</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sufdb - space...I think the only thing that this thread proves is that a great many of us are still very, very stuck with the desire to be right rather than happy.

s....could this post be an example of that focus? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Only if you choose to interpret it that way. I believe all of my posts have been clear in that I respect what you believe, and without reservation grant you that right, even if I don't believe it myself, and only ask for the same courtesy. That same courtesy is what was not forthcoming in a great portion of this thread.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> space...It ceased to be for or about Jen Brown a long time ago, and became a pulpit for expressing that desire to be right above all else, our fellow man included.

s...scratching my head. Tell me, oh tell me pray tell, how does one advocate a positon if they think they are wrong? (assuming one is mentally healthy, and not including devils advocacy). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One doesn't advocate a position one believes is wrong; one allows others to advocate their position with the same respect one expects for one's own position. When this is not allowed, or is dismissed, it becomes a pulpit and not a debate.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Space the heart and soul of issues oriented debate is passionate belief in your convictions (hopefully with an open mind as well though). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This last part is PRECISELY what has been missing in the majority of this thread, and the EXACT REASON I posted this.

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Space the heart and soul of issues oriented debate is passionate belief in your convictions (hopefully with an open mind as well though).
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This last part is PRECISELY what has been missing in the majority of this thread, and the EXACT REASON I posted this.

s...You really really think that space? I don't see it. Does that apply to all here, how about me? My assessement of this thread is that for the most part it has been a polite, open minded discussion of extremely volatile issues.

In any event re the pulpit theory, that is not possible in this venue because no one has to listen....unlike the bully pulpit, or a captive audience of any kind (like an employer, or military authority). This is as free as it can get for an exchange of ideas...right? The only thing one gets accomplished by using this as a pulpit is......... ignored.

Mel:

"My favorite sink cleanser is Soft Scrub with a fresh lemon scent. What does everyone else prefer?"

Today? Twelve molar hydrofluoric acid.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sufdb:

I can see your point (a little) should something completely morph into a pure religion debate, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And it hasn't done so already?

s..I noticed the delay, I suspect it was because the location wasn't too relevant to the issue, long as the Scripture was correct. But I did note your effort to make that correction. Not being a Biblical specialist (in any sense) I didn't comment myself.

The location isn't relevant? This is what especially gets me. I was thinking about this at lunch. When I hear someone quote a Bible scripture I immediately go to the Bible and read it. Doesn't that make sense? On this post, there has been a lot of "talking heads" who have not done their research. Why would you have a discussion about the Bible without looking in the Bible yourself? It DOES matter that the scripture is in Matthew and not in 1 Corninthians. You know why? Because Matthew 18 is talking about ALL sin should go before the church when a Christian is stuck in the sin and not wanting to repent. IT is not specifically addressing marriage. 1 Corinthians 7 is written by Paul and is ONLY talking about Marriage. Matthew 18 never says, you should bring your spouse before the church and if you don't then you aren't really divorced and getting remarried is adultery. Now, how is the church to be held accountable if they do not practice discipline or how is a Christian to be held accountable if they don't follow through with Matthew 18 ? I have no idea. I know that Matthew 18 was the way it was supposed to be. I also know that God sent his son to die on the cross for all sin because He knew we would mess up. I know that God wants us to look to him for answers, and so many people on this board have given their opinion without consulting God in prayer or the BIble they seem to think they know.

As far as my "need for validation" - I don't really think I need that so much, as I need someone to do their research before they start giving opinions on something as important as Christianity and what the Bible says. And everytime I tried to explain that, I got ignored. My beef is not that I got ignored, my beef is that as Christians we are called to know what we are talking about- and I don't think this thread has proved that. I think this thread is definitely a PULPIT where several people have just wanted to shove other opinions down other throats without having all scriptural facts in place.

I think I see a whole lot of very judgemental censuring going on here and that disturbs me terribly. This was a very civil, respectful religious discussion that has become uncivil by those who would inflict their own standards on the rest of us. Talk about forcing ideas down the throats of others, they want to close down the thread. Sharing an opinion or fact with someone isn't "forcing your ideas down others throats," trying to shut down discussion *IS*.

Suddenly we seem to have new standards for threads being forced down our throats by the same folks who are complaining that religion is being forced down their throats. ["became religion debate", "a pulpit for expressing that desire to be right above all else." {I guess it is better to be wrong} <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ] ummmm, did I miss the MB rule that there are to be NO relgious debates?

I am sorry, but we members have no right to shut down others just because a discussion makes us uncomfortable. Nor are you entitled to a response to your every post, no one gets that. If you don't like the conversation, why not move onto another thread instead of attempting to dictate the behavior of others?

<small>[ July 16, 2003, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

2Long - THAT stuff will clean the clock of just about anything! I'd love to hear what you think would be a strong cleaner...grin!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
I didn't know suggesting that you check the Bible before you quote it and before you have a discussion on it was judgemental. If so, I guess the shoe fits.
I'm out. I surrender. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Mel:

"This was a very civil, respectful religious discussion that has become uncivil by those who would inflict their own standards on the rest of us. Talk about forcing ideas down the throats of others, they want to close down the thread. Sharing an opinion or fact with someone isn't "forcing your ideas down others throats," trying to shut down discussion *IS*."

Well, I was more inclined 2 run like he!! than shut down the thread, myself. I think whether it wound up being "civil" or "respectful" is a matter of opinion. I won't go in2 detail, because there's no "solution" 2 this kind of empassioned argument, but suffice it 2 say that being told repeatedly (here and elsewhere on this 4um) that I'm not "going 2 heaven" because I'm not on someone's subjectively interpreted narrow path, when I know different (heaven is something we can all attain NOW), doesn't attract me much 2 these kinds of discussions. ...and I love talking about religion, politics, ...affairs.

"{I guess it is better to be wrong}"

There is no such thing! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> You knew I couldn't resist THAT one, didn't you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Seriously, I think it's better 2 be enlightened. In some cases, we get that by being "wronged" (ie, our S having an A). For the oppor2nity for enlightenment, I am grateful. But I do hope we never have 2 get there that way again! (I promise 2 "get it this time!")

"] ummmm, did I miss the MB rule that there are to be NO relgious debates?"

Is this a rule? I honestly didn't know if it is. I apologize, after all, it is the Harleys' 4um.

FH:

"2Long - THAT stuff will clean the clock of just about anything! I'd love to hear what you think would be a strong cleaner...grin!"

We used it in a Sed Rocks lab a 2ple decades ago. Had 2 store it in plastic bottles, because it dissolves glass!! We used it 2 dissolve quartz. It would do quite a nice job on porcelain, 2! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-2long

<small>[ July 16, 2003, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by adgirl48:
<strong> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
I didn't know suggesting that you check the Bible before you quote it and before you have a discussion on it was judgemental. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">adgirl, I never said that was judgemental. In fact, I thought you made an excellent point when you said that! I said "YES, ADGIRL!" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Melody Lane,
Can we be friends?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

am sorry, but we members have no right to shut down others just because a discussion makes us uncomfortable.
???

I believe that the discussion concerning closing the thread was started because it had gone off-topic and not because people were uncomfortable with the direction it was taking.

and Jen Brown posted;
Or perhaps one of us could do something wildly inappropriate and against MB rules so that the moderator shuts down the thread, lol.
But it was HER thread to begin with, so her (even jokingly) asking to shut it down is very appropriate.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong> I won't go in2 detail, because there's no "solution" 2 this kind of empassioned argument, but suffice it 2 say that being told repeatedly (here and elsewhere on this 4um) that I'm not "going 2 heaven" because I'm not on someone's subjectively interpreted narrow path, when I know different (heaven is something we can all attain NOW),</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2Long, but that is a Christian belief. We have a right to express our beliefs, don't we? Or should we be censured from expressing Christina beliefs? We don't believe that anyone should be dragged into heaven against their will. Then it would be HELL. God is a Libertarian God, he likes CHOICE and won't make anyone choose him against their will.

However, heaven is a Christian belief, so those who aren't Christians don't believe they are going to heaven [or hell] anyway so there shouldn't be a debate there. You can't complain that you aren't going to a heaven when you reject Christian beliefs in the first place.

<small>[ July 16, 2003, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:

I believe that the discussion concerning closing the thread was started because it had gone off-topic and not because people were uncomfortable with the direction it was taking.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think most threads do wander off topic and thats what makes the discussions so interesting. I would have to say that is more the rule than the exception. It doesn't seem to bother people usually.

<small>[ July 16, 2003, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by adgirl48:
<strong>Melody Lane,
Can we be friends?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ALWAYS! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Mel:

"However, heaven is a Christian belief, so those who aren't Christians don't believe they are going to heaven [or hell] anyway so there shouldn't be a debate there."

Hm... I don't think heaven is a strictly Christian belief. And I don't think we should have 2 die 2 get "there."

"You can't complain that you aren't going to a heaven when you reject Christian beliefs in the first place."

I can do anything I want, and so can you. Do I reject Christian beliefs? Not that many. I was raised a Christian, after all. Like I said, way earlier in this thread, I don't think the Bible was intended 2 be a strict rulebook so much as a textbook on enlightenment. ...and a history book. ...and a book of folklore and mythology (and before you jump on me about that, "myth" does NOT mean "untruth", but the opposite).

I honestly don't mean 2 offend anyone, and will cheerfully shut up if you think I'm doing so.

-2long <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Originally posted by MelodyLane:
[I think most threads do wander off topic and thats what makes the discussions so interesting. I would have to say that is more the rule than the expection. It doesn't seem to bother people usually.
Usually, yes it does keep it interesting.

However, my reply was to you because you got so upset (for some reason.)
You said;
Talk about forcing ideas down the throats of others, they want to close down the thread. Sharing an opinion or fact with someone isn't "forcing your ideas down others throats," trying to shut down discussion *IS*.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>Mel:

"However, heaven is a Christian belief, so those who aren't Christians don't believe they are going to heaven [or hell] anyway so there shouldn't be a debate there."

Hm... I don't think heaven is a strictly Christian belief. And I don't think we should have 2 die 2 get "there."

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2Long,
And that is your right to believe whatever you want. Just as Christians have every right to believe Christians beliefs. You might believe the Bible is mythology and that is your right. We also have the right to believe it is the absolute truth. You said earlier that you were offended by those beliefs and I am sorry for that.

Mel:

"You might believe the Bible is mythology and that is your right. We also have the right to believe it is the absolute truth. "

I did not say that the Bible is mythology. Parts of it are, though. The story of Noah, for example. Noah is the judeo-Christian version of the Babylonian Gilgamesh.

As for absolute truth, I believe that the "truth" of the "moral of the story" or the truth portrayed in the alegories or myths of characters like Noah, or the parables taught by Jesus are absolute, though they may not recount actual events.

-2long

<small>[ July 16, 2003, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>Mel:

"You might believe the Bible is mythology and that is your right. We also have the right to believe it is the absolute truth. "

I did not say that the Bible is mythology. Parts of it are, though. The story of Noah, for example. Noah is the judeo-Christian version of the Babylonian Gilgamesh.

-2long</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And again, most Christians don't believe that at all and believe the historical data says otherwise.