WW tells me today that she might want to talk to DS about moving into his room. WW says she thinks OM is back on drugs. She wouldn't move today while OM is at work. Wants to talk during this next week.

She does not want us to get back together. Just a place to live. I want her home bad bad bad.

I need opinions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Help WW get away from crazy OP who's using drugs? ..... Yes, you're probably gonna have to help her. It just might be dangerous where she is..... (Remember, a long time ago, I mentioned something about them drug using .... and you were thinking it was 'drugs*lite' and you weren't too worried? Well, I'd be a little more worried now if I were you.

Get more info from her. Have WW develop a PLAN to protect the entire family if she moves back in.

Use this opportunity (a Plan-A gift right into your lap! Thanks God!) to work together with your wife and mutually come up with safety precautions to avoid any retribution funny business from druggy OP.

Have you spoken to your MIL?

Pep

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

PS .... when you speak with your MIL .... ask if she'd do something for you.

Ask your MIL to ask her daughter if OP has ever threatened her, frightened her with his temper, or ever been violent with her.

I don't think your wife would tell you, even if it were true right now, but she just might tell her mother. PLUS .... A Mom is often intuitive about her daughter .... and can see through lying and covering up (years of practice! LOL)

Pep

Pepper, it's been a heck of a day. This might get a little long but here goes. Remember the IL's have totaled their car so I'm driving them anywhere they want to go.

WW was late for visitation yesterday. MIL had me call at 30 minutes late. WW was stuck in room because OM had left while she was asleep. He had taken car and left no note so she didn't know when she would be over. OM came home while they were talking and she came over here for a 1 hr visit with kids and IL's about 45 minutes later.

Just before she left she took me aside and told me OM had bailed a friend of his out of jail. That is where he had been. He had used her rent money to do it. In all fairness he planned to replace it by pawning his PS2. However the pawnshop was closed(duh it's July 4) but rent is due and she wanted me to pawn it for her. I did have the money and let the kids use it so I agreed.

Today WW was to come over by 9am to rummage sale with IL's,me and DD. We waited until 930 and called. No answer. MIL had me take everyone to hotel. WW and OM were just finished dressing and WW was to take OM to work. We came back home to wait.

WW arrives at 1015 WW arrives but has to leave at 1130 to take OM lunch. Fairly decent visit but WW seems nervous. As she is leaving she calls me to car to tell me about asking S about room as posted earlier.

WW comes back at 1230 but has to leave at 3 to pick up OM from work. WW IL's and I decide to go have a drink. WW has me ride with her and IL's drive my van. I tell her on the way that we are prepared to get her stuff now while OM is at work and she can stay at IL's as long as she wants. I will go get her and bring her home anytime she is ready. WW says no she is not moving today.

Also tells me that OM knows now that the pawn shop was closed. He wants his PS2 back and that the he said the reason she had turned off the alarm and made him late for work this morning is because she is "f***ing" me.

Bar is closed we go to bowling alley. WW and I bowl and have a great time. She really enjoyed it. She relaxed, laughed ,joked and cut up with me.

At 3 I give her the PS2 and she leaves. I ask if she is coming back and she doesn't know but agrees to call either way so we won't be sitting around waiting on her.

She never calls. At 630 IL's have me take them to bar. At 8 I decide to go have 1 with them and go back up there. MIL informs me she is pissed as WW has spent 5hr total with her in 3 days. She is also upset about OM telling WW when she can and can't come to she MIL. Wants the number to hotel to invite WW up. I give it to her.

WW agrees to come right up. She knows I'm there and I'm in pretty good mood. 1 1/2 hr later she still not there. MIL has me take her to hotel. MIL is drunk but she's going wether I take her or not so I do.

MIL goes up. FIL and I stay in van. 3 minutes later WW comes yelling that someone needs to come get MIL. FIL goes up and gets her. Lots of yelling at this point.

OM comes out of room. Has to see me but doesn't say anything to me so I don't either. when IL's in van I bring them home.

Story from MIL. When WW answered door she was crying. Said OM is kicking her out. OM then come to door, MIL wants WW to repeat it but won't. OM calls MIL manipulative for trying to get WW to come to bar with us. Tells MIL to move WW out as she just wants to come be with me and drink a lot.

MIL goes through roof. Calls him manipulative, controling, self centered, egotistical, a****le. HE threatens to call cops. MIL sits on dresser and tells him to go ahead. Thats when WW comes to get someone to come get MIL.

We get home but MIL is not done yet. She is positive he will hurt WW and is determined to get her out tonight. MIL calls room, OM answers and hangs up on her. MIL tries to call cab to take her to room and I get FIL to stop her.

Now MIL mad at both of us. Telling us it will be our fault if WW gets hurt because she could have got her to leave. Finally got her calmed down enough to get her in bed. Swears she is going over there early in the morning.

She will do it. At least she will be sober. I'm sure I'll get the blame from WW on all this. No way she will move back in now. She might even stay with this guy. She had the chance to leave. He was telling her to go and she would not.

Any idea how I can salvage any of this situation?

Sounds like its time for Plan B. If you remove yourself from the triangle, your WW will have no choice but to depend on the OM to meet ALL of her EN's, and from the looks of things, he doesn't seem to be doing such a great job at meeting the few that she's allowing him to fulfill. It wouldn't surprise me if her A disintegrated soon after you go into Plan B.

hurting, PLEASE stop giving her money to pay her rent with the OM! How will she ever be able to face the consequences of her actions if you protect her?

I agree with TMCM, I would just move to Plan B. She is just cake eating right now and contact with you only basically enables her to continue with the OM much longer. If left to her own devices, the affair will bottom out in no time. Please don't interfere with that.

Plan B will also serve to give you back some much needed respect. Right now it seems she is just viewing you as her errand boy rather than someone who thinks on their own and will protect their interests from her abuse. I think she is very destructive to your family and hope you take steps to protect you and your children from her.

If she still wants to come back, I would set firm conditions down otherwise she will just continue in this destructive behavior and possibly carry on the affair from a safe home base. You don't even need to be exposed to that nightmare. Better to have her out of the house than carrying on with OM right in front of you and the kids again. If she stays with the OM, I assure you it will burn out quickly, but if she comes home, it will be easier for her to continue it.

WTG MIL...Woo Hoooo! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I'm sorry but whether she had one tied on or not, she stood up to that SOB OM.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm sure I'll get the blame from WW on all this. No way she will move back in now. She might even stay with this guy. She had the chance to leave. He was telling her to go and she would not.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are obviously walking on so many eggshells you are afraid to do anything that might be considered an LB. Well, I think sitting on your seat cushions and doing nothing is a LB too. She knows that you will tolerate her A's both now and in the future.

Doing nothing to negotiate the end of the A is the same as enabling it. You can't plan A without her. She has to participate. What you are showing her is that you are willing to tolerate an A with any man and simply lay back in the weeds until she may or may not decide she's had enough and come home....till the next time.

You're laying the ground rules right now with regards to A's. She may just use this one as a stepping stone and experience for her next A.

You really need to start expressing that this type of behavior within your M will not be tolerated. She is walking all over you right now. Doormat you are! Sorry fella. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

I really don't think that a few well aimed LB's are damaging to the M as much as they are beneficial. There is such a thing as "tough Love". Isn't that what Plan B is? Even during a good Plan A one can demonstrate tough Love even if it results in what some might perceive to be a LB. (e.g. not giving her money) She is supposed to be giving YOU money as in CS.

Start showing some intolerance towards the A and her irresponsible lifestyle. Stop enabling it by doing nothing to negotiate it's demise.

jmho
ba109

Your WW does not appreciate you because she does not see you value yourself. Plan A's purpose is to negotiate an end to her A without resorting to love busters and agreeing to meet her EN's AFTER she ends her A, it does NOT imply that you have to be a doormat who gives her money so she can pay the OM's rent. So far, she still continues to live with the OM and has not shown you ANY interest in coming back and rebuilding the M, and because of this I say that it is time to implement Plan B's tough love. And even if she did end up breaking up with the OM and expressing a desire to work on the M, you should NOT take her back until she is serious that she is willing to commit to a marital recovery plan that includes counseling with a pro-marriage professional and following the principles embodied in The Four Rules For A Succesful Marriage. She has to prove herself worthy of returning to the home ONLY after doing these steps. Only by EARNING the privilege to come back to you can she appreciate you and the M.

You can start showing some self respect by not letting yourself become her emotional punching bag. If she starts to yell and accuse you of ruining her life, remove yourself from her immediately. Soon, she will realize that you are not going to be her whipping boy to conveniently dump on when she screws things up in her life.

I (mostly) agree with the others, she may require the experience of life with OM fully and without assistance from you ...... but, I want to give you a warning!

I've got to ask you, do you think your wife, your children's mother, might be in a dangerous place? (REAL danger, not just danger of embarrassment or not making her rent)

Right now, the most effective technique could be something along the lines of old-fashioned shunning. I wonder what would happen if your wife found out there was a family BBQ .... and all her old friends were invited, her parents, everyone from her previous happy memories ..... and she was left out.

Something to think about. The next bowling party .... everyone is invited, except her. Consequences need to be real and need to sting.

Pep

He kicked her out last night. It appears that the reason she was asking about moving into DS room is she saw it coming.

She has moved a lot of her stuff to a bisexual female friends house. She went over there last night and got drunk. Stayed up all night talking with her.

Came over to my house this morning at 9 to visit with MIL. Is still here. They are taking a walk right now. Tells me she doesn't know if she wants to live here or at frinds place. I believe she still wants it to work out with OM. She won't remove the vanity plate from her car.

Would it not be better for her to live here again? That way I have a chance to do a proper plan a again. Not around her all the time and as she is keeping the car they bought she would be able to leave anytime. Would not being here become a habit again and give her a chance to fall in love with me again?

Hurting,

IMHO, no. She needs to live wherever else will allow her as long as she has that attitude.

Think about it, who would you let treat you this way before you send them packing?

Sometimes making it easier for the Ws is worse than saying no. Yea, she may kick, scream and say you don't love her but really..... she says she doesn't know where to go because she has too many options. IMHO, I think you should remove your home as her option. Forever??? No, just until she shows she is worthy of living with you. Have some respect for yourself and your property.

Sorry for the harsh post. I just don't want to see you settle for less than what you deserve.

What does your MIL think? Maybe you and her parents can come up with a plan. Remember helping the WS may be worse than letting take herself down.

L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hurting12:
<strong> That way I have a chance to do a proper plan a again. Not around her all the time and as she is keeping the car they bought she would be able to leave anytime. Would not being here become a habit again and give her a chance to fall in love with me again?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have already showed her your best side. Doing Plan A too long is just as destructive as not doing it long enough. There is nothing more there to demonstrate, she has seen your best side. It is time to move into Plan B.

Plan B will wake her up pretty fast AND have some added benefits of restoring some respect when she sees you setting some MUCH NEEDED boundaries. It will also protect you and the children from her sordid lifestyle.

ight now, your whole life, and that of the children, revolves around her sick little escapades. That needs to change, hurting! You need to restore some sanity to your life and take charge of your life. If SHE wants to come back to the real world and is WILLING to demonstrate changes to you, she should eventually be allowed to rejoin your family. But not as she is now. Quit allowing an insane person to dictate your life!

I will also add that I find it impossible to love a man who will not stand up for himself and I think most women feel the same.

Hurting, listen to the ladies because they are right on the money. Your WW will NEVER come out of the fog until YOU let her fall flat on her face when reality pulls the rug right underneath her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong>I will also add that I find it impossible to love a man who will not stand up for himself and I think most women feel the same.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Amen! I have said this over and over again that overly passive Plan A makes for a very unattractive H. Finally a woman MBer has concurred.

Hurting, you are sitting back doing next to nothing while WW trods all over you. As Mel said, you have already shown that you can change for the better. I think that I must respectfully disagree with Mel on this point though in that I think you have yet to show your "best" side. You've shown her that you can be a loving, caring, contributing H. That's not enough however. (Going out on a limb here and speaking for women in general.) Women want their man to stand up for themselves, what they believe in and in the heart of chivalry...they want their man to fight for them or at least fight to get them back. I just don't see you doing that.

I'm not saying that you need to confront the OM but you need to start being a little tougher and demanding with your WW in your stance. If you want her back than start showing it. You are carrying this Plan A too far and it is beginning to harm her impression you and the chances of getting her back. You are playing soft and I would imagine that most women would simply not find that attractive.

jmho
ba109

<small>[ July 06, 2003, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: ba109 ]</small>

Remember that other men that were in your situation, like Mortarman and StillTryingToSaveIt, did not get their WW's to come out of the fog until AFTER they went to Plan B. Plan B introduces reality into the WS's life and reality is poison to a fantasy like an A.

Many thanks to all the responded. Between you guys and WW I now know that she can not come back into this house until she is comitted to reconciliation(sp).

WW left at 6pm to go back to friends house. Had told MIL that she had already moved most of her stuff out of room. WW was exhausted, it was obvious that she hadn't been to bed last night. Last thing she told me before she left was she was too tired to decide where to live today. Her clothes were at friends house and she has to work tomorrow so she was going there now to go to sleep.

I just drove by hotel (9pm). She is there. It's obvious that he didn't kick her out. He might be threatening it so she was feeling me out Sat but it's not over yet.

Now all those things WW said today make sense. Not being able to make up her mind, not sure if we would start doing things together with kids on weekends, all her stuff out of room then one set of keys and odds ends still there then 3 boxes still there, "I have to go"said at 6pm, not wanting to remove the vanity plate...etc..

She prob lied to keep MIL from going over there today and jumping his a** again. At least she did spend all day with us. We did have a great time, including WW. was the happiest I've seen her in a while.

However, the BS gravy train is over. WW will be informed tomorrow that there will be no money for any reason. She will not be allowed to spend even 1 night in this house until we have agreed on a recovery plan. I've talked it over with MIL and I have her full support. She will also continue to try to talk some sense into her DD's head.

I however will do my best never to bring up R talk. I will do plan A the way it is supposed to be done (with boundries) I still feel it's too early for plan B ,plus OM would love for me to NC WW. Heck most of their fights that I know about stem from her having contact with me.

I going to do IC wth SH again as soon as I can afford it. Probably a week from this coming Friday. If he says to "B" then I think I'm ready. Otherwise a better (read "no doormat") plan A.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hurting12:
<strong>I will do plan A the way it is supposed to be done (with boundries) I still feel it's too early for plan B ,plus OM would love for me to NC WW. Heck most of their fights that I know about stem from her having contact with me.

I going to do IC wth SH again as soon as I can afford it. Probably a week from this coming Friday. If he says to "B" then I think I'm ready. Otherwise a better (read "no doormat") plan A.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you. I have to say I agree with yours and ba109's reasoning on this. Maybe it is much better to show her your strong side before you go silent. Good job, hurting. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Be very careful in NOT staying too long in Plan A for it may end up costing you your love for your WW. The emotional stress can become so great that if your love for her goes in the red, you may not want to save your marriage, and while you may scoff at this idea, many that have gone before you and stayed to long in Plan A, did end up reaching the point where they just gave up and divorce their WS. If you don't beleive me that recovery is tough, just ask Mortarman, StillTryingToSaveIt and TM94, for they are still struggling with left over issues and doubts as to whether they really want to be married to their FWW's. Just like too much of everything is bad, so it is with staying in Plan A for too long.

WW showed up at noon today with this story.

When she left here to go to friends house friend was openly using drugs. OM is using again for sure. She found a crack pipe in room. Since she knew OM was out of town last night she went to the room. She didn't try to hide that she was there she voluntered the information.

OM dropped her off with clothes for work and nothing else. He left before she could ask if she could stay.

She asked if I thought my brother would let her stay in his camper. I called and he was not willing. I tried to get her to go to her moms house. She won't because both my inlaws drink constantly and thats why she can't stay with friend, if she is around that she will do it. She had an abuse problem until she got preg with first child and knows she can't be around that.

She left OM because she will not lose her kids because someone she is with is using drugs. She admits she still loves him but wants it to end.

She has no where to go. She is the mother of my kids and I can't turn her out into the street. I told her I must have and she agreed to the following.

No calls from any OM. Either from or to.

All money to be devided according to how much each made that week as both of our check go up and down. First bills paid then agreed upon purchases then a division of whats left.

She must stay for 8 months. No in and out and in.

I am ready for the flames as I did not get a recovery plan. She is not interested in that right now. She would have went to the streets first. She is not trying to hide that she still loves OM. I can't put her on the streets at this point and as long as there are no calls I can live with even the A coming back.

I told her that SAA could help her get over him faster and she did read some of it. I know because I asked her to read out loud to me and she did. She didn't get very far as she had taken a pill for migraine and was having trouble focusing. Those pills always put her out for several hours so I had expected that.

I have put her in the extra bedroom and told the kids it's only for 1 night that she is staying. I want her to agree to the terms again tomorrow with no meds in her system before I tell them that she will be staying with us for a while.

I will plan A until Feb 1st (9mos total),she moves out or, she violates the agreement, whichever comes first. Then go to a true plan B.

This A will have those boundries in place always and will not be changed. I might have let her go today and waited for rock bottom if I had not have told her Friday she could have DS room if she needed it. I just couldn't demand more than I knew she could give. To me that would have been going back on my word that she could come here if she needed a safe place to live.

I did not ignore the advise of all who responded yesterday and today. I wish I could have followed it ,but I couldn't.

I don't know if I should be happy she is back or not. I'm not happy that there is no recovery plan. Hopefully she will want one in the future. If not I know I did all I was capable of to either save M or end it as well as possible. I now have a chance to meet all her needs again if she will just let me.