2long,
You must have joined MB after the philosophical point-of-view threads.

So, although it is very useful to address specific poster's questions. Sometimes, like when it was me, there were not a lot people who blamed me either for serving the D papers or dating, because very few thought they could have gone through 6 reconciliations/7 separations, a spouses co-worker affair either.

But I respected the MBers who said "It's still wrong."

I respected my prayer partner who said, "God hates sin and you are in sin."

And now I have this miraculously (with hard work too) restored marriage, and it still makes my stomach drop to think of the OM, who was hurt by our relationship. He too believe that since I was separated, I was available. He was wrong too.

And I wish I had not hurt my H, even though he had the long term affair. I wish I hadn't.

At this point, my 17 year old would accuse me of over-arguing...so I think I'll let this discussion go.

Maybe <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ July 02, 2003, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: Lor (Lor) ]</small>

naive,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course God hates divorce. I am not arguing about that. All I am saying is that she both biblically AND legally can find a new husband with God's blessing. Do you really think God doesn't know their hearts? Do you really think that he would say, "the divorce isn't legally final till 4 more months, so she is sinning for having thoughts about another man." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Biblically, I would argue that you are mistaken. If all we have to go by is God's word to us (the bible), then reread what Lor posted:

Matthew 19: 7-9

"They said to him, "Then why did Moses command that a writ of dismissal should be given in cases of divorce?" He said to them, "It was because you were so hard-hearted that Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but it was not like this from the beginning. Now I say this to you: anyone who divorces his wife--I am not speaking of an illict marriage--and marries another is guilty of adultery." (the New Jerusalem Bible)

The "adultery" clause you refer to isn't there. And regardless of whether it is or not (in other words, divorce is OK in cases of adultery)---remarriage is certainly forbidden in any context (until a spouses death---and don't get any ideas...).

That's not a popular view, obviously. But it's a view that is supported by the Gospels. Legally, you can do it. Popular opinion won't forbid it either. But I wouldn't go so far as to guess that God wouldn't be deeply offended by this action.

Lor:

Good stuff!

Like I said before, something can be okay but not be expedient. Morality is another issue, and bears heavily on the "okay" 2uestion. So, morally (with a lot of gray boundaries, depending on the flavor of morality in 2uestion), it's not okay 2 date until after a DV is final.

My W rationalized that 2 mean that, since she had been "emotionally DV'd" from me for years, due 2 my withdrawl from her, that she could have another R and it would be "okay." Okay, she probably had 2 rewrite her 'moral code' even then, and avoid terms like "infidelity" and "affair" (yes, she did do this with "it was a relationship, not an affair"). But none of that matters 2 me right now. NONE of it. Why? Because I want my M back, and I've demonstrated rather drammatically on this 4um for 18 months now, that harping on the "non-okayness" of her A hasn't gotten me anywhere.

The goal is rebuilding our M. So, her having the A is history and whether it was okay or not is immaterial. It wasn't very expedient, because even if we "recover" this afternoon at 5, it will have been at the end of a 12.5-yr struggle. There've got 2 be more expedient ways 2 grow closer! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Kuljey's (and others' like hers) si2ation is delicate, in my view, because we've come 2 know her somewhat over the past few months. She's sensitive, a loving mom, she's been hurt deeply by her H's actions, and this friend has come along with knowledge of a similar si2ation that MIGHT be able 2 help. Unfor2nately, he might inadvertently hurt her a whole lot more, 2.

Good friends are very valuable things. Hard 2 want 2 "shelve" until some legal document gets printed. But good friends are also compassionate, and anyone who's been subjected 2 what kuljey is being subjected 2 ought 2 be pretty empathic as well, 2 the extent of backing off for a while if that's called for. We can only hope.

-ol' 2long

I beg to differ, read a little farther in Mathew

Remarriage was allowed to the innocent party (Deut. 24:1-4) In this passage we also see that in God even allowed divorce if the guilty spouse had been involved in sexual unfaithfulness that fell short of the actual act of adultery itself. The important note is that remarriage was allowed to the INNOCENT party. In the New Testatment, we see Jesus’ teaching on divorce in Matthew 19:4-9. Due to sin and the hardness of man’s heart, Jesus ALLOWED divorce when one mate had been guilty of fornication...or sexual sin with someone else other that your spouse...Even then, the ideal situation would be for the innocent partner to forgive the guilty party and try to restore the marriage. (Recall the Book of Hosea and the story of Gomer). God realizes that sometimes that is not humanly possible. No one can stay in a marriage where there is repeated unfaithfulness. Therefore, God allows divorce for SEXUAL UNFAITHFULNESS. Later on in I Cor. 7:15, 16 Paul gives another circumstance that would allow divorce - when the unbelieving partner DESERTS the believing partner. Paul is saying if the unsaved spouse no longer wants to stay married to the saved spouse and leaves the marriage....EVEN if sexual unfaithfulness has occurred or not...this divorce is allowed, remarriage is allowed to the innocent party...as it was allowed for sexual unfaithfulness. According to the Bible, REMARRIAGE is allowed for the innocent party when divorce has occurred due to the two Biblical reasons above: FORNICATION and DESERTION by an unsaved mate.

K, I respectfully disagree. And here's why:

While I agree that Jesus, in Matthew, was not giving an allowance for the ONS or the one-time adulterous affair, it is clear that He, in His wisdom, allows for a divorce on the grounds of a habitually unfaithful spouse.... Jesus speaks about porneia (which is different than the word used for adultery, which was moichao) being a reason to seperate yourself from your spouse. During that time frame, porneia was not speaking solely of fornication before marriage ~ it was also referring to the habitually unfaithful, whoring spouse.

Now, following that train of thought, the question becomes not is it allowed, but "What does 'put away' mean?" Does that mean divorce, under our modern understanding? Or is it more of a seperation where there is no actual divorce or remarriage? Dunno, wasn't there. So, I'm not going to fault someone who reads this differently than I do. Because, quite honestly, there is room for interpretation there. Might be that it gets interpreted incorrectly, but truthfully, we could have 10 people open up to that passage and get ten different views.

MY view, and the view of the studies I have taken, is that the "out clause" is referring to the habitual adulterer, but either way, what is abundantly clear is that God states through Christ that he hates divorce, but understands the fraility of man in this issue.

If one would read my replies on the thread in question, one would see that there was very, very little about the "relationship" that could be construed as "bashing."

Most of my replies were towards her children and not to what she is doing as "wrong".

Naive, btw, I think you hit the nail on the head with your last post, if that means anything!

I beg to differ, read a little farther in Mathew

Go ahead and quote the verse because I don't see it.

I do prefer reading the verses, rather than interpretations.

1 cor 7:15, 16 "But if the unbeliever chooses to leave, then let the separation take place: in these cicumstances, the brother or sister is no longer tied. But God has called ou to live in peace: as a wife, how can you tell whether you are to be the salvation of your husband: as a husband, how can you tell whether you are to be the salvation of your wife? (v 17) Anyway let everyone continue in the part which the Lord has allotted to him, as he was when God called him."

I don't see this as approving of divorce.

Deut 24:1-4 "Suppose a man has taken a wife and consummated the marriage; but she has not pleased him and he has found some impropriety of which to accuse her; he has therefore made out a writ of divorce for her and handed it to her and then dismissed her from his house; she leeaves his home and goes away to become the wife of another man. Then suppose this second man who has married her takes a dislike to her and makes out a writ of divorce for her and hands it to her and dismisses her from his house or if this other man who took her as his wife dies, her first husband who has repudiated her, may not take her back as his wife now that she has been made unclean in this way. For that is detestable in Yahweh's eyes and you must not bring guilt on the country which Yahweh your God is giving you as your heritage."

Unclean & detestable, don't sound very approving of the situation.

OK, Chris, I am a veteran internet debater. I have my strong and weak points. One thing I do not like is the passive aggressive way of making a point

I guarantee Kuljey saw the post title and knew it was inspired by her situation. Lord knows I did. And I am not a member of mensa.

I think this post may really hurt her, really make her feel singled out and picked on. I would me. On a support board, I find this kind of "innocent" posing of a question to be mean spirited.

Her situation is a in a gray area. Our spouses who dated while we sat in the dark were not.

naive,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Due to sin and the hardness of man&#8217;s heart, Jesus ALLOWED divorce when one mate had been guilty of fornication...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't read that passage this way. In fact, Jesus specifically refers to the law of Moses being a compromise for "hard hearts", but that "in the beginning, it was not this way".

Calypso has very nicely put emphasis on the armenic porneia, which was not considered adultery. I've come to a slightly different conclusion of the word (meaning either fornication before marriage OR marriage between closely related people), but I certainly can accept Calypso's definition.

I would say that there is no "out clause" from marriage. It is deeply grevious to God. However, as Calypso states---it's certainly true that God understands the fraility and sinful nature of man---that's what Jesus was for.

However---it's best to avoid sin. And the particular case that we're discussing (dating while legally married) certainly is sinful.

To advise someone who is going through a divorce to go and date is not a caring form of advice. Especially if you have children.

When a person is experiencing a crisis such as this and has been painfully hurt by being traded out by her former beloved, what kind of choices would you make? Not very good ones in the midst of such a storm.

Bible rules and stories were written to protect us from hurt and from ruining our lives. How many times have you read in the paper about boyfriends hurting the children of their girlfriend. They are strangers being invited into a home with a family.

I would hope that a woman contemplating dating in days during her divorce would think. Think long on it.

I do not think that having patience and thinking things out, and waiting for the divorce to be finalized is a bad practice at all. I would call it wise. And I would be even more prudent as to whom I was going to think about dating esp. with the little ones. They need to be cared for. And they need special attention re. the divorce. Professional attention would be on my mind for them.

I would think that the difference is clear when you say...

In the process of getting a divorce... and then

Divorced.

"In the process of divorcing" is NOT divorced. There is nothing on file that tells you are no longer married. It is just being set in motion, and the end result (divorce) has not been met.

No judge has said "yea, verily" you are no longer married.

In all morbid reality, it would be the same as having a terminally ill spouse...and deciding to go ahead and start dating because you are "in the process of being widowed"?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Ok...ok...ok...a little on the outlandish side....but I think that the parallel should be obvious.

But Lord...what do I know....

I just got creamed all day for finding a boudoir photo and a posing swimsuit photo to be inappropriately displayed on a marriagebuilding site. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Don't take what I say to heart....it will be the ESFJ in me doing all the talking. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

committed

Please ...don't flame me here...I am all OUT of asbestos!

Well, scripture is open to interpretation. I do believe that God allows for a forgiven divorce in the event of infidelity, so did my father in law. He counseled me when he found out that I had the right to a divorce personally and in the eyes of God. He hoped we could work it out, but felt I surely had the right and the decision to reconcile was mine.

I read matthew 19-9 as saying the one reason for a forgiven divorce is an adulterous spouse 8 He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. 9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality and marries another woman commits adultery.

Heck, I am going to start dating! Better believe it? I've lost some weight and got some new clothes. Need the affirmation of myself!

Gotta make sure there is no one better suited for me. Know that my current H is not the best.

So? won't have sex. Just be friends. Talk and share. Maybe I'll have someone to complain about how my H doesn't understand me! Maybe I can help him with his marriage problems. Maybe I really will find my soulmate.

Won't lie to my H, just tell him I am working late. Or going on a business trip...hey, there are some nice men at my office...I never thought about dating them. One is always so complimentary about my work. Young, too. I'll take him up on that invitation to coffee!

Goodness it will feel wonderful to finally be able to have someone to listen to me. All my H wants to talk about is himself...Blah Blah Blah...so depressed. I guess if I took an interest he would cheer up. But this sounds so fun! I have been so stressed lately, my golf game is suffering....dating will help me to just get away for even an hour from the demands my family puts on me. Nice to find someone that might love me for my wonderful self and not just what I can provide.

Gosh, I have learned alot about dating from my WS...it must have a place in our marriage, because he taught me so well!

Heck, I am going to start dating! Better believe it? I've lost some weight and got some new clothes. Need the affirmation of myself!

Gotta make sure there is no one better suited for me. Know that my current H is not the best.

So? won't have sex. Just be friends. Talk and share. Maybe I'll have someone to complain about how my H doesn't understand me! Maybe I can help him with his marriage problems. Maybe I really will find my soulmate.

Won't lie to my H, just tell him I am working late. Or going on a business trip...hey, there are some nice men at my office...I never thought about dating them. One is always so complimentary about my work. Young, too. I'll take him up on that invitation to coffee!

Goodness it will feel wonderful to finally be able to have someone to listen to me. All my H wants to talk about is himself...Blah Blah Blah...so depressed. I guess if I took an interest he would cheer up. But this sounds so fun! I have been so stressed lately, my golf game is suffering....dating will help me to just get away for even an hour from the demands my family puts on me. Nice to find someone that might love me for my wonderful self and not just what I can provide.

Gosh, I have learned alot about dating from my WS...it must have a place in our marriage, because he taught me so well!

"Her situation is a gray area."

Gray area ... is where we get into trouble! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Gray area ...is when we most need to look closely at our moral compass.

Gray area ... is why I am going to the salon tomorrow afternoon!

Peace to you Naive'

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ July 02, 2003, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Well said WFLOWER.

I too had the opportunity for dating women before my divorce was finalized but I chose not to, because I realized that I was very vulnerable to making a disastrous mistake that would not only have affected me but would have negatively impacted my daughters who had already suffered tremendously because of their mother's multiple affairs. What if my daughters, who were hurting, would have emotionally bonded with one of those women, and then for some reason, I or her decided to end the relationship? I would have been fine but what about my daughters?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by naive':
<strong>

I think this post may really hurt her, really make her feel singled out and picked on. I would me. On a support board, I find this kind of "innocent" posing of a question to be mean spirited.

.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">naive, I find it very bizarre that you would characterize well meant criticism, that is obviously offered in her best interest, to be "mean spirited." Is the truth "mean?" Is it nice to sit idly by and watch someone make destructive decisions just because you don't want to "hurt" their feelings? That makes no sense. There is nothing "nice" about that.

There is a big difference between well meaning advice that is meant to help and mean spirited pot shots. It has to be apparent to you that Chris is not bringing this up to hurt anyone, but to help because he really cares.

I know some people are so proud and close minded that they can't recognize the difference, but that is not the fault of the criticizer, but rather an issue of maturity with the criticized.

I think its very clear that dating is not a good option for someone in this position, especially the children involved. A good friend will mention this concern. Someone who doesn't care will say nothing - or worse, condone it - because they sure aren't going to risk a reaction from someone they care nothing about. I would much rather hear the TRUTH than phony nice words that I can get anywhere.

<small>[ July 02, 2003, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Naive,
Oh, I'd posted Mat 19:7-9 on page 2 of this, so when you said read on...I assumed you meant after that. The New Jerusalem Bible doesn't use the word immorality. (I'm using that translation in a Bible Study and it was nearby the computer)

"anyone who divorces his wife--I am not speaking of an illicit marriage--and marries another is guilty of adultery." (the New Jerusalem Bible)"

dustkitty, that is ridiculous and you know it. Geez people, her husband is long gone. He wouldn't come home. They are legally seperated, they are legally divorcing

Why do we all go over to her house and berate her. It will have the same effect as what some of you are saying. This thread is just plain mean.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to differintiate actions. No one has said go out and date while in recovery, or while trying to fix your marriage.