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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, I didn't do THAT, exactly. What I did say was that I want her 2 be happy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2long,
I can't speak for all women, and I'm sure there are exceptions.....but I don't think that inspite of how good this sounds, that this is what most women want to hear....at least by itself! Believe it or not, but it communicates indifference. What they want to hear IMO of course....is that you will miss them and that you would rather that they didn't go....but that you want to help them be all that they can so are willing to make a small sacrifice IF it will make them happy and NOT destroy your marriage. You are both entitled to be happy, and if you aren't, you should be honest about that.
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ALW:
"lI guess my lack of patience with matters like this comes from the fact that I have been dangled too close for comfort to death, and I have this need to be happy for as long and as soon as I can have it, and that makes my patience shorten."
I understand this, though I haven't been near death recently. Life IS short, and I don't have that much of it ahead of me! But, I also recognize the source of my own happiness now. It has nothing 2 do with what my W decides 2 do with her life. It has everything 2 do with ME deciding, right NOW, that I intend 2 be happy. It's a choice that I can make NOW. And so I choose 2 be happy! (and that doesn't mean I choose 2 be ignorant, either).
"I am just wondering, when you look at your marriage, in the full picture, can you say, that if you were younger, single, and dating, if you knew all that has happened, would you marry your wife again? Even if you couldn't change one thing? Knowing where it was going to take you?"
Well, if you think about it, you'd realize that, if I were 2 start all over, but knowing what I know now, life couldn't possibly take me down the same path, could it? Maybe similarly painful paths would develop 2 help me grow. I don't know. As 2 whether I would marry my W all over again? I think so. The things that attracted me 2 her 29 years ago are still there, perhaps clouded a bit by all the confusion, but there nonetheless. They're beautiful, 2.
"I don't know, I just wish I had the answer to make your wife get over whatever it is that is dragging her down, I wish I had the infinite wisdom to find a way to make her be happy and just appreciate marriage as the beautiful thing it is, not as the burden she thinks she is carrying."
So do I! And, obviously, I've spent 18 months trying 2 find the answer. But it was never any magic bullet that I could have used, anyway. She has 2 find her way out of this misery she's chosen on her own. I can't do that for her. (and that realization, this week, was very liberating for me).
"I do know one thing though, ultimately, the one person in this world that can make you happy and will make you happy, and has the absolute power in taking decisions to change your life is you."
Yep.
"Your wife can choose whatever path she will choose, but hanging around intersections makes life shorter and it is extremely short as it is handled to us in the first place."
I think this view is true if people like me (or my W) are in "denial" or stuck in some way. I liked this quote on d_rose's thread yes2rday: "Delay is not denial." I appear 2 have been delaying making decisions for a long time now. Yeah, I've delayed. I've also been in denial many, many times. But by being patient, I've come 2 realize that my happiness isn't something that I have 2 wait for, it's something that I can access now. And as such, it doesn't matter if I'm at an intersection, or if my W is at an intersection. I choose 2 let her make her own choices as 2 which way 2 go from the intersection now. It's ac2allly interesting letting go completely the desire 2 make suggestions, because I can watch her make her choices entirely for herself (and without any reason, therefore, 2 resent my suggestions). I see plenty of signs that she's making choices that protect US and our family.
For example: The results from RM are STILL not back. She said last week that she'd go get them from him (about a 1000 mile drive) this weekend or next week if he doesn't send them before that. She OFFERED 2 take her mom with her, without me saying anything. She then said she told RM that, and he thought it was ridiculous. I don't know any more than she told me about their convo, but I frankly could give a Rat's A$$ what he thinks. What my W thinks, and why she made the suggestion, is most important and telling. And when she told me what he said, I reminded her that I didn't make any such requirement that she take a "chaparone" (her word), but that I thank her for making the offer. I am not reacting 2 her characterizing the whole concept as ridiculous in any way, either. Why? Because, frankly, if she were inclined 2 resume her R with RM, she'll do it anyway. I'm just thankful for the expression of effort on her part 2 re-establish my trust in her in whatever manner she thinks is appropriate. And I don't think she wants 2 resume her A with him, truthfully. I think she's gotten really curious about my changes, and wants 2 see more! ;o)
"I wonder if she is happy, if she knows what will make her happy, and if she knows it, what it is."
I don't think she does yet. She has thought, for many years now, that getting 2 do the things she's wanted 2 do as a professional would make her happy. Some of those things are about 2 start happening now, so it will be interesting 2 see what she thinks of them now. But I've gotten plenty of inklings that she's realizing that they're not going 2 be the source of her happiness, anymore than winning the lottery would suddenly make the winner happy. "If she doesn't, you might be waiting for somebody who is lost to start walking somewhere, and people that are lost and know it tend to hesitate and trip so often, sometimes they just give up and sit in the same spot, waiting for somebody to show them the way home."
She may have wanted 2 give up many times in the past 2ple of years (but so have I!), but she always does get back up again.
"Maybe it is just an extended mid-life crisis, that just goes on and on and on."
Who knows? I don't think I care. If it's something that everyone goes through, I might as well face that and help her through it, 2 the extent that's appropriate.
"Maybe I just had too much sugar and I am rambling too much." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
-ol' 2long
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Conan:
I had 2 look up "Narcissistic personality disorder" 2 see what you're talking about, and thankfully I would have 2 say that my W doesn't fit any of the conditions for that at all well.
...and if BS and I were having a party, he musta done drank all the beer,cause I don't remember having any! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
-2long
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Honey:
It is certianly true that the length of time I've known my W (29 years this past april) bears heavily on my "hanging on" the past 18 months. But now it's different. I do this because I want, assuming the worst and I "have 2" DV, 2 be where SC is now, spiri2ally. I admire his growth, which I've had the pleasure of watching for more than a year now. He's an inspiration!
-2long
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Blind:
"The only danger I see in this new mental state, and the one I try to guard against, is in getting so philosophical and psychoanalytical that I find myself becoming so detached as to be above everything, where nothing touches me or affects me, and that is not my true goal. I still want to feel, to reach out and touch, to affect and be affected, and to experience the emotions that life’s experiences and relationships bring to us all, it’s just that I want to enhance and elevate my experiences to a higher level of conscious awareness in the process. I must walk in balance. I am in this world but not of this world. Does this make sense to you?"
Like the quote from Peter Gabriel in my Qfwfq sig line!
I try not 2 worry about whether I might just go "poof" upon achieving "total enlightenment" or something, because if that happens I won't be all that concerned about our mere mortal flailings, will I?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> -ol' 2long
POOF!
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Star:
Very good point. I've said some of that, 2, but I could certainly emphasize my desire 2 keep our M 2gether better than I have.
-2long
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Blind:
"The only danger I see in this new mental state, and the one I try to guard against, is in getting so philosophical and psychoanalytical that I find myself becoming so detached as to be above everything, where nothing touches me or affects me, and that is not my true goal. I still want to feel, to reach out and touch, to affect and be affected, and to experience the emotions that life’s experiences and relationships bring to us all, it’s just that I want to enhance and elevate my experiences to a higher level of conscious awareness in the process. I must walk in balance. I am in this world but not of this world. Does this make sense to you?"
Like the quote from Peter Gabriel in my Qfwfq sig line!
I try not 2 worry about whether I might just go "poof" upon achieving "total enlightenment" or something, because if that happens I won't be all that concerned about our mere mortal flailings, will I?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> -ol' 2long
POOF!
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I was going to post, but I see I don't have time to right now.
Ignore this, this post isn't here.
These aren't the droids you are looking for.
SS
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I don't have a lot of time this morning, so I'll try 2 come back this afternoon and elaborate, but last night and this morning we had another very good, very long discussion.
We talked about pretty much everything that bothers me (and her) about our sitch, and what keeps us going. I can't think of many things that I've posted here that we didn't talk about. So, I'm pretty sure the ice has been broken, hopefully for keeps.
But how do I feel now? I'm very hopeful, but very tired at the same time. I go back and forth between extreme optimism and utter despair. Throughout, I don't feel 2 much pain, though, and I realize that the love I feel for my W is not so much romantic as it is truly unconditional (meaning, I will love her whether we continue our journey 2gether or apart).
Like I said 2 my W during the convo: "The one thing that still scares me now is that I'm not afraid of what might happen 2 us anymore." Does that make any sense?
I'll elaborate later, when I can marshall my thoughts and recall some of the highlights from the convo.
-2long
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"The One thing that still scares me now is that I am not afraid....." STOP this sentence right here and look at it ..... look at how this part stands alone.
Now continue:
"of what might happen 2 us anymore."
You are afraid therefore you care ..... this seems to be where you are "coming from".
Not being afraid is having faith. Sorry, Mr. Agnostic, you are becoming faith based. (Not religious, that's different)
You are developing a new philosophy, and that's scary when letting go of the old fear-based philosophy.
Pep
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Pep:
Yeah, I "admitted" a few months ago that I'm a "spiri2al atheist". I'm not even sure I'm an atheist anymore, but I'm not religious either.
Faith dosen't necessarily have anything 2 do with religion. Faith is knowing something's possible, and acting on that. Scientists conduct risky experiments all the time based on their faith in the possible outcomes (and the knowledge that not doing anything impedes progress!).
Yes, I do care very much. Always will. But my W still says that she cares for RM, and always will, and I can't expect her not 2 see him anymore. That hurts, and she knows it. There's a lot more 2 that conversation, though, and I'm afraid I just put more negativity in2 what was said than is really there. For example, she did acknowledge that their R was never "real" in the sense that they never had 2 live 2gether and deal with each others' flaws like we do, so it's easy for RM 2 "accept her for who she is" because who she presents 2 him (and he 2 her) is in essence "coreographed" (though I didn't use that word). I told her that "I can't compete with that, and it's useless 2 try. But I truly CAN accept her for who she is, through learning about myself and talking 2 her about what I've learned. It's harder, but it's real life.
Nevertheless, my "despair" moments relate in large part 2 her view, at this time, maybe not forever, that she can't give him up. And here is where patience comes back in2 play: I don't believe this is true in the long term, and I believe that "delay is not denial", at least in this kind of case, and "I'd rather be M'd than right". For now, so long as I can remain patient, and show a little empathy, I think this can work. But it still hurts. Hopefully, just not 2much.
-ol' 2long
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2Long, Please tell us the good parts.
What came out of this that helps you want to continue?
That makes you think it will work long term?
SS
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SS:
Hm... so much of those parts of the conversation can't be verbalized all that well - like touches, hugs, tears that go along with the words.
At one point she said that "we've always gotten along well, hardly ever argue" even when things were "going badly" between us. We 2th acknowledged that there's a bond between us that neither of us can imagine going away - like she said "even if we were to DV, I can't imagine not seeing you. I'd still want to spend time with you." But she still says that about RM, 2.
In the end, I have 2 remember that we've not been on the same "page" regarding recovery all this time, because we've been so reluctant 2 communicate frankly with each other about how we feel. And, like I told her this morning, I don't think that now we can ever go back 2 the "way it was" where we had these HUGE R convos every couple of months that left one or both of us going away feeling lost. I told her that I think that this kind of honest communication of our true feelings needs 2 continue, and now I think that it can.
But JL told me a long time ago that this will take "longer than most" because of the duration of the A (and it doesn't matter if I think it was 12 years long, versus her belief that it was a couple years 12 yrs ago and then again 3 years ago). Regardless of whose yardstick is used (or not!), the simple fact is that my W of 27 yrs deserves my patience, just as much as I hope 2 be blessed with hers.
♥2long
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AWESOME 2LONG! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Now see my new thread and comment....Thanks.
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B:
I looked for "recent posts" with #0, and couldn't find it.
?
-ol' 2long
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Song for the day: <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
"Come Talk To Me" - Peter Gabriel
The wretched desert takes its form, the jackal proud and tight. In search of you, I feel my way, though the slowest heaving night. Whatever fear invents, I swear it make no sense! I reach out through the border fence, Come down, come talk to me.
The swirling, curling storm of desire, unuttered words hold fast. With reptile tongue, the lightning lashes - towers built to last. Darkness creeps in like a thief and offers no relief. Why are you shaking like a leaf? Come on, come talk to me.
Ah please talk to me. Won't you please talk to me? We can unlock this misery. Come on, come talk to me.
I did not come to steal. This all is so unreal. Can't you show me how you feel now? Come on, come talk to me. Come talk to me. Come talk to me!
The earthly power sucks shadowed milk from sleepy tears undone. From nippled skin as smooth as silk the bugles blown as one. You lie there with your eyes half closed like there's no-one there at all. There's a tension building on your face. Come on, come talk to me.
Won't you please talk to me? If you'd just talk to me. Unblock this misery! If you'd only talk to me.
Don't you ever change your mind. Now your future's so defined. And you act so deaf, so blind. Come on, come talk to me. Come talk to me. Come talk to me!
I can imagine the moment, Breaking out through the silence, All the things that we both might say. And the heart it will not be denied, 'Til we're both on the same damn side. All the barriers blown away!
I said please talk to me. Won't you please come talk to me? Just like it used to be. Come on, come talk to me.
I did not come to steal. This all is so unreal. Can you show me how you feel now? Come on, come talk to me. Come talk to me. Come talk to me!
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I put this CD on last week, sometimes only Peter Gabriel will do. This is such an inspirational song. Blood of Eden is another one that touches me.
Lablady
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Things are different today. Way different. I feel very different. Very peaceful. Not resentful (at least I don't think so, but I may have some come up that I'll need 2 quash). Not spiteful. Definitely not angry. Pretty much compassionate 2ward pretty much everybody (even RM, in a weird sort of way). SS had asked me yesterday what "good stuff" I could tell about from the convo we had the other night, and I responded with something she said, but there was more last night. We didn't have another long convo, because she was very tired from work. What she said was "Thank you for that discussion we had. I think it was very good for 2th of us." And it was. It was so different from previous "heavy R discussions" that I don't think there's 2 much worry of having another one like that again any time soon (if ever).
I feel so utterly cool right now. I really do! I'm not apprehensive about her talking 2 RM about me or our M. I'm not even worrying about her desire 2 keep his friendship or not "give him up" anymore. That's fu2re stuff. It may or may not happen, I don't know. It truly doesn't matter. I'll not be able 2 cross that bridge until I get 2 it anyhow, and in the meantime there are all these pretty flowers along the roadside 2 admire and contemplate miles before the river!...
I think this "RM issue" is finally losing power over me, because I've finally begun 2 truly stop giving it any.
-ol 2long. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />
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(YODA VOICE)
MMmmm, good you feel now? Very good indeed. Yes my padawon, let the force flowwwww through you. Much peace you will find. MMmmm.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
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I'm trying 2 put my finger on when the "coolness" started. It started with the light bulb finally lighting up when I posted something about resentment and radical forgiveness 2 STTSI's thread a week or 2 ago.
It's still COOL, because of this convo, Friday evening:
I'd talked 2 my W during the day, maybe 3 times, about logistics stuff like bills. When we were settling in for the night, though, I said:
2: I missed you 2day. Mrs 2: I missed you, 2. I thought about calling you to tell you that I love you.
She meant it, 2! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
-2long
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