Hey 2Long,

Just wanted to bust your whatevers for a minute (all in fun!).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Holy Moly, Mother of Cripes! I guess spiritual atheists don't stand a snowball's chance in the frying pan of Haydes of being listened 2?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was wondering...what exactly is a spiritual atheist? Sounds like a contradiction in terms.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">At least my first and foremost advice has been and always will be: "Never take advice!"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And by using your advice, she shouldnt use your advice!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I trust Jen will make her own right decisions. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do also. I think she is doing great under the circumstances!

MM:

"I was wondering...what exactly is a spiritual atheist? Sounds like a contradiction in terms."

Ac2ally, it's not. It is possible 2 be spiri2al without being religious, just like it's possible 2 have faith without being religious.

"quote:
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At least my first and foremost advice has been and always will be: "Never take advice!"
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And by using your advice, she shouldnt use your advice!!"

Absolutely!! She should listen 2 us if she likes what she hears, but always, ALWAYS, she should make her own decisions!

-ol' 2long

Well gee whiz some of you have been having quite the little debate! Glad my sitch could be a spring board for you.

I had a few flasbacks and thoughts this afternoon:

He said he hadn’t been drinking all week, like he’d done that b/c we were supposed to spend time together. Then he later revealed he’d been with his mom each day helping with some reno’s at her house, so that’s why he wasn’t drinking, duh.

He said if we’d gotten back together, that he would never have brought up the affair again, end of story. I have NEVER heard him say anything quite like that before. I told him that conflicted with what he told me the day we began our separation (he said he'd always bring it up and throw it in my face, so we should separate and then divorce), and he said well, maybe but that’s what he would’ve done. I tend to be cynical and think he was just saying this to make me feel worse about serving him with papers and pushing him away.

Part of why I think he was finally “waking up” was because he’s no longer buddy-buddy with the bimbos. He hasn’t really talked to one of them in four weeks he said, and he said he’s had about 10 or 12 nasty fights with the other one in the past couple of weeks. Maybe that had more to do with him coming around to me than anything, who knows.

And now for my quotes from the myriad of posts you folks made today. These ones are going into my journal for further thought.

LovingBoundaries: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen, it is not too late!!! It is time to make a decision though. If you can't have marriage recovery all on your terms, do you still want it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It can't be entirely on my terms or his, I think that's reality. We must meet in the middle.

Foreverhers: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> On the positive side, dumbness isn't fatal and most of us can learn and absorb education.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (LOL) You've both been walking away, but now the walk has a destination... reconciliation or divorce. The fork in the path is coming. Your husband does not know what he wants yet, do you? You must know what you want or the discussions will deteriorate into anger again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I want to really try being a couple again before I give up and divorce. That's what I think I want today anyway.

TMCM: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Besides, even if he doesn't wake up, he now KNOWS that the days when he could emotionally abuse you, are numbered. So something good could still come of this......
'Why does my serving you with divorce papers upset you so much, when WE have been living like we ARE divorced already?'. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would really like to ask him that! My bet is his answer would be something like, "you're right, so let's just get divorced then," all defeatest.

hopeful_person: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please, the drama of saying you've ruined your life is a bit much. From how you've described your husband, filing sounded like a very wise choice of someone who's mature enough to know they don't want to be treated as a 'thang' by a man who sounds very selfish and indulgent. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank-you for making me feel less dumb and destructive.

Mortarman: (I actually am printing and pasting your whole post into my journal, can I have copyright permission? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> lol) </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">? Well, he will be angry for awhile, no matter what you do. But I think you need to plant some seeds here that will grow as he sits down and goes through this. Write him a letter....Tell him that you are out of time. That if he wants you and this marriage, then it is time to say so and to do something about it....Then it will be up to him.
Either way it turns out, you should be EXCITED! Why? Because you are now at the beginning of the end of this mess. One way or another, you are going to get your life back very shortly. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gee whiz, I must take some time and skim your old posts. Also, thanks for the positive spin on things. It's encouraging when things seem so hopeless again.

SteadfastandComitted: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The way I understand the Harley's principles, the fact that your H is angry is a good thing. that means inside he's still willing to fight for the M. My guess is, he just doesn't understand how to do it or it will really make him go through a substantial change. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, thanks for pointing out the positive that may be there. My best friend said pretty much the same thing the other day, that she thinks he still loves me, but doesn't know what to do about it.

For now, he's gone until Sun. night, so I can relax a little. I can't accomplish much by worrying myself sick for the next couple of days. I think I'll do far better to try and just relax a little, and let my mind wander where it wants to. That's when a lot of us have the biggest and best realizations. That and I'm going to pray lots!

Jen

Jen,
I know this is hard and that you are hurting...

He said
if we’d gotten back together, that he would never have brought up the affair again, end of story. I have NEVER heard him say anything quite like that before. I told him that conflicted with what he told me the day we began our separation (he said he'd always bring it up and throw it in my face, so we should separate and then divorce), and he said well, maybe but that’s what he would’ve done. I tend to be cynical and think he was just saying this to make me feel worse about serving him with papers and pushing him away.said...

Huge red flags should go off for you on that one...you should tell him that is the last thing that you want for him and you...that the affair must be addresssed and worked through together so that both can heal and move on....that would be your wish...no ignoring it...AND not using it as a weapon...but adult like in dealing with it...

keep your eye on the big goal...yep divorce is on the table...but also perhaps for the first time...some other avenues on how to REALLY fix things perhaps this seems real enough to him that the game playing stops...

YOu should not settle for a reconcilliation that ignores such a huge issue...and his suggesting so is not acceptable...don't bite at that bait...

Jen even his emotional reaction to the lawyer involvement is better than what has been...

I am sorry for your pain....
ARK

Again, thanks for pointing out the positive that may be there. My best friend said pretty much the same thing the other day, that she thinks he still loves me, but doesn't know what to do about it.

s...? It is not whether he supposedly loves you or not. Isn't the point his behaviour? His track record reveals he is unable/incapable of healthy love, ergo does not "love" you. He has showed you who he is, yet you are unable to resist the manipulation. This (IMO) is not about love, it is a control contest, he seeks power over you and much like a fisherman who pursues tough game fish he plays you as he tries to reel you in (and you try to escape...ie to a healthy marriage, or a divorce). What I find distressing (for your sake), is though he has revealed himself, you either try to feel responsible, or think he is really someone else. You are not in the slightest responsible for who he is (or how he behaves), and I think your affair was an attempt at escape from an intuitive realization of who he really is (a narcissistic, meanspirited, power seeker), as he has revealed to you the past year.

Everyone has good traits of some kind under some circumstances, that does not mean they are safe (good marriage material). I find it hard to imagine you would have chosen to marry someone like this who acted thusly while dating, true? So you must ask yourself why you would do so now. For your part, you appear to maybe have a rescuer complex, that if you just love him enough you will transform him, that is a dangerous habit to indulge in. People do not change jen, very much anyways. His behaviour (assuming you have reported it accurately) is way way beyond some hurt feelings (and excessive selfishness), and acceptable anger (things ammenable to change), you have found out who he really is, and that is who he will remain. If he has in fact given up the bimbos, he may give you enough to regain regular sexual access to you, get you back under his dominion, mess with your head, the old push/pull co-dependent routine. If you agree to this umpteenth one more chance, be tough, ignore his words, and judge your continued participation based on behavioiur. He should willingly follow the rules of protection, agree (and follow) intensive counselling, and meet your needs. Be sure you hold your continued participation to these standards, don't be bought off with lots of phoney promises etc. ACTIONS. Given the facts I think your safety is better served by divorcing, and telling him you will date him exclusively (and he you), and do all this stuff that way, that clarifys your life, puts control back in your hands, and makes him earn your trust and love.

I suspect his real motivation is money, he wants time to hide/dispose of it. Be wary of any such efforts. I also think it is about power, if there is any dumping to be done, it will be by him, bgawd, when HE is ready, yada yada yada. In any event, you have come a long ways, apply the standards of a safe healthy relationship you have learned here, and whatever else you do, DO NOT get pregnant or be talked into baby, until you have seen at least 1-2 years of exempleary behaviour.

<small>[ June 21, 2003, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would really like to ask him that! My bet is his answer would be something like, "you're right, so let's just get divorced then," all defeatest.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Even if you are right about that being his answer, his actions have yet to back it up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would really like to ask him that! My bet is his answer would be something like, "you're right, so let's just get divorced then," all defeatest.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not defeatist, quite manipulative, designed to make people feel sorry for him. Won't work with others like him, but it works well with givers like yourself. It is a big "hook" jen, don't bite.

<small>[ June 21, 2003, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

Looks like SNL has ressurrected again! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I just got the first inkling of this yesterday.

I don't get it, I just don't get what the game is or why.

What's this about SNL being resurrected?
SNL = sufdb or something?

What I find distressing (for your sake), is though he has revealed himself, you either try to feel responsible, or think he is really someone else. You are not in the slightest responsible for who he is (or how he behaves), and I think your affair was an attempt at escape from an intuitive realization of who he really is (a narcissistic, meanspirited, power seeker), as he has revealed to you the past year.
Yeah, I'd have to say I see your point here.

For your part, you appear to maybe have a rescuer complex, that if you just love him enough you will transform him, that is a dangerous habit to indulge in. People do not change jen, very much anyways. His behaviour (assuming you have reported it accurately) is way way beyond some hurt feelings (and excessive selfishness), and acceptable anger (things ammenable to change), you have found out who he really is, and that is who he will remain.
I'll really have to think on this perspective. I have consciously and independantly realized that people can only change themselves, and I can't change him, but I see how maybe I do have a bit of a rescuer complex. Either that, or a desire to be viewed as a nice person who tried to "do the right thing."

If he has in fact given up the bimbos, he may give you enough to regain regular sexual access to you, get you back under his dominion, mess with your head, the old push/pull co-dependent routine. YIKES that is all to plausible for me. Very much a fear at this point.

If you agree to this umpteenth one more chance, be tough, ignore his words, and judge your continued participation based on behavioiur. He should willingly follow the rules of protection, agree (and follow) intensive counselling, and meet your needs. Be sure you hold your continued participation to these standards, don't be bought off with lots of phoney promises etc. ACTIONS.
Thanks for pointing this out. It does need to be about action, not potentially empty promises. Being willing to go to counselling seems like it almost needs to be a make or break thing. Without counselling, I'm doomed to be fighting his manipulation forever, and watching him live in his depressed, self-isolating manner forever.

I have a very bad habit of being manipulated by him when I'm in his presence. I'm like putty in his hands it would seem, even after all I've learned in the past year, and that frustrates me to no end!

Part of me is afraid he put on that whole song and dance this week so that I'd stop the divorce proceedings so he could move his money or something. Really, I am back to expecting divorce. Either he says he really doesn't want to divorce, and wants to make an effort at this right away, or I want to just do the division of property and divorce, now. One reason why I am thinking Dv is more likely is he said on Thursday night something like, "It's gonna take another 3 months before I can get over this new anger again," as if to say, you're gonna have to wait 3 more months before I'm willing to try being a husband to you again.

You know what one of the wierdest things he said that night was? He said that he felt betrayed that I was not honouring the separation agreement we wrote up together, that I was "sueing" him for more. After that he also said something about "how could we be friends if you went forward with something like that?" He wants to be friends? I think not, I called him on it, I think he just wants to have continued sexual access to me, he laughed and said what, we can't keep having sex if we divorce?

Oh yes, he also made a threat. He said that if my lawyer had him served at school (work) that he wouldn't hesitate to save his reputation by telling everyone on his staff why we were divorcing (he threatened to ruin my professional reputation again).

The more I think about it this weekend, the more I go right back to not trusting his intentions at all, and thinking that he just wanted to manipulate me into "calling off the dogs", and give in to his request to stick to the "old" separation agreement.

But who knows. I'm not sure whether he really is hurt that I strayed from our original agreement and I'm asking for more $$$, or if he's hurt b/c I have the nerve to file for Dv b/c I've had enough (and he thought I'd be desperately in love with him and ready to be his easily manipulated b!@#$ forever), or if he was just manipulating me to buy himself some time, or if he was trying to manipulate me into just not going at him as hard as my lawyer was for me. OR if it's some bizarre combination of a couple or more of the above possibilities. One thing is for sure, he WAS hurting, or else I wouldn't have seen him break into tears a few times, with absolute pain in his eyes.

He played it out like my lawyer is hoping to make a couple thousand dollars off me, so that is why she's going at him so hard, not because it's what is right and fair. He tried to tell me how gullible I am for doing things her way, etc.

Cynical Jen is back, emotional and desperate Jen has left the building, for tonight anyway.

Seriously, what was all that mumbo jumbo about Looks like SNL has ressurrected again! and I just got the first inkling of this yesterday.???

Thoughts on my comments and additional info this evening anyone?

Jen

<small>[ June 22, 2003, 02:03 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Hey Jen

Just a comment here...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ... Either that, or a desire to be viewed as a nice person who tried to "do the right thing."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">By whom????

Jen you only have to be good at your eyes first! then the rest will come. And no matter what we all know already you have done many many things to try to recover the M, and if THEY don't see it so be it...

I just wanted for you to be at peace with all you did Jen...

Take care

"Cynical Jen is back, emotional and desperate Jen has left the building, for tonight anyway."

The other day I was ironing Mr. Peppers shirts (something I actually enjoy doing, can you believe it???) I always watch a movie when I iron. I watched the last 45 minutes of "The Three Faces Of Eve" starring Joanne Woodward. It was made in the 50's and the movie is too simplistic, and not very realistic in how it deals with it's subject matter (it's a good view anyway!) .... Jen, what you wrote reminded me of Eve's plight. Eve had a multiple personality disorder. (I DO NOT THINK JEN DOES) One personality, "Eve White" was shy, easily frightened, and had problems thinking for herself, was very submissive to her husband, and very unhappy. Her alternate personality was "Eve Black" who was a party girl. Flirtacious and carefree. This girl had Fun with a capital "F" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ..... In the end of the movie, a 3rd personality was discovered, Jane. Jane was a "normal" person who had a wider range of behaviors available to her. She could be fun, could be frightened, could be calm and self assured, could set boundaries without cynicism .... and, in the end, Jane survived as the main personality and "they all lived hapilly ever after" .... like movies end.

I was wondering Jen ..... is there some "medium" Jen available to you? One who can step away from unhealthy requests/demands by your husband without resorting to cynicism? Do you wish to broaden your available response options?

I used to be much more cynical. It is an exhausting state to be in .... exhausting for your mind. Cynicism takes energy to maintain , and eventually the cynicism has to be dropped, and then what?

What do you know about serenity? Is there a serene Jen inside you can call to your assistance when need be? Serene means remains calm and unruffled ..... imagine yourself calm and unruffled when faced with choices and unpleasant business. Can't you just imagine the personal power that the serene Jen experiences?

Open yourself up to a different way of being. Instead of reacting to ..... Jen chooses her level of turmoil, her level of calm. Jen balances herself.

Meditate on these words Jen.....

>>serenity

>>balance

Practice putting yourself into this serene state of mind when there is NO stressor bothering you .... and, after awhile and with practice, you'll more easily be able to place yourself in the chosen state of mind during a storm of potential emotional bad weather.

You can choose how to be Jen.

God bless.

<small>[ June 22, 2003, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Well Jen, sufdb can claim all he/she wants that they are not SNL but many of us here who have followed him in the past for the long length of time he was here are not easily fooled. He's come back once before with another screen name and was smoked out. The words, the ideas, the views are SNLs.

You cynical?! Yes, for a very long time. Although, I've heard you say you didn't use to be cynical. Being cynical is not the only symptom you have of being depressed. Why not TRY an antidepressant Jen. I think you'd be amazed at how much they help to help you see emotional situations objectively, with cynicism interjected appropriately instead of at every turn. You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...emotional and desperate Jen has left the building </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">. Sheesh you even see your positive qualities of compassion and understanding in a negative light.

I think it's quite useless to analyze anything your H says. Words matter not, it is only his actions that count. Even though he was angry, he still met with you and had a long discussion to which you said just a few days ago opened your eyes to how much he is hurting and how much you both use to be each other's world. He could have told you to take a hike. As far as the money goes, it doesn't matter if he tries to hide his money. All it takes is a subpeona to the old bank to find out how much was there before he moved it, so why fill your head with thoughts of him trying to cheat you out of something? He can't. As far as the "bimbos" go, you say his contact with them is diminishing. In light of the baby steps he's making towards you, you could chose to view that in the light that he's coming to realize that it's you he wants, not some meaningless relationship with either one of them, but you focus on a negative spin instead. Why the continual need to demonize him? Why don't we talk about just the things he does instead trying to figure out what he's thinking about doing or says he's gonna do? Negative thoughts, based on suppositions, don't accomplish anything positive.

I've noticed that you say you hear the little voice inside you speak when you have meaningful interactions with your H. It doesn't say what the masses say and you end up finding time and time again that it's your inner voice that guides you to making the most compassionate, patient decisions. I would think that despite the situation, anything that leads to the expression of positive qualities is a good thing. Then you come here and posters remind you to think of "you". The focus is on self. Honestly, I have never seen you have any difficulty taking care of yourself when it comes down to the nitty gritty. Over and over and over, poster after poster goes on about how it's been a whole YEAR that you have been waiting for your H to get it together. There's no compassionate consideration for the death of his dad, his mom's cancer, in addition to the betrayal of his wife and his best friend. Sure your H has acted like an a$$. Does that mean it's wise to minimize what he's experienced in the last year and expect him to automatically act like we'd all like him to act, and on the timeline we think he should do it in? Why is it that other BS here get to take AT LEAST 2 years to work through their WS's A, and find compassion and understanding when we act poorly in dealing with our pain, and your H has to pull it together in a year, plus deal with his dad's death and his mom's cancer? This man has more than one gaping wound and he's responded poorly, so which is better, some understanding and compassion or condemnation? Would any of us want to be condemned for all of our poor responses in life or because we couldn't find it within ourselves to respond as others thought we should, and in the time period they thought was appropriate? Posters here keep saying he's incapable of loving you in a healthy way. Boy, that's a lot to assume. Maybe he's been incapable in the last year due to all he's been through and because he has little or no appropriate coping skills, but the gaul of some people to write off the potential that exists in another human being is something else! They haven't a clue what a work God can do in your H. Not to mention that your H has a much better chances of making the much need changes he needs to make if he's exposed to the compassion, patience and understanding of a wife who is daily seeking the Lord herself. He may have been incapable for the last year but that in no way means he will remain incapable nor gives any indication of for how long.

JL (whom I highly respect)said
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yup, he hasn't done or said a thing that would suggest that he wants to work it out.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I digress, but this simply isn't true. He has "said" he wants to work it out. Yes, words mean little, if nothing. However, he then backed it up with actions, however much of a baby step it may have been. Jen had sex with him and negotiated for non sexual time together and he agreed. Not only did he agree, he took the initiative to follow through. When one wants to recover a marriage, it's prudent not to overlook the small steps one's spouse takes to start feeling comfortable having marital interactions again. He even acted appropriately after he got the letter from the lawyer, he was angry (which is appropriate by the way), but he didn't blow Jen off in some nasty manner.If folks here on MBers fail to see the positive and fail to acknowledge baby steps and stay stuck in a negative,cynical mode, no marriages would ever be rebuilt.

Jen, you are a strong grown woman , who has no problem protecting herself when you need to. However, if you keep yourself in constant protection mode by being cynical all the time and miss and fail to give due acknowledgment to the small, positive baby steps the liklihood is good that you will indeed end up divorced.

Loving Boundaries said
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Make a decision Jen, for both your sakes--are you in this 100% what it takes (not 100% what you WANT it to take) or are you 100% out of this? It takes 100% Jen, either way.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What it takes will not be easy nor will it be fast. It is likely to be long and tortuous. Most things worthwhile are. You will continue to be conflicted, and thereby in emotional turmoil until you decide. The other downside is, that until you decide, the posts here will also be divided and only serve to help move your thoughts back and forth with little ability to help you move in a forward direction. You have gathered lots and lots of information, at this point, what would be the point of remaining undecided? You deserve and need peace of mind after turmoil for so long.Making the right decision will give you just that. It's in the small, still, quiet inner voice Jen, not the voices outside you. God bless you and all the best to you.

<small>[ June 22, 2003, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: mthrrhbard ]</small>

Jen, SNL was a former screenname of the husband who, in my opinion, was a total abuser of his wife. She still posts here on MB. SNL meant, Sad'n Lonely.

Not that long ago he was posting here under the nome de plume of LurkngAbout. Much like satanic lies, he tries to dress up his arguments so they sound nice. But beware, the message he has plays on emotions and will lead to ungodly choices.

I have to admit, that he is the only person so far that I "laid out". I am a Christian and genereally speaking will accomodate divergent views. But when those view espouse decidely unChristian behavior by one who is "claiming" to be Christian, then I think it's time for righteous anger and indignation. It is time to call a "spade a spade". I did so.

I do not know if this sufdb is SNL, but beware.

mthrrhbard , very good post. I know in my case my wife would only yell at me for the 1st year after she left. Being as stubborn as I am I have always believed that God will restore my marriage. well God was talking to me and thru his word told me that it would be better for me to loose everything then to fight with my wife thru the court system. Well I gave it all to God and told him to take care of me. I fired my lawyer and went to the divorce hearings alone, saying that I would accept what ever my wife wanted. It is really funny while at the judge intervention my wife decided that she only wanted a small portion of what she asked for. She decided that she didn't want to defraud me and asked for less. Now all of a sudden she is talking to me there has been no fighting or any arguements at all. Now God is working on other parts of my life. He has been telling me that he didn't have any conditions for me to become a part of his family. But convicted me of changed needed after I was a part of the family. Why should I have conditions that need to be met by my wife before she is allowed to come home. God will make the changes as needed without my help. I am not telling Jen what she should do other than pray and seek Gods will thru his word. Yes at this time my wife is still going thru with the divorce but I can see major changes being made. Its amazing What God has done since I became willing to be defrauded and trust that he would take care of me. Smiaj

<small>[ June 22, 2003, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: SMIAJ ]</small>

Thanks for clarifying who SNL was.

Whether I have a "rescuer complex" or not, and whether or not my H can be all about actions right away, right now I just desperately want to try being with him. I want him to let me into his life and let me try to love him again, teach me how to love him again. I need to stop being so fierce about self-preservation and reach out to him I think. I would like nothing more than to go to him tonight and see if I can persuade him into letting me sleep in his arms tonight. But again, being desperate like that a) isn't attractive, b) makes it too easy for him, c) is like being a pushover, d) might annoy him....

It's odd, I had a pretty busy and fun Friday and Saturday with friends. But here I sit on a quiet Sunday alone and I long for him so much, for the peaceful and encouraging sense that our love for each other and each other's presence was all we needed to do everthing else. I still love him with all my heart, even if I've demonized him so much at every turn that I've felt afraid.

I just pray he'll give me the chance to try loving him again, and let me into his life again. Who knows, maybe he'll stick around home during our summer vacation (we're both off work after the 27th for 8 weeks), and we can try spending some time together. (But I guess that's if he can hide it from his family, sadly.) It's that remark of his that it's going to take him "a few more months or more" now to get over this new hurt (the letter from my lawyer) that worries me though. How do I respond to that??? What if he says let's just get divorced, take your $xx,xxx and go??? Do I dare to try reconciling with him if he's still adamantly opposed to any form of counselling?

I know I should try to find the answers to those questions within myself, but I feel a bit desperate and lost.

From the bottom of the yo-yo, with a strange sense of calm all the while I feel sad and lonely,

Jen

Think about it for a minute Jen, can you see how the thought of counseling might be scary to him at the moment? If anyone has lots of issues that need worked out, it's your H, and the issues are personal in addition to marital. I can see where counseling might feel overwhelming to him and he just might not be ready to go there, YET. I can see where because he's not feeling "safe" just yet, he might feel that counseling would be directed at everything HE needs to do to make the relationship better. This might even be more true if he has never experienced counseling himself or if he comes from a family that hasn't had any experience with counseling or that doesn't see much value in counseling.

I think you've got it right with just wanting to spend time with him and see where things lead. Let him see the new, wonderful you. Now is the time for him to see all the Plan A changes Jen made and how you've grown. Then no matter what happens, you shine like the star you are. Hang in there! We are here to help you in whatever way we can!

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Please be patient.

So I plan to go and show up at my H's place tonight and first ask him open-endedly what he wants. If he still says he doesn't know, he will get two choices from me:

a)decide that he wants to work on saving our M, and we set up a specific plan for how we'll do this, including things like spending regular amounts of time together, at least attempting counselling, maybe attending church again, and NOT hiding me from his family, etc.

OR

b) decide that he wants a divorce now, and so we go ahead with it.

OR

c) decide that he still wants more time to think (like another 3-6 months as he's alluded to), which for me means it's time for a divorce now, sorry (as far as I'm concerned this the same as choice b to me).

Choice d), continuing secret sexual encounters while he gets over his anger and confusion, which I'm sure is what he'd really like, is not on the table today.

In short, either he cares enough that he wants me back and wants to start making an effort NOW, or he just doesn't care enough to try any time in the near future, so we will end up divorced, end of story. Maybe he'll wake up at some point down the line, and we can try again, but I'm not living in limbo anymore.

Sure, I guess I am imposing my timeline for healing on him. I can see that BUT I can't handle any more limbo. It just increases my resentment and makes huge withdrawals from my love bank.

A simple fact is that even though I still love him, that's not enough for me to wait forever. People do get divorced from people they still love all the time, because it's the rational thing to do in order to maintain one's sanity.

So that's where I'm at today. I have a few hours before I go if anyone has any comments.

Wish me well please, or say a prayer if you can.

Jen

Wait, should I call first and see if he wants me to come over and talk? Or should I just go?

I'm afraid, in the back of my mind, of him bolting out of town when holidays start at the end of this week....I can't talk to him tomorrow (I know he's busy with work stuff)....

Am I being too pushy again? In such a way that will drive him away?

Jen