posters. I think the house issue is important because it is one of the EN's you have met for your H. It is not a superficial focus on lavish trappings IMHO.

All these years, you have created a comfy nest for your H. It is obviously one of his EN's. I can relate to this because my H is the same way. His surroundings are very important to him. If he was forced to live in an ugly place, it would make him sick. One of the things that probably held him back from leaving was not wanting to leave our house, which we had just renovated to our precise taste, to live in a less than ideal rental property. Yes, it may seem superficial. And it was not the only reason he didn't leave- our kids were a factor too.

All these years you met your H's need of creating a home for him. When he left, to pursue his A, he lost that, but he figured it was there waiting for him- the moment he decided to return. When you sold your house you shook your H's world. Suddenly his home is gone. The nice, comfy, cozy place that is his center is gone. For your H, moving to a not so nice house that you have bought on your own (not with him) is not the same.

There is a joy when two lovers create a home together. My H and I have it. When we are in our kitchen we really enjoy it together. We designed it and it is a total reflection of OUR tastes. I can tell you how my H picked the floor tiles, but I designed the backsplash. He chose the cabinetry but I thought of the little cubbies on either side of the stove. All these little details are part of "US" our story. And it matters.

I think your WH is panicked over losing his home,
but the question is, has he given up OW? It is true that he shouldn't be looking for houses or even discussing this with you until that relationship is over.

Is OW living at the condo?
Is OW spending weekends with him?

I think you have to tell him you can't discuss buying a house together until the relationship with OW is over. But I do think you can listen to him strategize as to how he is going to do it. ANd I think MM is right about staying on message.

"The idea of this big, beautiful house is wonderful, honey, but we can't really discuss it while you are living with another woman. Let's talk about it after you've broken it off with her".

I am so glad you'll be talking to Steve tomorrow.

<small>[ July 23, 2003, 09:45 PM: Message edited by: espoir ]</small>

Mimi,

Espoir has it exactly right. It isnt wrong to want these things. They are ENs that you and your WH fill for each other.

But you are in Plan B! The only reason he is even talking to you about this is that you have been in Plan B! In Plan B, NO EMOTIONAL NEEDS should be met by the BS for the WS. NONE. ZIP. ZILCH.

Espoir said it well...tell him you would love to talk to him about the new house, right after the NC letter has left and he has committed to reconciliation (and whatever other things you put in the PBL, like counseling). This bonding is all well and good, except he is still with OW, still in the condo, still eating his big fat piece of cake.

He tells you the truth about his relationship with her, the fact that it isnt what he wants. Great! But all that is is the WH looking out of the fog and seeing reality for the first time. Still doesnt mean a darn thing, if he wont get up and walk out of the fog.

Now, how did he get the ability to see out of the fog? PLAN B! He is almost ready to walk out of it, and now you want to surrender to him. To meet some of his needs. Why? I know why. I have been in your shoes. I tried on several occasions last fall, durinf false reconciliations, to do the go slow approach and be the friend and meet needs. Guess what that got me. NOTHING! She still stayed with him.

Okay, this house situation is a big issue. And you know you want it. But you do not want that bog house, without fixing the occupants first. What's the rush? As soon as the NC letter is sent, then the two of you can start planning the future and getting the house situation settled. It will go a long ways in the recovery effort to have something like that that you both can build together.

BUT THAT IS ONLY IN THE RECOVERY PERIOD...WE ARE STILL IN THE ADULTERY PERIOD! His adultery has not ended. His betrayal has not ended. He has not met ONE of your conditions, and you are ready to give into him.

Mimi, I have been where you are at. It is scary. you want to believe him. He sounds so sincere. And he is. But understand, that sincerity will not keep him from backsliding. Walls must be erected to keep him moving in the right direction. That first wall is NC with the OW.

Please Mimi, do not meet another need of his, even on the phone (conversation) until he has sent the NC and conceded that he will do what you have asked in the PBL. The temptation now is to shortcut this, to get to the end fast. But your husband isnt there yet. He is close...very close. Days, maybe weeks away. He will get there. But only if you do what got you here.

YOU ARE NOT IN RECONCILIATION, YOU ARE NOT IN RECOVERY! That door must be opened by him. But the only way he should get a key to that door is when he sends the NC letter and meets your conditions.

Please, please Mimi. You will be banging yourself in the head when this falls apart and you wish you hadnt of given in.

I am sincerely interested in what Steve tells you tomorrow. Since I was in the same boat as you, I have given you the advice he gave me.

Come back on tomorrow and let us know. But I'll bet that short of NC with OW, Steve is going to tell you that you are jumping the gun.

Your husband does not deserve to have his ENs met. Get that in your head. Not until he is committed to you. And until OW is gone, he cant commit to you. So, you cant meet his ENs. Commitment = ENs met. Learn it, love it, live it.

In His arms.

Thank you, MM. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Espoir and Mortarman REALLY UNDERSTAND ME better than anyone here.

Espoir has exactly captured the way it is and has been for me and my WS.

I think Espoir really is me.

Espoir, I'm going to use your quote exactly.

That's what I needed. Someone who really understood. I know everyone else was trying. Stick with me. This is so hard for me.

BTW, she doesn't live there. She has her own house with her own child who he has not wanted to contend with- which has been a LBing issue for them. I'm pretty sure she has spent most of the weekends there but not last weekend for some reason.

Thanks.

<small>[ July 24, 2003, 07:46 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Dear Mimi,

I was glad my post was something you could relate to. My situation was a little different than what you are going through now- because I never had to go through Plan B. I almost did- I discovered continued contact in the form of phone calls- and I told my H, pack your bags and stay in a motel- or commit to NC. He grudgingly committed to NC at that moment- but I think that recovery may have gone faster if he had ever suffered through the shock of losing me.

However, in reality, I got off pretty lightly compared to many on this board- I discovered the affair 3.5 months into it- H continued it via long distance (as he flirted with the concept of moving out) for another 6 weeks before he flew out to see her and break it off. Then there were a few dribs and drabs of continued contact for another six weeks. To tell the truth, it was before I had learned about MB and I let lose with some major anger attacks during that time which probably fed his urge to call her. In retrospect, part of me wishes I had let loose with a Plan B, since I had to suffer through months of half hearted recovery efforts on his part. On the other hand, I am glad my children never had to suffer through us getting separated- and also separation can be dangerous. I should add that I believe we are now firmly in recovery- NC now for 2 years, and my WH will say the A was the stupidest, more selfish and immature thing he ever did...

The thing is, you've already been through a false recovery. Your WS has to be for real this time, or he could irrevocably damage your M.

I found that during the affair period, I did end up having alot of discussion with my H that were helpful in the long run. Firstly, I did "educate" him. I would read books and share information with him- how affairs develop, the affair "bubble", statistics on affairs, and the effects of divorce on children. I just did this calmly in an informative manner. I also did discuss some stuff about the OP with him, always being careful not to insult her. But stuff would come out during these discussions that was food for thought and that would pierce that bubble. Often I would just raise issues of practicality or logistics- which was often stuff we needed to figure out anyway.

One thing I told my WH was that he had become a liar and a cheater and I knew that was not "him"- I couldn't let him be that kind of person. You can use this technique on your WS too. For example, if he wants to discuss houses with you, you say, "I can't let you go behind OW's back with me, it isn't fair to her to let her believe she has a future with you when you are planning otherwise. I can't be party to you being dishonest. Because I respect you and I know that is not the kind of man you want to be" You take it away from you being the injured party. NOT "you hurt me so much, I have to be away from you" RATHER "I have to protect you and your dignity by distancing myself from this lying behavior". I don't know if this makes sense.

However, I think that in terms of your WH contacting you, it may be OK as long as you are confining the discussion to affair recovery. Don't chat about his work, your children, anything social. Your main question should be what is your strategy for ending the affair? And you can give him information, or let him discuss his concerns with you.

It sounds like you have already done this in giving him SAA. I think you can also educate him about withdrawal. About how the affair creates a high, like a drug, and withdrawal can feel like a letdown. That there are ways to cope with it, and how antidepressants can be helpful. You can say recovery is hard and will require alot of commitment on his part- is he ready for that? You don't want everyone to be more hurt, you, him and OW by fooling around with a half hearted effort.

You have to absolutely act like you are prepared to move on with your life- and you are prepared to be happy without him. That if OW is who he wants, he should move on and enjoy his life with her. Don't let him see any chinks in your armor. That is where Plan B helps.

I hope you have a good conversation with Steve today- and that his advice is helpful.

Good luck!

I would also be non committal about house plans when chatting with him. Continue to look for houses on your own. When is your closing on your current house? Are you committed to sell? Obviously you will need a place to live shortly.

In terms for his desire for a nice house- what is good- WS and you buy a comfortable house in which to recover in together- one that you have POJA'd on.

What is bad- WS buys you a nice house that he figures he would like to live in, then continues to fence sit, figuring he has bought you off. But this can only happen if the house is in both your names (so you can strategize to prevent this).

However, frankly, Mimi- I agree with your pragmatism in not wanting to turn down a nice house. After all, if WS never comes back, you'll feel better in a nice house than the rundown house with the broken shower door. Perhaps the solution is that the house is in your name. It's tricky- this involves negotiation. But remember, part of POJA involves brainstorming and problem solving.

Just some thoughts.

PS. I think Mortarman is right on the money with his thoughts. And he is a Plan B veteran- which I am not. Absolutely, any house discussions always come with the proviso that the affair must end, and actions speak louder than words.

<small>[ July 24, 2003, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: espoir ]</small>

WOW WOW WOW WOW !!!
ESPOIR!!

One thing I told my WH was that he had become a liar and a cheater and I knew that was not "him"- I couldn't let him be that kind of person. You can use this technique on your WS too. For example, if he wants to discuss houses with you, you say, "I can't let you go behind OW's back with me, it isn't fair to her to let her believe she has a future with you when you are planning otherwise. I can't be party to you being dishonest. Because I respect you and I know that is not the kind of man you want to be" You take it away from you being the injured party. NOT "you hurt me so much, I have to be away from you" RATHER "I have to protect you and your dignity by distancing myself from this lying behavior". I don't know if this makes sense.

that is an amazing approach..it emcompasses the whole package on such different level..

the debunking of the WS's pull to wallow in overwhelming guilt and shame...to the point of sabotaging recovery...

the abilility to show forgiveness and moving aways from what was....

the ability to put in to actions not just the words the meaning of honesty etc...

the ability to show support and hope that people can change....

It's like a huge piece of the puzzle right there in your own words...!!!!

very cool...very very very good advice...

I've been thinking about mimi's position...and whole route of plan B and how and when you do offer the olive branch..that there does have to be that route...mortarmans post was really good in addressing that...(the one on page 33 I believe...really should this post be layed to rest...)
in how to open the channels while protecting..
and now Espoirs advice on concrete ways to do it...

mimi don't think people don't understand you...they just don't want to see you hurt...
I think "we" distrust your husband more than you...cause he is sooo one sided based on the limitations of the "forum"....

We need to have faith that you do know him best...and can take of your self....

just no one wants you hurt...
but you know that....

ARK

Sorry. This is just a tease for things to come. I will be posting later on this evening when I have lots more time.

I just want to let you know that I love all of you guys. Thanks for being there for me.

You keep me from blowing it. You keep me on course.

I swear, I am gonna smack her! Get back here and fill us in on the session, Mimi!

I'm on tenterhooks Mimi! I hope the session was helpful to you!

Let's all line up and take turns at her! It's four hours! Where is she?

This is worse than finding out at the end of your TV movie...

"To Be Continued Next Week"

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

SHE'S STILL NOT HERE??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I have no more nail to bite <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> , professional lurker <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> -rh-

Ok,whats up? Were are you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />