Dear 4give,

Thank you for coming in to post to me. My H and I are both Catholics and my H's professional work is within the Church, as a musician. My H and I are both converts, as well, so our faith is our own choice, and not something we were born into. I feel bewildered by my H's behaviour, when for as long as I have known him, his primary interest has been Catholic teaching. I don't understand how his behaviour, thoughts and feelings can be so opposite to what he publicly (and loudly) proclaims. Exploding at people is the exact opposite of turning the other cheek, showing patience and goodwill towards your fellow human being, even if you think they are wrong, and even if they are rude to you. The Bible says to take the plank out of your own eye before you try to pick the splinter out of another's, so I am trying to look at myself objectively. I used to react to H's behaviour towards me very angrily - I would shout back at him to show that I was "strong" and he "couldn't push me around". That was useless and only gave him justification for saying that I was the one with an anger problem. Now when he rages, I don't answer, or if I do, I say it quietly and without any aggression. Much of the time that he is shouting, I am simply watching him quietly while he rages. The interesting thing is that since I have learned to control myself and not give into my own anger back at him - I no longer feel angry at him when he is raging. But what I do feel is threatened. I feel frightened. Just J points out that rage is a "fight or flight" mechanism, and now that I no longer fight back, I feel the "flight" desire really strongly. I know that my H is raging because HE feels threatened - threatened emotionally, and he attacks me because he feels I am attacking him. But what arouses my H to attack when he feels threatened can be ordinary things for other people. When my H feels threatened, he would say that looking at him would be provocation. Saying anything, no matter how quietly or reasonably he also considers provocation. Physical movement he can consider provocation. For example, before he exploded, I had gone into the bathroom with him to talk to him. Our bathroom is off our kitchen, and he went in there to shave. Its a small room, but its two rooms away from where YS was watching television and I could close two doors between us and YS if I wanted to talk to H. I wasn't being aggressive, I just wanted to talk to my H privately where our son couldn't overhear, and I spoke quietly when I asked him, reasonably, why he was getting so angry. While he was raging, he screamed at me that I had "burst in on him", as if I had blasted in after him, yelling. It's that twisting of the truth that really worries me. He represents my actions to other people in this same inflated way. One day during the summer, he got annoyed with me and said I had been "yelling at him all morning". I had not. I had got mildly annoyed about one thing, which I had expressed (I think it was that my foot hurt) and hadn't even raised my voice, nor had I even been annoyed with him. He misinterprets me and then misrepresents me.

Rage usually comes from anger, resentment and unforgiveness.
I think the anger my H feels is really to do with his parents.
He feels justified to feel this anger. He needs to learn that he isn't justified. He probably has lots of stuff from his childhood that he can find to justify his anger as well as why he is using you as a scapegoat and the brunt of it.
You have hit the nail on the head. Justification is what consumes my H. He does have a lot of reason to be angry with his parents. In my opinion, he hasn't freed himself from their yoke, and his resentment and suppressed anger is eating him alive. I have always thought that he uses me as his whipping boy. In the first years of our marriage, I couldn't believe he was like that, or that that was what was actually happening. I couldn't reconcile the fact that he had made me his wife and then could turn around and be so openly spiteful and unfair. I fought back ferociously at first. My pride was wounded, but also my love for him. I admired my H enormously, and I loved him. I knew that his parents were emotionally cruel to him and didn't appreciate his talent. I was entirely on his side. When I got depressed, I blamed myself. Deep inside me, though, resentment started to fester and grow. The awful thing has been that I can understand something of what he feels because I now feel it too - I can understand why he feels the way he does, because he has done to me what his parents did to him
.
He somehow feels safe or powerful in using you in this way. I think that's right. But I don't know what it is that allows him to feel that way. Is it because we are Catholics and he thinks he can "get away with it" on some level, because he knows divorce is against my principles? Or is it because I have allowed him to get away with it by not walking out on him the first time? And by continuing to stay? I just don't know.

Thank you for pointing me in the direction of the fhu.com website. I have looked at it and will look in more depth - I'm sure it could be helpful, but I have tried to get my H to look at things and he flat-out states that he is not interested. He doesn't want to read any books, or get involved in any websites, period. He's glad if it helps me, since I am the one with the problems.

H is away tonight on a business trip, so I am trying to get back to all the posts while I have the chance.

I don't really know what to do anymore. He is all happy again - in fact, he seems all relaxed now - totally normal. I do think he is thinking about what happened, though. He keeps hugging me. We have a friend visiting from overseas until Saturday - maybe next week we will get a chance to talk a little.

I think for myself, I just have to keep trying to go on with my own life in a positive way. That's very hard sometimes. Deep inside, I feel like my life is a lie. I walk down the street and look at other people's faces and wonder what they are thinking and feeling - some of them look so open and happy, and I feel like there is an invisible wall between me and them. I think they have husbands or boyfriends they can trust not to hurt them, while I am always fearing the future. I am afraid of what might happen to me someday. I'm not trying to sound dramatic. It could be just another blow-up like what happened on Saturday, but those seem to really knock all the zest for life out of me. If I separated from my H, I can't see myself ever trusting another man again.

I appreciate your trying to point me in the direction of something that could help us both. I'm definitely going to go over the site in detail, and I will try to get my H to look at it.

Thanks again.
LIR

Hi J, thanks for coming in here - I think you gave me some valuable insights. I'm trying to get back to every point - I'm sorry it has taken a while.

Lady, I have two thoughts about your husband. The first thing is that it's been nine months since you saw this kind of behavior. That suggests to me that he HAS changed. Oh, sure, you've been much more careful to be respectful of him and all that jazz.
Well, I wish that this were true. But I'm beginning to think my H has a sort of 6 month cycle, and even though its been awhile, I can't judge that he's changed just because it has been awhile. I have to look for the positive changes. In that, I see a return to being affectionate. I see him making effort to by physically tender in a non-sexual way. I see him making an effort to contribute around the house. I see some attempt on his part to try to communicate with me. But I don't see a lot of the things that I feel I need. I need to talk about us, and about how we relate to each other, I need to talk about communication and I need to talk about this anger. I am afraid of my H, and I need to talk through what happened to us. I don't have any confidence in my H. I don't trust him, and if he doesn't think he ever did, or does anything wrong, then how do I know he will protect our relationship, or me, in the future? I don't feel like there is any commitment on his part to protect either me or our relationship.

Still, he's surely made some tremendous changes so that the other hundred times when something annoying happened, it didn't turn into the display you saw the other night.Well, maybe. But he DOES get angry a lot - he fusses and fumes a lot - every day - about little things, and about other people - he always seems to be upset, to be carrying some kind of grudge against someone. I get real tired of listening to this. He seems to have two moods - bit**ing about stuff, and then being sort of theatrically joking - making the boys laugh, raising everyone's spirits, as if it's his job to keep everybody happy. With those words just out of my mouth, I can just see him with his parents - "it's his job to keep everybody happy" - that's the role he energetically plays when he is with his parents, his way of coping with their peculiar brand of misery. I just think my H is so screwed up by his upbringing, that he is emotionally stuck "relating" to everyone as if they were his parents standing there. And he's either frantically trying to keep the mood light, or reacting with anger.

The second thing I see is that he's not fully (maybe not at all) learned to deal with the hurts that are causing his anger. I don't know what those hurts are, but I will say that a reaction like his indicates that he's feeling some terribly difficult things right now and he needs to find ways to deal with them. Yes, the anger, and not just that. Anger is a "fight or flight" preparation in response to a threat of some kind. It happens when someone feels that their existence is in danger. Knowing my H's parents as I do, I think his very spirit is in danger of annhialation whenever he is around them. It's not surprising to me that he is entrenched in feeling threatened. When he is raging, I feel so threatened and shocked myself, that I forget that he is raging because he feels threatened, so thank you for pointing that out to me.

I don't know what's making your husband feel that way. I do know that he's got to find it and address it. He's afraid. Terribly afraid. Probably he's afraid that he's not loved and nurtured and cared-for, because that's what most everyone is afraid of on some level.
I know that, and I think I have some idea of why he feels that way, but I can't help him. I have loved, nurtured and cared for him. He has been loved and nurtured by other people besides me. He hasn't returned love for love. With me he has returned hate and rage for love. I think he is afraid of loving. The "love" his parents showed for him means possession and dominance and trespassing all boundaries. I sometimes think it was when I became a mother that his fears started brewing up - as soon as I became a mother, I melded somehow into the bigger role of Mother, and he can't seem to divorce me in my role of mother from his own domineering and cruel mother.

So what can you do? Well, return peace for anger. Return love for expressions of hatred. I try, but I'm running out of steam. I just feel emotionally beaten down.

I wish you had gotten out of the situation when you realized that your gentleness was not getting through to him. I am so sorry that YS had to see and hear the things that your husband was doing. I have been that little child watching a fight between my parents, and I know how terrifying it is.

Next time, if I could suggest something, say, gently, "H, I love you. You are hurting right now and I understand that. I'm going to take YS for a drive while you calm down." And then go. Even if he screams at you all the way out the door, he's got to learn to deal with that stuff himself.

I take your point, but I have tried this, and like I said before, he came out to the car and dragged YS back inside, then physically assaulted me. I will not run the risk of YS getting physically caught between us.

He was punishing you in order to make himself feel better. He probably -did- feel better, sort of, afterwards. And yet, the emotions are still there, not transformed from anger and hurt into love.
I think he does feel better - he blew off a lot of steam, so the tension is released for him. He is visibly happier and more relaxed. Deep inside him, though, he is ashamed - the price he pays for blowing up at me is more shame. Its so sad, because its shame that feeds the rage.

Posting to others helps me sometimes to work things out in myself. I'm just going to say that I feel a total failure at this relationship. I'm not the person or the personality who is the right kind of person to deal with my H's problems. I have my own problems and I don't think we are good for each other. I don't feel I have the skills or strength to be helpful to my husband in the way that he needs. I am willing to acknowledge that I am a failure at this. It hardly even makes me feel sad anymore. Part of me just wants to see the boys get further towards adulthood, and I will do everything I can do nurture my own income-generating potential, and then, when I'm ready, and I think the time has come, I'll just leave. I can't live the rest of my life like a dead person inside, and I no longer have feelings of love for my H. I think I lost those a long time ago and none of this is helping to restore my feelings of love for him. I am trying only based on my commitment to try, but I feel like its all a lie. I smile at him and pretend to be enjoying myself, but I am only trying to "keep the peace".

OK, that sounds pretty negative, but I'm trying to be ruthlessly honest here. My sense of humour is genuinely nil at this point.

H is away for two days - coming back tomorrow night. He left his backpack here accidentally, with wallet, credit cards, mobile, everything. I went through his mobile and checked all the messages - there is nothing there to indicate any contact with another woman, so maybe he is "clean". He is still in touch with "aunty" though, on his mobile - ss and Estes, you know who I'm talking about. I have mixed feelings about that again.

On Sunday, OS got sick with a tummy bug and had to come home from school - spent yesterday at home, and we took him back this AM. YS is still well, and I had a good day with him. I stopped at a friend's house for tea after school, then dropped back by OS boarding house to see how he was doing, and then came home, I made a nice dinner for YS and I, we watched Harry Potter on video, and spent time together painting his model Roman soldiers. YS went to bed happy although he said he missed Daddy. YS has not mentioned the other night.

Well, I have to go now - its past midnight and I have to get up at 6am - will try to get back on computer sometime tomorrow, but may not be able to.

Thank you again, J, I appreciate you taking the time.
LIR

Hi Spacecase!

Thanks for the hug - were you wearing the Hawaiian shirt when you hugged me? Boy, that makes me smile to think of it! I hope you are well...let us know sometime, if you'd like to. Thanks for looking in. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

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ss - ready whenever you are for that 2x4 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

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Estes - You bring up so many good points. I have to come back to your post later, because its so late here. I talked to my mom tonight - she's soldiering on - taking a Davitron for pain every 4 hours - but in good spirits. My friend William is about to start an aggressive course of chemotherapy - I asked my mom to pray for him, and she said she WOULD, with gusto! She reminded me that my aunt survived lung cancer and beat it, when we all thought there was no hope at all for her - she is in complete remission and is here 5 years after we thought she was definitely dying. So its never over until the fat lady sings!

God bless you all, I have to go to bed now.
lots of love,
LIR

Hi LIR,
SS has not been entirely well, this last week, but I absolutely hate not getting back when I say I will. Please forgive me. (later edit,) I just pushed the post button, and see you have been here again, PLEASE accept my apology for being later than I said I would.)

You have some really good posts here, and they covered the "what could LIR do to make things better" side really well. You and I talked through that side quite a bit last year, and I am not really
going to discuss it again in detail right now.

I am reading through these last few days of posts all over again. You have gotten very good at trying to do the right thing, and most of the time actually doing it. It would be well to review on this web site about the giver and the taker. I feel you need to be doing things for you right along, as well as things for your family, and for your H. I believe you leave those things for last, and if there is no time, then your things never get done. Giving is good, it is very good - but if your own psychical, emotional, and spiritual health suffers, then you can't give properly. So, I think you need to look after you as well, or better than you look after H, sons, home and hearth. This may mean blocking out time monthly or weekly (daily would be nice, but I know the world you live in,) and doing things you simply WANT to do, not things you need to do. That is part of your emotional, and spiritual health, and you ignore it to your peril. We have discussed our example in Christ - and he seemed to give with no rest, but he knew what he could do, and what he could not do, and on at least one occasion he slept while they rowed the boat. Do you ever sleep, or are you always rowing?

We don't always know what we can do, and we do well to rest when our body or our mind bids us rest. I think this experience you tell about is a sign that you need rest. Please understand that I don't believe you could have changed him if you had been more alert, or more rested. I do believe when you get the rest or diversion you need, that you are better able to stand the pain, and you recover more quickly. (I also understand that it would be much better to end the cycle of abuse than try to learn to cope with it.) I wish you could afford to fly to see your mother while she is still in fairly good health (at least, I don't think she will go this week.) It would do a lot for your ability to cope at home if you had two weeks away right about now. I do not know what you can or cannot do, and if you cannot rest I pray for continued strength. Sometimes we stand as long as we can stand, and after having done all, we stand. Sometimes there is no other way, but please search and see if you can find a way to do some things for you.

That will help you cope as long as you still need to cope, it will give you more joy along side the pain, and it will renew your spirit when you get down. It will not change the situation under which you live - and I do believe that needs changing. I do agree with you about that.

What would be really fun would be to hit him on the head with a cast iron frying pan, and when he comes to, say: "well, you have got to learn not to push my buttons." All in fun here, but it hardly ever works in real life. Do I need to say how sick it makes me feel that he says that? You have already studied abuse, and you know better, but what can be done about it - that's the real question that needs an answer.

Well, lets leave this and go on to some other things for a while. - Oh, lets see, my clock says I need to go home from work now, lest my W start to worry about me. I will try and take this up at home, but if not, again tomorrow.

Hi Estes, (ss smiles and waves,) good to hear from you, but sorry things are not better with son. YOU sound pretty good.

I'll be back later tonight, or tomorrow. I feel pretty tired tonight, so we'll see how it goes after I get home.

SS

<small>[ November 25, 2003, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Hi again,
I left work about 6, and now it is about 9:30. Wouldn't it be nice to be in bed all warm in the down comforter we put took out of storage Saturday and put back on the bed.

The garden froze hard Saturday night - it went from being in the 40's at night to about 20 and all the tomatoes are gone except for a couple that I covered with plastic. They are about half gone. The beets, turnips, and spinach are still doing OK, but they usually go through the winter, and in fact, were just planted in late Sept.

Now, where were we? Oh, we talked about hitting him on the head with a frying pan. I counsel against it, because it may damage a perfectly good pan. Actually, LIR's H, if you read this, I apologize for giving others a laugh at your expense. If I ever visit, you can hit me with the pan, and as my W always said I was hard headed, it probably won't do too much damage.


I feel so low this morning. Just sad. I also thought H had "changed" - that at least he had realized that there were things he could do better, and that he was trying to do better. He has been more communicative, at least he appeared to be so, he has been more affectionate (but sex still feels "strange"), just last week he was really encouraging me to get started on my library degree, saying that we had the money and that we could afford it (I have to admit that I wondered why he was being so nice - there's always the fear that he is being "good" because he has something to hide and is feeling guilty about it).

Hmmm. Where to start. I think all of us ought to get together some evening and talk. You can all come to our house, I would even cook dinner unless there were over about 15, then I would have you all bring something. The house is small, but that just makes it cozy.

Do we really know if he has changed? If he has not, it looks as though he is trying to change. I mostly changed by pretending I was better than I was, and doing it until it stuck. It was awkward when it did not. - for me, for my W, it was as you describe your feelings. She didn't deserve that, and neither do you, but what to do?

And by the way, I don't think you need a 2x4. You need understanding, and compassion, and suggestions, and help. The people who posted love you and want to help. Luckily the person they are posting to is able to understand and accept it as such. Another thing you need is time to think. When you get it, you do really well. It is hard to think properly when you are afraid. It colors your thought processes and makes it hard to see clearly. I don't blame you for that. Did I get sidetracked again? Shoot, go ahead and laugh, it seems to help me too.

If I were you, I would snoop. If nothing is going on, you know he really is trying, and even changing a little. If there is OW, then it makes your decision easier. As was said, you don't have to file for D, but he needs a reason to think. I wish we could record his behavior and play it back for him - but without outside control, he may refuse to listen or learn from it. (outside control meaning someone that could get him to sit still and listen.) It is like an alcoholic, they don't get treatment until they accept they have a problem, and want help. Sometimes they loose all that is dear to them. Are you willing to put that kind of pressure on him? Are you willing to leave and never come back if there is no change?
You don't need to answer that to us, but it is in your mind and needs to be there whenever you consider your options. Up to now, you have always come back and wanted to work on it, but you and I both know that he may never change, or it may take something big like you leaving for him to start to see. Isn't that one of the things that makes it so hard, that you don't know?

Even the day before, he had shown signs of being caring about my feelings - on Friday when I called my mom, she said she is having pain in her kidney and my sister said they were trying to get in to see the doctor...................... Anyway, I tried to tell H about this conv I had had with my sister, and he was OK, but busy with the computer, didn't stop working, looking at the computer screen while I talked, just saying "yeah, well...I guess that's all you can do...at least you can talk to your sister..", not stopping what he was doing to look at me. This is another thing H does - refuses to stop his own work and give me his undivided attention. I guess the message I'm supposed to get is "I'm a busy man with a lot of work to do, but I'm fitting you in here as best I can, you should be grateful I'm listening to you with one ear and not complain". Finally I gave up and went away.

This is the part I was always good at -
He has a one track mind. (and I don't mean he only thinks about Se#.) I mean he only thinks about one thing at a time. He had already given his attention to the computer, and it takes awhile to get it back and give it to something else. Because he is a lot like me, I bet he finally realized what happened, and went to make amends. If he is as slow as I am (you thought I was sharp, didn't you - but you should talk to my W) it finally dawned on him and he figured out that if he loved you, he really ought to act more like it, and so he went to find you.


In a couple of minutes, he followed me down the stairs, and caught up with me, took me in his arms and hugged me, saying "I'm really sorry about your mom, but its a good thing you can talk to your sister, and if you need to go see her, we'll work it out." I cried for a little while and he held me.

I believe if he really didn't care, he would not have come to you. It seems that he does care. It is looking to me like we have someone that has a problem and he doesn't realize the scope of it. Like an alcoholic or an addict. Exactly like that. He's good when he's sober, but when drunk, watch out.


You know, its that hurts the most. That he could do that the day before he exploded at me. I feel led up the garden path. One day he shows that he can be caring, the next day he explodes in my face.

Oh, I wish we had a dollar for every time my W said that. I think we could pay all our debt and retire. Don't addicts love their families? When they sober up and realize what they have done, are they not sorry? Can't they be caring one day and drunk the next?

I am not saying you shouldn't be hurt - I am trying to put this in perspective so you can decide how you want to deal with it.

But the thing about the explosion - there's part of me that - well, I have picking up the signs that H is brewing up for a long time - I've lived with H for a long time, and I think, at least I think, maybe its really all in my head and I'm just super-sensitive, that he brews up over a period of months - little things get to him, and he complains, his level of agitation rises about little things - he gets emotionally agitated about stuff - about politics, about work, about other people, about little stuff - about clutter around the house, about accidents that happen, about the kids making mess, about paint fumes or dust (he has asthma), about other people being rude to him (like the Immigration officer) - and whenever the opportunity arises, he explodes at this other people - the Immigration officer, the Anglian Home Improvements telephone sales, or someone on the street who cuts him off in the car. He is always bewildered at why strangers are rude to him. The pattern is that I notice this, and finally I can't stand it anymore and I say something, I think because I get anxious that he is being too agitated with the boys. Exploding at me last night was just exactly what he wanted to do - explode at someone big time. I think H is a rageaholic - not an alcoholic, but a rageaholic.

It sounds like you are correct. Now, what do you want to do about it? -

My W just called me upstairs and said it is time to get ready for bed. Now the clock says 10:22.

I want to say again, you are not crazy. I can read more of what you said from here, though I can't get to it yet.
I remember something from scripture, though I am not sure where it's from. Something about the wrath of God will be on those that "make a man an offender for a word." The point is that all of us mis-speak sometimes, and if we pounce on someone that does make an honest mistake, we are the one at fault. He does that, doesn't he. Shoot, so many thoughts, and no time. I'll try and pick this up in the morning ( and that means before noon my time - and I hope that made you smile.) If I cannot, I'll get back as soon as possible.

Can I say in closing tonight that you are doing as well as anyone I have ever seen in this situation. If you need a little help from time to time are you any different than the rest of us? Don't we all?

That's all the 2x4 I can find right now, it will have to do. This will greet you in the morning, I hope your day goes well. Remember people care about you.

SS

Dear ss -

Just to let you know I have read your posts - thank you so much, and I will return to address some of your points. I can't post right now, and couldn't post today at work - I might be able to get to the computer tomorrow at work, but after that, it might not be until Sunday before I have a chance, so please don't think I've forgotten. Thanks for the support - I'm trying to put myself back together - its easier with H gone for a couple of days.

I hope you are OK - there is a really nasty flu going around, so you take care of yourself. I'm glad your wife is making sure you get your rest. Don't come back to MB until you feel up to it, and,,,have a really nice Thanksgiving.

Take care,
LIR

Got side tracked today when I found an office supply store going out of business. Got some tables, chairs, couch (hey, the couch was brand new for $150.00, and a good color so we bought it) and mostly shelves. Just got done hauling it back, cleaning the shelves (used) and installing them where we wanted them. (Most of this was for our retail store.) So, I am not much good on the forums today.

Oh, and the flu, I think that is what I had. I have been able to come to work, but it has affected my ability to think clearly. I felt like I was in the "fog" for about a week. I had only two speeds, slow, and stop.

I'll get back to you too, I am not finished with my main thought.

I hope you are happier for a few days at least.

Where do you go when everything falls in on you? What's your retreat? Has it been working for you this time around?

SS

<small>[ November 26, 2003, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

LIR, has your husband been in counseling for his anger and violent tendencies? He's got to learn new ways to deal with it. I believe and understand everything you say about why he's angry, and in the end, it just doesn't matter all that much to me.

Dragging YS back into the house and then assaulting you? Hon, the man is abusing you. And abusing your sons. Please, can we find a way to end this particular cycle?

Dear J -

We had a friend staying with us from Wed until yesterday - I haven't had a chance to post until now.
Thanks for being concerned about me.

To answer your questions - my H has had counselling with two different counselors, and I have no idea what he has talked about, aside from him coming home and saying that his counselor says that I shouldn't fight with him in front of the children. Obviously H tells his counselors that I pick fights with him in front of the children. He started his first round of counselling in April 02, after I asked him to leave - at the time he was involved in an EA with a 21 yr old girl, which I had discovered. His reaction to being discovered was angry and aggressive, not repentant. It was his reaction which brought the issue of his aggression to the surface. His aggression has always been an issue in our marriage, although the EAs made everything "worse". I told him he had to get into counselling to deal with his "bullying", which was destroying our life together. At the time, it seemed there was a chance for us. Unfortunately, counselling does not seem to have helped him. As far as I can tell, he has managed to avoid the issue. Also, unfortunately, he made a new male friend who he turned to for advice and support - this friend, as far as I can tell, turned him against me almost completely. It was during this time last year that he ended up trying to push me out the back door and wrestled me to the ground. Having said that, that incident followed on from a row, where I had finally lost my temper with him, and I had taken the cash I found he was hiding in his drawer and deposited in our joint bank account, where I thought it belonged. Still seeking will remember that - he did try to tell me not to do that, as I recall, but by then, I was fed up with being lied to. After that incident, I scheduled a MC session, which he went to with me, although he didn't want to go - he ended up storming out of that session in a rage, when I tried to bring up the issue of his anger. After that we slept apart for three months. We reconciled at Christmas last year, and he agreed to try joint counselling with my individual counselor whom I had been seeing for 6 months, and she gave him some sessions alone beforehand. He lasted three sessions, exploding at me after each one, and finally walked out in the middle of the third, accusing her of being biased against me. My strong feeling was that the stress of counselling was tipping him over the edge, and I was frightened, not just for me, but for his sanity. When I saw the letter he wrote to his own counselor describing that session, I realized that he saw things entirely differently from me, and that his view of me and of the whole situation in general was very distorted. My instinct was to just stop for the time being. That was March 03. My counselor stopped counselling with me the following week - she said she couldn't, because she would feel like she was "colluding" with me - I found that statement very disturbing and it still upsets me - colluding means to plot against - I asked her if it meant she could no longer be objective and she said yes. After that, I went to the Women's centre in the town where I live - I talked with a counselor there, and I know where I could go, and what my rights would be if I needed their services.

In addition to all of this, and prior to April 02, I went to a priest in June 01, when I discovered my H's first EA. He saw us together once and then set up a MC appt with his the superior of his monastic order, a trained MC - we saw him once. My H refused to talk through the whole session and we did not go back. When I discovered H's 2nd EA, I went to one of our parish priests (he's a rare married priest, BTW - ex-Anglican - there are a few MARRIED Catholic priests in Britain) and had several sessions with him. I invited my H to come with me, but he decided to see this priest on his own. After his session with him, he came home and exploded at me, then went outside and kicked things around in the garden. A few weeks after that, I asked him to leave, and he started counselling.

Since our last attempt at MC failed, he has been "good". He has not been violent to me, or aggressive. He has worked hard at being more affectionate and respectful of me. He made sure that we had a family holiday this year for the first time (a big EN for me), and he has been generous and kind with regards to the problems we are both having in handling our parents ill health.

I don't know what happened lately, but I have felt the tension rising in him for some time. It's clear that our problems won't go away and have to be dealt with - I just don't know how to do it any more.

I have to be honest and say that I am not blameless in this. In the past, feeling threatened and upset by H's treatment of me, I have done my share of yelling back at him, also in front of the children. And after I discovered EA no. 2, there was a scene in the kitchen, where we ended up in a fight, and I finished the fight by punching him in the eye.

Right after that I found MB, and from reading here, I could see that my behaviour was not helping me, just giving him justification for his own actions. Since then, I have purged myself of that kind of reaction to his temper and have been able to react to him calmly. However, I don't think my changes have made any difference. The good thing is that I feel that I am now in control of myself. He isn't able to push my buttons anymore and provoke me into yelling or violence. Looking back at our marriage as a whole, I am beginning to think that that was what he used to do - he would push all my buttons, and I would be the one who "acted out" the violence and anger he felt inside of him. Since I no longer do that, he is finally having to 'act out' his own stuff - it really lies with him.

A few weeks ago, he said he still saw his counselor and he wondered if I would like to go see someone. I am not happy with the counselling experiences I have had - none of them have helped me in any practical way - I don't need someone who sits silently and nods - I do NOT need to get stuff off my chest and work out my feelings. I know what my feelings are and I am not confused. I know what is my stuff and what is his.

I realize that I made mistakes the other night. I should not have said anything about him "painting in a white shirt'. I should not have followed him into the bathroom to "talk about it". I should not have asked him why he was so angry when I could see that he was angry. I should have walked away and let the whole situation simmer down. I certainly should not have moved the conversation on to him and his anger and then blamed him for walking out on four different chances at marriage counselling (even though he has). I realize that these were all my mistakes (that's why I was expecting the 2x4 from ss).

But even if I made all those mistakes in man/woman communication, I still don't think he is justified in exploding at me the way he did. I could accept him being angry, but he should walk away and say "We'll talk about this later!!" He could even say it angrily, and I could respect that. But blowing up like he did was unacceptable to me. Blowing up and yelling at me alone would be unacceptable. Blowing up and yelling at me with his child hanging on his arm begging him to stop is even more unacceptable to me.
I made all those mistakes because my own anxiety level was rising higher and higher. With every mistake I made, my anxiety level rose and I made more mistakes. So I think I did have some part in it.

Like I said, I'm a failure at this relationship. I'm willing to admit that, I don't know where to go from here. I think the best thing for our boys is to get them into boarding school and out of our house. Then I can think about the future - my future.

I have to go now. Thanks for being concerned,

LIR

Ok, I'm back, finally - our friend left on Saturday, and Sunday was a busy day for me - YS and I went to hear OS sing in the choir both in the morning and for the afternoon Advent carol service. OS had solos in both services and sounded wonderful - I am very proud of him. H was working all day Sunday at his own church, but he called in the evening and was able to talk to OS at home while he was eating dinner.

I have still felt really down about things with H, and H has noticed that I was very withdrawn from him, although we have had hardly any time to speak of. He got home around 9 on Sunday night and we watched a television program together. He commented that I was being very quiet when we were in bed, and I said I was just tired.

This morning, he played a concert, and when he came back in the afternoon, with two of our friends, I gave one of them a ride back home when I went out to pick up YS from school. She is also my friend, and I haven't seen her for a few weeks - she performed as part of the lecture-demonstration that I co-hosted a month ago. She asked how I was and when I said I was OK, she said I didn't look OK and asked me what was wrong. Well, I ended up talking to her, and she understood - I felt better, more alive to the world after talking to her. She said her mom and dad had similar problems and it was only after her mom ended up in the hospital with a breakdown for the second time that her dad waked up to what his behaviour was doing to her, and then he did change. She said that people realized that my H was not an easy person to live with and that it must be rough for me sometimes, but she understood why I would stay with him. I told her I thought breaking up the family would put the boys under more stress than anything they might go through right now and that I have thought the best place for them to be is in boarding school, and she agreed and said I had done really well - my YS has passed his voice trial and will be going into the choir next September, and is really looking forward to it. I told her that despite the way my H has behaved with me, all the good things about my H are genuine as well, and that I also knew that he loved me. She told me if I ever needed to talk, or needed anything, she was there for me. I told her I didn't like to talk about my H to people because if I have decided to stay with him, I don't want to be going around complaining about him, but she said since she grew up with something similar, she knew sometimes it helped to get it off my chest. She said she loved her dad, and he had changed a lot, once he realized it was him, and how badly he was affecting the family. She thought my H loves me and that he could change, too - but she agreed that he had to take responsibility for his rage and stop scapegoating me, for things to improve. Her mom suffered depression, as well, and she thought that was a natural reaction if you are being treated that way.

I felt a lot better after talking to her, because I know she likes my H, as well - one of the things that bothers me a lot is the thought that if I talk to my friends, that they will turn on my H. I guess it also felt good because I need to build my own support group and it feels good to know that I still have friends around me who don't condemn me for staying with H, but also understand the kind of relationship I'm in.

Well, when I came home, I walked in the door and H was waiting just inside. He put out his arms to me and gently hugged me. He said "You've been having a bad time, haven't you? Why? Tell me what's wrong." I laid my head on his shoulder and said "It makes me feel terrible when we are at odds with each other." He hugged me and said "I'm not at odds with you. I'm sorry."

I have been pondering what to say all day, even thinking that I should suggest that we just live as friends, since it is so obvious to me that we can't make a go of this relationship. I'm willing to accept that I just don't have the skills to deal with him. But tonight, after much thought, I think the thing to say is something like this...

"Honey, I love you, but these repeated incidents are killing the love I have for you. You said that I have to not push your buttons, but really, its you who needs to learn to not let your buttons be pushed. I know you can do this if you really want to, because its what I have had to learn, too. I used to explode at you when you pushed my buttons and I used to feel justified in doing it. And you told me that that just killed the love you had for me. Its just the same for me as it was for you. And I know that you can also change this part of yourself, if you try, just like I have. There are so many parts of you that are so special, it breaks my heart to see this part of you win out over all the good in you, and kill the love we have for each other. I am trying to build a better marriage, but I need your help, and this is what we both need to work on together."

That's what I would really like to say to him, and then I would point him towards MB, and the article on LBs and tell him that it is MB which has helped me to see the importance of LBing, or rather, not LBing in a relationship. I think so many people, like me before I found MB, just don't realize that "all is not permitted" in a marriage. I used to think that because my H was married to me, he loved me and would forgive me anything, that I could "express myself" and there was no danger he would leave me. I now know how wrong I was. I think my H probably is labouring under the same illusion, but he hasn't yet dedicated himself to learning anything about how to improve his marriage -

Like you have said SO many times, ss - he needs training. Maybe he is still open to the idea of training. I think this is the kind of positive approach that you would suggest, ss? So many times you have tried to get me to approach conversations with him in this kind of way. Well, I suggested we go out to a movie tomorrow night and he said yes, he would like to go.

I am afraid to talk to him - maybe it would be better if I write him a letter and say all of what I said above in the letter.

Well, that's where I'm at right now. I need to get off now and call my mom.

I'm glad you are feeling better, ss - I will check up on you later in the week - sounds like a good shopping trip, too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Take care, and thanks for all your help, everyone.

LIR

Yay!! I'm so very encouraged for you, LIR!! I think you've got a wonderful opportunity and approach, there, and I think it would really be great if you were able to express that to him calmly, courteously, and respectfully.

I'd also love to see him posting here, and learning from the things that people here have to say. You're so right that there's a lot of training that we all need in making a go of marriage. It'd be really great if some day that were the focus on this site, instead of all the awful stuff that happens to get people here.

LIR,
Oh, LIR, it's not your fault.

Like I said, I'm a failure at this relationship. I'm willing to admit that.......

Was Christ a failure because he didn't convert everyone?

I realize you are not perfect - I do know that. I can't see where Dr Harley says that you will have to run a perfect plan and never make a mistake to be a success. I can't see that in scripture either. Could you show that to me? (please smile here.) Maybe you can pause and think about that for a minute, it's important for you to understand.

You can't show me that in scripture, because it's not there. It says that none of us are without mistakes, and we when we make mistakes we can overcome those if we are humble, if we repent, and come to Christ. That's what I have been seeing this last year, and it's you, and your improvements are for real. You don't need a 2x4 right now. Were the great God of heaven to visit you in person, and speak to you, I don't think he would use a 2x4 either, but I rather think he would take you in his arms, and console you. That's my personal opinion, but he can testify to your heart if it is true.


I don't know where to go from here. I think the best thing for our boys is to get them into boarding school and out of our house. Then I can think about the future - my future I have to go now. Thanks for being concerned,

I would like you to list your options as you see them. You have more then one. Perhaps you feel there is only one left to you - but please list them. Could you also tell what you believe the chances each option has of succeeding? You don't need to go into great detail.

I hate to ask you to do that - please forgive me for adding to your to do list.


But even if I made all those mistakes in man/woman communication, I still don't think he is justified in exploding at me the way he did.

I agree with you on this one. That's how he copes, he blames you for everything, he explodes, and then he feels better. You are correct in seeing the cycle, and that the apology is part of it. He has little or no guilt, because he says he is sorry - and that is that.

I have still felt really down about things with H, and H has noticed that I was very withdrawn from him, although we have had hardly any time to speak of. He got home around 9 on Sunday night and we watched a television program together. He commented that I was being very quiet when we were in bed, and I said I was just tired.

I wish you could be honest when he asks, because I hate to see his "everything is OK" view of things get any support at all. He needs to know. If you are afraid to talk at all, then you need to do what feels safe to you. You have my permission to be safe. You need more safety than just keeping quiet affords though - and I know you are looking at getting that.


I felt a lot better after talking to her, because I know she likes my H, as well - one of the things that bothers me a lot is the thought that if I talk to my friends, that they will turn on my H. I guess it also felt good because I need to build my own support group and it feels good to know that I still have friends around me who don't condemn me for staying with H, but also understand the kind of relationship I'm in.

You can't see me breathe a sigh of relief after I read you have someone else you can talk to, but it is a very real sigh - what a wonderful thing, just when you needed it. Is it coincidence? Or are you being blessed when you need it most? You decide - but I am still happy either way.


I believe your approach is a good one, but I - what's the word? Perhaps I lack faith in his response. If you have the strength to do it, It is a good thing to do. I know there are many things you put off talking to him about because you also lacked the faith, or you were fearful. I can't blame you for that. There are still things you can do for you. Not because you own it to him, but because I know you continue to reach for tools, and for strength.

I don't know if I would bring him to MB yet. There is a lot here - I don't know about that one. I would like to see the book "Love Busters: Overcoming The Habits That Destroy Romantic Love" put somewhere in the house where he could see it. I believe if he saw it and picked it up, it would capture his interest enough for him to read much or all of it. You know him better than I do, and you can better understand what he might be willing to study.

I would be willing to purchase it and sent it to a mail drop, or friend of yours if that would help. I think that would work with your desire to remain anonymous. I could even send it to your sister or your dad if they could foreword it to you. I know money is tight most of the time.

If you try this approach and it doesn't work - well, I had ought to let you list your options, before I recommend anything. I believe you still have some things you can try, and I do not believe all is lost.

If you can find some extra time (fat chance, but I have to try) you may enjoy reading 1st Peter chapter one, especially verse 7.

I think you may also get something from chapter 2. I gave quite a bit of thought to verse 20 in that chapter. If you get into chapter 3, you should take it with a grain of salt right now, because it is kind of one sided, and needs other scriptures to balance it and give depth and meaning to it.

I know you are a strong person, but I also know you have endured much. Please don't be afraid, and don't think you need a 2x4 when a few kind words can accomplish the same for you right now.

Must go, but I'll be back around.

SS

Hello ss and J -

Thanks so much for your encouragement. I do feel a little better today - a little stronger.

You pointed out before, ss, that I need to do more for myself, and asked where I go to restore myself - well, funnily enough, I had started a program of exercising at the gym, but that had fallen by the wayside in October, when I had to work preparing for the lecture/demo I gave at the end of Oct. That's over now, and there's no excuse for me not starting back on my program. Also, working in the garden is a great release for me, but winter is now here, and there are a lot of cold, rainy days to contend with - it can be difficult to get out into the open these days. I have a knitting project I am working on, which I had also left by the wayside, so I have started working on that again, now that I am getting up at 6 every morning for my hour with my lightbox. Reading Scripture is always my first haven and I continue to do that every day. I also read - right now I am reading "Rebecca" by Daphne DuMaurier - the ultimate "other woman" book, but one which has resonance in my life - I am admiring how DdM turned her own obsessions into something so creative - I think if I could do that, I would feel more satisfied somehow. I have also started fixing up time to see my friends again - I had let that fall away over the summer, and with my mother being sick. I went out for coffee with one woman friend last week, and I'm going out to lunch with another woman friend tomorrow.

This morning, as I was praying, something came back to me - someone, was it you, J, who said that my H feels justified in being angry. I am also reading "People of the Lie" by M. Scott Peck, which I am almost done with. It struck me that my H feels justified in being angry, and in expressing his anger, because he feels threatened. He feels threatened, he reacts with a strong fight/flight mechanism - like you pointed out, J. He is NOT being threatened, but he FEELS threatened. He has "bought" the lie that anger is something that will protect him. It came to me that I understand this because its exactly why I used to react angrily to H. I felt threatened, and I felt that if I showed anger, it would frighten him off. But this is, essentially, a lie. Anger does not protect you in these kind of circumstances, instead, it is destroying our love for each other, and our life together.

I have mentioned "buddy" before, ss - but in this context, I have also been able to nail down exactly why I think "buddy" had such a devastating effect on our relationship, troubled as it was already. It was "buddy" who convinced H that he had to protect himself from me.

I am thinking that I will write H a letter, and I will try to formulate the idea that anger as protection is a lie. (I'm not going to mention buddy, don't worry).

You are right, ss - I did avoid telling him the truth about how I was feeling the other night - but it was for my own protection. I didn't want to start a late-night conversation about "us" in bed - those have always ended in disaster, and I knew he was also very tired. So I lied to avoid the issue. I think he knew I was lying.

Got to go now because I am at work.

Thank you again, for being here for me when I needed you. I know it's not easy posting to me. I am trying to be honest with myself, and not excuse myself if I am enabling H to go on being this way.

LIR

<small>[ December 02, 2003, 05:17 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

tag, you're it.

SS

Hi LIR,
I really need to get around more.

I was just teasing above, it's really my turn, and I'll get back to you.

I don't get really nervous when I read your post, and think about you. I hope this lack of worry is accurate for how you are now.

If the cycle runs for you two like it did for us, things probably got better for a while after your last down time. I do agree the cycle needs to stop - but it is really hard for one person acting alone to stop it without resorting to something drastic like plan B. I know your think about all your options, I know you are fixed on doing this right. I wish I could tell you what that would be, but I can't. You can know for sure though, you can know for sure what to do.

Is Christmas a happy time, or a sad time for you?

SS

I tried to get on - usually stay up somewhat late on Friday night, but W just called and said it's time, so off I go. I have been thinking about your choices, about what you have been through the last few years. I feel to encourage not to give up hope. It would be nice to know just when dawn breaks, but sometimes in the night we can't tell time, and we only know it is dark. I believe you if you are supposed to continue, you will get the ability you need to do it. If not, you will know it, and not doubt.

Always remember that people care about you. Do you understand the depth of that statement? Often it is beyond our power to help more than we do, but we would if we could.

I continue to pray for you. I know there is soneone there, and I know he cares about you and will help.

"Be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."

That means you will get help - from one who's power to help is not limited.


Please be of good cheer!

SS

<small>[ December 13, 2003, 12:22 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Hi.

I'm still here. I did a big post yesterday but lost it.

OK. It's hard for me to post. I know that if I am unhappy in this marriage, I should seriously think of ending it.

If I say I stay because I think that splitting up would hurt the kids more, then it looks like an excuse for me doing nothing.

You are right, ss - after this latest "blow", he is better - he seems happy and relaxed, at least around the boys, and cheerful and flirtatious with me. Except for one thing - there is no sex. As soon as we are alone in our bedroom together, we are both turned off to each other. We get in bed and each read a book, then turn the lights off and roll over with our backs to each other. If I pat his bum, there is no response. I'm confused. All I can think of is that he is afraid of rejection and wants me to make all the advances. Well, in the last six months, I have done that a few times, and that hasn't helped. SF happened, but it wasn't exactly "inspired" if you know what I mean. I don't know what's happening there anymore. In fact, we had had SF for the first time in 2 months on the day he exploded at me. I would have thought that if he was tense about not having much SF, that he would have been feeling a lot better on that day, but in fact, it made no difference. Since that "blow" of course, there has been nothing.

Well. If I say I feel down, I only have myself to blame for staying with someone so problematic. But then there are all the reasons not to go. Yesterday, we all went out to see a film together - we all enjoyed it, and came home to dinner which I had put in the oven beforehand so it would be ready when we got home. To all intents and purposes, we had a great family day, and the boys are happy. Then we go to bed, and there is nothing between us, and this morning, he gets up and leaves without speaking to me.

It looks to me like both of us are just living alongside each other, trying to be good parents to our children, making the best of it in other words.

I think it would probably be a good idea for me to get some IC at this point. But if I did, he would just latch on to that as proof that I am the one with "the problems". I guess I have to think that it doesn't matter what he thinks about me, I have to do what's best for me.

I also meant to say thank you for offering to send me the book "Love Busters". What I am going to do is have my sister in Calif. order it for me on Amazon and then send it to me - I know she will do this. I am also planning two trips home to visit my family - the first in February for sure, and the second maybe at Easter. I am going to take one of the boys with me each time.
My mom is struggling along - the latest news is that her doctor thinks the diagnosis of bone cancer is questionable and that the pain she is experiencing in her spine and ribs is due to osteoarthiritis and osteoporosis. That would be good news, but only time will tell. She is receiving a new treatment to strengthen her bones, so we have to see how she gets on with it. She is patient and positive, and a great example to me.

My thanks to everyone who has prayed for my mom.

Well - I have to go - the boys are up now, and I have the whole day ahead with them - we are going to do some Christmas baking, so look out world!

I do know that people care about me. What I don't want to be is attention-seeking with any victim mentality. I do feel confused about myself in that respect, and that's why I am thinking about counselling.

Thanks again.

LIR

Hello LIR,
Why do I worry about you now? Your feelings are stronger than what you post, and that's why I worry - but you will get through this one too, and you will be OK.

OK. It's hard for me to post. I know that if I am unhappy in this marriage, I should seriously think of ending it.

You have lots of options. I believe you ought to use at least one other first. When one is a victim of abuse, they often leave so they can be safe until a solution is found. Often the abuser wants to change but lacks the knowledge to do so. Same as with substance abuse. Many times the abused leaving is a catalyst for finally seeking help.

Now, I know you must have considered that, but ruled it out. Perhaps it is his history, you have given him many chances and he has never really changed. You have other things you live with besides his anger. Continued secrecy, his refusal to be open about the money, and so on.

There is also a chance that he would claim to want help, and ever go through the motions only to make your life hell if you came back, so I hesitate to mention this, but wanted to know what you have been thinking.

You are right, ss - after this latest "blow", he is better - he seems happy and relaxed, at least around the boys, and cheerful and flirtatious with me.
I haven't read about abuse except for here on MB. You have more book learning about it, but I know *me* and how I reacted. I felt guilty, and so I think I was nice to make me feel better. ( (I was mean, so now I'll be nice to make up for it.) Sometimes I could ignore the guilt quite well. Practice helps, but it never would leave me alone.

Except for one thing - there is no sex. As soon as we are alone in our bedroom together, we are both turned off to each other.

From your posts, your feelings about this (the emotional abuse) are strong, and he must be able to sense that. He can tell you are distant - probably doesn't dare approach you. This is different than I was - at least in how long it lasts. I always loved my W and sought her company. Perhaps it DOES have something to do with an OW. I still think you should snoop - because I really think you need to base your decisions on fact, and right now you don't have all of the facts.

We get in bed and each read a book, then turn the lights off and roll over with our backs to each other. If I pat his bum, there is no response. I'm confused. All I can think of is that he is afraid of rejection and wants me to make all the advances. Well, in the last six months, I have done that a few times, and that hasn't helped. SF happened, but it wasn't exactly "inspired" if you know what I mean. I don't know what's happening there anymore. In fact, we had SF for the first time in 2 months on the day he exploded at me. I would have thought that if he was tense about not having much SF, that he would have been feeling a lot better on that day, but in fact, it made no difference. Since that "blow" of course, there has been nothing.

Ask him point blank. You need information. You need communication. Please don't let things go like this because you are afraid of his anger. If you ask and he gets angry, it gives you some information and gives further impetus to you forcing some kind of solution. I pushed 2long ( very gently, but still pushed) for a long time to further communication skills, and I encourage you (very gently also) not to give up on just asking what he is thinking.

" Honey, I know SF is important to you but there has been little to nothing going on in that department for a long time. Frankly, I am worried about us, and your feelings for me. I don't want to push you to talk, but if you are willing, I would like to know what you are thinking about things, and how you feel."

You can go on about what you observed above. How things go at bedtime, lack of feelings shown, etc. Unless there is OW, I can't imagine what is going on in his mind. HOWEVER, there may be a very logical reason for this that I haven't experienced, and we ( or I) often jump to conclusions.

I have a really hard time with suggestions lately, because I don't want you to suffer any more emotional turmoil following my suggestions.

Well. If I say I feel down, I only have myself to blame for staying with someone so problematic. But then there are all the reasons not to go. Yesterday, we all went out to see a film together - we all enjoyed it, and came home to dinner which I had put in the oven beforehand so it would be ready when we got home. To all intents and purposes, we had a great family day, and the boys are happy. Then we go to bed, and there is nothing between us, and this morning, he gets up and leaves without speaking to me.

The reason I always encourage you to seek guidance from God is because that's the only way to know you haven't made a mistake. If you have trouble with understanding answers, I can tell you how I go about getting them. I don't claim to be the best at it, but I know someone is there, and I do feel that strongly. There is no doubt there for me because I talk to him, and he answers. Let me know about this one.

Is there anything else going on right now for him? Work problems? Money problems? Is his mother worse? I have been like this at times in my life when I was afraid of other things. I would tend to think you would catch that by now, what with all you have learned, but you have your own troubles, and it could get by.( but I doubt it - I just had to ask.)

I would guess that the family time is kind of hollow because of the lack of trust, and the fear. My W says she didn't care if she even spent time with me because she just never knew. Even now, after nearly two years, she sometimes fears. We did a date Friday night and she looked really relaxed - and I commented on it. She said: "I feel really safe tonight, and happy, and I know you love me." Remember - two years and it's the first time she has ever said that.
Your feelings are not un-important. You can't just "get over it" and go on with out something being done to address it. Anyone else in life we can cope with, but not our spouse - we give up to much to them when we marry and we need safety and protection in return or we can't do it.
I think it would probably be a good idea for me to get some IC at this point. But if I did, he would just latch on to that as proof that I am the one with "the problems". I guess I have to think that it doesn't matter what he thinks about me, I have to do what's best for me.

I am unsure what you hope to get from IC at this point. It is well to quit worrying about what he thinks, but from what I see, you have tackled most of your demons, and the only big one left is fear, as a direct result of his anger. I don't' think IC can do much there.

You have a few choices, lets list some.

1. Buy a gun, protect yourself. but then you live in the UK, so maybe not. (NOTE to EVERYONE on MB, this is a JOKE, please don't flame me.) It may be a poor joke, but that's my specialty.
2. Live with it, and learn not to let it bother you. - I think this one is not realistic.
3. Leave and not return until he is willing to get treatment.
4. Divorce.
5. Find a way to continue to communicate with him about it and continue to work it out. Perhaps "continue to work it out" is a falsehood. Perhaps nothing has worked so far.

Please don't say: "Well. If I say I feel down, I only have myself to blame for staying with someone so problematic."

There are many reasons for depression, or being down. It can be chemical. It can be related to the weather (read some studies about men in the arctic or Antarctic and what happens sometimes after long periods of time in the darkness.) There really is a devil, and he seeks to destroy you. Sometimes we gloss over the fight between good and evil, but it's real, and it affects us. Don't ever discount this part of life. I have stories about that too, but not tonight.

I meant to write more but my children are calling me for the evening - Please don't be so hard on YOU. That's not what you need right now. Have faith - have hope. I dont' say that lightly.

SS

I do know that people care about me. What I don't want to be is attention-seeking with any victim mentality. I do feel confused about myself in that respect, and that's why I am thinking about counseling.

I have thought about this comment since my last post, and have been thinking about it a great deal tonight.

I think one of your greatest benefits from posting comes from writing out your thoughts. It seems to help you see things better, and often when you are finished you have your own solution. I don't know if doing it in private would work as well for you or if you need to know you are doing it before people who can and will respond. That could make a difference in what you type.

I have never seen a victim mentality in your posts, but I believe that some may "see" it who haven't followed the whole story from the beginning. As far as attention seeking - I had to think about that one a long time, and I am sorry, but I just can't see that in you - or your posts. I think some more, and feel the same, I just can't see that in your posts.

This time of year can be especially hard sometimes. You have good memories of people, places, and times that you can't go back to, and you may miss them. I wish somehow to give you faith that the future can actually be better than the past, it's a hard thing to communicate, because life is no easier for me and lately perhaps more difficult, but the happiness is there because I am progressing, and when I pray, God communicates to me that he is happy with me. Does that make sense? Is God real enough to you that you can feel his presence each time you pray? Can you trust him enough that when he sends feelings of peace you know the future will be bright even if you can't see how that will be?

We (our family) wishes you a more happy and peaceful holiday season. Please take some time to reflect on your blessings now, and it will help. I know that all is not well, but many things are, and perhaps you can see the hand of God in some of those things and know you are being looked after.

Merry Christmas.

SS

Dear ss -

Merry Christmas to you and to all your family - thank you so much for your heartfelt best wishes.

I have to admit that I cry a lot lately when I post on my thread, and when I read on my thread. That's because I feel so unable to express my feelings and have an open, honest relationship with my husband. To be so closed up inside myself makes me terribly unhappy inside, even though outwardly, I can carry on with my family life, and appear relatively normal. Its a hidden depression.

Because of that, I think I need counselling. Yes, I am depressed inside. What I can't sort out is the entanglement between the effect H has on me, in terms of his actions and the way he relates to me on an intimate level, and what could be my own tendency to insecurity and depression apart from him. I do know that my first major depression coincided with my initial love affair with him almost 20 years ago. Up until then, I had made "mistakes" in my life, and been confused about what I wanted out of life, but I had the energy to tackle my mistakes and go forward with my life and if I was, at times, at sixes and sevens with myself, I didn't lose my forward momentum, or give in to despair. I always had hope for my future.

Right now, I don't know how to move forward. Or at least, I do know that I can take steps to move forward with myself, but I feel very fearful. And I don't know how to move forward into a better place with my husband. There are times when I think it might be possible, but I don't know.

My faith in God? Well, that place where I meet God in myself and feel His presence is very small right now. It feels as if all the bad feelings are blocking out everything else right now. I am keeping up with my Scripture readings, and I feel the "message" that I should come to Communion more often - it may be that God knows that the one moment when I am able to give up worrying and receive his peace is at the moment of Communion, so I am going to try to work this out somehow.

I think you are right that I do work out my thoughts when I write. Part of my problem, which I have written about in my journal and talked about with my mom, is that I have begun censoring myself. All of my life, I have written in a journal and tried to work out my thoughts and feelings about things in that way. Writing is my great release and act of "making". But when my husband went off the rails anger-wise, I became very afraid that he would find my journal (even though he has never shown any interest in reading what I write) - for some reason, I stopped writing - and I am now finding it very difficult to begin again. I am aware of this and I am working on it.

ss - I think they may be coming home now, so I have to go - I wish you all the best and thank you for your kindness and concern. We will have a good Christmas - i am planning on it - I hope the New Year is a new year for me. I will have to find the strength in myself to make it so.

LIR