Terri,
He doesn't do his part as a parent, a separated parent. I don't see anything wrong with pursuing legal custody at this point. It isn't the divorce, it is custody.

And, I suspect receiving legal papers FROM your lawyer will surprise the heck out of him. Something he didn't orchestrate.

He always has you running scared "don't make a scene" "your antics".

Well, legalities are real, and I think he needs all the reality he can get. Afterall, he thinks he can do whatever he wants, but you better put away the lawnmower cuz he says....

Hi, Got shot down a little today. One of my well meaning friends sent me an insightful email, an excerptt I'd like to share...

"forgiveness only comes after you have acceptance and inner peace. I thought
that you were on your way, and you have made great steps in some areas and I
am so proud of you, but I now think that when it comes to the true affair of
the heart that you are in the same place. I never want you to give up hope
or on your dreams, but maybe, just maybe you could give this one up ... just
for a while, just so that you have true time to heal. Because until you do, you will never never get on with you life.

You have so much to offer people, you are beautiful, smart, fun to be around
... the list goes on. Believe that in yourself!! and forget what H thinks. You mentioned in your email the other day some of your current stresses. The one that struck me was the last one ... D's well being.
For some reason that one struck a cord with me and my comment on that is this .....

If a mother doesn't worry about their child's well being ... well, they are not a very good mother and you are just being a wonderful mother. I constantly worry about my children for many reasons, and you will too ...
for their entire lifetime. That will never change. However, if you refer to
D's well being where H is concerned, then, there are some things that you can do to help the situation - the ones that are in your control.
Also, you have to remember that H really doesn't want to hurt D ...
if you don't believe that you should. I know he has, but I really don't
think that this was his intention (not taking his side at all).

My last comment(s) ... I want you to be happy. I want you to be fulfilled,
I want you to have inner peace and like who you are! When this is accomplished, you will not want H anyone because you will know that he
doesn't deserve you."

Well everyone, she means well, I know...but she sent me another email telling me that H was talking to her and her H about buying a house and that he had been looking at a leather chair...see, she says, he's moving on...

When I hear these things, I am jealous, hurt...ALL those emotions...and I want to scream to him, "Don't buy a house without me. Don't buy that G**D**N chair without me, sweetie...come back...I promise, it will be wonderful..." but I don't. The tears came but I stopped them.

I didn't call him like I used to...I just internalize the pain. I breathe. I clench my teeth. And of course, I come here.

Two years ago, he told other friends that he was buying a house and a boat...he didn't but he may this time around.

Oh God...

I continue to stay silent.

Lor, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And, I suspect receiving legal papers FROM your lawyer will surprise the heck out of him. Something he didn't orchestrate. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, that's the way I feel exactly. Is this a 180?

Well, it's the opposite of what you have done, so that fits with 180. And, I'd look at it as not setting the divorce in action, he did that, it's settling some hanging issues for the separation.

I think your friend was trying to uplift you and in some ways support you.

The rest is just advice from her, you can take it or leave it--like you can with any of us when it doesn't fit you at the moment.

And you know what, find a moment and scream. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> Outloud. I used to go scream in the car. Pounding the dash felt pretty good too. Don't bite your lip and stuff the mad ALL the time because eventually, it has to go somewhere.

T --
Stop being wounded by anything he SAYS...because the reality is he DOES very little of what he SAYS.

You get yourself all worked up over this stuff and it never comes to fruition.

The REALITY is that he needs the divorce to be financially settled before he can use any of your JOINTLY owned money to buy a house. Otherwise he simply complicates the whole situation, cuz then you are entitled to half of whatever he buys. He's all talk.

In fact short of moving into the apartment, the only thing he's done is whine, bit** and complain for over 2 years.

I'd be sick to death of him by now -- I can't imagine why you're not...???

Terri ~

I care very much about you and your situation. I simply find it too exhausting to respond to the same things with the same answers over and over.

It's been 2 years - no end in sight - because you have sat for 2 years paralyzed with fear - some real, some imagined, basically wallowing in self abuse, and allowing your husband to do anything he wants to you.

Everyone I have come to respect on this board has told you everything I've told you, and more. You are still sitting where you are. This is because of your choices, not your husband's. There is nothing more that anyone can tell you that will change anything.

Until you are willing to do the work, there's nothing else to say.

I want, as much as anyone on this board, to see you happy. But that happiness has got to come from inside of you Terri, not from us, not from your daughter, not from your husband, not from your family and relatives, and not from the opinions and thoughts of others.

Your husband acts the way he does because you let him. Its that simple.

terrified...

When I (and I believe the collective we)..who will and should correct me if I am wrong...

encourage, advise, nudge, pound you with 2X4's, and more recently roll our eyes and gnash our teeth... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
for you to do something....

our somethings do not mean that we believe in grand demonstrative actions that mean you should divorce him... or that "we" have totally given up on your marriage...

It means that you choosing nothing is becoming more damaging than something

Friends who love you and see you everyday...will most likely you to move on because they can not stand to see you in such pain...and in all honestly if you were still with your husband...you would most likely advise a friend if you were watching from outside to do the same...that is all understandable...

BUT you're doing nothing to take control leaves you floundering and stuck...

your inactivity is leading to complacity and and unspoken acceptance...which is actually making an environment for which you fear most...divorce...more of a reality than any ACTION you do.

first of all....EVEN if YOU divorce...or start the process of divorce...does not equal definate absolution....It may be a catalyst of God forbid...communication between you two..

Think about that for a little bit..terr..

what if you doing nothing is the exact action that leads to your divorce..

do you want to change that.
even though changing it will be scary...

I think you have a lot of suppport here..people willing to help you figure out...
direct actions steps..to help you feel in control..

prod prod prod prod...

ARK

Ok Ark,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">do you want to change that.
even though changing it will be scary... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YES!

no 2x4's required today, I think. I want get down to business. Let's plunge forward with action but I need help with a plan.

Then I have a list to confirm (I'm one of those "lists" people so hopefully, you don't mind").

i)You've given me a wonderful list of things "to do" for just me...understood that I should get out there and try new things, meet new people, for confidence building, right?
ii)Force action on H taking D so that I get my time which means I trust him to take her wherever (not my problem)
iii)Take all pictures/diplomas down in the office, put in a box and return remembering to include Yugoslavian brochures
iv)Pack all clothes, etc. which comprise H's leftover belongings and return
v)Redo rooms in the house, paint, buy furniture where needed, change things where needed...just uplift
vi)Don't have to talk to a lawyer re:custody schedule or anything else but email H with one so that we can avoid future incidences like the one on the weekend (thought that a letter from lawyer in HIS mailbox would be one of those 180's)
vii)I should appear happy and content in his presence, look good whenever I HAVE to see him and act pleasant...

THANK-YOU with love.

that's MY Terrified...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

ARK

Create the illusion of "someone' else...

ILLUSION>>>>>>

Terri,

I recommend a healthy dose of self-esteem. If you respected yourself, if you cared about yourself the way you want your daughter to treat herself, what would you do?

I suggest reading Leilana's thread on the D/D board and pay particular attention to her signature line. I hope to read that same by-line on your posts, because it will only be when you love yourself enough to kick his fanny to the curb and get the lawyers involved. Be completely committed to taking it to over. Because his hateful actions do not belong in an on-going relationship and the only way you are going to change his actions toward you is to change the nature of the current relationship you have with him. Let him court you and remarry you if it pleases you. But DO NOT allow him to publically abuse you and humiliate you. You are not a child. You are not some servant. You are Terri, the mother of his daughter. and he would be wise to remember that you are not chattle.

Terri,

Hi, I'm a new member. I have just entered Plan B and I hear you clearly on how gut wrenching Plan B can be. My WS birthday was yesterday which was the hardest day since I found out his latest deception 2 weeks ago.

I have to agree with Honey. With the very little contact there must be in plan B with your D, I am doing the same thing in being polite, cordial, and kind instead of cruel, rude, snappy. This I feel has helped, especially around the time of my period. Usually I am crabby the week before as most women are. I say this because my WS told me a week ago today that it was his lowest morning in a while. I asked why. He said because the OW got her period and was *****y. I immediately responded with "Welcome to reality, she's just another woman isn't she?" He said yeah, you're right.

By showing him my transformed kindness under the worst of stressful conditions I believe is showing him that my changes are for real and permanent and unlike what the OW has been feeding his mind about me.

His B-day was a very difficult day for me. I also agree with Honey about the counseling together. I know what Ark said about NO CONTACT whatsoever, but I just cannot and will not go that far with Plan B. I personally need and want some sort of pipeline to be able to access what progress if any he is making in his head, and counseling will be mediated and will provide that for me.

Take care and hang in there.
PandJwillsurvive

Me - 34
WS - 33
D-Day 02/27/03 for last June, 07/16/03 for this June. Affair was one weekend in 06-'02, no contact for entire year until 06-'03, then daily from then on. Same woman both times. Stranger.
Kids (G-7, B-5, G-3)
Plan A 07/21/03 - 07/29/03
WS moved out 08/03/03
Plan B - 08/18/03

Please don't be offended by the 2x4's. They are sent lovingly.

I believe wholeheartedly in MB. Do you? As a WS, I know what would have worked on me, what I would have reacted strongly to. I believe in this process.

Do you?

If so, how do you feel about your plan A? Do you know what changes you needed to make and do you think your H acknowledged or noticed them? Most likely he would have had an "angry" reaction to them like why now do you finally change?
So do you think Plan A fulfilled its purpose? Personally I think you were too long in Plan A, but thats for you and Harley to discuss.

Now for Plan B. When you follow these processes in textbook fashion, they WORK. You can see them in action for several posters right now. How is Plan B working for ya?

I have personally felt that the 180's would have more impact on your H. I just had that feeling that the way to get to him was by you moving on quicker than he was (or at least letting him think so)

I'd so much like to see you move forward instead of staying stuck with a jerk of a WS.

Terrified:

I'm so far behind on your story that it's not even funny. But as I read all the things everyone else is telling you, something jumps out at me hugely:

Change your username!!!!

You use this name, you're going to continue to BE this name. Become what you need to be. Courageous. Strong. Alive. Pure of heart. Firm. Certain. Purposeful.

BE those things. Take the name, take the strength. Take one baby step at a time.

Terrified,

How are you? Beautifying your home? I hope so! Sorry to hear status quo continues....

I hate it, hate it, hate it, myself.

Do something different! Good mantra....? eh?

Lately I have taken up learning to meditate, I used to do this with yoga classes, but now started a deeper connection with God in my mediations... reading a good book on it by a guy from Montreal, sorry his name is escaping me this moment.... he learned from the Monk's...

The concept is- Be still and know that I am God.

Do take care of you T.

Don't let him bring you down.

Be beautiful, be happy, despite his condition... see him looking out at you... through the window of that insane assylum as a sick man choosing to blame you. Be kind to him when you deal with him as I have said before like you would to a sick child.... he is hurt, and attacking you. Sad.

You are strong and you are better than what he dumps on you. Don't let him dump it on you T. Remind yourself daily of who you have been and you are.... Remind yourself of the strong beautiful T... !!! The one who wasn't so hurt by a man!

Hugs and Hope as Always... I am cheering for you.

Honey <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hey there,

Been thinking about you,

Thought I'd pass on a piece of advice that was given to Mimi by Keepmvn4wrd (hope you don't mind I paste this here).

This has helped me immensely. During the most agonizing of the Plan B days I had to read this often, and find I still need to follow this advice now as not to become too clingy...but, here goes:

Just remember that you do not HAVE to do anything that I say or anyone else says. It is your choice.

I have been studying this issue of how to get a person back for over 20 years. What I have learned is that they usually do not come back when we pursue them and keep telling them we love them. When we keep "hanging" in there and hoping and praying they will somehow suddenly come to their senses. I very seldom see that happen.

Now, what I have seen work the best to get them to come around is this:

Do not pursue in ANY way. None. Nada.
When you do talk to them, act like everything is just perfectly fine in your life. Do not ask any questions about the relationship or getting back together or ANYTHING slightly hinting that you would take them back.(small talk is ok, but always hang up first.Tell them nice talking to you, but I have to go.)

Do not reveal every thought that comes to your mind. Be mysterious.

It is ok to call them if you have some business to take care of. Do small talk for a few minutes, get to the matter at hand, then politely end the call FIRST. (Don't think of excuses to call everyday)

Do not be so available when they call.Wait awhile to return calls. When you return it, do small talk, get to the matter at hand, then hang up FIRST.

When THEY bring up the relationship, agree with their view of things.(for example; yes, maybe this separation is good, or yes maybe WE do need some time apart.When you agree with them, they suddenly want to change their view of things. It really works to get them back.

You do not need a plan B letter or a plan B to do all of this Mimi. This also gives you the freedom to call, to have contact, and to get them to do the same thing plan b does. Harley has some great ideas, but plan B puts the BS in a tight spot if they start to feel like you are feeling.

The final thing is this. When you show him you can and will move on with or without him, and stop ALL pursuit and allow him to WONDER if he has lost you, is when he will start to slowly test you to see if you will still take him back.
DO NOT VEER off of your course. You have to be consistent with this day in and day out.

Be strong. It IS the way to get him back. It is ok to have insecure feelings. Just do not let him see, sense, or think that you want him back.

This is what I have concluded that works by far the best to get a person back. Strength. Confidence. Acting perfectly happy just the way things are in your life. No pressure or pursuit.

Let them wonder if you have met someone and are suddenly interested in another person.( I call it the phantom OP) Why? Because jealousy is very, very powerful and if they love you even the slightest, this causes them to re-think things.
They even do drive by's(ever do that yourself?)
Do not underestimate the power of jealousy. In my study, I have been very surprised by how many times I have seen this work. When they think they have some competition, it turns into a whole new ballgame....

If you do these things, you will probably get him back. If not, it will most likely slowly die.

Men RESPOND to a strong woman who will not share him. They respond to a woman who walks away with her dignity and shows self respect. They respond when you show them that you would rather be alone than to let him have his cake and eat it.

Let him see you moving on. Let him see that you are enjoying your freedom. That you enjoy learning how to take care of yourself. No matter what others tell you, this is your best shot to get him back.

Let me redeem myself. I didn't give justice to the all the replies I received due to a very RUSHED day yesterday (7th root canal in two years...hmmm, wonder if stress has anything to do with this one?)

Lor, I'm going to have to mull this one over a little...but maybe I have no choice BUT to take it to the lawyer? I don't know.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The rest is just advice from her, you can take it or leave it--like you can with any of us when it doesn't fit you at the moment.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're right. Just wanted to give you guys a sample of where everyone is at right now...give up, they tell me, let go, move on...GRRR. Love these people dearly BUT sometime, they just don't get it.

Hey Lex,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stop being wounded by anything he SAYS...because the reality is he DOES very little of what he SAYS. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're right...but it still hurts to hear it. Not sure if he'd go out and buy something just to PROVE he's good on his own.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'd be sick to death of him by now -- I can't imagine why you're not...??? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When you put it that way, I feel a little embarassed. Sometimes, I don't know why myself.

Hey BR,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I care very much about you and your situation. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank-you for saying that. Means a great deal to me since it is an exhausting story.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Until you are willing to do the work, there's nothing else to say.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am willing to do "the work". I need help in keeping myself focused to do it. Do you feel the work is "the list"...a good stab,etc?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your husband acts the way he does because you let him. Its that simple.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess you're right. Sometimes it's difficult to view it that way or more often than not, I'm not confident in my ability to disallow it.

Thanks to all for your encouragement and your support.

Have a good long weekend.

Terr,,

Take all pictures/diplomas down in the office, put in a box and return remembering to include Yugoslavian brochures

I think this is a good start..but it must be done totally in a good mood...and you should stop by with them...OR you could take them over to his office at lunch time...to his place...

You know i was in the office the other day...really you should have these...

Terr you also want to get his attention...ask him about some town/place you guys visited together...and what was the name of the hotel or that one restaurant you went too?
Tell you are thinking aobut going back there some day soon...get away a little ....

and leave it lay out there....

you view everything as your loss with out him..he does the same...EXCEPT you give him very little to wonder about because you are always where you're supposed to be according to him...
heck look how the guy reacts when you take the bus home....go somewhere mysterious and he'll eat his heart out...

stillheremaking it lays it out well based on keepmvinforward's advice to Mimi..ooy vey...there's a mouthful... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

How about just calling him say...need you take daughter next thursday I have a dinner date!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

period period period...

You don't want to dump all his stuff in his lap as if you are angry or making a stand...

you want to return stuff little by little...as if it's something that catches your attention in your well divided attention on other things....

And definately in a great mood...with no anger...say we really need to work out a schedule for daughter and you taking her more...I have some things in works coming up that I want to do....

terr the more ok you are with seeing him..happy upbeat...like it's a neighbor...the more you will get his attention...he's used to being able to accuse you of being pouty, offstandish, angry, hurt...whatever the soup of the day is in regards to blaming terrified for his misery...disarm him...be happy and upbeat...

be allusive..
question him about near future availabilities...and tell him you are hopeful that he is willing to work with you on watching daughter so you can go do 'somethings"

don't address the list issues with him like it's a list...address it like it is you who wants freedom from him...to enjoy life and freedom from being concerned at all how he is or what he is doing...or how he will react...

now about that new plasms screen tv i think you deserve..exactly how irked would he get at you spending a chunk of his hard earned money on such a luxery>>>>???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

ark

I'm curious now T, now that I think about how long your H has been living in the apartment (plus the added time that he was a poop while still at home).

How can you go so long without YOUR needs being met?

If we all believe in these concepts, then how come you still love this guy?

What are your top EN's? And how could he possibly be filling any of them?

In fact, he's LB'ing you daily...why hasn't your bank drained completely?

Are you really ready to do the work?

Here's my homework assignment: <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Every single morning and every single evening you are to look in your mirror and say OUT LOUD:

Terri, I love you and you are worthy of respect.

The specifics of what you need to do for yourself will flow from there.

((Bump))

T,

Been thinking about you. How are you doing?

There is another BS out there dealing with their WS in a long distance A. Very hard. I will try to direct her to your thread.

Hugz,
L.