Why worry about him going on vacation to some far off place? It will stall divorce proceedings if he's not around to receive papers and such.
He does not, repeat, DOES NOT have any power over you unless you let him have it. He can tell anyone he wants anything he likes, that is true. Probably, he'll just make himself like a jerk. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Consider taking the initative yourself. Once you finally decide to file, start telling people that you made a last-ditch effort to save your marriage but it didn't work. Tell them that you're trying to handle it in the best way possible, but that your husband is threatening you with financial fraud, blackmail and slander.

The point is we are both teachers in a district of over 4000 teachers. He would go and start telling his work colleagues in his school first, then our former work colleagues, and then administrators, people who have power over me and where I can work. I will look petty (and just plain old wierd) if I start contacting a bunch of people that I haven't spoken to in ages telling them things like that last sentence or two above. I still think just going on about my life is wiser than trying to say anything negative about him to anyone. He can sling mud if he likes, but I prefer to rise above that.

If he chooses to liquidate his assets, I don't expect to have any power to block him. But I will call my lawyer today and make another appointment for asap.

I remembered one other thing he said last night, that the fact that I was the one who cheated on him was worth something, as in he deserved more of the matrimonial property, like the law would actually do that. That's not the case, it's no fault law, but I didn't bother to tell him. He also threatened to sue me for emotional damages or something similar.

He also told me I'd never see my equity money until I signed the house over to him. I said of course I knew that. He thinks I am stupid. He really does. Every time he told me how smart he thought he was I fully agreed with him using Orchid's reverse babble for whatever that's worth.

I don't know how to take my call display records and keep them in any way to use them against him for harassment. Once more than 40 new callers have called, the old ones just disappear. He was very wise not to leave any messages.

Interesting, that he's content to leave his final words to me at "so have a nice f@#$ing life." He hates me, pure and simple. I'm now just a financial liability with a booty that ruined his life. But, it was his choice to isolate himself from his friends, from his coworkers, from the world.

He can't slander me if he's telling the truth. I've inquired about that. Slander is spreading lies about someone. I have no legal recourse if he tells people the truth, that I slept with his best friend and that's why we're divorcing. If I can't prove he's lying, I have no case against him.

One other interesting detail, OM's new job is in the same school and same department as H's annoying little EA girlfriend's sister "who knows everything". My H proudly told me that last night. It seems to make him feel like he has some power over OM. He's in for a potential ride from he** says my H. I honestly feel like warning OM, but I guess that's not my responsibility.

Jen

<small>[ June 03, 2003, 07:57 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Jen some major points here.

AS A RULE:

1) It takes 1 to 5 years to recover clinically with 2 years considered the norm by some and the minimum by others.

2) Its more difficult for a male to recover from a wife's affair than vice versa. Yes its not fair but part of that lies in society in which men are actually praised for sexual prowess while women are scorned. Also men are not as skilled in dealing with emotional issues as women.

AFFAIR SPECIFIC

3) Recovery is impacted by the specifics of the affair.
a) How long was it?
b) Whom was it with?
c) Level of activity.
d) Specific act physically.
e) Level of coverup.
f) Level of feelings for the OP.

INDIVIDUAL SPECIFIC

4) Was the betrayed spouse alert to the possibility of an affair? Studies show the more unsuspecting the spouse the greater the reaction or shock to discovery.

5) What is the betrayed spouses attitudes towards sex, fidelity and marriage?

6) Is the betrayed spouse an emotional healthy person affair not counting?

MARRIAGE SPECIFIC

7) Did the betrayed spouse believe the marriage was a good one?

8) If not was the betrayed spouse the unhappy party? As odd as this may sound an unhappy betrayed spouse has a harder time in the long run because they take the position I was unhappy too but I didn't cheat.

9) The level of communication between both spouses before and after an affair.

You see there are alot of dynamics in play here that make it hard to really put oneself into your betrayed spouses shoes.

That being said my marriage counselor said she has had men not even talk to their wayward spouses for a full year after discovery...yet they remained married and repaired their marriages.

stunned_dad: Are you trying to suggest that I should hold out hope for recovering my marriage? That I should not bother going ahead with a divorce?

You were not there last night, you did not see the first hand evidence that his anger and avoidance are in full swing, and show no signs of wavering. He will be a negative "oh woe is me" person for years to come. Life is short, and although many would say there are consequences to my actions, I don't think I want to be waiting around for him to snap out of it and stop treating me like a sex-toy/punching bag.

So many people lurk on my thread and so few post. Howcome?

Jen

Jen I painted with a broad brush in the previous post to give you something to ponder.

I think the level of emotion he shows means there are steal feelings but I think they have become unhealthy feelings.

NOTHING says you can't remarry him somewhere down the road. After all both of you will eventually want to have mates. So if its meant to be then your paths will cross again...if not it wasn't meant to be.

I have told you this before and I will say it again.. let a qualifed third party like a lawyer or mediator handle this.

Both of you are too emotional charged to handle this with a clear head.

Not to some specifics regarding his comments. Yes he can give thinks to charity but I am quite certain he will be giving away his 1/2 of marital assets not both of your halves.

This threat is exactly why you need professionals involved to protect your interests.

I would at bare minimum file for legal seperation if your state allows that if not go ahead and file for divorce.

There is still time to reconcile and you might have the lawyers --- NOT YOU ---- include some phrasing to that affect. It will take at least a month for things to become final and during that time you can wait and see how things go.

s_d, I can see that you are trying to give me some insight into my H with the other post.

Yes he can give thinks to charity but I am quite certain he will be giving away his 1/2 of marital assets not both of your halves. Hmmm, so whatever he gives away at this point could be considered him giving away his half? Not mine too? I find that very interesting.

I would at bare minimum file for legal seperation if your state allows that if not go ahead and file for divorce. We are already legally separated. All that took was moving into separate bedrooms. As far as a legal separation agreement, that's what I was trying to get him to agree to let a lawyer write up for us (using our old homemade one as a base) with some of the concessions I was asking for. He refuses, and says he will only abide by the original. Here in Canada in Alberta you either file for divorce and include a legal separation agreement with it, so all matrimonial assets are already divided up, or you file for divorce and file some sort of request to your spouse asking for some things and then wait and see if you get them.

Jen

Jen, I'm confused. Why did you allow him to hold you? Why did you sit and watch tv with him? Why did you answer the phone and even answer him?

He starts the games, and you keep them going. Your actions do not match your words. I've offended others at times by telling people this, but truthfully, if you look at the WS (and in your case it's a mixed BS/WS) and treat them like a 4 year old...you'll have better results. Because you keep expecting and wanting him to react like an adult, and he certainly isn't ready to do that. So when my 4 year old keeps bugging me with bad behaviour, I warn him of the consequences, warn him a second time, and then back it up with action. If all you ever do is ask, hope and warn...he'll keep playing you.

I would SERIOUSLY not worry about 90% of what he threatens. He's bullying you. It's pathetic. I know it hurts and it's frightening, but if you had to you COULD find a job elsewhere. And besides, Jen, have you seen the numbers of this place? It's not like MANY of those 4000 co-workers haven't experienced similiar situations in one fashion or another. Not to mention the fact that your H is NOT ABOUT to paint himself the fool to those he considers he has some honor amoung. It's one thing to bring it to family's attention...it's a WHOLE NOTHER to bring it to work. He knows he can scare you, he knows where your buttons are. You've got to decide to move those buttons or take them clean away.

I don't think you're ready to divorce, but he's certainly not ready to reconcile. If you can't do a Plan B, and take some time just to get yourself together WITHOUT WORRYING ABOUT HIM...then go forth with your current plan. But I agree to use a mediator or have the lawyer work with his lawyer. Because the two of you don't get anywhere but back in to games.

Jen your stbxh is in need of professional help but first he has to admit that he needs help. Unfortunately there is nothing you (or anybody that cares for him) can do to help him change. He, like my ex-W, needs to hit rock bottom before he can start to change for the better. Right now he is no condition to be anybody's H.

<small>[ June 03, 2003, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Jen:

I hate it when I feel lured in2 a thread by anger, but this angered me:

"He can't slander me if he's telling the truth. I've inquired about that. Slander is spreading lies about someone. I have no legal recourse if he tells people the truth, that I slept with his best friend and that's why we're divorcing. If I can't prove he's lying, I have no case against him."

THINK! What was the WHOLE TRUTH of those TWO (count 'em, 2!!!) ONSs with his friend. How would it sound 2 those people he "tells the truth" 2 that he listened outside the door BOTH TIMES 2 his W and his BF going at it, and did nothing 2 stop it???

Sorry, angry outburst concluded. Jen, Spacecase keeps telling me over and over and over and over and over again that I need 2 stop worrying about what my W and RM may be saying or doing behind my back and focus on ME. Heck, a LOT of people (H4F included) have been doing that. It's been almost 17 months since D-day, and I'd LIKE 2 be able 2 tell them that I'm finally "getting it." When did I first realize what they were saying is true? Read my thread "Time for plan D" again and see what I did just a few weeks ago. I got so wrapped up in my own hurt that I lashed out at everybody here, on iloveulove.com, and even my W, blaming everybody but myself for my own thought processes. What started me thinking about this was my W's reaction when I walked in the bedroom one evening and she said "I tried reading that article you sent me (about misguided therapy methods that SC posted on iloveulove.com), but it was 2long." She didn't even say she didn't agree with it, or my reasons for sending it 2 her (in fact, she agreed with it!). What did I say? I said something like "I've had it! I'm getting such conflicting advice from everybody and all the books I'm reading, and none of it is helping our M, that I just give up!" She wasn't even in a bad mood up until then. It 2k me several more days 2 realize that ALL of my fears were mushrooming out of control in my OWN HEAD, and making an admittedly unfavorable si2ation seem completely intolerable for 2 minutes more. Never mind what she and RM were saying 2 each other. I could have no positive, M-saving influence on that in the state of mind I was in.

It was time for me 2 let go of ALL my resentment. And since that's very hard 2 do, the next best thing is 2 "observe it" when it rears it's ugly head and refuse 2 let it overcome me. Since I read Tolle's "The Power of Now" I've been getting better able 2 do that. And the most amazing thing happened as a result of it this past weekend. Some of this is on my "elephants" thread, so I won't repeat it all here. But the upshot is that, even when I still harbored thoughts of resentment for RM still talking 2 my W, I was able 2 recognize that for what it was, observe that reaction objectively, and NOT let it drive my behavior the whole weekend. I must have been more outwardly cheerful than I realized, because SHE became more cheerful than I've seen her in years.

I'm not saying that if you do something like this, your H will suddenly be barrels more fun 2 be around. YOU will be more fun 2 be around, though, and that can't but help any and all of your relationships with those around you.

Try 2 remember, when worrying about the fallout of all this if you should decide 2 DV: It really won't be what's happened that you're remembered for - heck, who can really even remember what REALLY happened? - it will be who you are and how you handle adversity that you will be remembered for.

I think you're a terrific person. You just need 2 change your focus. It's not what your H thinks of you that's important at all. What does Jen think of Jen? Who is Jen? If you look deeply enough, I think you'll find someone you can really admire and respect.

-ol' 2long

Jen, I think 2long said it best in that you will be remembered by how you handled adversity. You have been remarkable under this pressure for someone quite young. I can tell you I am one of the lurkers and have followed your story for a long time before actually even becoming a member here. I think the most compelling reason people follow your story so closely is because almost all of us would love to have such a remorseful FWS. The only suggestion I can give you is to ask you husband if this is how he would like to be treated should he make a mistake, even if in a future relationship. Is their absolutely no room for error in a 50 year marriage? Or will he always walk away in times or crisis?

I have lost a best friend as a result of my wifes affair as well. I don't hate the guy but I realize like Chorus that we won't be drinking beers together anymore. Yes, it hurts but by the same token I feel that if I could see many good qualities in the OM then I can understand how W was attracted to him. I hope that makes sense. Whereas if it was just some stranger that she let walk into her life I would have felt much more betrayed because I would have felt she was looking for action. Yes, the affairs have been the most painful episode in my life without a doubt, but I never felt my wife did it to hurt me.
You're husband can't seem to seperate the two.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So many people lurk on my thread and so few post. Howcome?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How about this for a reason? Yesterday, I was at a PC at my workplace, and had typed up a very long response to you. The PC that I was on is not normally used for using the keyboard with, as it is used for monitoring only. Anyway, since it is a little awkward to use, needless to say I had just finished my reply and was looking over it, and "POOF!"...Somehow I deleted over half of my reply.

Well...I got pi$$ed. I deleted the rest of it(no need to post HALF the story), and stormed out of here in a huff. Said "scr3w it".

Now, here I was at the same PC again, and you caused me to walk out in the parking lot to my truck, get out the notebook, and come in here and reply. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

If I can gather my thoughts from yesterday, I'll try to say them again. First of all, think about my ordeal from losing my post yesterday. I will be referring back to it later in this reply.

Jen, I see one of two things happening here. Looking back at my sitch, and trying to honestly think of my reactions, and possible reactions to my XW's A, I came up with this....

Is it possible that no matter how you tried to convey your remorse, that no matter how strongly you felt remorseful, that your H didn't "get it"? Remember, your remorse is only as good as it is received by the other party. Could there be something that your H was looking for, and didn't see it? Not saying that you weren't honest and sincere in your desire to repair and right the wrong, but more so that HE just couldn't grasp it?

I ask that because I can honestly see where I could be that way. I can see where my XW would have had to do something out of this world to convince me at certain times that she was truly sorry (She never EVEN tried, BTW).

So...what I am saying...Is did your sorrow meet HIS standard? Maybe he has set a standard that NO ONE could even reach?

I also can see now where my XW's "window of opportunity" is gone. It no longer exists. Each of us has our own time frame for things like this that we work with. Should my XW come to me now, and meet my "standard" of convincing, the "window" is no longer there. Maybe everything that is needed for your recovery is there, but the timing wasn't?

But, here is where I think the problem is. Think back to my escapades with my "lost" post to you yesterday...

Control. It's sometimes all about control...

I think you H sees totally wrecking and finishing off your M as his way of control. For you to have an A, put him through the hurt, and then put it all back together, is, to him, you with all the power. I say that because of a lot of your posts referring to him always belittleing you, putting you down, etc. Even the SF is him in control in his mind.

Pride can be a big thing to us in the male world. I can relate to my earlier years where I could have been capable of what he is doing. I would have much rather did something MYSELF to destroy my M, than to have to live with the fact of HER betraying me. Some men find rejection, especially for another man, EXTREMELY hard to handle.

FWIW, men WILL make fun of other men when they have been "jilted" or "cuckold". Luckily, though, in seriousness such as my XW's A and subsequent DV, they do seem to find the decency to not do that until they are pretty well convinced that one has healed for the most part. I know. I have heard the jokes, and comments.

And some men will put themselves into situations into "See...I showed her, by gawd!". Just about where he is now. That is childishly replenishing the "manly" thing that he feels has been taken away.

Like with my post to you yesterday, I chose to completely redo the WHOLE thing, instead of just "fixing" HALF of it. Why? Because that damned PC has just controlled me. I got back at it. (Yep..Childish).

So why doesn't HE file? Because to do that takes him out of the situation. You can't have control if you're not a part of it. Sometimes I think that he is capable of ending the M altogether, satisfying himself, and yet you and he building it back all because his mind will tell him that everything is different. Different in that a "new" R with you is OK. He won't see that until it happens, though. Like my ordeal with the PC.

I have said it before, and I'll say it again...He will keep this up forever if you let him. I think he is so angry that another true, committed R is the farthest thing from his mind, and is happy as a little lark just keeping things as they are. He's living like he's single, yet he has YOU on hold. Your tug-of-war is going to get old.

Let go of the rope, Jen. 'Cause when YOU let go, he's gonna fall on HIS a$$.

HCII

Why are so many reading and so few responding? Well, as hcii said, one of the reasons could very well be that the posts are getting deleted before they get online (goodness knows, that's happened to me more times than I care to recall. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ).

I can only speak for myself, and I know that when I read your posts, it's always the same things, over and over again. That "tug of war" that was mentioned. I did notice a HUGE breakthrough for you, when you started this thread using your H's side of the story. That was great. You also answered a LOT of your own questions in there.

I have a few questions for you Jen:

1) What is it that you want us to tell you? You've been given all of the same advice over and over again. That's not going to change. If what you need from us are sympathetic "cyber hugs", then that's fine. Just let us know what it is that you want, so that we can do it for you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

2) Have you ever actually asked your H what it is that he wants you to do? My guess, is that he doesn't really know... and that is quite apparent in his responses/rebuttles to you, and his childish behaviour all around. Have you ever figured out what he needs from you? Other than the control issues he has, there is obviously a great need for SF. Is there anything else?

I also wanted to make a comment on your H's threat to tell anyone and everyone that you had the A with OM and THAT is why you're apart: I don't think he'd do it. Why? Because it makes him look like a TERRIBLE husband. This is crude, but a societal stereotype nonetheless... wasn't he good enough for you in the bedroom? doesn't he have a poor choice in friends? didn't he make a poor choice for a W, who could do that to him? And IMO, worst of all, how come he couldn't control his own W??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Because you're a woman, you will not get the same responsibility of your actions by the general public. I am NOT saying that is right... in fact, these stereotypes are some of the main reasons why such abusive acts in relationships continue... but it is the way "society" will think, if you H "blabs" out the truth.

That being said, let him talk. You know the truth. You understand why you made the poor choices that you made. And you've done MORE than most would to rectify the situation.

Karen

Hi Jen,

You said:
"So many people lurk on my thread and so few post."

I am one of the on again/off again lurkers.

You asked:
"Howcome?"

Is this a rhetorical question or a question you would like answered?

Take care

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"So many people lurk on my thread and so few post."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're kidding us, right?

Jen, I look at the thread titles and their originators, and your threads, in terms of responses, are the envy of newbies and oldies alike. Why would you think that few people respond to them when the evidence shows the opposite?

Well, I think this was said in advance by at least two people on D/D, but since you tossed your separation agreement, of course he is upset and will now try to protect himself. First you had the affair, now you are filing for divorce and have lawyered up, and you are going after whatever the lawyers tell you they can get.

He might have threatened many things in response, without knowing what his legal options really are, and without having prepared for this ahead of time. Maybe you should not focus on specific threats he made, but do expect him to get "businesslike" about this. If not hiding assets, there are probably things he can do that are legal in Alberta. There is no other way to do approach this, nice guys finish last, etc. Isn't that how you've approached the divorce process?

You should plan on him telling his version to anyone that needs a reason for this divorce. I don't think he should be doing this just for revenge. But it's a lot easier than giving some version of "things just didn't work out". I'm not proud of being the BS, but I'd rather that, than have my kids or parents or inlaws think I didn't try hard enough. Nobody (except here, within limits) expects the BS to stay in a marriage. So it's an easy explanation, and as you pointed out, it's not slander.

You've reported that he's been abusive, controlling, drinking, had EAs, or whatever during this past year. We don't hear his side, but, I'm afraid you've been torturing him this past year. Why did you have sex with him at all during separation? Because he wanted it so much, right? Why did you go up and sit on the bed after having this divorce discussion? Wasn't that manipulative? Have you been sending consistent signals, or mixed signals?

My take on his behavior, is that he's going nuts in the lay sense of the term, not necessarily the clinical sense. If he ends up "doing something", that will be his responsibility and his fault. Maybe he needs professional help, but for sure, he needs to get away from you, have as clean and quick a break as possible. This divorce process is only going to pile on the pressure.

Since it's been a year of separation, and he's still not sure what he wants, probably the marriage cannot be saved. Something would have to change from this past year, and I have no idea what.

Assuming you are going to divorce him, but still care about him, my suggestion is first, that you just do the quick divorce according to your unofficial separation agreement. Sure you could fight for more, but you are only 30, have your career, and have no kids. I don't see what the problem is. Maybe it's your pride? And second, keep your distance after the divorce. With no kids, there should be no continuing entanglements.

I think you will have an easier time recovering from this, than your husband will. So bear that in mind when thinking about the money.

Jen

I think topie said it well. I just don't know what else to say. You and your husband having been doing the same dance just a different day for some time now.(I would venture to say that you two have always played some sort of tug-of-war game throughout your relationship, now it has just gotten messier)

The patterns are the same. His treatment your reactions. Their are flashes of change but these flashes are short lived.

One poster questioned how can you sit and watch TV with him after the way he acts...I agree...Things in your marriage are terribly wrong, the facade of normalcy after every confrontation just prolongs the uncertainty. Yes he is your husband but your own words have told us he also: hates you, would ruin your career, and leave you bankrupt...(Not that I totally agree but these are your feelings acknowledge them and act upon them...people do not sit and make nice with other people who are plotting to destroy them)

I think of you alot but I truly don't know if what is said is relevant.

Do you realize how short lived the boundaries you set are?

Protect yourself, heal yourself, change yourself...YOU CANNOT CHANGE HIM.

ayslyne

First, I'm going to recopy my original reply, because I think it still has merit...

Jen,
I've followed your posts..just never responded. And though this response doesn't exactly follow your questions....well..it is what I perceive.

He has gone from being dreadfully hurt to being dreadfully emotionally abusive. Reminds me of a cat toying with a mouse. Um...how to say this...I don't think this sort of behavior would stop if you were to reconcile..I think it would escalate. Yeah, it's real sad, and yes, the A was the spark. However...this sort of behavior may have been there even before the A and just "dormant"...who knows.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that while you have a certain amount of responsibility in the break up of your marriage..;you have very little responsibility in how he chosses to cope with it. Your only control is how you conduct yourself.

That said, it doesn't really matter what you both may have said years ago about lawyers and such..what matters is the here and now.

I think protecting yourself as much as possible emotionally, physically and financially are all good ideas. You can only be the victim of so much blood letting..eventually you will dry up.

So, while I have been a BS..I've never been a BS with the type of smoldering and all encompassing vengence your particular BS seems to hold.

Protect yourself,
T

After reading what happened, my fears for you have intensified...financially and emotionally abused..still the same diagnosis..but with a twist...he likes it...he likes to humiliate you, scare you and control you...he gets pleasure out of it.

I hope you have gone to your lawyer asap...I also hope you have current copies of any financial assets..so that when and if he does start filtering and hiding assets, you can prove him wrong.

What other people think? Jen...been there done that...few really care.
T

hope4future said: Why did you allow him to hold you? Why did you sit and watch tv with him? Why did you answer the phone and even answer him? I guess it's habit combined with fear. I also am a bit of a manipulator I suppose, and almost hope that if I continued to act like I cared, maybe he'd be less likely to go for my throat with divorce proceedings. I agree it's time the games came to an end.

I have an appointment with my lawyer on Friday (earliest I could get in, she is good, so she's busy!). I'm done interacting directly with my H at all. I am going to seek her legal counsel.

Indeed TMCM, he needs professional help, but he prefers to keep his head stuck in the sand, a glass of booze in his hand, and pity party music playing in the background.

'ol 2long said: it will be who you are and how you handle adversity that you will be remembered for. Indeed indeed. If he wants to sling mud, he can go ahead, but I'm not going to get into that war. Frankly I don't care very much about what he thinks of me. I also think he SUCKS at handling adversity. Mr. big and strong and more wise and intelligent than stupid me (or so he says) sure isn't doing very well under pressure.

I went to my principal today and explained about my separation and how things are getting nasty as we move towards divorce, and explained my H's threats to air our dirty laundry to anyone who will listen in our school district. He was helpful and supportive. For one, he said in all his years of teaching and life, anyone he's known who's gotten divorced ended up getting ugly, it's near impossible to divorce amicably. He simply said for me not to take sh!! from anyone, including my H, b/c I deserve far better, and if my H does start blabbing, wise people will realize that's one side of the story, etc,etc. I also may have some recourse through our professional association, so if my H does start blabbing, I just document it and report him. So to an extent I've disarmed my H b/c at least one very important person in the district (my principal) will already know our marriage fell apart and that I have done nearly everything I can to help repair it to no avail, so if anyone starts gossipping, he at least knows how truly torn up I am over this mess, and will likely halt bad rumours in their tracks.

walkingoneggs wrote: The only suggestion I can give you is to ask you husband if this is how he would like to be treated should he make a mistake, even if in a future relationship. Oh I've asked that. His fast and smart alecky reply was that he would never make such a mistake so there's no point in asking that. Also your rational for why it's almost better that the A was with a BF and not a stranger makes sense to me. I doubt my H would care to listen to it.

Now I have to apologize for my whiny question about why so many people lurk and so few people post. A very pent up and frustrated Jen who was overly anxious for replies wrote that. I totally understand about how frustrating it is when you write a whole huge post and then you're told "you must be logged in to perform this function". I've taken to opening two windows at once now, just so I can go sign in again in the second one and use copy and paste to keep my typing from disappearing.

hcii wrote: Is it possible that no matter how you tried to convey your remorse, that no matter how strongly you felt remorseful, that your H didn't "get it"? Remember, your remorse is only as good as it is received by the other party. Could there be something that your H was looking for, and didn't see it? Not saying that you weren't honest and sincere in your desire to repair and right the wrong, but more so that HE just couldn't grasp it? BINGO. He told me last night that I have never really shown remorse, and that I've never really taken full responsibility for my mistakes. His big problem is that I still obviously harbour large amounts of resentment towards him and his friendships with those two females, and I am not capable of hiding it, so it tarnishes my remorse in his eyes I guess.

did your sorrow meet HIS standard? Maybe he has set a standard that NO ONE could even reach? I do think that maybe there is no way I could ever be remorseful enough for him, not unless I also said something insane like "It was totally okay for you to have those female friends, and even to spend so much more time with them since we've separated. I want to be friends with them too, b/c they are amazing." I WILL NEVER SAY THAT, because I WILL NEVER be their friends again. That is an IRON boundary.

Control. It's sometimes all about control...I think you H sees totally wrecking and finishing off your M as his way of control. For you to have an A, put him through the hurt, and then put it all back together, is, to him, you with all the power. I say that because of a lot of your posts referring to him always belittleing you, putting you down, etc. Even the SF is him in control in his mind....Pride can be a big thing to us in the male world.. Oh yes indeed, this all makes A LOT of sense.

So why doesn't HE file? Because to do that takes him out of the situation. You can't have control if you're not a part of it. Wow, never thought of that before. I guess it really makes sense.

He will keep this up forever if you let him. Yes indeed, I hear you loud and clear, and I'm sorry you've had to repeat yourself. Thanks hcii for taking the time to retype all that your ornery pc lost. Some good insight here!

Hi Topie, I'll try to answer your questions now:
1) What is it that you want us to tell you? I guess I just want to hear what others see and feel is going on, people other than me who seems stuck in routine and bad habits, and unable to break out of the cycle.

2) Have you ever actually asked your H what it is that he wants you to do? Yes, and he's said "I don't know, I don't want to think, I refuse to think." He's also said "let me get through one thing (grieving for his father) before I deal with another (us)." At one point he asked for more time, and he's also said several times that he wants me to do whatever he wants whenever he wants, and that includes coming over for sex when he wants. WHATEVER. Have you ever figured out what he needs from you? Sex and control are all that come to mind, really.

I agree with you that for the most part I really doubt he'll blab to everyone b/c it does make him look bad too. Thanks for letting me know I'm not the only one who thinks that. As he's said himself, it makes him look like he "couldn't meet my needs". That, and SO many people have asked for years how I could put up with his female friendships, they'd likely bring that up if he said anything.

LovingBoundaries: Whiny and rhetorical, no need to answer.

Tmmx said: Why did you go up and sit on the bed after having this divorce discussion? Wasn't that manipulative? Have you been sending consistent signals, or mixed signals? Yes indeed, I was being manipulative. I have been sending mixed signals, and I acknowledge that this is manipulative too. I wanted to keep him wondering whether I really would go after him for everything, so he doesn't run out and liquidate his assets and come after me with his own lawyer.

Assuming you are going to divorce him, but still care about him, my suggestion is first, that you just do the quick divorce according to your unofficial separation agreement. Sure you could fight for more, but you are only 30, have your career, and have no kids. I don't see what the problem is. Maybe it's your pride? Yup, I've got my own fair share of pride that it's hard to quiet down. That plan of action may be wiser than wasting lots of money on legal fees. But I'm going to check with my lawyer first though.

ayslyne said: Do you realize how short lived the boundaries you set are? I guess I do, and I'm a bit ashamed how pathetic I am at maintaining them. At least I've successfully cut off sex. It took me a long time to get there.

Indeed, I can see the value of no more contact. I often foolishly resume it b/c I place way too much importance on what he and his family will think of me after a Dv. I should only care what I think and what people who truly care about me think. I know this, but it's hard to put into action.

Whew, sorry for the book. Thanks a million for everyone's posts. I appreciate you guys and your willingness to repeat yourselves so that it gets through my thick skull eventually.

Jen

oops!

<small>[ June 04, 2003, 12:44 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

As I was reading someone else's thread, I just remembered that my H said yesterday that he has even considered suicide on a few occasions. I stopped the conversation and asked if he was serious, and he said yes he has those thoughts. I didn't know how else to reply, I think I told him how sorry I was for all that I'd done to cause him pain, and how I never could ever begin to imagine how he feels, etc.

I wonder if he meant it or if it was to manipulate me into not asking for more in the Dv settlement.

I'm a bit mad at myself for not reminding him what a selfish solution suicide is. I think he knows better than to do that to his already grieving mom though. I think we talked about that before once, months ago.

Oh well, time for bed yet again!

G'nite all,

Jen

Okay, here's a deep thought. I read how someone on another thread over "in recovery" has a fear of abandonment after their mother died when they were young.

I think my H is afraid to form attachments to anyone right now since a) his wife who he trusted betrayed him, b) his best friend who he trusted betrayed him, and c) his father who he loved and needed has died so unexpectedly and in a sense left him before he was ready for him to leave. Triple burn, so no wonder he isolates himself so much and is afraid to build relationships with anyone. Sound plausible to anyone else?

I feel really sorry for him. He certainly didn't deserve any of this pain, no matter if he can be arrogant and manipulative and controlling.

(But, still, I know he really needs some professional help, and that me thinking I've figured him out won't save our marriage or get him to and take some action to get some help for himself. In the state he is in, he just wants an endless amount of time to somehow get over it all, and meanwhile treat me poorly. I still just want to get on with life and divorce him, because I don't envision him treating me lovingly ever again.)

Jen

<small>[ June 04, 2003, 07:54 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>