MM - No, no court papers. She was referring the emotional aspect of letting go. she has said nothing more about it since then (a little more then a month ago), I am just making an assumption based on her seemingly spending more time with OM and her not attempting phone calls as she has in the past. I did learn through her friend that the one night I assumed that she was with him, she actually sat home alone. I have not spoken to her for over a week since the daycare incident. She called last Friday and left the "I'm sure you won't call me back" remark message and I didn't. Also, don't worry about making too many points or long posts, I enjoy reading your insight.

TMCM - I am staying in plan B, a strict plan B. Plan A brought her forward to a certain point but she has been stuck there ever since. I have no other options.

NW

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by now what:
<strong>
TMCM - I am staying in plan B, a strict plan B. Plan A brought her forward to a certain point but she has been stuck there ever since. I have no other options.

NW</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good for you and don't forget you've got us here to cheer you on sans the cheerleading outfits of course <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

NW,

I was being sarcastic when I said that about the D papers. I knew she hadnt done that yet. My point was that it aint over until the fat lady sings. And that you do not know for sure what is going on with her. Added to that, you do have some very good intelligence that all is not rosy in Fogland.

Please, if you are going to make assumptions, make them based on facts and NOT her psychobabble or psycho-actions. She is not "sane" right now. Take her words and actions and filer them through what you now know about affairs and Plan B. Her reactions so far are entirely NORMAL for someone who has been acting abnormal.

You see, you want to think that your wife really knows what she is doing and what she is talking about when she is doing this. But she doesnt. She hasnt a clue! You do though. You know the statistical odds on that relationship working out. You know the dynamics of these types of relationships. You now know what it will take to have a great marriage, and what is required of you.

She understands NONE of this. So dont listen to the "abducted by aliens" person. It is like listening to a drunk talk. Who pays attention to what they say anyway? Your wife is addicted and "drunk." She has no idea what she is doing.

So, good for you! You are holding fast to Plan B. While there are no guarantees, I am willing to bet that you will report back to us with a "crack" in her world, probably within the next three weeks. But do not give in! Do not let her back in until she has met ALL conditions of PBL. If she calls and wants to talk about your relationship, point her back to PBL. If it sounds like she might want to do that, then listen to her ONLY. If she agrees to do so, then WAIT until she does. If she talks about "needing time," and having to "work things out my own way," then shove PBL back her way and recede back into the dark.

Make no mistakes here. She is going to have to surrender to you in order to come back. Unconditional surrender. The terms of that surrender are in the PBL. While she WILL try to negotiate with you...do not allow it. Listen to her proposals, point her to PBL...and back away again. She will get the message that there is only one way out of this.

All of the power is yours now. If this marriage makes it, it will be because YOU did the things to make it so. If you let her negotiate or vascilate, this may never end. Or at the very least, divorce will be in your future. Use your power of knowledge of marriage and affairs, as well as your position as her husband, to lead her back. The only way to do that is as outlined in these principles. In the PBL. And in your prayers.

In His arms.

<small>[ August 08, 2003, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

TMCM - Why won't you wear a cheerleading outfit. It would be very motivational. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

MM - I have read about the Tough Love book and had thoughts of getting it. I will certainly do it now if you feel it is worthwhile.

I received some more intel from friend who said that W has referred to me as "being an [censored]" because I am NC. she was wondering when I was moving and her friend suggested that she call and speak to me. W said that she won't bother calling because "He won't talk to me." Friend thinks that I should have minimal contact where I act upbeat, like I don't care, be very brief and end the calls after the point is made. sort of a DB 180 degree suggestion. Complete indifference. I have done that before and it drives her crazy, however right now I prefer complete NC. Friend said that complete NC is going to backfire because it is going to increase W's anger towards me. The friend does not know about this site or DB 180 degree stuff, just her suggestion.

She also said that W is concerned about my oldest daughter's upcoming birthday and that we have not spoken about it. I didn't plan to do that either. I was going to do my own thing and I don't really care what she does. W is also expressing concern about how Christmas will be too. A little early for that don't you think? Maybe it is an indication that she plans on changing nothing and OM will be around then too.

W has been asking my oldest daughter when I am moving. I have not told her and don't plan to. My oldest also told me that OM stopped at their house last night and went to the shoe store with W and my kids. That really pi$$es me off. why does she have to do that? All of the kids hate him and tell W that and she get's angry. My oldest daughter said that she just acts like she likes him because so that "Mom won't get mad at me." Friend said that w is unhappy because everyone around her, me, kids, etc.. have been hurt and are unhappy with her choices. She has a 14 yoa daughter from a previous relationship who hates him and in fact he cannot be at her house when the 14 yr old is home. she actually moved out and lived with her father for awhile and now stays with him 1/2 of the time because of OM. W cried at first does not seem to care now because she has many competely kid free nights where she and OM can $crew all night without and responsibility or cares in the world. I think that she is completely happy with all of the turmoil that she has caused as long as she gets her selfishness needs met. It's like she is a teenager again instead of a 37 year old adult. It is discouraging. I'm losing respect for her by the day.

Hey NW,

You have some great info in your latest post. Let me show you...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TMCM - Why won't you wear a cheerleading outfit. It would be very motivational.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have been wondering about Coffeeman lately. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM - I have read about the Tough Love book and had thoughts of getting it. I will certainly do it now if you feel it is worthwhile. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it will help a lot. It will give you a more in depth study of the dynamics of all of this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I received some more intel from friend who said that W has referred to me as "being an [censored]" because I am NC.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As was predicted!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">she was wondering when I was moving and her friend suggested that she call and speak to me. W said that she won't bother calling because "He won't talk to me."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, she now gets the point that calling is not going to work. This is good. She now KNOWS that she is trapped in her current situation. Might as well make the best of it. She is angry because she is in the dark. Wants to know about you moving, but cant get any info. All in all, very good info!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Friend thinks that I should have minimal contact where I act upbeat, like I don't care, be very brief and end the calls after the point is made. sort of a DB 180 degree suggestion. Complete indifference. I have done that before and it drives her crazy, however right now I prefer complete NC.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You prefer NC, but you are thinking about contact? NW, you are waffling again. Read Coffeeman's posts above. Read Dobson's book. She has no respect for you. And she will continue to have no respect for you if you back down from NC. You said NC...then make it NC. Yo usay below your friend hasnt been on these websites or read this stuff. EXACTLY! How about staying with the experts. The friend can provide info...that's okay. But dont let her talk you into a plan of action. She doesnt know. She is as influenced by your wife's supposed saneness that she has no idea that she is being played also. Stay the course!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Friend said that complete NC is going to backfire because it is going to increase W's anger towards me. The friend does not know about this site or DB 180 degree stuff, just her suggestion.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, read what I just wrote. It will backfire if you BACKDOWN. Her anger IS going to increase. I think everyone here has told you that. Read what I posted about my wife above. But it is that anger that will drive her to try to make something happen with the OM. And she will doubling her effort into something that is destined to fail. Stop thinking that your wife is any different than the others here. The dynamics are the same. Stay the course! Stay dark!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She also said that W is concerned about my oldest daughter's upcoming birthday and that we have not spoken about it. I didn't plan to do that either. I was going to do my own thing and I don't really care what she does.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly. This is the right attitude. I did the same with Christmas and our youngest son's birthday in December. She could do it by herself. Keep this up. It will be a dose of reality for her on what her choices are doing and where they are taking her. She may think in her fog-bound mind that everything is goign to be rosy and you two will befriends and everyone will be one big nice happy family, with the OM included. Time for her to see what the future really holds. Plan B is all about that. A dose of reality!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">W is also expressing concern about how Christmas will be too. A little early for that don't you think? Maybe it is an indication that she plans on changing nothing and OM will be around then too.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, go look at what happened when I went to Plan B before Christmas and what she did about Christmas. She had bought her own presents even and had wrapped them. I had come by to drop something off at her apartent related to the kids. She asked me to come in to see what she had gotten. I told her again that we werent doing Christmas together. She reacted VERY angrily and slammed the door in my face. She wanted us to all spend it together (without the OM of course) for the SAKE OF THE KIDS. But the kids were better off with reality also. And the lack of tension. And she got the dose of reality that she sorely needed. OM was woefully inept at meeting those family needs.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">W has been asking my oldest daughter when I am moving. I have not told her and don't plan to. My oldest also told me that OM stopped at their house last night and went to the shoe store with W and my kids. That really pi$$es me off. why does she have to do that?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dont worry. I know it pisses you off, as it did me. But his time is short. And it will be her bringing them around a guy that is an adulterer and will be gone in very short order. And she will have to look those kids in the face once it is done and over and explain her inappropriate and immoral behavior.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All of the kids hate him and tell W that and she get's angry.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dont you just love your kids!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> My daughter said to me during this that she didnt want my wife talking about OM with her (my wife during the final Plan B started playing up the OM). I told her that if she was uncomfortable with what Mom was saying, tell her so and that she didnt want to hear it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My oldest daughter said that she just acts like she likes him because so that "Mom won't get mad at me."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Believe me, your wife KNOWS how your daughter feels.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Friend said that w is unhappy because everyone around her, me, kids, etc.. have been hurt and are unhappy with her choices.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See? She knows!! HHmmmm...everyone is unhappy with her choices? I guess everyone must be wrong, and she is right (sarcastic). This is good NW. This is part of what will eat at her until the pain gets so bad, she will walk out of the Fog. She is alone in there with a guy she is realizing is not what she thought. And EVERYONE else that she loves and loves her thinks she is crazy and lost her mind. This WILL get to her. You just stay out of the way. Let her focus turn back to herself, and away from you. Then she will see what everyone else sees.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She has a 14 yoa daughter from a previous relationship who hates him and in fact he cannot be at her house when the 14 yr old is home.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Awesome!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">she actually moved out and lived with her father for awhile and now stays with him 1/2 of the time because of OM.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good girl!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">W cried at first does not seem to care now because she has many competely kid free nights where she and OM can $crew all night without and responsibility or cares in the world.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Appears that way doesnt it? Exactly what she WANTS. Problem is...she cant make this happen this way. Something will give soon!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that she is completely happy with all of the turmoil that she has caused as long as she gets her selfishness needs met. It's like she is a teenager again instead of a 37 year old adult. It is discouraging. I'm losing respect for her by the day. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Happy? No. She is angry. But right now that anger is focused at you. Let her focus it where it belongs...at herself. So stay out of the way, will you? The teenager thing made me laugh. Why? Because a mutual friend, who was introduced to OM last summer, watched my wife around him. Know what this friend said? She said that my wife was acting like a "16 year old in heat." NW, these arent very responsible adults right now. They ARE acting like teenagers...very, very selfish. But she cant live like an 18 year old forever. Reality has a way to bring her back to Earth again...into the real world.

NW, stay the course. Stay dark. Listen, watch. Then post here. Try to do what we are doing here...disect what she says and does to find the truth. Believe me...things are not great in Fogland right now. The OM has a very angry woman on his hands right now.

Stay dark!

In His arms.

<small>[ August 09, 2003, 09:35 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by now what:
<strong> I'm losing respect for her by the day.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now what:

The above quote by you is a reason for having NO contact. But I believe you are having a "form" of "contact" by using others to scope out, or do surveillance for you.

While it does give you some measure of intel, for tips on how life is in "Fogland" - I also believe it isn't necessarily a good thing for you to know all this stuff.

Plan B is to preserve what love you have left for WW. I DO NOT believe it is good for your LB$ for you to know all that could be known.

I certainly don't know.........is just my .02.

I guess I'm saying, beware of letting friends tell you too much about the sitch. You are in Plan B. You are OUT OF IT. There are many reasons for that. Preserving your love for WW. Preserving your own sanity. Taking you out of the daily "drama" and ups and downs of all this. Having to see WW act like a foolish teen-ager........

Let her be in her "FOGLAND." Take care of YOU right now! God Bless,

NW lupolady brings forth an excellent point and I hope you take her advice.

I would also like to recommend that you consider getting away ,every so often, from everything that reminds you about the A including this forum. This is a great place for support and a lifeline for those that are emotionally overwhelmed but it can also help keep you in an emotional rut if you are exposed to it very often. So please consider taking a few days off to charge up your emotional batteries.

I took TMCM's advice and stayed away from here for a little while. My W has contacted twice since my last posts and I wanted to give some updates.

I moved this past weekend and had my children with me. As expected, she called me Monday afternoon, after the time she would have the kids, and left a voice mail telling me that she needed to talk to me, it was really importatnt and that she would appreciate me calling her. I didn't, and did not plan to however I learned several hours later that her grandmother had died the day before. The calling hours were during her time to have the kids and I figured she needed me to watch them. I figured this was an occassion to bend the plan B rules and I called her, offered my condolences and offered to take the kids during calling hours if that is what she needed. She said "No, you have made it clear to me that you will not be there for me etc..." I told her that this was a special circumstance, she basically repeated the same thing and I said ok and said that I would be endeding the call. She then complained that I always refuse to talk to her when things are difficult and I asked what she wanted. Basically in a nutshell she told me that she has not spoken to me in 2 weeks, enjoys talking to me, and that by not talking to her I am pushing her further away from me etc... I asked her if she was going to continue seeing OM and she said that she doesn't know what she is going to do. I told her that as long as he is around, there is no NW in her life. She told me that I am giving her an ultimatum, that she doesn't like them and ususally if someone gives her an ultimatum that person does not get what they want. I told her that it was not an ultimatum but a result of the choices she is making. She said that there is part of her that wants to try with me but that she does not feel that it will work "right now" and she is trying to figure a lot of things out. She said that she misses our children when they are not with her and that she would like to talk with thm when I have them and that I am punishing her and trying to make things difficult for her. I explained that was not the case and basically the call ended.

Two days later her friend called me and said that she had heard through W's brother that she had broke it off with OM and that he was really angry. She has been unable to get a hold of W and had no further details.

Yeasterday I saw her and OM in his car together. She looked right at me and I looked right at her. I called her answering machine immediately and told her to re-read the PBL because that is the way it is going to be. A little while later she called my cell phone but did not leave a message.
She then shows up at my door shortly after I arrived hom from work wanting to talk. She has tears in her eyes and said, "Will you please talk to me." I agreed, and she began to tell me that she has a lot going on in her life, that she is very confused and oesn't know what she is going to do. She said that she felt teriible about me seeing her with OM, cares about me and does not want to hurt me. She said that she got into a big fight with OM and ALMOST broke up with him the night before and that she was on her way to lunch with him to talk about things when I saw her. She she does not know what she is going to do and is trying to figure out if she is going to continue to see OM. She said that he may be gone next week or he may not. I told her as long as there is OM, I will not be there, that we will have no relationship whatsoever and she brought up the ultimatum thing again and how I have to do everything my way. I addressed that and she then went into saying that since she has strayed, that is baggage that will make it difficult to reconcile our relationship. She said that it would be easier to start fresh with someone new. She said that she does not want to spend the rest of her life having me throw it up in her face. I told her that I have forgiveness and that doing that will accomplish nothing positive for either one of us. It went back and forth and I finally I reminded her of PBL and asked her to leave. She said that she needs me in her life but if this is what I need to do then she has no choice. She walked away and I told her to take care of herself and that I wished her well. She said, "Yeah right" and drove away.

Unfortunately, I'm becoming experienced with this crap.

Your WW is playing games with you in my opinion. I've been there, done that. She is definitely continuing to want her cake and eat it too. She wants you and him. I wouldn't buy that stuff about breaking it off with him. She is using guilt trips and threats to try to get you to bend from your PLAN B. She is the one who is making ultimatums.

Remember the A is like a drug addiction. Any time she has contact, like riding with him in the car, she is under the influence again.

I have learned from my WS that he did not make a turn around until he felt that he was definitely losing me. The key was me putting the house on the market and then even selling it. She needs to feel that you may be gone, not that you are there waiting for her. That's her game to stay in the A, not to get out of it. She is wanting you to enable her.

I can't believe that I am saying this since a couple of months ago folks were saying this to me and I didn't buy it. Try to stick to your guns. You did great.

REMEMBER. STAY DARK!!!!

I found it helpful to write another clarifying PLAN B letter. My WS has continued to refer back to the letters. In their fog confusion (which she admits to), they might need concrete reminders of what they need to do.

I think it may take a bit more time but she is getting there. You are gaining more and more control of yourself and the situation.

NW I'm almost certain that there will be another talk with your WW in the near future, although there shouldn't be because you're in Plan B. If and when that next talk occurs, consider conveying to her the following:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wife every day that you continue having contact with the OM, is one more day that more of my love for you DIES. Eventually all of my love for you will die and I will no longer have any desire to remain married to you. That is NOT an ultimatum but a statement of FACT. These 'talks' do nothing but speed up that loss of love. Please DO NOT contact me again</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hopefully that will get the message across in her mind as to the importance of her observing and respecting your Plan B no contact.

NW-

What can you tell ME about this interaction?

Stay Dark.

It's working......

Kily,

What do you mean, E-mail?

NW

NW,

I wanted to sound off with "THIS IS GREAT!" I see the beginning of the end for this for you. While I always hear Coffeeman in my head, cautioning that just because the A ends doesnt mean you two will get it together, the odds are still in your favor. Especially since you are sticking to your guns.

Mimi & Coffeeman were absolutely right above. Go back and re-read what happened to me this past January with my wife, and what she was saying. It is EXACTLY what is happening to your wife. MM Plan B

I want to get to your post and disect it because there is some very good news in it. You are close, my man. Very close. But you may need to go to Mimi's thread and read about what I call the Transition period...that point where your wife is making the jump away from the OM, where you need to show her that she has a place to land. But first, let me address the latest intel...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I moved this past weekend and had my children with me. As expected, she called me Monday afternoon, after the time she would have the kids, and left a voice mail telling me that she needed to talk to me, it was really importatnt and that she would appreciate me calling her. I didn't, and did not plan to however I learned several hours later that her grandmother had died the day before. The calling hours were during her time to have the kids and I figured she needed me to watch them. I figured this was an occassion to bend the plan B rules and I called her, offered my condolences and offered to take the kids during calling hours if that is what she needed.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You handled this VERY well. As my Plan B letter stated, the only talk would be concerning the kids, or emergencies. The death of her grandmother would constitute an emergency. So, good for you and the way you handled it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She said "No, you have made it clear to me that you will not be there for me etc..." I told her that this was a special circumstance, she basically repeated the same thing and I said ok and said that I would be endeding the call. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have learned well...grasshopper! This was EXACTLY what you should have done!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She then complained that I always refuse to talk to her when things are difficult and I asked what she wanted. Basically in a nutshell she told me that she has not spoken to me in 2 weeks, enjoys talking to me, and that by not talking to her I am pushing her further away from me etc...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NW, if this statement by her alone doesnt show you and convince you that the MB system works, then I dont know what will. She STILL loves you. She has never stopped loving you, no matter how she has tried. She still wants her cake, but I feel that you are headed toward the transition period...where she is ending things with the OM, but will want to negotiate her terms of surrender, and make her laning a lot softer. There will come a time will you will have to show her more than the PBL...that she will need an example that shows her that you mean what you say. But she isnt QUITE there. But, in my opinion, she is very close.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I asked her if she was going to continue seeing OM and she said that she doesn't know what she is going to do.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A GREAT response again, NW. You hit another single. And her response is EXACTLY what should be expected, because she DOESNT know. She has gotten herself into a mess and isnt quite sure how to get out of it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I told her that as long as he is around, there is no NW in her life.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A triple for NW. He has now put himself into scoring position. Nice job!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She told me that I am giving her an ultimatum, that she doesn't like them and ususally if someone gives her an ultimatum that person does not get what they want.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Blah, blah...psychobabble. Fogese Dictionary defines this statement as "Ultimatum: a word used by WSs to define BS actually having a backbone. Used in statements by WSs in order to deflect attention from the fact that they are still carrying on an affair."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I told her that it was not an ultimatum but a result of the choices she is making.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NW is three for three. You are doing so well!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She said that there is part of her that wants to try with me but that she does not feel that it will work "right now" and she is trying to figure a lot of things out.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">EXACTLY what my wife said. She is reading from the SCRIPT. Fogese Dictionary defines this statement as "I have realized that the OM is not what I thought he was (end of the fantasy) and now I am afraid of living with the consequences of my actions."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She said that she misses our children when they are not with her and that she would like to talk with them when I have them and that I am punishing her and trying to make things difficult for her. I explained that was not the case and basically the call ended. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, those kids are a HUGe help in your Plan B. Steve Harley even told me that my biggest asset in this was my kids. Look, NW...she loves you, and those kids, and her family. She is now trying to find her way home. Dont scare her away now. Let HER do it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Two days later her friend called me and said that she had heard through W's brother that she had broke it off with OM and that he was really angry. She has been unable to get a hold of W and had no further details.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, well, well. The clock is ticking on the OM. He hasn't much time left. In the meantime, your wife misses YOU and wants to talk to YOU!! The OM is losing now…AND HE KNOWS IT! Hang tough, NW. Stick to your guns. The OM is about to LB BIG TIME! And he has just about had enough trying to establish a relationship with a woman who is married and still loves her husband. He is going to LB like crazy over the next few weeks. Your wife is going to be living a hell on Earth. OM will turn from a prince to a frog overnight, and she will have no NW to be there for her. She will be confused and in pain. But right there with her will be your PBL, as you have so adequately continued to point her to. She knows the way out. The pain level is just going to have to rise a little higher before she can do something about it!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yesterday I saw her and OM in his car together. She looked right at me and I looked right at her. I called her answering machine immediately and told her to re-read the PBL because that is the way it is going to be. A little while later she called my cell phone but did not leave a message. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This almost exact thing happened during our "transition" period. Read my thread I listed above, and what happened when I came by her apartment and found the OM there. And how she reacted afterwards. EXACTLY like your wife has.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She then shows up at my door shortly after I arrived home from work wanting to talk. She has tears in her eyes and said, "Will you please talk to me." I agreed, and she began to tell me that she has a lot going on in her life, that she is very confused and doesn't know what she is going to do. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly what my wife did.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She said that she felt terrible about me seeing her with OM, cares about me and ALMOST broke up with him the night before and that she was on her way to lunch with him to talk about things when I saw her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is all probably true, NW. Every word of it. But until she has actions to back it up, then she is still on the fence. She is NOW ready to get off, and that is a good sign. But the reason she is ready to get of is because you have Plan Bed her. And you must continue until she actually does jump off that fence.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She does not know what she is going to do and is trying to figure out if she is going to continue to see OM. She said that he may be gone next week or he may not. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NW…he is gone. The writing is on the wall now. The fantasy is over. And theirs was never a REAL relationship. So now that it must be a real relationship, they are running for cover. He is gone…count on it!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I told her as long as there is OM, I will not be there, that we will have no relationship whatsoever and she brought up the ultimatum thing again and how I have to do everything my way.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A HOMERUN by NW!! You could have broke down and engaged her in this conversation. You COULD have pleaded with her to end things, that all she has to do is do that and you will be there. You could have offered to shut down Plan B and help her get through getting rid of the OM. But you didn't, and thus…you put the ball into the upper deck! She tells you OM is about gone, that she cares for you, etc. And your response has been the same "Lay down your arms, put your hands in the air and surrender." If she didn't know before this moment, she now knows that you are serious…and that she is alone in this until OM is gone. EXCELLENT job NW!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I addressed that and she then went into saying that since she has strayed, that is baggage that will make it difficult to reconcile our relationship. She said that it would be easier to start fresh with someone new. She said that she does not want to spend the rest of her life having me throw it up in her face. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fogese again. My wife said the same things. They really cannot understand how we could still love them and how we could forgive them. They feel that they couldn't do the same, and thuse that we wont be able to either. It will be a leap of faith to trust you NW. That is why Plan B works. It pushes them into a corner, where they really have no choice but to trust you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I told her that I have forgiveness and that doing that will accomplish nothing positive for either one of us.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It went back and forth and I finally I reminded her of PBL and asked her to leave.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very good!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She said that she needs me in her life</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is the true statement in this sentence.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">but if this is what I need to do then she has no choice.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And this is psychobabble. She cant understand why you wont be manipulated, why she has to do the hard work…why you wont negotiate the end of OM. Ignore this, NW.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She walked away and I told her to take care of herself and that I wished her well. She said, "Yeah right" and drove away.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NW, you did GREAT!! She walked away from that engagement with a lot of respect for you. You stood your ground. You stayed on message. She has also walked away from this and back into the hell that she has created with the OM. As they continue to fight, she will remember the calm NW, confident NW. she will want to reach out and talk to you again, to have you take away her pain. But as Coffeeman put it, you need to keep the door closed. Coffeeman stated exactly what you need to say.

Look, you broke NC in order for your WW to feel you out. You have shown her that you are still there, but that you will not be there for her until OM is history. By next using the statement that Coffeeman gave you, you will seal her fate by telling her that it is the loss of your love for her that you are protecting.

She will take away from all that has happened here, that she has a husband who loves her, who is willing to try with her if this OM is gone. And now he tells her that he is losing his love for her and that it may be gone soon. Panic will now reign in her house. As the OM continues to LB, she will begin the process to get rid of him because she is afraid that her time has almost run out with you.

You are doing great NW!! Re-read my thread there and see how mine went. Almost exactly like yours. So, take your time and do this right. You are here now because you followed the plan. You have had a whole bunch of doubles and triples, with even a homerun. But remember, a baseball game is not a couple of hits. It is nine innings…and you have to play ALL nine. Stick to the gameplan…it is working!

In His arms.

<small>[ August 15, 2003, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

The Master Mortarman has spoken.

Listen! Listen! Listen!

My WS is almost begging me to help him get out of the hell he has created in his life. I've realized that I have to let him feel the pain of what he has created. It's about gaining the WS' respect. That has been one of the greatest values of PLAN B.

Hang in There, Now What! Hopefully, we are almost there.

I also forgot one remark that she made during the conversation at my house. I commented that she must be happy with her choices because she is continuing them and she replied, "I'm not happy." "How can I be happy when I cry more now then before I left?"

Her friend called me today and didn't have more then a couple of minutes to talk. She said that she had a lot to tell me but told me to keep letting W know that I love her. W told her how she had gone over and talked with me.

She did tell me one thing that W said yesterday or this morning which was she never realized how deeply I love her. We live in an area of the country that had the blackout last night and that she told her friend that she should have been with me and the girls last night, drinking wine (w/me,not the kids <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) throught that and not somewhere else. I don't know but I think that she was home last night but anyway time will tell.

NW,

That is all more great news. Look at what you wrote. She is seeing it...she is feeling it. Of course she isnt happy. Wasnt this predicted? Would a person who is happy with their life seek out their spouse as much as she is with you? Look, look, look. All the evidence is there, NW.

That friend of your wife's said some very key things here. Remember, your wife is telling you a lot of doom and gloom. That you dont really love her, or you would not NC her. Tha tshe will probably have to find someone else if things dont work out with the OM. Blah, blah, blah.

But she tells her friend that you DO love her. That you do show signs of change. She keeps trying to contact you, and says things like she needs you.

This is just about over, NW. That blackout is only adding to the nails being put into the coffin of her affair. Let it ride, like I said above. She is close. She KNOWS you love her. You now KNOW that she still loves you. But you cant help her out of this now. You are going to have to let her finish the OM off.

Steady as she goes, NW. It wont be long now.

In His arms.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
<strong>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wife every day that you continue having contact with the OM, is one more day that more of my love for you DIES. Eventually all of my love for you will die and I will no longer have any desire to remain married to you. That is NOT an ultimatum but a statement of FACT. These 'talks' do nothing but speed up that loss of love. Please DO NOT contact me again</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hopefully that will get the message across in her mind as to the importance of her observing and respecting your Plan B no contact.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NW, I think you did a VERY GOOD job staying on message with your W. She is acting like a typical cake eating WS when a piece of their cake is denied. She needs you to be there for her while she carries on with the OM. However, your absence shows her very CLEARLY that the OM cannot meet her needs. As long as you keep this up, she will fully comprehend that truth and will have motivation, despite her silly threats and ultimatums, to come back. If you resume contact, she will have no motivation.

I REALLY like TMCM's suggestion. I think his words would be a real eye opener to her. I think she is RIPE to hear this message right now when she is lost and hurt.

This is such GREAT NEWS!! You're doing GREAT!

I know we couldn't convince you to trust that this wouldn't push her further away, but TRUST US! It turns the pursued into the pursuing.

Understand a couple of things, however. I know that 'friend' seems to have your best interests in mind...but it would be best for you and your situation if you broke contact with friend as well. Your wife may have a pretty good idea you are communicating and may try to utilize the situation. Plus, friends are not unbiased or often experienced. They are usually very opinionated.

See, by keeping this contact...you are not allowing yourself space to heal from this situation. With the space comes peace...IT TAKES A LITTLE WHILE, but it does come. That peace is one more tool for winning your marriage back. Without it you may be suseptable to more LBs when the roller coaster shifts the other way for a while. Will you please trust us on this one too? You need to back away and let what will happen, happen. You can't control the situation no matter what sources you use and how hard you try. Let it go and let it happen.

It sounds very promising!!

W called twice this weekend, once on Saturday and once on Sunday. My cell phone voice mails took the messages.

She spoke of events regarding the children that are coming up in 2 or 3 weeks, nothing pressing as well as some things that I had already addressed with her at least once, some more then once including the recent in person talk. She told me to respond however I needed to, writing a letter or whatever. She also ended each call with "Have a nice weekend." This was her weekend with the kids.

She seems to have decided that she is going to remain with OM and go along with NC. Maybe I am reading too much into it but she is speaking of future events as if nothing is going to change and accepting NC which means staying with OM.

NW, use this time to practice patience. Don't assume, it doesn't get you anywhere. She's accepted that this is your choice, and now she's going to have some reality as she lives without you and wonders what YOU'RE thinking and what YOU'RE doing. Really, try to occupy your mind with other things. Are there any new hobbies you've always wanted to try, or something you quit doing that you'd like to do again??

I was gone for a year, NW...no one was more surprised than my H that I still had feelings for him and backed out of the DV at the last possible moment. It can happen...give it TIME and SPACE! TRUST US!