OK, TMCM, for me, a seperation letter would have taken too long. I wasn't going to sit and live like that. I wanted him out of my house with no reason to *have* to come back. I didn't want to see him, I didn't want to have him come and get anything. The thought of him and what he did made me want to barf.

Sorry, I agree with Lisa, she is doing the right thing for her. Hasn't she been through enough? Do we have to critique her emotional fortitude? Do you have to tell her she is wrong for being done with what he is giving her(a lot of gried and being with OW) What *I* am reading with her post is that she is over it. Over all of it and if it ends the marriage, so be it. If it saves it, so much the better.

Lisa, I hope you are doing ok. Please don't let this bit of bickering within your thread upset you. I think what you did was corageous and strong.

Naive I'm not telling Lisa what to do either, BUT if she is serious about following Plan A/Plan B then she is NOT doing a good job at it by resorting to throw her WH's belonging out, and everybody patting her on the back and saying to her 'You Go Girl!' is NOT doing her any favors either. To say that it is part of Plan B is ludicrous at best.

<small>[ June 14, 2003, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

WHY is it ludicrous??? BECAUSE IT IS NOT "WRITTEN" to be "THE RIHGT WAY"

If it gets results will it still be WRONG??

AGAIN there are PLENTY here who did the transition from PLAN A to PLAN B and there M still did not recover . SO then it is ok .???

NO I am sorry , it has to do with the indivual BS& WS .

If I would have served my WS with separation papers and PLAN B letter , he would have taken that as ATTACK this is war and went straight for D .

THAT is his personality and accompanied with FOG , IT would have sent him running for good .

I belive in PLAN A all the way until then I still feel it is different for the transion to PLAN B .

THE situation will determine that .

LISA please post soon and I hope and pray you are ok .

YOU have been understanding to WS and communicating very well and have been pacient .

I am praying for you and your WS .

3isacrowd, my H would have been done if I had served seperation papers. He would have taken that as one more abandonment in his life.

His father tried to talk me into cleaning out all our accts, to make him wake up and if not wake up, at least I got to them before him and would have the money. His Dad flipped me out, his Dad's advice would have ended the marriage, that would have been war then.

Seperation papers would have made it legal in his mind to become a true couple with the OW. My method(being I know him and his mind well) was exactly what was needed. Less would have been pointless, more would have been destructive.

Principles are one thing, reality is another. I followed MB pricinples without ever reading the book. I had no clue about MB till about a month after DDay. My actions were for ME. They served to regain what monstrous amounts of pride and self respect he took during that A. It was a public announcement that yes, I am a dumb @%$, but I am not taking it anymore thank you very much. My H, though really really hacked off at the embarrassment, saw the strength I had and had respect for me.

If at the same time I threw his stuff out, called him and ow names, or screamed at him, that would be very different.

A person can only take so much before you just don't have it left to take. I think that is where Lisa is. She has already done it, I don't think it is helping her to tell her how wrong she is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"WHY is it ludicrous??? BECAUSE IT IS NOT "WRITTEN" to be "THE RIHGT WAY" "</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly. There is a HUGE difference between telling a WH, in a letter, that you love him and wish to rebuild the M but that the pain of continued contact with the OW is too great and that to save the last bit of love left for him, you want no further contact until he ends the A and expresses a desire to rebuild the M using the MB principles, AND simply throwing his belongings out and kicking out.

NOBODY, least of all Dr Harley, says that doing a flawless Plan A/Plan B is guaranteed to bring the WS back, but from his experience which encompases thousands of couples over many decades it gives the BS his/her best shot to save the M. Frankly I put my faith in the good doctors knowledge and experience than the folks offering feel good advice.

I doubt that the vast majority that have used such tactic have been succesful. I know, because I've met many BS that did that and only a handful got the results you got, the rest only ended having their WS filing for divorce.

<small>[ June 14, 2003, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Separation papers is a right way, is the legal way but may not be the only way.

Here's how I see it, you can do the separation but the act of reducing the stress still needs to be done. If the WS is trying to maintain some sort of control by leaving his/her things that is their choice. If those things are causing undue pain and suffering to the BS and family, then it is the BS' choice to remove them. If it can not be done in a amicable fashion (I gave my WS the opportunity to move his stuff out..... 4 weeks the first time), then the BS has to do what it takes to make her/him feel safe.

Taking things to work? Well I have a laundry bag story where I took a grocery bag and put 1 day of his laundry on her front door! Comic relief? At the time, BS relief is what I needed and I got it. NOw I don't advocate it for all but in my case, I needed relief and I did it in a safer manner. How? Well I can't go into detail but I did not break any laws. OW tried to pin one on me but I did know what I was doing and she tried to take it to a different level. In the end even the WS was laughing.

When choosing what to do, be safe, don't be sorry.

Lisa, your emotions are running high right now. Be careful you don't let them run away with your thoughts. There are many things you can do without getting into trouble that will bring you some 'relief'. Choose wisely.

Gender may come into play here. When a W does things vs her H, people including the police view it differently. This puts the BS H's in a more difficult position. However, when all see a WS W out there, sometimes the tables turn. Because to society, a WS W is worse than a WS H. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

JMHO,
L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid:

"Gender may come into play here. When a W does things vs her H, people including the police view it differently. This puts the BS H's in a more difficult position. However, when all see a WS W out there, sometimes the tables turn. Because to society, a WS W is worse than a WS H."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh I agree, and in fact I have no doubt that MAYBE some of the same group yelling 'throw the bum out' would be reluctant to offering the same advice if the roles had been reversed.

In cases where you have a BH and WW, guess who is kicked out of the house? Not the WW.

<small>[ June 14, 2003, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

TMCM,

In the long run it is the family who suffers regardless of who exists, where and when.

It is much easier to put the Ws H's stuff out but there are other ways to bring a WS W's issues out. Same results (bring some relief to the BS and family - give the WS less control).

Now how the BS makes their choices is up to each BS individually.

L.

I agree with you Orchid and I was just making an observation regarding the gender differences you brought up in your closing statements. It seems that we have a double standard in the way we treat a WH and the way we treat a WW.

<small>[ June 14, 2003, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Not double standard TMCM, different tactic. Same objective. Parents and spouses are a single name for 2 very different roles within each name. So how each parent or spouse is treated in a given situation is different.

ex: hugging your mom vs shaking your dad's hand may be how some parents want to be treated. H giving a W flowers while the W gives her H a great home made dinner are other ways of doing the same thing.

So reaction in an A, it is the same. Each may require a different technique to get the same results.

L.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Sorry Orchid I don't agree. If it quacks like a double standard, walks like a double standard, and looks like a double standard, it is a double standard. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<small>[ June 14, 2003, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

She said she did write him a plan B letter and gave it to him....

I thought she was just following through...now...

delayed...but following through..

I don't think anyone is cheering her on in throw the bum out...

I think people are trying to offer support to an adult decision that enough is enough...

we don't even know if she had his stuff sitting by the door and with great care simply told him to take his things and go...since he has CHOSEN such blatant continued contact. It is really he who has chosen....

no one is saying you go girl in a gender biased male bashing...way

I would say you go girl if you (she/he) have decided once and for all that you can not take anymore pain in your world....that's a hard definitive decision to make...but it is infair to say that is what causes the demise of a marriage.

ARK

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
<strong> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Sorry Orchid I don't agree. If it quacks like a double standard, walks like a double standard, and looks like a double standard, it is a double standard. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TMCM,

IMHO, it can only be a double standard if the 'players' were exactly the same. But a female vs male make up/perspective is very different. This difference has it's benefits and challenges.

L.

Orchid I guess this time we will just have to agree to disagree.

I know the other ladies are going to be sad but this will be my last post on this thread (I beleive I heard applause in the background <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ).

Lisa I really do wish you the best and I hope that things turn around with regards to your WH. Take care.

<small>[ June 14, 2003, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Hey TMCM,

I do want you to know that I appreciate your objective opinons. You have helped many. Sharing viewpoints are always helpful.

I certainly don't want to be the one to run you off from this thread. If it is helping Lisa see both sides of her issue, then our little debate was worthwhile. U should have been here a couple of years ago when the words really used to fly. LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

take care, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

L.

Hey Everyone,

I did not know I could start such a firestorm!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Oh but how I appreciate each and every post. I am seeing both sides of my reaction or actions as it may be. I really dont have time to post right now but please know I am fine and H is still home. Coffee and 3 (on another thread) have made some good points. As did Orchid, ark and naive. I want to give you guys alittle background about us and situation and maybe things maybe clearer. I cant do that right now but will very soon. I am still feeling very strong even though H is still here. And by the way if anyone talks to Coffeeman..please tell him to come back. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Once again you guys are all wonderful and I will be back shortly..Just know I am doing just fine.

L

Orchid and Lisa, thank you both for your kindness and open mindedness (this in no way implies that I don't consider ark, naive and 3isacrowd anything less themselves) and I just want you to know that I'm not retiring from the thread because I feel hounded off in any way, shape or form. I have the upmost respect for ALL the folks here and disagreeing with some of my fellow MBers in no way diminishes my respect for them. The reason why I'm retiring from this thread is because I beleive that it may help other folks, who could be a little squeamish, from giving their valuable opinions on this thread and may beleive that I'm going to pounce on them for giving it (I've got to admit that sometimes my opinions may have the effect of a raging bull inside a china shop). Who knows, somebody may chime in with something totally brilliant and overlooked by us, the participants in this thread. Take care and have a great weekend.

Coffee,

Thank you and I totally understand..I hope you will at least keep reading this thread. I havent had time this weekend to post, but have plenty to say. Honestly, Coffee it was after reading your post that made rethink my actions and goals in this situation. The post helped me regain my emotions and to see clearly once again. Thank you.

But hearing everyones opinions have also helped tremedously, because there may be a time in the near future that I will have to Plan B.

Talk to everyone soon..

Hugs to all.

Hi Everyone,

Hope everyone had a nice Father's Day. Ours was spent getting ready to open our pool.

I guess you all must think I only make threats and dont go through with them, but this is not the case. I have never told him to get out if he keeps seeing her. I have been trying to Plan A the best I can and H has commented to me about the big difference in me the past 2 weeks. I guess it is working. I think I packed his stuff because I knew for sure he was seeing OW Fri nite (dont ask how <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) and he pretended like he was coming home. I really dont think it was so much as him seeing OW but how he just went about his day and acted so nonchalant.

There were many factors for me changing my mind: I guess the biggest was that I relized that H has noticed the difference in me so I must be doing Plan A okay. Secondly, we have five children and our own business. In regards to the business, I need to be able to have some control of that. If H was gone I would lose that control and I cant let that happen. We have been having financial problems and are starting to see our way out of them. Also I feel as though I would been ruining our kids summer and I dont want to do that. My family is the most important thing to me and I am putting them first. One of us has to and right now that person is me. Dont get me wrong H is a great father, but can still look into his kids eyes when he comes home from OW <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> . H was also thrown out of his parents house at the age of 16 and didnt talk to family for 7 years afterwards. He has some abandonment problems and that is the last thing I want him to feel again. But please do know that H said he deserves to be thrown out. Also know I am firmly setting boundaries without demands.

I think I am going to give this Plan A until the end of the summer. I feel strong enough to do that. H is in IC and we are in MC together.

Last nite we had a little crisis with my daughter (13yr from previous marriage). She was at her dads and was very upset. Anywhere long story short I talked to her on the phone and calmed her down and talked about the situation that upset her so much until basically it was resolved. When I finally hung up with her my H turned to me and said "I am so impressed how you handled that." "I dont think I have ever seen your head screwed on so straight since I have known you." So basically what I am getting out is that I know I am strong enough to continue Plan A, particulary when H responds like that. Dont get me wrong, I know I will have some rocky days, but that is when I am gonna reach out to all you wonderful people. Thanks for listening..Hope I get some responses.

Lisa,

One thing I want you to hear is this quote:

"When your spouse is trying to decide between you and the lover, it's time for Plan B."
...Willard F. Harley Jr. PhD.

The whole point of Plan A is to get your spouse to the point where he sees your marriage as an attractive alternative....and to END THE AFFAIR. Timing is relevant and important. Plan A is all about the spouse....he gets treated well, even though he is trampling on your heart...and it is so hard on the BS. It is tolerable because of what it achieves...no more A. If you try to do a Plan A for too long, several things can happen....first, your H becomes a cake eater who has the luxury of having his needs met by two women and has no desire to change once it becomes apparent that both will tolerate the situation. Secondly, because Plan A is so stressful because of the pain to the BS....that keeping hold of the LBs is very very hard to accomplish....and it is very easy to lose the edge and miss the right opportunity for Plan B to have any effect.

I don't want to press you either way...but I think that your timing should revolve around when you have the best chance of helping your marriage....and not the summer issue.

Good Luck