New Branch:

You are right about the stalling.

I probably won't do the 48 hr. ultimatum but will probably go dark.

What's your bad gut feeling?

~Miss Mimi~

My gut feeling is this ....

Mimi is leaving out some significant elements of the "visiting the condo" story.

What was the text and the tone of the "invitation"?

What part of you said "OK, I'll go see your condo."?

How did you arrive at the location?

How did you depart?

Did viewing their sexual meeting bed provide you with anything valuable?

Mimi ..... here's one of my suspicions about this event ..... and I am probably wrong .... but here goes....

You are unconsciously shopping for sufficient discusting "love nest" details which will enable you to dislike your WH enough to not care so much. This was like rubbing lemon juice onto your cuts ..... trying to convince yourself that the person who cut you needs to be avoided.

Whatever his motivations are for doing this .... quien sabe? He's in a fog.

YOUR motivations are MUCH more interesting.

I imagine that many OW often have real curiosity and interest in visiting the MM's bedroom that he shares with his wife. I've read those types of desires expressed by OWs on OW message boards. They are curious about MM's life with his W. They look at her bathroom and kitchen, to scope out the competition.

You viewed their sexual bed Mimi ..... now ask yourself what purpose did doing this serve? It did serve some need of yours.... what was it?

Do you feel healed by this in some way?
Vindicated?
Motivated?
What were you going in .... and what are you going out?

I wonder about the message you gave your H doing this..... not the spoken message, but the subtle non-verbal message. How does he see your boundaries now Mimi? You viewed their sexual bed, and now you are in a somewhat voyueristic (sp?) position of THEIR relationship.

Hope you are OK. Whatever you do .... think about your subliminal message ..... and what that message says about you and your integrity.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I think I've gotten caught in his confusion/craziness. This is all very weird. I'm pulling myself out it back into the world of sanity. Thank God for this forum.

One thought. I feel more pity for him like he must have really lost it or is losing it. I feel like the more stable person, knowing that he must not have deliberately, in his right mind, chosen this life. A part of me thinks that he wants my help out of it, to let me see how low he really sank. That has been my role in his life as a rescuer, caretaker. I had stopped playing that role. He thought OW could do it. She failed. I have to ask myself do I want to do that again. The answer is probably yes because that was what I knew coming into the marriage 27 years ago. In turn, he takes care of me in a way nobody else can.

Second thought. I no longer feel competitive with her. I did not feel it when I was there and no longer feel it now. She is not on my level. It's so clear that we are like apples vs. oranges. Pep, I wanted validation of this. I'm not having any strong feelings about the whole situation for some reason. My thought is: "Is that all it was to this condo?" I had built it up in my mind like it was utopia when really he was almost "homeless".

My guess is that he is moving everything out of the condo, prior to his vacating it and they are shacking up at her place --which is really shabby. I'm living in a mansion, really, in comparison to that dump. She probably told him that she was not coming back over there anymore without the furniture from me or some commitment. Who knows, like you said, in that fog mind of his?? He claims to have A PLAN.

Boundaries? We have a codependent relationship. Isn't he attempting to reestablish the status quo?? I am him, he is me. I know, YUK!!!

Actually I'm feeling fine. WHAT'S GOING ON????

<small>[ August 17, 2003, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

By the Way,

You are right, Pep. There are parts of the story that I left out. I'm too embarassed to tell, you guys.

However, nothing happened on the bed.

Also, I did not sneak in or sneak out.

Mimi, you ask what my gut feelings were. Please understand I don't say them to hurt you, in fact, this guy makes me angry as hell with the games he's playing. And he is still playing games with your life and emotions. And I hate seeing good people hurt!
That said, here it is!
My gut says he's no closer to ending it now than he was when he came home and you two took your trip together. He played you then and he's playing you now!
Sorry, but it doesn't take a nuclear explosion to get rid of someone if you want to!
Her feelings shouldn't matter a tinkers damn to him if he wants his marriage to you and his family.
Quite simple really. If you had an intruder in your home, would you fiddle around taking time to not hurt their feelings before shoving a gun in their face and ordering them out! Not me!
She's an intruder and there by his permission!
Your feelings obviously don't mean two cents in the way he's handling this.
I don't buy the scare tactics and being afraid of what she might do. He's trying to build a blackmail type of scene here, and pretend he's protecting you and family.
The only people he's protecting is her and his own A-- so they can continue in a different way to throw you off the trail.
I'll say one thing for you. You are to be commended for your love and patience in all this because I could never be that good a person.
What I expect from my H and marriage is to see him chop his OW out of life in a nano second. And he did.
He had only two choices, her or me. And he wasn't going to get an unlimited time to make up his mind either.
Your H still Has full control! I'd not only go dark, I'd tell him sorry, you had every chance and months of playing this game, now stick with your condo and OW because I've decided to move on with my life where I won't bear hurt anymore.
If her feelings matter most, then that is where he should stay for good!
He has convinced you it's over with her, that he is going to rebuild with you, but he hasn't done a damn thing about it, has he? Furniture, clothes don't mean a thing.
Her A-- out of his life for good is what counts!
He can pick up the phone, call her, and let you hear him tell her she's history, he doesn't love her, love you and is not going to have her in his life ever again!
Then tell her don't call, don't write and don't stalk me or I'll put the authorities on you for harrassment!
End of story. LouLou

Lou,

Try to be understanding of who I am. I am not like you. I'm not at a place where I want to go on with my life without him. I need to get there maybe and- might even be moving in that direction- but I'm certainly not there today.

I've been with him since I was 18 and I am now almost 50 years old. He's been the primary focus in my life all this time other than my work and my children. It makes a difference, I have to admit, in who I am.

I've realized in all this that I have never really established a sense of independence and don't get much good feelings from it. I know it's what I'm supposed to value and want. Other women, like you, tell me about it. I've tried it out these few months and I have not liked it at all, dealing with the world on my own. Sometimes, I think, I would even look for another man to take care of me if my WH doesn't. It has to do with unresolved childhood issues with my father, who is now deceased. That's a LONG STORY!!!

<small>[ August 17, 2003, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Mimi, I apologize for being so blunt in earlier post. That was not right.
I guess I just admire how hard you've tried and your tenacity in holding in there through some very rough times.
Truthfully, a divorce would be horrible for me. I have been with my H for 31 yrs and I'd feel lost.
He has been the true happiness in my lifetime, considering the past before I knew him. I, too, came from a very dysfunctional family with divorce, and many other hurts from childhood on.
I think realizing what he could do knowing how much he meant to me is why I have developed a new attitude so I never have to say I can't live without him!
The fact is, though I may not have realized at the time, that I down deep knew he loved me enough to give him ultimatums. Because I really felt he would choose me.
But if he hadn't, I'd survive. And no, I wouldn't stay single at all. I do need someone in my life to love, protect and fill my EN's.
I just know I couldn't ever hang in like some of you have because it would degrade me beyond feeling special ever again to him.
We all have different needs and yes, childhood experiences really do effect us throughout life.
Again, I apologize, but I think I went off because I really do care about you and your feelings. I might say I'm almost as frustrated as you, but that wouldn't be possible at all as you're in the situation.
Forgive me for saying I'd just like to punch his lights out! LOL
He better not let you down this time or a whole lot of strangers are not going to like him at all!
The fact that he is so important to you, you need him to feel whole is even worse for you, I know.
WE do start to feel a kindred spirit with others here.
We're all waiting with hope for a grand announcement from you that it's finally over and your future is looking wonderful together.
Blessings and please forgive me. LouLou

Mimi, the suspense of all this is killing me, I can't imagine what it is doing to you!!
I too can't imagine going forward with my life without WH. I try, and when people say, you don't need him, I say, I know, but I want him.
But really it's both, I need and want him. I've been the caretaker pretty much myself also, I'm having a hard time imagining WH "taking care" of OW. He can't even organize the bills to pay, I think he's still working out of a paper bag! for God's sake.
His complaint has been that I didn't bring in enough income, well the way I look at it, that's all he had to do, I pretty much took care of everything else and I mean everything.
Sometimes I think that everyone's picture of WH as such a wonderful father (pre-A) was mostly due in part from my making it easy for him. Now that he's on his own, he doesn't seem to have a clue and I'm able to look back with more clarity.
Anyways, hang in there, I know the intimacy probably felt great after all this time, man, what I wouldn't give for that opportunity, but you're just so close, I'd hate to see your WH cake eat much longer.
Patience, definately not my strong suit, but you gotta do it!

A couple of good things:

When WS went to visit my grandparents, their caretaker confronted him: "Are you home yet?; this time are going to stay?" This is a woman who told me to leave him and don't look back. She said she felt my WS was sincere about returning home, that something "scared" him "out there" and I will have a hard time getting him to leave even if I wanted him to leave when he comes back this time. This was her opinion after talking to him.

WS came to the football game Friday night and stayed for the whole game, not having to rush back to OW. Last year he only came to a couple of games, made an excuse and left at half-time. Would come home late. Now I know why.

He definitely has the hots for me. There was electricity at the game, giving me that look, resulting in the condo yesterday. He had tried every idea he could think of to get with me on Saturday. Asking me to the condo worked.

After Lou's post, I broke down and called him today. I just had to get a sense of whether he is "playing games" with me. He called me back right away after being able to leave a messsage on his NEW VOICE MAIL. I registered that he sounded like his old self, not foggy. He was concerned about my emotionality. I must have sounded like giving up which is how I was feeling really. I thought I had been fooled again and maybe I have. He says, "Are you sure you are all right? I'm so sorry about all of this." I did not LB but I was firm about NO GAMES, GET RID OF HER QUICK OR NO MIMI, etc. He seemed desperate to let me know that we're talking a week to two weeks. He said that he wanted to let me see, among other things <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , that he had cleared out the condo, that it was no longer their love nest, that there are no traces of her there, that he is comfortable about sharing all aspects of his life with me. He did leave me free to roam the place. He says that there is more STUFF that he has to finish, more stuff that he has to get from her. Their relationship has been long-term, about two years. I just have to go with my gut. I think it's imminent. We'll just have to see...

"More stuff he has to get from her"

This is a stupid remark he made. I don't believe him.

What "stuff' could possibly be more important than you and your feelings and your marriage?

Fogese is so damn stupid, it's really hard to hear it without feeling nauseous.

Remember Mimi .... this is not not just about him ending the A .... it's about him becoming a better husband .... even if he came home today .... he's still acting stupid.

"As is".... he'd make you unhappy. He needs to do better than this.

Hold the line Mimi. YOUR integrity depends on your loving boundaries.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Pep

<small>[ August 17, 2003, 10:33 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Mimi, couple more weeks. Just pay attention and see if he's going to actually go through with it this time. Or how many more couple more weeks will he need?
That's exactly what I meant by the game playing.
Not to hurt you, but enough is enough out of him.
What could he possibly have left with her that is so important?
What could possibly be holding up the NC letter he was going to write and I believe you should help and see it sent to her.
Anyhow, well, you have a couple more weeks which puts it into Sept. So that's not so far off.
Hang in. LEN

Actually, Pep, he might not fit your textbook definition of the perfect person or husband but the statements about the "stuff" is typical him before the A. Hard to explain if you don't really know a person. It's hard to communicate everything in these square boxes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I might get too discouraged and depressed if I stay on here. That's what happened to me yesterday. I have to keep going and be somewhat optimistic.

Oh Mimi,
please don't get discouraged, not now! You know how it is here, everyone is just looking out for your best interest and it can get frustrating for those of us who have been following for so long and have grown fond of you. NO one wants to see you hurting for one more minute than you have to.
But you are right, you know your WH better than anyone and I believe you are working him, just don't let him work you back!
Did you ever think you would be at this point? No, probably not, it seemed hopeless at times didn't it? Well now that you almost have what you have worked so hard and patiently(and I use that word loosely LOL) for, you've got to remain strong until WH is back to being H!
Thinking of You,
Shugah

Shugah,

You are right. To come this far, to where I never thought I would be, and then to find that my support group may think this is only baby steps!!

My WS has looked me straight in the face and said: "Face it, it's over!!! He wrote me a note saying, "I don't love you anymore". He acted like he almost hated me all of last year and I felt that there was nothing that I could do. For him to be acting like himself again and like he loves me again is almost a miracle.

I'd rather believe him and be fooled I think. Hopefully, you guys will be around to help pick up the pieces.

I'm just being human and honest with you. I'm trying not to run away from the forum like I did before.

Mimi

glad you posted that reply before I got ready for mine! I was about to give you a small poke with the 2x4!

People here do have your best interest at heart, but bear in mind that most of us are in, or have been in similar situations, so we may be a little blunt at times <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Also, as MM has said, you are closer to the PRIZE than probably anyone else here at the moment. We want to see you grab it, not drop it and have to go crawling round the floor to pick it up again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You want my honest opinion - based on obviously very constrained persepective we can get online without knowing your H - I think you erred by going to the condo - but guess what - its not necessarily a big deal - only becomes one if you make it.

Think of it like this - you go on a diet. All goes well, then one day you give into temptation and have an ice cream. Is all the good work gone? Nope, as long as you get back on the wagon and keep going, it is pretty insignificant. You have been and continue to make great progress that inspires those of us at an earlier stage in the game than yourself. Remember the Harley principles, keep talking to your consellor, keep talking here, and remember that irrespective of HOW something is said here, the message is still one of support and encouragement.

Keep up the good work.

S.

Mimi

No way do I come close to thinking your H needs to be "perfect person or husband" before you take him back.

But, I do know this ....

Recovery is hard Mimi. Maybe more emotionally difficult than Plan B <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

After the initial joy of having your H back in your home .... there will come a reckoning within your heart. You will come to question if he is "worth" all the hurt that you'll feel WHILE WORKING THE RECOVERY!

Recovery is at least 2 years. Perhaps longer, perhaps shorter.

The healthier your H is when he joins you in recovery, the less you'll be confused by his confusion.

To maximize recovery .... keep your Plan B boundaries healthy.

Sorry to offend you Mimi. I apologize for my insensitivity.

Pep

Pep:

You are on target! My WH has a long way to go. And so do I. Recovery will be extremely difficult for us. I guess, one step at the time. We are not even there YET.

Today, I read over my notes from my last Steve Harley session.

He said, "WS" is trying to "finagle himself out of this. He knows that it is not working for him. You will have to sit back in your holding pattern and wait him out. He's a proud man who has to do it his way".

OK, Steve. I was trying to listen to you.

I've been trying to listen to all of you.

Hang in there with me.

Howdy Mimi! Have you talked to Steve again recently?

Hi Mel:

I wondered where you have been. Probably disappointed in me.

I have to save Steve for the big stuff-quite expensive. I know what he would say about my latest ventures.

I still say I just had to see that condo. It's hard to explain how important that was to me. I'm so glad I did. Regardless of the cost it was worth it to me.