Just a little update -

I have not been active on my thread here at Mb, not because I don't appreciate the support I have received here, or because my marriage is now fine and I have "moved on". I would say that my H and I are both working on appreciating each other, however, there are still areas where I am very cautious - we are not totally transparent with each other yet. We still have private e-mail accounts, and we still do not share finances completely.

However, there are so many positive signs of there being genuine love between us. I so often posted my frustrations, and I often find it difficult to tell my side of events without becoming terribly long-winded. Lately, I have been trying to put what I have learned into practice, and I think we are being more successful at being happy with each other, rather than discontented with what the other does - which isn't to say there aren't still challenges!

Some of the positives - H is much more affectionate - he hugs and kisses me out of affection now, says goodbye with a kiss, says hello with a kiss, not just when he wants SF. I go to him for hugs sometimes and he gives them to me. Because he does this freely, it makes me warm to him, and guess what? He gets SF when he wants it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Life can be good!

We have started to talk more, about our thoughts - although he doesn't share much about his feelings, he will try to answer if I ask, for example, right now, his mother is very ill and probably will need to be transferred to a residential care home within the next week. His dad calls every night with an update - this can be frustrating for H because dad is easily riled if he thinks H is "interfering" - so I listen both to his conversation (H turns up the volume on the phone because he wants me to listen in) and afterwards, when H wants to talk about the phone call. I am doing a lot of listening lately, and searching for the right things to say. His mother is suffering from dementia (probably she has Alzheimer's) - I said to him that the mother who loved him and was always on his side is still there inside, but she's reached a stage in her life where she is spending most of her time in another room of the house, and only pops her head around the door from time to time to say hello.

In talking about his mum and dad, and their R, and how they have been caught in what has ultimately been destructive to his mum's health, we have touched on choice - that essentially, his mum and dad chose to be the way they have been with each other. We can't blame the state she is in entirely on dad, because she chose to be with him and play the martyr, refusing medical attention until her health was completely gone. And he chose to allow her to bully him into doing nothing when he could, most of the time, have been kinder to her. I said, "ultimately every person has to choose what kind of person they are going to be - kind or unkind, honest or dishonest (just thought I'd throw that in there)" and H chimed in with "loyal or disloyal".

This is the one that made me REALLY happy - a few nights ago, we were both in the right kind of mood to chat casually. I shared more than I usually do - I said that I envied these young ones - the teenagers and 20+ in private schools and colleges, who had a chance to study just what they wanted with parents who supported them until they were done with school - because I had to work, and I have worked full-time or part-time my whole life since I was 17 years old - except when I was home with the kids (as if that wasn't work). I'm not complaining about my life - I'm admitting to envy. H said he sympathized and thought I had accomplished a lot with my life - he then said "I'm so glad you came over here (to the UK) to be with me." That was so nice to hear him say it - he has never said it before.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

H has also made a strong commitment to a family holiday this year, for the very first time - because HE wants to - finally it is because he wants to, not because I have begged for it, or demanded it as a concession. It came from him. This is huge progress.

Some things haven't changed - I still stay off certain subjects for now - but that's not because I don't still think about them. However, I also stay off them because I am trying not to "educate" him, and because I know there is nothing I can do to demand change - it has to come from him. I am still praying that these things will come in time.

I just thought, since so many posts are so painful to read, that it is only fair to post the good as well. We have come a long way since D-day no. 2, when I punched him! And a long way since last year when he wrestled me out the back door, and we spent 3 months sleeping apart! A long way since he told me his feelings for me had withered and he was only staying for the sake of the boys. A long way since he told me he was no longer interested in me physically. A long way since he told me he only loved me sometimes. I remember those things to remind myself of how far we have come, and to not get complacent, to not take things for granted, and to remind myself that I still need to be careful about taking care that I behave towards him with respect, and make it clear that I expect to be treated with respect.

We have a lot of work to do still - but I now feel this is a R worth saving. A huge thank you to all the MB coaches who helped us to get this far. XXXX

LIR

<small>[ April 29, 2004, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

HI LIR

So glad to see how you are seeing positives in your M. Continue to look for them and praise him when you see them. You know what they say about encouraging right behaviour by rewards rather than discouraging bad behaviour with pounishment.

Jante

LIR, I am happy to hear that you are seeing positive sides in the M, I envy you..I wish I could have my M too, but there can't be a M w/o H,right? Keep up the good work. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Hello LIR,

You say "we" have come a long way. And you have - both of you. I find that exciting, and somehow rewarding.

We have a lot of work to do still - but I now feel this is a R worth saving.

I have a big grin right now. It won't go away. What a happy post.

It still feels a little hard, I mean, you don't say anything, but the pent up feelings, the strain, the doubt, they don't all leave over night. I am very happy you can post this kind of post.

I haven't felt I could do much for you lately. I continue to pray for you, your whole family. I pray for your H, for himself, and so you and the boys can be happy too. I wish for him to understand and help you.

I think about many things as I struggle to improve myself. I find much here that helps me. As I look at myself in the mirror of knowledge about relationships, I often find myself slipping back into old habbits. It seems to take constant work to move ahead. Remember that as you work with your H, he will slip back.

I am sorry for his mothers troubles. I hope it can be a time of learning for him, and for his father. I often wonder ( with horror) what would happen to me if had no hope of improvement for myself. If I was doomed to stay the same and wasn't able to improve my marriage.

I am glad we can learn, and change. What a gift.
LIR, God is real, I know it. I can see your faith helping you to cope. I admire your good work. Please keep it up. Someday you and I will meet, and I will thank you personally for all you have taught me, and for your example.

I am glad you are getting along without needing MB as much as you once did. I do miss some of the exchanges we had, I had to think, and it helped me grow. Take care of those sons of yours, and your H. He needs you, though he doesn't know just how much. I hope you feel peace when you read this, and know that people care about you, for we do.

SS

Hi all - time is short, with summer holidays looming - H is home a lot, both of us working hard - I am finished with my school job for the summer - so have more time to do what I want to do - both kids will be home on summer hols next weekend.

Thank you for the encouragement, jante - yes, that is mainly what I am trying to do - just keep reinforcing the positive and being patient - right now the positives far outweigh the negatives, although I have to admit, I am not rocking the boat at all, which some would disagree with. I think the important thing is that a lot of good will seems to have returned between us.

Thank you wangi - I try to keep an eye on your thread, but you are getting some good advice from Orchid. I am sorry things are so serious for you, but your H has a lot of issues that don't have anything to do with infidelity, but more with abuse, addiction and low self-esteem. I'm sorry I flamed him on your thread - but I was tired of seeing him feeling so sorry for himself. I really hope you can distance yourself from the turmoil, and get yourself to a place of safety - you need some space, I think.

How nice to hear from you ss - I would like to say more, but again, I have so little time - I would like to come back when I have some time undisturbed, to talk over a few things, so watch this space. Again, I have you to thank for nursing me through that terribly painful time and I am sure that your attempts to help me helped prevent a bad situation from collapsing into what could have been an acrimonious divorce. So many times, we were on the brink of violence or walking out on each other. I am sure that I have you and Estes to thank for helping me to maintain some control over myself so that things didn't get any worse, and gave us a chance to start to heal.

I also miss our talks, but not coming to MB to post is not a rejection of you (or Estes) but part of my attempt to grow in myself. Because our recovery is still fragile, I still do not trust my H to know about my coming to MB (which can feel slightly dishonest to me). Nevertheless, I feel that is safest - I have seen too many R here on MB spiral out of control, with one spouse reading the other's posts, and the anger that comes from that, and bad feeling generated. That is the last thing our marriage needs. And yet, I still need positive support sometimes - like you said, we learn, and we back-slide, we learn, and then we have to keep on keeping reminding ourselves of what we have learned. I am just the same. I realize that I also back-slide, even while I am able to put a lot of what I learn into practice now. I haven't back-slid into yelling or arguing - pat on the back for me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> - with me, its lapsing into inaction and insecurity. I know my H would like me to be more dynamic, more outgoing, and I can lapse into being dependent and fearful - that's what I struggle with all the time.
So I am not coming to MB as part of my not letting myself use MB as a way of avoiding reality, getting involved in life outside my home. It's hard - but I am trying.

I will come back soon - most likely next week - till then - God bless - keep those plants watered! Its hot here, too!

Take care,
LIR

I also miss our talks, but not coming to MB to post is not a rejection of you (or Estes) but part of my attempt to grow in myself.

I don't worry, I support what you are doing. If someone doesn't come back often, I usually believe they are doing well, and that they don't NEED to escape life so much. I count it as being a good thing.

Because our recovery is still fragile, I still do not trust my H to know about my coming to MB (which can feel slightly dishonest to me). Nevertheless, I feel that is safest - I have seen too many R here on MB spiral out of control, with one spouse reading the other's posts, and the anger that comes from that, and bad feeling generated. That is the last thing our marriage needs. And yet, I still need positive support sometimes -

I tend to agree about that, in most cases, it causes more problems than it solves. Having both here only works when both are working hard on the marriage and they agree on the method.

I sometimes wish your mom lived closer so you could see her about once a week. She must be a strong person for you to be what you are. I think she did a good job, and I believe you are doing well. I think your boys are very lucky and I think they will one day thank you for the good job you are doing.

When you have bad days, we'll be around.

SS

LIR,

How nice it is to return from vacation and check in to see your positive update. I am happy for you that things are going so much better.

You are a great role model for the application of MB principles.

I rarely come to MB anymore, so if you want to talk, send me an email. I think about you often.

Estes

Hi LIR!
Haven't chatted much of late, but I was very, very glad to read this thread...it brought me joy, and I'm happy to see where you two are now.

Keep up the good work!

LIR, Cheery greetings from the West Coast.

It is blazin' up here but we are surviving. 90-100, depending on where you are.

Glad to hear you are doing good and I totally understand how important it is to show your commitment to your M also.

MB is a great place but it has it's time and place in our lives.

Please come back and visit when you can. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

This board needs to hear about the recoveries in progress, esp those doing better.

Soooo happy to hear form U! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hugz,
L.

So great to hear from you guys! It really warmed my heart to get these pats on the back! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Thank you so much!

Estes - I'll be e-mailing you soon - I have tried to put your advice into practice, and slowly, even with the backsliding, I feel like we are building the house back up again. Still a lot of work to do, though - still not a lot of transparency in our R, which concerns me, but so much more to build with than before. Hope you are well, and that the hurricane missed you! Will be in touch.

Spacecase - Hey! Lovely to see you! You I CAN see on the photo thread! I wouldn't dare try to decorate your house, though - you seem to have so many good ideas of your own - I do follow your threads and often look for you, hoping for some positive change - you've been a great example to me in generosity of spirit. I am so glad you have shared your journey with us - I have learned a lot.

Orchid - Thanks for the pat on the back! It's not all a bed of roses, as you can imagine - but so much good compared to the thorns, as opposed to being all thorns before, if you know what I mean. H is definitely trying to change the way he deals with situations - he's had a few opportunities to apologize in the last few months, let's put it that way - the difference is that when these things happen, I deal with it a lot differently, and so does he - its not just a glossy "sorry" and then on to the next time. I am more reasonable about how I confront him, I offload (gently, not with my own anger) the responsibility for his upset onto him where it belongs but let him know that I love him, too - it tends to stop him in his tracks, and I walk away - later we talk about it - so we are getting better at dealing with disagreements. Positive. Both of us trying to change makes it worth it, since we are both working on the marriage.

I will come back - I'm not gone - I read almost every day, but right now, family life is very busy.
At the moment, OS is home from school - I'm off to dig in the veg garden with him now, and then off to school sports day for YS in less than 2 hours (have to squeeze lunch in there somewhere).

ss - I had a big long post all written out and lost it all! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Guess I'll have to think harder - must not have been meant to be! Wanted to respond to some things, but will probably have to wait until later in the week!

Take care all of my MB friends,
LIR

Hi LIR,

So great to hear from you guys! It really warmed my heart to get these pats on the back! Thank you so much!

Don't you know it is easy to give pats on the back to people that deserve them!!

W said: How's Lir.
I said: I don't know, she hasn't been on lately.
W said: Ok.
I said: That must mean she is doing pretty good.
W said: That's good.

See, everyone's asking about you.

Ah, sometimes I get in these moods. Mostly I am going round telling people that I will be traveling for a few weeks and won't be on much. Just how much is much? Not much.

That reminds me of something I heard about down coats last week. I heard that you need to get your down while down is down, cause down is going up. ( say it out loud really fast, it will come to you.)

Well, I tried. I hate these moods, I better get some sleep.

SS

Ha ha - you make me laugh, ss -thanks for bringing a smile to my face! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I think I'm OK - and its good to hear from you - today I am giving a birthday party for my H - about 35 people, including 14 kids, in our house, which I have never done before! Four hours left to go, and I still have to buy paper plates, and go pick green beans in our garden, decorate the cake, etc! Arrgh! Actually, I'm having fun!

H is away next week to play a concert in Europe and I am putting the boys in cricket camp for the whole week - they will love it. Mid-month, we are finally having a week's family holiday together.

So I'm getting on with it, but I still have worries - will have to come back with those later - there's stuff I'd like to talk about when I have more time.

Its hard for me to express my appreciation for everything - sometimes I sound curt on computer - but I don't mean it - gotta go now - see ya later - please say hello to your wife - it was really nice of her to ask after me - I hope she is recovering from her surgery well.

Adios!

LIR

Dying to know how the birthday party went.

W is recovered - abut 95%. Still tired sometimes. I know she is close to 100% because she won't let me help any more with some things. Just after, she let me do everything.

Felt I ought to post, don't know why. Sending you encouragement if you need it. Laughs if you don't.

I hope you realize that people still care about you, still think about you, still pray for you.
Whenever you have down days, you can count on it.

SS

Hi there!

I'm up late - the boys are in bed, worn out - today was their last day of cricket camp (sounds funny to an American, I know) - cricket - that mysterious English game which no American has a hope in H*** of ever understanding - lingo, rules, WHY? Full-length games last 5 whole days - sheesh! Well, they loved it - I guess it takes a whole week of 6 hour days to even start learning how to play the game - I watched the last half hour of each day, waiting in the car - I learned that when play stops, the two batsmen (yes, there are two) walk off first, and the rest of the team (the fielders) clap for them as they walk off behind them. The coach insisted the boys do this, and some parents around me laughed and said "They've got to learn the etiquette as well!". My H is not coming home until Monday late, and the boys want me to take them to their first real cricket match tomorrow - I could do it - So Africa is playing our home team in a 3-day match, and the boys have been watching S Africa CREAM England in the test matches over the last couple of weeks - but I feel bad - I think it would be nice for H to take them to their first live cricket match. But he isn't here. He played a concert in Germany on Wednesday, but decided he would stay and visit our friends until Monday, and fly home late Monday night. He said it's because of the cost - that it was cheaper that way. Well, we both agreed, so its not a problem. I just think he will be disappointed if I take them to the match tomorrow - he might feel left out.

The birthday party was great. I cooked for about 3 days - I cooked everything - quiches, salads, desserts, and the birthday cake. We had about 35 people all in all, and everyone who came enjoyed themselves - some of our friends know each other, but a lot of them don't so it was fun seeing people meet new faces and have good conversations. I really enjoyed myself - I like cooking for a party, and I was happy to be able to do something nice for H. It was also an ego-boost for me to watch all the food fly off the table, and be complimented on such a wonderful job - I think I needed to prove something to our friends (maybe I was trying to show that I AM a loving wife).

But to be totally honest, I am still up and down with my feelings, and still find it hard. I still don't feel I can talk to H about many things, especially not what has happened to us these last two years. I still fear his reactions. It still bothers me that he keeps his private e-mail account, and there have been no further moves towards him putting more of "his" money in our joint account. All these things point to a "false" recovery, according to MB principles. And yet, in some ways, things are now quite different than they were before.

For instance, you know that I did not want to go to Germany with him this week - I decided not to go months ago. I did not want to A) have my behaviour under the spotlight with friends who are HIS confidantes, to whom he has given a stilted picture of me. B) put myself in a position where I could come in for verbal abuse, as has happened in the past when I go with him on his "working holidays". C) hang around minding the children while he socialized with our friends. Well, I stuck to my guns over several conversations and just said quietly that I did not want to go - he could take the boys if he wanted, but I would be staying here. He accepted my desire to stay here respectfully - he didn't shout or argue, or get spiteful - he was somewhat curious as to why I refused to go, but didn't pursue trying to find out my reasons.

This week, I have been on my own for 6 hours a day, and it has taken me that long to wind down - it is a blessed relief to have just a few hours in the day, every day, when I haven't had to BE anything for anybody else, not a good wife, not a good mother, not a good friend, not a good employee - just be alone and not have any pressure on me. I really needed this time to just not have to be anything except myself (not that I accomplished much, but that's OK). I did the one thing I have wanted to do for a long time - I had a fitness induction at the gym, and got myself a fitness program lined up - I have a check-up with the trainer a month from now, so I better start working. I realize that I really DON'T like getting older - OK, OK, I know its how you feel inside and all that, but....the truth is that while I am generally healthy, I feel weaker and more tired than I did when I was 26 (hey, who doesn't?) - but....I really want to do something about feeling better, and I was always physically active before I met H, so I think that's what would help me be happier, if I was stronger and happier with my baahhdeee, as they say in the Valley. Oh well, a girl can dream...

I still tend to fester from time to time with bad thoughts - I can still go over past history in my head, angry at the counselor for the way she let me down, etc. and I think a lot of that would not be there, if H would come forward and relinquish his need for secrecy - that is still a wound in the fabric of our marriage.

I also have a lot of mixed feelings about my being at MB. The truth is that I still feel lonely inside my R with H - because he has not come totally "clean", because there hasn't been any talking, because I feel like what really happened was that he was starting to get pretty seriously unhinged by the pressure of counselling, and the best thing was to just quit, so that is how I handled it - totally removed any pressure from him - quit counselling, quit talking R, quit asking for anything. I have just been loving him - and surprise, he has been loving me back - a lot - he is very affectionate now. He really thanked me after the party - really made sure he let me know how appreciative he was. But lately, no s*x - its maybe every 3 weeks - lots of flirting and touching, not much action, which kind of has me wondering. When he was wound up by being in his EA's, the s*x was pretty intense, but now, I don't know - I think he is bored with me, and I don't know what to do. Maybe its just that we rarely get a chance to be alone - with the kids home for the summer, etc. I guess what I am saying is that all this adds up to my having a lonliness inside, and I need to find ways to deal with that. I don't want MB to become a place where I go for emotional intimacy, and so I stop seeking it in my marriage. I also find that perhaps I still have a lot of anger with WS - I question my ability to help anyone on the boards right now - I see marriages where I couldn't in all conscience help someone stay married - I would advise them to get out! So that bothers me. I think I have learned something about myself, though, from being here and trying to post to others - I tend to say too much, and dump too much of my opinion all at once, instead of helping another person to find answers to their own questions. I think some of the best "veterans" are very gifted at asking short questions, and waiting for the answer, and going slow - I learn an awful lot from reading - maybe that's what I am doing now - learning by watching others. I know it has helped me in my communications with H - I don't "dump" on him anymore - I keep things short and sweet, and try to be patient about waiting for answers. So that's a big plus.

My last piece of news is that "buddy" has gone back to his home country - great news, that - he left last week - abandoned his religious vows and went. Somehow I was not surprised - last year, i said to a friend that the only thing consistent about "buddy" was the string of broken commitments behind him. He may still be in touch with H by e-mail, but at least there will be no more "personal" meetings - you know, those tete-a-tetes every week. I feel like God answered my prayers on that one.

I am still praying. Wow this is long - I can be so long-winded sometimes!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I hope you are well, ss - you sound good - glad to hear your wife is NEARLY 100% - it takes a while - how hot is it there? We are in the high 90's with no air conditioning! My garden is overwhelming me with beans, potatoes, lettuce, and squash! And I've got leeks and beets to go through the winter - also some tomatos and corn, but they're not ready yet. It's great not to have to buy vegetables! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

All the best, ss - thank you so much for checking up on me - its good to hear from you!

Ciao for now,
LIR

Hi there!

That's a pretty snappy greeting, that part is very good. I notice that you have learned many of the tools of being positive and happy even when you have concerns. That is one of the things you could teach others if you were here more. You do know some things about support and getting through troubles. I'll talk more about this later.

.....but I feel bad - I think it would be nice for H to take them to their first live cricket match. But he isn't here. He played a concert in Germany on Wednesday, but decided he would stay and visit our friends until Monday, and fly home late Monday night. He said it's because of the cost - that it was cheaper that way. Well, we both agreed, so its not a problem. I just think he will be disappointed if I take them to the match tomorrow - he might feel left out.

I know nothing about cricket, living my whole life in the US and you already know we yanks don't look outside much. It is interesting to learn, and I kind of like that about this site. It is one way to broaden my horizons about many things, not just marriage. I think if you explain your feelings to H (about how you wanted him to be able to take them, but didn't want them to miss it) it will be one more building block. I think it always good to communicate feelings like this to bring us closer together. I believe just the act of you telling your feelings about it will build good will between the two of you.
Hmmmm, I wonder if his flying back later is his being a penny pincher, or if - because he knows you worry about money he is trying to save to please you. This is another chance to build. You could say something like:
" I am so glad you are home, I admit I had mixed feelings about your staying another day. I wanted you home because I missed you, but I am proud that you thought enough to save money because that is important too."

Admiration is important to him, find ways to give it that you can live with.

I say again, you probably don't need to hear lots of this from me, but you know how I am.

The birthday party was great. I cooked for about 3 days - I cooked everything - quiches, salads, desserts, and the birthday cake. We had about 35 people all in all, and everyone who came enjoyed themselves - some of our friends know each other, but a lot of them don't so it was fun seeing people meet new faces and have good conversations. I really enjoyed myself - I like cooking for a party, and I was happy to be able to do something nice for H. It was also an ego-boost for me to watch all the food fly off the table, and be complimented on such a wonderful job - I think I needed to prove something to our friends (maybe I was trying to show that I AM a loving wife).

I am glad you had a good time, you seem to be a people person, and that would be your element.
No one that knows you well will doubt that you are a loving wife. If you ever have someone that expressed concern, or that your H has given the wrong impression to, just spend a day or so with them and they will know the truth. I think you know the truth when you hear it, and this should ring true. Still hard sometimes though, I know.

But to be totally honest, I am still up and down with my feelings, and still find it hard. I still don't feel I can talk to H about many things, especially not what has happened to us these last two years. I still fear his reactions. It still bothers me that he keeps his private e-mail account, and there have been no further moves towards him putting more of "his" money in our joint account. All these things point to a "false" recovery, according to MB principles. And yet, in some ways, things are now quite different than they were before.

I don't know if you have known this for a long time, and not communicated it, or what, but I have known your feelings about it right along. I figured to leave you alone, and speak of the positive as you were doing. It's always there, and we spoke of this mid December a little bit. In your case, where you have chosen to stay away from confrontation, and continue to love him, and to try, I think you are going about it the right way. I think I mention it so you will understand that you have support with it. Remember that my W and I were a year and a half in recovery and we had no A to make things worse. It is the same with most of life, we learn line upon line, precept upon precept. One of my worries, and I have stated it before, is that one day you would say " I can't keep doing this, I am finished." I don't worry about that as much, because I see reserves of strength. Remember too that you still have plan B should you ever need it. I believe he would be hard pressed to find someone that could ever meet his needs as you do. I believe that to be a flat statement of fact, something that you need to hear from a neutral third party.

For instance, you know that I did not want to go to Germany with him this week.......... He accepted my desire to stay here respectfully - he didn't shout or argue, or get spiteful - he was somewhat curious as to why I refused to go, but didn't pursue trying to find out my reasons.

If he does bring it up, you should tell him your feelings honestly. " In the past, I felt neglected because I watched the children while you spent time with friends, etc, etc. . I didn't want that to happen again, so I excused myself from going." When you express your feelings please always be prepared to say " I am just expressing my feelings to you so you can better understand me, and help me, please don't feel I am attacking you, or trying to make you feel bad, because I am just trying to learn how to better communicate with you."

This week, I have been on my own for 6 hours a day, and it has taken me that long to wind down - it is a blessed relief to have just a few hours in the day, every day, when I haven't had to BE anything for anybody else, not a good wife, not a good mother, not a good friend, not a good employee - just be alone and not have any pressure on me. I really needed this time to just not have to be anything except myself (not that I accomplished much, but that's OK).

I have been hoping you would get this time for over a year.

I did the one thing I have wanted to do for a long time - I had a fitness induction at the gym, and got myself a fitness program lined up - I have a check-up with the trainer a month from now, so I better start working. I realize that I really DON'T like getting older - OK, OK, I know its how you feel inside and all that, but....the truth is that while I am generally healthy, I feel weaker and more tired than I did when I was 26 (hey, who doesn't?) - but....I really want to do something about feeling better, and I was always physically active before I met H, so I think that's what would help me be happier, if I was stronger and happier with my baahhdeee, as they say in the Valley. Oh well, a girl can dream...

Our bodies and our minds work together to affect our health. Both our spiritual, psychical, and emotional health are affected by our thoughts, and the physical condition of our body. I believe you already know that, and you are seeking way to strengthen yourself and give you further advantage in this struggle you are in the middle of. I commend you for it, because it is so important but yet so difficult to balance our lives and do all of the things we need to do.

I still tend to fester from time to time with bad thoughts - I can still go over past history in my head, angry at the counselor for the way she let me down, etc. and I think a lot of that would not be there, if H would come forward and relinquish his need for secrecy - that is still a wound in the fabric of our marriage.

I still don't know ( nor do you) if he will wake up one morning and realize these things. I don't know if he will come to understand line upon line.......
I do know that you would never be happy if you didn't try. I believe the line you are looking for in the future goes something like this:
"Well done my good and faithful servant. Thou hast been faithful in a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things. Enter thou into the rest of thy Lord."

Since you have slowed down posting, the bad thoughts thing has been on my mine when I think about you. I have prayed a lot about that for you. Remember that we all face it. We have a real enemy that makes it worse as much as we let them. As good as my marriage is now, I still face this one just as you do. In fact, these things are true, and you know they are true. The bad things you think are true, and that is why they are so hard to cope with. I hang on to this one:
"......and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors."

I feel I need forgiveness as much as any man, and I know I need to forgive my W. The plain fact is that she does things wrong. I try and improve me, because I won't be judged for her sins, only for mine. I know that is not a cure, but it is a band-aid. Perhaps it can protect the wound long enough for long term healing to take place.

I also have a lot of mixed feelings about my being at MB. The truth is that I still feel lonely inside my R with H - because he has not come totally "clean", because there hasn't been any talking, because I feel like what really happened was that he was starting to get pretty seriously unhinged by the pressure of counseling, and the best thing was to just quit, so that is how I handled it - totally removed any pressure from him - quit counseling, quit talking R, quit asking for anything. I have just been loving him - and surprise, he has been loving me back - a lot - he is very affectionate now. He really thanked me after the party - really made sure he let me know how appreciative he was. But lately, no s*x - its maybe every 3 weeks - lots of flirting and touching, not much action, which kind of has me wondering. When he was wound up by being in his EA's, the s*x was pretty intense, but now, I don't know - I think he is bored with me, and I don't know what to do. Maybe its just that we rarely get a chance to be alone - with the kids home for the summer, etc. I guess what I am saying is that all this adds up to my having a loneliness inside, and I need to find ways to deal with that. I don't want MB to become a place where I go for emotional intimacy, and so I stop seeking it in my marriage.

It is hard to know how to best support someone here. I have tried to offer support but be careful about the way it is given. You sense my concern, you know I care.
Let me explain it this way - imagine that you leave this life, and you do indeed end up in Heaven. Imagine it to be much the same as life here only people are perfect. No infidelity, no dishonesty, no cheating, or theft. Now, bring these thoughts to your life here. If we want to be there, we learn to live that way when we are here. I imagine my self being there, I imagine the neighborhood I live in, I imagine my neighbors, and you are one of them. Do you see where I am coming from? How would we treat each other? If we begin to live that kind of life here, how do we help each other now? What kind of support do we give?
I struggle to live as HE wants me to live. I have many faults, need much work, but I have a vision of what I want to become, and will by his grace. Until then, I do the best I can, and help as I am able.

I support you in your approach, I want you to understand what I am trying to do. I become the person I wish for by my service, and he fills in what I lack. I hope this fills in things a little more from the other side, I think I hear what you are saying. I post with the intent to help, and you need to do what best serves your personal marriage goals.

I think that lack of time alone has a big part to play in things. I know you have spoken about it before, and how difficult it is. Also that he doesn't seem to understand how important it is to date you and romance you. This has made a big difference in our relationship. Dr Harley is right about it, and the rule of time works. I wish I had better suggestions for you on HOW to do it. I have always wanted to spend more time with her, and since I learned not to LB, and started to be nice to her, she is responding.

I also find that perhaps I still have a lot of anger with WS - I question my ability to help anyone on the boards right now - I see marriages where I couldn't in all conscience help someone stay married - I would advise them to get out! So that bothers me. I think I have learned something about myself, though, from being here and trying to post to others - I tend to say too much, and dump too much of my opinion all at once, instead of helping another person to find answers to their own questions. I think some of the best "veterans" are very gifted at asking short questions, and waiting for the answer, and going slow - I learn an awful lot from reading - maybe that's what I am doing now - learning by watching others. I know it has helped me in my communications with H - I don't "dump" on him anymore - I keep things short and sweet, and try to be patient about waiting for answers. So that's a big plus.

You think some things that you would not post. You are too thoughtful, and too careful. I worry most about your time constraints. Read what you said about the week off, and understand how much you needed that time. Until you get more help from H, I advise you to stay away until you get more help from H and your life is not so stressful. I think right now, it would just add to the stress, and be one more thing in a long list of tasks that never seems to get shorter.

I think if you really believe you would not be helpful that you ought to go back and read all the thank-you's from those you helped last year when you were on more. You are so good at looking at the problem, defining it, and giving options for the solution. Don't sell yourself short.

My last piece of news is that "buddy" has gone back to his home country - great news, that - he left last week - abandoned his religious vows and went. Somehow I was not surprised - last year, i said to a friend that the only thing consistent about "buddy" was the string of broken commitments behind him. He may still be in touch with H by e-mail, but at least there will be no more "personal" meetings - you know, those tete-a-tetes every week. I feel like God answered my prayers on that one.

To stay positive, I'll just say "GOOD" and leave the rest of it alone.

I am still praying. Wow this is long - I can be so long-winded sometimes!
I say to you what I said to Lisa. I have never read one of your posts that was too long. I think you said this time many of the things often left unsaid, and I thank you for the chance to get to know you even if only a little bit. Still praying on this end too.

I hope you are well, ss - you sound good - glad to hear your wife is NEARLY 100% - it takes a while - how hot is it there? We are in the high 90's with no air conditioning! My garden is overwhelming me with beans, potatoes, lettuce, and squash! And I've got leeks and beets to go through the winter - also some tomatoes and corn, but they're not ready yet. It's great not to have to buy vegetables!

Our garden took a big hit when it got up to abut 115 for a week straight the middle of July. Some of the plants are just now coming out of it, over 50 percent died. I get lots of green peppers, hot peppers, and starting to get a few tomatoes. Usually get tomatoes by early July, but too many died. It is great to not have to buy, and home grown taste better anyway. I find the kids eat them better when they plant them, and pick them. Our kids like stuff that many of their friends won't touch, and our doctor bills reflect it by being lower than most people that we know.

I am glad that at least we have air conditioning. I lived in Canada for a few years and once in Northern Alberta it got into the low 80's and everyone complained about the heat wave. 90 is more respectable. At least we don't have humidity to make it worse.

It is good to hear from you also, I talked about you with my W again before I came to do this post, and she wishes you well again. I don't have a direct quote for you, but I feel it is important to keep her up on who I talk to and what I am doing on MB. Sometimes I wish she would post, I asked her a time or two to speak to you, (last year) because she was so good about waiting for me to wake up for all those years, but she declines and says she will take care of the kids, and I can do MB. (just a nice way of saying no.)

W called down and said it's time to quit for tonight. I'll see you later. I wanted to say more about your anger, and encourage you, but I have faith that you will do well with, or without me.

When you have the anger, and the bad feelings, remember that you have neighbors that care, and you can always holler over the back fence and we'll help.

SS

I didn't get a chance to edit this as I usually try to, so if there are errors, forgive.

Hello LIR, I wanted to let you know that I applaud you and congratulate you the great strides you have made in your marriage!

Thank-you for sharing your heartwarming story of growth and recovery.

Hi terr - thanks so much for that - I do feel we have come a long way, but like I was saying, a lot of things are still the same - I am still scared of my H, still scared to ask him to talk about emotional issues, and about "difficult" subjects - he has shown his anger on a couple of occasions these past four months that show that he still faces the same challenge - getting angry, and taking his frustration out on me, or wanting someone to blame if he doesn't get exactly what he wants. I have, though, learned not to respond with anger when he is like this - before I would have thought that was not defending myself. Now I walk away, and he gets nothing from me - and I don't talk to him again until I feel able to talk to him and be able to control my own anger. On these occasions, I have been able to talk to him afterwards and say that I don't like "being yelled at - being blamed for things that are not my fault" and he has apologized. I think that this problem is reducing - but in some ways, its too early to tell - only time over a period of months and years will be able to tell if he has changed. But what is important, I think is that *I* have changed. I'm not going to let this R I have with him destroy me, and turn me into something I don't want to be. I am still struggling with this - but things are better. I keep up with your thread, and I know things are hard for you right now. I'll try to get over and post to you there because there were just a couple of things I thought of that I could offer.

hi ss -

well, I didn't take the boys to cricket - it was too hot to be sitting out in the hot sun for hours. They didn't ask on the day and haven't mentioned it, so I will mention to H that I thought it would be nice for him to take them to their first live cricket match.

I think it always good to communicate feelings like this to bring us closer together. I believe just the act of you telling your feelings about it will build good will between the two of you. Yes, I agree. I'll try to word it in the right way - that always seems to be the hard part.
Hmmmm, I wonder if his flying back later is his being a penny pincher, or if - because he knows you worry about money he is trying to save to please you. This is another chance to build. You could say something like:
" I am so glad you are home, I admit I had mixed feelings about your staying another day. I wanted you home because I missed you, but I am proud that you thought enough to save money because that is important too." Yes, this is possible. I felt good about his decision to come home today (instead of Wednesday) because we actually did POJA (without him being aware of it) on that one.

It started with him trying to find a cheap flight, and couldn't because all the prices had gone up overnight (sometimes they go back down again if you wait). He got angry and blamed this on me - he said I had taken too long to let him know what was happening with OS that week (did OS want to go with him, or stay here in other words). I said that was not true - that he had asked me to sort out with OS what he wanted to do the week before, and we had put the options to OS, who had decided that he wanted to stay here and go to cricket camp - I let him know on the day and that was a week ago, so why was he only now trying to book his tickets? (This was the old H - mad about something and taking it out on me, blaming me so he could have someone to yell at). He stormed around, still angry. I walked away. He left the room. After awhile I followed him (I'm not sure I should have done this - at the time, after I was there and trying to talk to him, I thought, I don't need to be doing this, working hard to change his mind, i actually shouldn't be rewarding him with any contact with me at all when he is like this, so I stopped at that point and left - I learned a lesson there). But anyway, I did follow him and I stood quietly for a minute, then I said "I told you what OS plans were last week, and if you are having trouble booking tickets now, its nothing to do with me, so please can you take responsibility for your own mistakes and not blame me for you procrastinating on this."

H was mad, and didn't talk to me for awhile, but he called "auntie" - remember her? his older woman friend - later, and after talking to her, he was all sweet again with me. I asked him later that evening what had happened to change his mood from being angry to being OK with me again, and he said "nothing" - "I don't know - I just feel different". This is an example of how I can't tell whether his R with "auntie" is a good influence on our R, or a bad one. Did he turn to her, and she calmed him down? What did he talk to her about? Why was he happy again after talking to her? When he replied "nothing" - does that mean he really doesn't know how his mood changed, or that he is actively hiding something? Did just the act of talking to her make him feel happy again? In other words, does a conversation with her suck intimacy out of our R, or does it help him in his R with me? I honestly cannot tell.

Then, after that, he went back to looking for flights. A few days later, he said he had found a flight - the prices had gone down again, but he could come back Tues, or Mon - Monday's flight would cost £10 more. I said why don't you come back Monday, its not that much more, and the boys (and me) would be happy to see you, even if its only one day sooner. He and I were both happy with that. Here we are today, and I'm about to go get him - actually glad that the flight is coming in so late, because it won't be so hot!

Admiration is important to him, find ways to give it that you can live with. Ohhh, I need constant reminding of this!!!!

I say again, you probably don't need to hear lots of this from me, but you know how I am. That's quite alright, ss - you just go on being yourself!!

About my up and down feelings - I don't know if you have known this for a long time, and not communicated it yes, that's right, I have just chosen not to talk about it - trying not to dwell in the negative.

In your case, where you have chosen to stay away from confrontation, and continue to love him, and to try, I think you are going about it the right way. I think I mention it so you will understand that you have support with it.
Thank you, ss - I think you know where I am coming from, from all the conversations you have had with your wife - I just wish my H could "get it" like you have.

Remember that my W and I were a year and a half in recovery and we had no A to make things worse. It is the same with most of life, we learn line upon line, precept upon precept. One of my worries, and I have stated it before, is that one day you would say " I can't keep doing this, I am finished." I don't worry about that as much, because I see reserves of strength. Remember too that you still have plan B should you ever need it. I believe he would be hard pressed to find someone that could ever meet his needs as you do. I believe that to be a flat statement of fact, something that you need to hear from a neutral third party.

It helps to hear this. I have to admit that sometimes, lately, I don't feel so much like quitting "in person", but there are times when my spirit feels dead - those times come over me when I start dwelling on his "privacy" issue and whether or not he has other women friends that I might not even know about - that's when I think "I can't go on like this forever" - when I am like that, I then try to pick myself up by telling myself I am going to be the person I want to be - the best person I can be - and if he doesn't appreciate it, there will be someone who will someday - I know that I have to be prepared for plan B if I have to do it someday.

If he does bring it up, you should tell him your feelings honestly. " In the past, I felt neglected because I watched the children while you spent time with friends, etc, etc. . I didn't want that to happen again, so I excused myself from going."I have said that, but he gets angry - he doesn't understand why I don't enjoy just being with friends - he hasn't seen that I do all the childcare. Also, that those times have passed for our family holidays. This year, he IS going to do a family holiday with us - next week, for a few days - so that is a BIG improvement.

When you express your feelings please always be prepared to say " I am just expressing my feelings to you so you can better understand me, and help me, please don't feel I am attacking you, or trying to make you feel bad, because I am just trying to learn how to better communicate with you." Yes, I do do this - I do say it this way, but he usually still gets mad first. Last week, I got frustrated with the state of our house - we have done building works on our house, and the upstairs is really only half-finished. We need to finish the work which means expanding the boys bedroom and putting in an upstairs bathroom. We started the work in 1999 - finished the loft bedroom (ours) in Jan 2000. Since then, nada. Everything has been this way for three years now - a lot of other wives would have gone ballistic and been divorced by now. We own this house outright which is now worth £150,000, so if we wanted to borrow the £5,000 it would take to finish it, that would not be a problem. But no, H will NOT, I repeat NOT borrow money, he has to save it all and pay in cash. We could have finished this house, sold it and made a nice profit by now. Anyway, it is SOOO difficult to live like this, with things in cardboard boxes, and nowhere to put anything and the boys getting one year older and one more year older again, and needing more room. The other day, I took the boys to task for not picking up after themselves and went upstairs saying "I HATE dealing with this house - its really getting to me!" He got mad - "That's not helpful." "I'm only expressing how I feel - that its very frustrating!" Speaking in a contemptuous tone, he says "I can't talk to you if you're just going to yell - go away, just go away if you're going to be like this." I leave him alone for awhile. After awhile, he moves into the other room, and I start to talk to him from the safety of the room he has just been in - I figured that way, he would not feel boxed into having to stay in the same room with me - he could get away if he wanted. So I said "You know, I was not criticizing YOU, I was only expressing my frustration with the situation." His voice comes from the other room "But its the same thing, isn't it?" "No, it isn't - I know that you have had two builders in to get estimates on finishing the work, so I know you are doing something about it, its just that I get very frustrated sometimes and I was only saying how *I* feel. You don't have to take it personally. I'm sorry if it sounded like that to you." He came back in the room and stood in the doorway. "Don't you see how I could get upset at that?" "yes, but I didn't mean it that way" - then I said "You know, when you come home with work frustrations, or if you aren't feeling well, I don't respond to you with "That isn't helpful, just buck up and stop complaining, and GO AWAY if you are just going to complain to me! I listen to you. And you know, all I really wanted was to hear you say - honey, I appreciate how patient you have been with this, and I know how hard it is to live with this." He rushed into the room, laughing at himself and gave me a big kiss and said "Honey, I do appreciate how patient you have been - there is that better?" We both laughed. Is this called training your man?

You're right about the body/mind - that's exactly it - I need both to be healthy together.
I do know that you would never be happy if you didn't try. I believe the line you are looking for in the future goes something like this:
"Well done my good and faithful servant. Thou hast been faithful in a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things. Enter thou into the rest of thy Lord." This is really it. I don't feel like I can give up until I have done all I can. And I guess I am not done yet doing all I can.

Since you have slowed down posting, the bad thoughts thing has been on my mine when I think about you. I have prayed a lot about that for you. Remember that we all face it. We have a real enemy that makes it worse as much as we let them. As good as my marriage is now, I still face this one just as you do. In fact, these things are true, and you know they are true. The bad things you think are true, and that is why they are so hard to cope with.Yes, I think you are right to still pray for me. I could be in a very vulnerable place right now - thank you for still thinking of me.

I hang on to this one:
"......and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors."

I feel I need forgiveness as much as any man, and I know I need to forgive my W.
Forgiveness is the hardest thing in the world. I have something written down about this which I will try to dig out for you.

The plain fact is that she does things wrong.
This really made me laugh. I'm sure she does! And it must be so frustrating, especially if she does things wrong more than once. But the thing is, the way I look at it is, are they simple mistakes - like breaking things (guilty), or forgetting to lock the car when you leave it on the street overnight (guilty), forgetting to lock the gate, when H's bicycle is just inside and could have got stolen (guilty), forgetting about food in the fridge and letting it go bad (guilty), washing his dress waistcoat and having the buttons rust (guilty), breaking his glasses by stepping on them because they were left on the floor by his side of the bed (guilty). To me, these things are all accidental - I don't deliberately forget or be deliberately neglectful - I am just SOOO busy, its hard for me to remember everything and do everything right. I feel like I would have to be totally perfect and never make a mistake in order to please my H, sometimes - although he is getting a lot better about not getting mad at these kinds of things - he makes mistakes, too and when he does, I just smile at him!!!

I try and improve me, because I won't be judged for her sins, only for mine. I know that is not a cure, but it is a band-aid. Perhaps it can protect the wound long enough for long term healing to take place. Sins is a heavy word - so you are not just talking about simple mistakes.

I support you in your approach, I want you to understand what I am trying to do. I become the person I wish for by my service, and he fills in what I lack. I hope this fills in things a little more from the other side, I think I hear what you are saying. I post with the intent to help, and you need to do what best serves your personal marriage goals. I understand what you are saying, and I want you to know that I appreciate your insights because of where you are coming from. You do help.

I think that lack of time alone has a big part to play in things. I know you have spoken about it before, and how difficult it is. Also that he doesn't seem to understand how important it is to date you and romance you. This has made a big difference in our relationship. Dr Harley is right about it, and the rule of time works. I wish I had better suggestions for you on HOW to do it. I have always wanted to spend more time with her, and since I learned not to LB, and started to be nice to her, she is responding.
Yes, you are right - and I take your point. You know, I have also been thinking - most people come to MB to discuss how to deal with their spouses sins and faults- and we focus on infidelity, but the marriage vows are to "love, honour and cherish" - those vows can be broken by both parties in just as profound a way as the more common "unfaithfulness" and in a way, they hurt more - I think we always need to ask ourselves if our actions are honouring our spouse and cherishing our spouse - if we honour and cherish them, that goes a long way towards creating love "in action".

You think some things that you would not post. You are too thoughtful, and too careful.That's actually true - I am worried about saying something that would be hurtful.

When you have the anger, and the bad feelings, remember that you have neighbors that care, and you can always holler over the back fence and we'll help. OK! I can holler pretty loud if I have to!

Wow - 115 is really hot! I remember being in Phoenix once when it was 114 - like walking around inside a fan-heated oven. Poor plants - that really worries me - its the hot wind that is dehydrating, too - wind does not cool plants, it dries them out even more, even when its cool. I wonder why the half of your plants that survived did? What made them strong enough to weather that heat, but the others failed?

Cooler here today, and we had a thunderstorm this am which dropped some rain - hope this will break soon.

Gotta go - thanks so much for listening. Could be a few days before I check in.

Take care,
LIR

You made some really good points, and you taught me something (made me think, and it's good for me.) I wish I had time to respond in detail, but I do not tonight. Close to bedtime for Kids, and we usually read a little from the bible just before they go to bed.

Remember when times are hard, and things feel like they are caveing in on you that staying is your choice. You stayed because of who, and what you are. You could have made another choice, even though it would have been hard, you could have made it work, and I think you know that. You stayed, and you are working on things because you felt like it was the best choice. I also believe that it is the best choice.

Sometimes we don't get tdo have things like we want them. Sometimes we have to make the best of a difficult situation.

I have said this before, and I hope you don't mind me repeating - remember when Christ went into the garden. He asked that the cup might be taken away, but it was not, and he finished his work. You asked that it might be taken from you but it has was not for you either. You are taking your turn, and I believe you will one day say the same, that your's is finished too.

"IN this world you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have over come the world."

I hope this helps. We are all in this together, and ought to help when we can. I have great faith in you. I care.

SS

Sometimes I get the feeling to post but nothing comes to mind to say. I never know if I ought to worry about that when it happens.

I keep want to come back and say some things, perhpas one of these days I will even get to it.

You OK?

SS

Arrrrgh! - I just lost a long post! And I really needed to post that one, too -

Both boys are home and want to go to the swimming pool - so I can't type it all again.

I am kind of up and down, but I'm sure I will be OK. The most important thing is to ask your prayers, if anyone reads this, for the daughter, and the families of all involved, of one of our oldest, closest friends - she's a lovely girl and I can't imagine anything like this happening to her - but this just rams home everything I have read on this forum - how important it is to try to help a BS to try to stay in control of their emotions, and how desperate marriage problems can get - how much people need real help. I found the story on www.santacruzsentinel.com - top story on 21 Aug, Thurs - murder/suicide. Our friend's daughter left her husband about 6 months ago, then started going out with his friend - On Wed, her estranged H went and shot and killed the friend, then killed himself. This just happened and I don't know ANY details - the online story told me more than my H could tell me, after talking to our friend (the wife's father) - but H and I are both shocked. You hear about these kinds of things happening, but not to people you know. Please pray for them.

Thank you all and God's blessing on everyone here.

LIR