I like it. It does sound positive.

I can't think of a smart remark, can I do dumb ones instead?

SS

2L; you got it wrong. It's not:
"The best revenge is 2 live well"

it's
“The greatest gift you can give those you love is the example of your own life working.”

PS for Pepperoni: it's not the "large" emails that bounce to me, it's the ones with the email address mis-spelled! LOL!!! (2L has no limit to his email size!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
Oh, and how come you never respond to my polite email bounce notifications, huh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Spacecase,
I think he was quoting me, and i was quoting someone else, but you said it best.

SS

i don't pop in often (can't deal with all the 2s, they make my head spin)... but I will say, I think that ol' 2Long is kinda sensing and dealing with his W in his own way. I also think that all of us at MB have to respect that we each all involved in unique triangles, unique M's all with their own history and implications. Thus my reaction for example to Nick 123 might be completely different than 2Long.

I don't know if I would even address the e-mail at this time. Firstly it sounds like your W may be reconnecting to u and cooling the A anyway. Why stir up the pot with a confrontation? After all it isn't like this is new information. She's said all this stuff before. And it's not as if she promised NC and you discovered something new.

I think you should focus on that connectedness, let her have her e-mails with RM for the moment. As long as they stay just e-mails who cares. Focus on what is going on between you and her. Take the view that she is with you, not him. He is free and she has not joined him. So if she is treating you nicely, I wouldn't disrupt things. However, if she is mean and abusive to you then I would bring it up.

I think for your W, this A is pretty much of a habit but I think it will have to wane eventually when they realize that despite their freedom they are not together.

So my advice is to ignore for the moment. And if things go well, months down the road you turn to her and say- you seem happy, are u really feeling this or are u still feeling like a slave to marriage?

I know, pepper, mrs. 2long's behavior is vile but I think in this case, the 2longs have a big investment in each other and the rules are a little different for them. I think perhaps mrs. 2L just wants to spew or vent to RM- maybe it's just a lot of wind- her fiction so to speak. perhaps Mr. 2L's reaction just fires her up- like when you tell a kid you can't do something- they want to do it just to show you.

the reality is that she is at home being Mrs. 2L. She has had ample opportunity to leave but hasn't.

just my thoughts.

I MIS-spelled qwfqw ... ummmm qfkwq ...... um quququ .... oh hell .... it's HIS fault for picking out such a combination of unlikely letters that my brain can't hold on to!

Email me anytime SC ..... I will respond to you.

Pep

First off, grammar check:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I want you to be happy. But if you feel trapped by being married to me, then lets take away the pain.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Either add a comma after the word "happy" and make it one complete sentence, or, remove the word "But" from the next sentence. Sorry, I am such a stickler for proper grammar and structure.

Okay, onward:

I kind of like what espoir had to say in here. You truly are walking a fine line. Mrs. 2L has never promised you NC w/RM so perhaps confrontation about the e-mails or "outing" her on them may prove to be a more negative setback than a progressive positive step. I think her communiqués with RM are locked into a certain pattern that they have established over the years with each other and that may be hard to break; the “habit” espoir was referring to. In my mind, if Mrs. 2L is really starting to transform in her mind and is truly getting closer to you and the family once again, she will in due time begin to tire of the same unending banter between herself and RM. She will begin to see it as being stuck in a rut with him with no chance of a real change in sight. If she really is becoming healthier about the M and about you, then the continuing contact with RM in the same context that it has always seemed to take will become irritating to her. (Best-case scenario)

I still like the idea of you sending her an e-mail expressing yourself to her, but perhaps it should more of an inquisitive and probing type of letter. Naturally, you have the added advantage of being armed with what you have read between them, so use that information in crafting your letter by addressing specific concerns or questions on how she is feeling lately. You know, it could be like, “I’ve noticed some real positive things happening between us lately, blah, blah, blah, and I just wanted to check in with you to see if what I am perceiving from you is valid or if you are just cruising along in the marriage on auto-pilot.” or something to that affect. You aptly state that you no longer want to just assume things about her or about the marriage, so your letter’s purpose is well founded.

Basically, your entire letter is good (despite the grammar faux pas I noted earlier). It addresses all the issues that have come forth in your conversations with each other and is seeking clarification and/or resolution on them. You even offer to help her alleviate the pain of suffering in a marriage that she never wanted to begin with. Impressive indeed, but will she take you at your word on that or try to double-guess you, look for the hidden agenda in it? I think if she sees that you are hopeful that you and her are truly working together in making the marriage work, and that you just want to confirm that your perceptions and feelings are founded in truth and reality, there can be no harm in that. With you coming from a sincere, caring, and loving place just wanting for her happiness, how can she take offense to that? Maybe you need to rethink the disclosure of the e-mails and just address the emotional issues at hand between you two. I really think that espoir has a valid point to consider here. What do you think?

<small>[ July 03, 2003, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Blind Sided ]</small>

Ha-Ha <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Blind .... FYI, 2Long's W has dyslexia ... any spelling or punctuation errors will not likely bother her!

You are so great.

I read aloud your previous wonderful post to Mr. Pepper last night. We were involved in a lengthy discussion about boundaries, personal growth, and the pain we experience as we miss our WS (wayward son) who is living in a residential treatment facility for the next year in Utah.

I mention this because we never fully know how far our thought expressed here for anyone to read will fly and be planted and sprout a seedling of awareness.

Really cool.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

PS .... most of my spelling errors are due to me having to wait for my new glasses to be made, my eyes rejected the first pair.

<small>[ July 03, 2003, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Hi kids!!!

Boy, I love all the responses that have come in 2day. Almost especially espoir's, because I've missed your insight for 2long now. I apologize for the numbers in my writing, but it's become something of a "genetic imperative" (Devo, personal miscommunication) with me 2 do so. I could login as Qfwfq, I suppose, as that facet of my persona doesn't misspell the word "2." I mean, "2"... Heck, I can't do it!

But I need 2 give my latest update. "Total heaviousity" occurred last night! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> :

I feel pretty good this morning, though there are certainly a lot of things that are unsettled, still, because my W and I had a long talk last night about this, about the marital prostitution, about us, about what we want and what we think we need 2 do (which is 2 mainly NOT worry about the far fu2re, or even much in2 the fu2re, but deal with our relationship NOW).

But the convo started off pretty badly, or seemed 2. We were chatting about our day. My W about how weird a day it was for her, and me initially not talking about how weird my day was for me - I only told her about the good stuff work-wise that I was doing. But the talk swung around 2 RM and the stuff he was supposed 2 ship. Seems what happened this time was that he got the suite number wrong. I made some judgemental remark about that. I think I said "I have a hard time believing that he can't remember the address." She also brought up the idea of her taking her mom with her 2 pick everything up in person if it doesn't show up in the next week or so, saying "I'm mad at the world that I have 2 do that." I reminded her that it was her idea, and that I simply told her that I thank her for considering my feelings about it. I misinterpreted her reaction 2 that in a negative way, but I don't remember what it was exactly. I said a 2ple of other things that I can't recall that were unfair, 2. And she reacted in a way that felt 2 me like she was taking a strong defensive position FOR RM, and left 2 go sit outside for about a half hour. (it 2rns out later, that she wasn't, that she's just frustrated that she can't finish her project until his boxes and reports are re2rned, and that the suite number mistake was because he pays someone 2 take the boxes 2 the shipper, and that person made the mistake). None of the RM-related stuff matters 2 me, and I told her so, because I can't do anything about his actions, whether their intentionally hurtful or just accidental.

Anyway, I did the dishes 2 distract myself from my damned ego running all over the place, then went down 2 the garage and finally cleaned up a broken light fix2re that's been left un-dealt-with for almost a month now , and my cell phone rang. Not a big deal, just my MIL telling me and my W that her stolen credit card had been used but the bank would put a hold on it and get the supermarket 2 pay her back for accepting the card from the thief without an ID. (just another annoyance!). My W heard me talking on the phone as she walked back 2ward the house, and so I let her talk 2 her mom. After i was done cleaning up, I still felt foggy and hurt, so I went and sat in the yard, watching the light fade over downtown. That was so relaxing and so purdy that it sparked a light in my head, no my heart, and I said 2 myself "this is ridiculous. I can keep this non-communication up and live miserably, or I can put my great plan 2 be radically honest with my W in2 action and maybe really get somewhere." So I went back upstairs.

I would say "you have no idea how hard it was for me 2 be radically honest with her", but I know that you have a thorough idea just how hard it is!! . Nevertheless, it wasn't easy 2 "break the ice" but I did. And when I did, the rest was "simple". Not "easy" and not very comfortable, but definitely simple. We talked about a lot of stuff, obviously including the RM-issue. But what was most significant 2 me was that we had a good talk about basically everything I said in the "draft." And though I didn't specifically tell her I'd read her emails, I did talk about the issues in them, particularly by alluding 2 the phonecall from [vacation home] about me being this "mole" of RM's. So, it all came up and was discussed. I was absolutely delighted, most of all, 2 bounce my thoughts about the "marital prosti2tion" off her. In a nutshell, I told her my concerns about my role in creating that viewpoint as I said in the draft:

"Perhaps more importantly, I realize that my own behavior over the years, the withdrawal, my negative, hurtful reactions when I felt attacked, while still enjoying the physical intimacy we share, must have contributed 2 your view of marriage as prosti2tion. I truly would like 2 better understand why you feel this way. I would like 2 address those things in my behavior that I have control over that contributed 2 this view, so that I can 2rn them in2 something positive."

It IS more important. In fact, it's probably the most important "realization" on my part regarding our whole M and it's decline over the past 13 years or so. And I realize, 2, that many of you've all been telling me this over and over and over and over for a very long time now. No excuses, because I can't formulate any and it would hurt my haid 2 try anyway. Anyhow, the best part about telling her this was that she responded with "That is exactly why I felt like M is prosti2tion". Simple, but not easy. It was sure easy 2 get in2 that mess all those years ago, and easier 2 "stay" in the mess through withdrawal and rationalization than 2 get out of it. And I explained that 2 her 2.

Also important, she acknowledged the improvements I've made over the past several months. Certainly nothing that would be visible from the outside perspective (especially her own victim perspective). [clarification edit: I left out the fact that I don't believe that the previous months back 2 D-day were all that effective, even though many times during that period, I thought they were]

We talked more about the RM issue as well. She does consider it just a friendship, and when I can separate myself from the hurt I feel around her desire 2 be friends with him, I can acknowledge the viewpoint that, because he's her friend, she feels that it should be okay for her 2 talk 2 him about her thoughts on M, even OUR M. And although, here at MB, I have many times sided with the "no opposite-sex friends" viewpoint, I can't do so 2 such an extreme extent anymore, and still be able 2 deal with it effectively in my own M. In my own life, it's orders of magnitude harder 2 detach from the "need" 2 have NC, and even harder 2 accept my W's perceived need 2 retain the friendship, but it is no less necessary, even imperative, that I become able 2 do so. Only then can the "RM issue" lose power over me. ...in not so many words, I told my W that last night, 2.

During the convo, I again told her how much I truly love her, and she said she really does love me 2. We 2th said it and meant it in a way that was clear 2 the other.

I went 2 sleep thinking silly thoughts like "oh boy, 2morrow I'm going 2 start posting 2 the recovery board on MB!"). This morning, though, my W said she didn't sleep well, and she seems pretty depressed and "beat up" about all of this. So we talked some more, but we 2th had a lot 2 get 2 2day, so it wasn't as in-depth. I did my best 2 reassure her that I know we'll have more ups and downs, but that I am committed 2 loving her and being honest with her. Not just once every other month or so, because she's tired of the "huge fights." And even though I don't think we fight that "hugely", it is her viewpoint, and I acknowledge that. I told her that I will work on being honest with her about my feelings daily, so that neither of us gets 2 deep in2 the "assumption world" 2 where there's nothing but infrequent heated arguments 2 pull us out (and that have 2 be subsequently recovered from or, worse, resented).

Oh, and another thing about the RM-issue: I told her that I don't believe that there are any innocents, guilties, injured parties, or any deliberate efforts 2 harm others here. At the same time, I cannot and should not try 2 contain the hurt that I feel whenever she and RM have contact, though I do need 2 work on ending my fears surrounding the issue - 2 empower ME, not "it." And she said that part of her difficulty telling me about the contact is that she is so afraid I'll react negatively 2 the news, because I "always do." So, I recognize the effort she is making 2 inform me, and she recognizes the effort I'm making not 2 go crazy when she does.

I kept thinking a lot about what Blind Sided said 2 me, and that helped me 2 remain as focused as I've ever been able 2 during one of our "discussions." It truly is a wonderful way 2 live, loving without conditions and living in the NOW. I'm not that good at any of it yet, but a whole ton better than I ever have been in my entire life. Again, it's sad that we all don't take courses in this stuff growing up, before trauma hits us in one form or another.

Love 2 all, but especially 2 my W! ♥

-ol' 2long

<small>[ July 03, 2003, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

2Long,

As I read your entire dissertation of the events and conversations that transpired last night, I was in awe of how you had come to do that along the lines of what espoir and I were leaning in the direction of before you had read those postings (I assume you hadn't, anyway). It's amazing to see the internal mental process at work and how you had taken yourself from your original approach (Disclose the e-mails & confront) to where you ended-up (Focus on the issues at hand armed with the knowledge gained by reading them). Aren't you amazed at yourself? Isn't it just awesome that you could not have done that even a year ago? You deserve to be applauded.

There are different types of courage and one of them is to act despite your fears for the sake of the greater good. You are overcoming one of the biggest fears that many of us shy away from the most: The fear of change. At first the outward actions are very purposeful and thought-out, very deliberate, but eventually, as the new mode of thinking you are embracing becomes an actual part of your being, it will be a natural expression in such a way that you cannot imagine yourself being any different from it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I kept thinking a lot about what Blind Sided said 2 me, and that helped me 2 remain as focused as I've ever been able 2 during one of our "discussions." It truly is a wonderful way 2 live, loving without conditions and living in the NOW. I'm not that good at any of it yet, but a whole ton better than I ever have been in my entire life. Again, it's sad that we all don't take courses in this stuff growing up, before trauma hits us in one form or another.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now this brought tears to my eyes. I remember a time when you so very politely and eloquently responded to me once with an attitude of "You do not understand my situation, for yours and mine are very different, so your advice does not apply"

I was initially put-off by the meaning of the comment but it sure didn't stop me from coming back and speaking my piece now-and-again! So I am especially touched by what you have said here in this posting. I am so happy for you and I find delight in you as a person who is constantly growing and has openly and eagerly embraced change, seeing it as a positive force of transformation and not as a force of destruction of the self. I am glad that I finally had some advice that “applied to your situation” <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> LOL

Now I still am unsure about the insistence on her part of continuing the friendship w/RM; that makes me wonder about the level of respect and commitment she has for you and the marriage; but, all other signs are positive, so work with it and feel the love! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> - Scott

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When you forgive, you in no way change the past - but you sure do change the future. - Bernard Meltzer</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is no better exercise for your heart than reaching down and helping to lift someone up. - Bernard Meltzer</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ July 03, 2003, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: Blind Sided ]</small>

Blind Sided:

"I remember a time when you so very politely and eloquently responded to me once with an attitude of "You do not understand my situation, for yours and mine are very different, so your advice does not apply"
I was initially put-off by the meaning of the comment but it sure didn't stop me from coming back and speaking my piece now-and-again!"

And THIS brought tears 2 MY eyes! B, I've done this more than once, 2 more than just yourself, in the past year or so. I am so, so, so sorry 2 you and those others that I did this 2. I think on this, and the fact that I've done this 2 my W, 2, all these years without realizing it, and I feel like some kind of concentration camp guard (okay, that was a goofy allusion 2 a recent news story!). Okay, maybe not that severe, but I do feel pretty awful for having done that 2 you (and them). I'm glad you, those others, and my W have not let me keep that up! And, should I slide backward and do it again, to ANYBODY, please nail my head 2 the floor, because I will have it coming!

"So I am especially touched by what you have said here in this posting. I am so happy for you and I find delight in you as a person who is constantly growing and has openly and eagerly embraced change, seeing it as a positive force of transformation and not as a force of destruction of the self. I am glad that I finally had some advice that “applied to your situation” LOL"

Thank you for being there! And I recognize that you don't HAVE 2 post 2 me. I am honored that you choose 2 do so.

"Now I still am unsure about the insistence on her part of continuing the friendship w/RM; that makes me wonder about the level of respect and commitment she has for you and the marriage;"

Obviously, I share those concerns. But beating on them with her hasn't worked in 18 months, so I'm going 2 let the air out of those particular tires by changing the focus. Make it a non-issue by making it a non-issue. A good friend of mine, one of those I hurt like I did you with the atti2de above, made the simple suggestion (many, many times, but I just "got it" in the past 2ple of days) that I be the best friend that she gets from RM, and my problem will go away. My s2pid stubborness has prolonged the "inappropriate friendhip" precisely because I kept resisting it, which was anything but a friendly way 2 act around my W.

"but, all other signs are positive, so work with it and feel the love! - Scott"

I promise!!!

-ol' 2long

<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

2long-

I want to tell you that your wife not being able to sleep is a WONDERFUL thing.

You are reaching her consciounsce (Sp). the changes in you are reaching that wall and she is starting to feel conflict because what she thought and what is are very different things.

My personal feeling is to just keep on this path. I think that as you continue reacing her, the friendship will mean less and less to her because you will be providing her with everything that she needs. His role will continue to diminsh in her life.
JMHO

Thank you, kily. Not surprisingly, dense ol' 2long (something like 5g/cm cubed) didn't realize that possibility!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Dawg! 2ble post!

<small>[ July 03, 2003, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TMCM:

That's one of my favorite Alan Parsons' songs! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

-2long</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mine too. It's almost scary to think that it's been 20 years since it came out.

Hi! I was just lurking by and saw my name! (Been pretty busy lately, first time in a while I've sat down to "MB".)

I certainly don't mind receiving views from others - whether pushing, prodding, suggesting, etc. - we're all responsible for our choices, and we have to live our own lives with satisfaction in our own paths. I take very little personally now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Basically you do sound like you've got some ideas on where you'd like to be, which is good. I had a driving instructor back in high school that would always say, "Look where you want to go and steer there." So be it!

Yes, your W's living a strange dual life! It's interesting - what few "holes" RM might be still filling right now could very well be being there to listen to her "sense of rebellion and independence." In that respect, it's hard to say whether she'd let you fill it - by definition that could be hard. (I'm saying this from some personal observations in my sit over time.) What would benefit her most would seem to be shifting her way of thinking on things. It's a subtle thing in some ways - and quite likely not a "fatal" flaw for your M - but I can appreciate how annoying it must be. I would hate to be her or any other WS - having to use pseudo-logic seems really hard!

As for my sitch, I've decided to push WW a bit... If she cracks or flys off the handle - then I've decided "oh well!" I've posed a lot of questions for her, and recieved some pretty thin responses, but it shows me anyhow that her mind isn't exactly sharp - and that's just not very attractive to me. So with me so willing to accept any outcome, and therefore willing to push things along... I left her last with the statement:

In the end it really boils down to “do you want to remain married or not?” and if the answer is “I don’t know,” then “what do you want to do about it?”

Direct enough??!? My goals have been to settle matters enough in my own mind to know I did all I could and that she's a "lost soul." So I don't fault you in wanting to be sure yourself... you're probably in the best position to make the judgements on all that.

I've found it interesting - your milage may vary, but I've taken to asking her a lot of probing questions - thought grenades as it were. Even with some weak responses (e.g. still quite self-centered), she's determined to reply lately. When I hit "Send" and think, "oh boy, that one will really pi$$ her off," I get a response - usually with some signs of life, maybe even care, concern and deep-down, someone familiar to me. It's a path I've been taking for me, but maybe it'll help her too somehow.

In any case, it does sound like your W has made some revelations re RM lately. If she's starting to "get it," that could be very big. But as you know - it's a process, rarely an event. So I wish you both well - lots of great advice so far!

J.R.

Good to hear from you! I think you're right. It is definitely a process and not an event.

Since our convo, there've been more good signs than "bad" about the state of our M in her mind, but there have been a couple of bad. The good stuff is that she genuinely does seem to feel my hurt better than before. The bad is that she still is contemptuous of M. Yesterday, she said, about a friend of hers "she wants so much to have a boyfriend and can't seem to find peace without one. Whereas I never wanted one." In MY opinion, which is important only to me, this makes no sense. Why have TWO of them at the same time, if you don't want one at all? Has to do with her view of commitment, I think, but that's my opinion, too.

But one of the "good" things was her realization that the comment hurt me. I also realized I should have said something to her at the time about it, rather than let it fester in my craw, which is MY history all these years to do so. I still have a lot of work to do, but it's better than hiding our feelings now.

-Qfwfq (aka 2long)

I'm reading but I don't have anything to add yet.

It looks like life continues to be interresting at your house.

SS

SS:

Yes. iT is. Still good and bad interesting, too! My D is having a "pirates" theme bbq party this afternoon, so I went out and bought some "Pirates Keg" brand sodas for them (my D is great, she and her friends don't drink), and I got a nice kiss from my W for the idea! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

It's almost as hot as YOUR place around here this week!

I'm going to hang in there. It seems that this convo had a bigger, positive impact on our relationship, and that's good. I'm going to keep it up!

Thanks for checking in. Hope you and your family had a good 4th!

-Qfwfq

Way to go, Q! I thought your convo with W sounded excellent. And I like your insight into your POV of her "marriage as prostitution" comment.

Your thought about "if you never wanted a boyfriend, why do you have 2" cracks me up. I kinda wish you had said it to your W as a joking comment. Sometimes I think that the whole solution to this situation is not to take it so seriously, to inject a little humor into it. Take the power away from RM and all the marriage negative comments. I mean, really, it's ridiculous! Can you tease her at all about this stuff, or is she pretty humorless? It's a very fine line to tread and it's very difficult. But it's good to have some of that flirty teasy stuff going on in a marriage. (That stuff is common in affairs, and hard to maintain in marriage).

Try lightening up for a couple of days, no R talk, tease her a bit, flirt with her, throw her some unexpected compliments. Ignore the whole RM thing- don't give him power. Think to yourself- "I have the power" and then act accordingly. You have the power not to let all this stuff devastate you.

Just an idea.