In reference to my asking you where your thoughts take you.

Now that is a GOOD question! I don't know what to say - I've been trying to think so hard, my brain hurts

I had a reason to ask this, and it WAS NOT to give you a headache.


Well - there is never a time which I have to spend thinking, which isn't take time away from something else I could be doing - so I guess this points to the fact that if I want time to think...I need to schedule it...if I want time just to think, I need to make time for myself...I'm not good at this. I look at the pile of laundry which is still undone and "my time" just disappears...this is a big problems for me...and I'm sure the cause of some of my resentment...the usual "busy mom, busy wife" problem....but, I realize, up to me to find a solution for...

Much of that resentment goes away when your H helps. If he comes home and doesn't rest until you rest then at least you know that there is an active partnership and that BOTH of you are doing as much as you can. And I know - there are other things that creep in from time to time. "Where would I be, and what would I be doing if I didn't have this family to take care of, and all this work that they create." I really don't think you dwell on that, but the fleeting thoughts cross your mind. Hm, I am wandering off topic.

I asked so I could see where you are in recovery. When in the midst of the A, and all it's associated turmoil, there is little else that is on a persons mind. Whether you are driving somewhere, folding the laundry, making a meal, or what have you, that is what is in one's mind before recovery. If recovery is progressing well, then the other normal things fill your mind.

I wanted to know how you were progressing - and it sounds good. Now you just have normal every day things to worry about - and I don't mean to make light of your mothers troubles, but they are a part of the cycle of life. I feel badly for you and your siblings more than I do your mother. When she goes, she will be pain free, she will be young again, and she will have none of the cares of this world except for how her children and grandchildren are doing.

Right now, I'm feeling...all here and there....

My sister and I are preparing ourselves for the worst - like my sister said, if it isn't the worst, then we can feel relieved....but I think you all know what I'm saying...

Remember that your mother is only changing locations. She gets a new and better place to live but for a few years it will be hard to communicate with her. Your job is to so live your life that when you see her again you can report that you did the very best you could with what she taught you.

I have heard it said that this trip she will be taking (and I don't mean to hasten it at all, but I don' think she will last another 40 years) is like walking into another room. The distance is not far and one does not change - they are still the same person, with the same thoughts and feelings.

I'm trying to figure out when I can go back and take OS with me - maybe next month, during Easter break...

I hope it works for you. Remember that your H is from Mars. He doesn't see this like you see it. Please don't hold it against him, but realize he is different - not better, or worse, but different. Remember that there are things you like about him, and that he is not completely worthless, just sometimes.

Its hard to say what my emotions are...part of me is just totally numb...I DO notice that I don't feel much these days....its not that life is a struggle or that I'm having a hard time getting out of bed or anything, its that I'm not excited about my own life anymore...I more or less don't see a wide-open vista ahead of me at this point...whether that's because I'm going through my own MLC at 46, or because of the problems with H, or part of just plain old maturing, or whether its a coping mechanism, I don't know...all I can say is that I notice it...I don't even feel pessimistic, maybe its just the helplessness and resignation I feel in the face of what I know is coming.

It's like you are waiting for something to happen, but so far nothing has ? I still get excited about some things <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , maybe I am lucky to be male.
No, I think I understand what you are saying. Where did the meaning of your life go? What happened to the flame of passion and happiness, even a tiny spark would be nice some days .


Part of me feels stressed - I am supposed to be writing the Introduction to a catalogue of historical music in an archive collection - we have a progress report meeting tomorrow, and I have done nothing since our last meeting in December. I do not have the time to put into this research right now - I simply have no time to spare - I will be able to do more starting in September, once YS starts into boarding school and I have no children at home during the week, but not now...so I'm feeling stressed by having that hanging over my head...

So, you have integrity and you don't like to say you will do something and not do it.

I think (look out, here comes a personal opinion) - after thinking about your situation - that you are not recovered physically. I think emotionally you are coming along, but it has taken a toll on you mentally, and physically and it will be some time before you fully recover.

Remember when you were young, and you could stay up all night (especially if you were in love) and still work the next day. I suspect you can't do that these days. The fact is that you have had a very rough few years, and with YS's troubles, and your Mom - well, think about the stress you have been under and really it is a wonder you are as well adjusted and happy as you are.

H has been really good. I'm not sure what's happening with him... .........................................................................................................................................................................he's gone this weekend on a business trip, and he called and left a message on the answer machine the day he left, from the airport..."I'm just calling to say...I love you...and I hope you have a good day...etc." I couldn't believe my ears!! He sounded so sincere! And I'm not used to him saying that! I've talked to him on the phone and he's been very caring, about the news about my mum...what's happening? Is my H becoming a human being again?

Remember he is from Mars. If I watch my W for the signs, I can tell when she needs love and support and I can give it to her in ways she needs it because I read a lot, and also she tells me better what she needs, BUT it does not come naturally for me, and I don't "get it" unless I pay really close attention all the time. I really, really, really have to think about it. For him to do this for you means he cares about your feelings and wants to make you happy. He would NOT put this kind of effort into a smoke screen. I think it has to be real. Thank God for his help, but also look in the mirror and see who has as lot to do with your current success. Remembered when you wondered if it was worth it?

He has been so NOT THERE for me these last three years, through my brother's death, and then my SIL's death, that I don't know what to think...I'm not expecting him to "be there" for me through my mom's final illness, however long that takes..I am used to coping alone.

He hasn't read the books (his own fault, admittedly) but he IS from Mars. Not to make excuses for him, but I can see progress, even if it is slow. I was so worried that he would NEVER get it, but if he is calling to say ILY, then he CAN progress, and you DO have hope. I know you have done a lot of waiting for him, but this kind of success is worth a wait. You have it in you to make it work - as long as you continue to ask your Father for help.

LIR, do you realize that you are a success? Right now, as you read this, you are a success. You didn't give up - you didn't bail out when things were at their worst. You did the right things at the right time.
PLease don't say "but I could have done better." That is true of everyone that has ever lived on this earth with only one exception.

Hmmm...just some thoughts...

What would I really like to be able to think about if I could think about anything on my own? I guess it would be creative writing...I'd like to find the time to explore my writing talent....I also want to pursue two areas of interest...I want to pursue the MA in Librarianship, and a degree in horticulture...both....somehow, though, Mom comes first right now, although she would not want me to put anything off, especially not on her account...

All these things are important. The things we learn are one of the few things we take with us. The things we learn, and the relationships we make. Mom comes first, and so do YS, OS, and H. Remember who our example is - he that suggested "come, follow me."
His life was one of service, and if it sometimes seems that the real YOU is left behind, well, who would want to make you feel that way?

No, your goals are good ones, and I would support you in reaching them, but don't feel your life is shallow because you spend much of your time folding clothes and cooking. Service to family is one of the highest forms of following him. He will confirm that to your mind.

Juggling, juggling...

Just trying to update as best I can...thanks for reading...

I will say again - someday in another world, I hope to have good neighbors - and if one of them was you, I would feel honored to be in such a nice neighborhood. Whatever happens, however you feel - never give up. I have faith that you will be there ahead of me - I just hope I do as well.

ss...I'm glad your wife is feeling a little better...I have been praying for her...I find having a routine for getting out of bed in the morning, and having routines throughout the day is the thing that helps me most...I learned some of that from Flylady.net - I wonder if your wife has seen this website...it's a great one...

You suggested flylady quite some time ago, but she doesn't seem to be interested. I continue to encourage her, but she is a free spirit and wants to do it her way. We don't yet have POJA on every thing. I'm just happy I get to continue to work with her on it. It is a real blessing to have someone to "work out problems" with.

Thank you so much for your prayers in our behalf. It is so kind of you to remember us even with all your troubles. Yes, things are better - and improvement continues.

W just came by and read over my shoulder - she says "OK, I'll look at flylady."

Go ahead and laugh - it's good for you. Really, when I think about the opportunity we have, it is a blessing to live. Even with all our struggles, what a great chance we have been given.

Please continue, and I'll come along behind as best I can.

SS

Hi there -

I'll tell you what - I've been trying to sort out this "numbness" I've been feeling - you know a lot of it has to do with feeling betrayed. What you said about that I have not recovered completely physically and mentally, although I am getting better. ..When you are going through the pain of infidelity, it is all so raw...and what you said is exactly true - it's ALL you think about - it doesn't matter what else you may be doing, the affair and all its implications - how he could have lied to me so many times, how he could have deluded himself, how he has justified himself, the horrible things he said about me, what I could have done better....all that goes round and round inside your heart and mind ALL the time, waking and sleeping. And yes, you are right...the stress really has taken it out of me physically...I need a lot of sleep lately...I DO remember being able to stay up all night studying, or going to a party, and getting up to go to work the next day, not feeling totally wiped out...NO MORE! I could sleep for England, as they say here....I just CAN'T stay up all night working on research, or writing...I could stay up all night if one of the kids was sick...but every night that I do that, I HAVE to make it up...I LIKE naps!

You are very canny, ss - to ask me this question, just to see how I would answer, and I find your judgement encouraging - judgement isn't really the right word - discernment is a better word...

I AM thinking much more about just the ordinary stuff of life...and about my future. But the betrayal still haunts me...lately I have been pondering within myself the problem of my own ability to forgive. Lack of forgiveness on my part will spoil our future together as much as his angry outbursts. When I say the betrayal haunts me...I think a lot of that could be rectified eventually by his lovingkindness...I know that he does love me again...has feelings of love for me now that he thought had gone...and with those feelings of love must eventually come some sense of responsibility...I know that after his last explosion (remember when he recently "fell off the wagon"?), I think he realized that he was way out-of-line there...which could help him reflect on the past three years (and more) a little better, if he could. I think, like you say, he CAN. I used to feel he was practically hopeless, but I don't feel that way right now.

No, its not HIS betrayal that I can't get over - its the other people who betrayed me - his best friend, who knew and cautioned him about his daughter 6 months before I found out - his best friend who I opened my home to, and the daughter that I extended my hospitality to - OW2 who came into my home and chatted to me like an old friend, right before she waltzed out the door to have a drink with my H! "Buddy" who came and spent the weekend at our home and whom I cooked for - all of these people took from me - my friendship, my friendliness, my hospitality - they slept overnight at my house and I cared for them - the longtime friends in Germany who apparently found me "boring", and compared me to the Nazis - you know, all these people only ever heard my H's side of the story, and bought all his self-justification hook, line and sinker, or had their own agenda of wanting to be friends with him because my H is charismatic and talented. Despite my opening my home to them, they showed me no loyalty or consideration at all. That's what is really hurting me...and my counselor, who I spent 6 months with, just dropped me after trying to counsel us both - I know that was clumsy on her part...I still feel hurt...

I don't know how to judge myself...was a stupid and naive? Was I too trusting? Perhaps confused, naive and too trusting of my H...but...I expected more out of my H's best friend, of our mutual friends, and of "buddy"...it has been a nasty awakening to how duplicitous people can be...I remember my mother tellling me that all of my Dad's friends knew that he was flagrantly unfaithful to her, but that none of them would testify for her in court...and that's why she had to put a PI on my Dad, which still bugs him....

It has shattered not just my trust in my H, but in people...I now feel very gaurded about the friends my H makes...very wary...not trusting at all anymore...and where once I liked and responded to people, now I don't allow myself to feel anything towards them anymore....that makes me feel sad....

I'm just trying to deal with the aftermath....and you are right...I think it takes many years....I hope I won't always be so bound up inside myself....it may be just that I didn't have a lot of internal personal guidelines...reading on MB for two years has really helped me to see where people are coming from...to build a set of healthy expectations....to be able to decipher people's "hidden" agenda....dealing with someone who gets too "close", who has a hidden agenda, like "buddy" is a different thing altogether....

I think tomorrow I am going to just be honest with the committee and say that I don't have time to do this right now - they already know that my mum is ill and that I've had to go to the States - I also know that publication is still probably at least a year away. I will say that 6 months from now, I should be better set to sit down and do some hard, rewarding work on the introduction - right now, the best I can hope for is to come up with an outline, and at best, a rough draft of each important section - after all, it doesn't have to be a master's thesis....sometimes I get lost, not seeing the wood for the trees.

As to H....I think he is showing some improvement, definitely....he is definitely trying....but like you said, he is from Mars, and he won't read books....I haven't posted all the things that have happened between us, but there have been some significant "events" - basically, like you said, I have begun to lose patience and started to "blow" when he gets on my nerves...it doesn't seem to me this is such a bad thing...I have worried so much about LB'ng and tried to change my confrontational behaviour, but that doesn't mean I don't still get upset when he is miserable to me...and he can still be a pig sometimes....

Well, last week one night, I was really tired - there was a big mix-up about dinner, and it ended up being 2, almost 3 hours late - you know, when he wants meat and two veg and gravy and I do my best to get it on the table - and I only have two electric burners on my stovetop, it ain't easy, ya know? so the potatoes weren't done, not really...still too hard...and he had wanted them roasted anyway...he didn't get mad and yell at me...he's not that abusive...he just gets irritated and frustrated at the fact that they weren't done RIGHT...well, I put them all back in the pan and took them back into the kitchen to boil them some more, but he had the idea that he would fry them in the pan drippings...we were both simultaneously trying to correct the situation in different ways....when I went to pour boiling water on them, he shouted at me to stop..that was it...I threw the pan on to the stovetop, yelled at him that I was sick and tired of being yelled at and walked out. I told the kids I was just going out until I could calm down and then I would be back...I got my coat and left...I drove around for half and hour, crying, and at one point, just screamed to myself as loud as I could...I was so unhappy...but ya know, I came back...and all was well...he put my plate in front of me, he had kept it warm, the potatoes were all nice...and they all hugged me..he said he was sorry and I said I was sorry....life goes on....

The thing I HATE is that he expresses his irritation and frustration when things aren't the way HE likes them...to me this is horribly impolite and shows no consideration for all the work I have done to try to make him happy....the message to me is that he is not happy unless I am perfect....that makes me mad, and I feel like giving him the two fingered salute...I wasn't raised to express myself that way, and no-one else treats me like that...in my house, if the potatoes weren't done, (and once my grandmother forgot to turn the oven on for Christmas dinner, with ALL the aunts and uncles and all 13 grandchildren in attendance), someone said "oh dear, here, I'll put them back for a few minutes" and there was no disruption to the cheerful flow....but my H is so high-strung and demanding about things...I know its because he was raised in a household where the ONLY thing that mattered was whether the potatoes were done right...but does he HAVE to be that way, too? My FIL can sit at the table and fume silently and I don't even notice, but my H does...he will say...didn't you notice how upset the old man was? No, I say...well he was, he was upset because she didn't have everything ready at the same time and he had to wait...so how come he can't see that he is sometimes, not always...EXACTLY like his dad? OK, I forgive him a lot of the time, but sometimes...he has to know that I hate it when he is like that...

I say all this because I think its better if he knows the truth about how I feel...and even though I have been afraid of LB'ing, I think it is fair for me to say I hate it when he treats me like that...so I have started to say things like that more often.

Well....its getting late and I have to do some rudimentary work for the meeting tomorrow, so I think I better quit.

I am glad, 4give,, that you looked at the Flylady website...I think Flylady really helped me keep going when I was overwhelmed by the affairs...I could have just let everything go...and your house sounds an awful lot like mine! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I am still struggling, but Flylady has helped me not to feel so hard on myself, and to see that I can get things done in just 15 minutes, if I keep my goals small.

I am glad, ss, that your wife said she would look at Flylady - it really has helped me, although I am not on the e-mail list anymore - Yahoo desubsribed me and I haven't been able to get back on...but I still try to follow her program and it has helped me see the importance of routine...even mini, tiny routines...and to take BABYSTEPS towards my goals.

All things work for good for those who love the Lord...think of how many good things are working together here!

Thank you for your thoughts on my Mom, ss - I think I would be more emotionally upset if I did not have faith...I do know that she is going to be in a better place...I will miss her terribly and there is still so much I want to share with her...I hurt for her because I think there was so much she wanted to do in her life that she never did...and this cancer didn't have to happen...this is not the way we wanted her to go...but she is in this condition because she refused to get breast cancer screening, preferring to think it wouldn't happen to her...she gambled with fate and lost...there's a lesson in there for us....I know that I will always be able to share with my Mom, even if she is in "the next room"...its just that I was hoping she would have a chance to enjoy what could have been a nice, restful old age...because she was, until this cancer hit her, a young "old woman", with no other health problems other than some arthiritis...

I've got to go now...but its good to be able to talk...I'll keep praying for your wife...i do know what it is to be depressed, and to be "up and down"...

Ciao for now,
LIR

P.S. Do you know why my screen is now all stretched out? there's a lot of dots in your post, ss at one point, I wonder if that made the "window" stretch out wide?

<small>[ March 07, 2004, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

My screen is stretched out too right now. Mot the first time, so it's an occasional glitch, I guess. Actually, I didn't want to read your whole post right now, since it's so annoying.

Both of my parents died of colon cancer. My mom when I was still in middle school, and my dad about 1989. I know how difficult it is. You've had your mom longer, although you live so far away from her. It doesn't sound good that her liver is enlarged. I'll pray for her.

About the dots -
I don't know if it could be the post, because it is just text you can read on the MB Server. It's not like sending a file or something.

We have one computer at work that does that sometimes and a re-boot always fixes it for a while and then it comes back over time.

Also, when the video card starts to go bad a wide stretched out screen can be a symptom.

4give - how are you doing now? I haven't read about you much, but would like to know.

LIR - I am leaving on a business trip tomorrow and won't be able to get back to you in a timely manner. I read through your post and if I had time now would have a lot to say, but who knows how much of it will still be with me when I get back.

I hope you realize that while I have faith in you, I always try to back up your faith and encourage you. It's not that I think you will fail, it's just that it goes along with what I believe to support and help as much as I can.

Darn, so much I want to say, and no time. If I stay up later, I will be worthless tomorrow and I have a long day ahead of me.

So much of what you say about your H applies to me. I am almost his identical twin, only with a different accent.

My W says I treat her right almost half the time now, so there is hope for all of us . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I realize there are still many problems, and when I encourage you I don't mean to gloss over them, but a start is a start - and I see encouragement in that. I do think you ought to let him know when things bother you. That is radical honesty, and it is good. Just keep in mind that the delivery is everything when you want help.

For instance:
You dirty rats, I called but you ignored me time and again. You will burn for this !!!!

Or:
Matt. 23: 37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not !

I hope I don't leave the wrong impression.

LIR, you have talent and ability. You have your direction. Please know that it is worth it, no matter what happens, no matter how things turn out. When you get discouraged, remember that there are others in the world that know the road we must follow and will assist as much as we can.

I hope God will carry this into your heart, I must go - and I haven't the time to do it like I want to.

God be with you.

SS

OK, I'm just touching base here. Thanks so much for your last post ss - I appreciate your good thoughts, and I hope your wife is doing well.

I think what you said about Radical Honesty without LB'ing is v. important - I think we are both working on our marriage, and I am feeling braver about being honest about my feelings - when I don't like something I am able to say so, but I DO still need to remember not to do it in an angry way. I also need to remind myself that he needs Admiration and support in positive ways - I can still "forget" that he needs support from me, even after all we have been through.

I am not going to stay long. I just wanted to say that things aren't looking good for my mom. Last week we got the results of her CT scan, and it shows she has "extensive" liver cancer. She has virtually stopped eating, and can't even get water down unless it is warmed. The doctor has presented her with the option of chemotherapy, which, if it proves effective, will give her a bit more time than she would otherwise have. Without it, her time is very short. She has only waked up to this as of yesterday, and yesterday, she was crying on the phone with me. She had thought she was actually getting better and that her nausea was a result of the different medications she was on - at least, that's what she wanted to believe, even in the face of the results of the scan. So she has opted to go for the chemotherapy - she needs to get a tooth fixed today, and then will start chemo tomorrow.

I am spending a lot of time on the phone, with my mom, my sister, and my dad. I am just trying to be there for my mom - a listener, and a shoulder to cry on, with no judgement. Whatever she decides to do, I have realized this is her journey, and its not for me to say how she should be making it - whatever she feels is OK with me.

My own feelings are just changing from day to day - some days are good, and some days I cry. Right now I'm not scared of the future - of life without my mom - in other words, I guess I'm finally ready to grow up. But I will miss my mom - her friendship has been more special to me than I can say, and for so many, many years, she has been like a lighthouse in the dark for me. A lot of my sad feelings at the moment have to do with the sadness I feel for her, because she is someone who suffered so much, lost so much and deserved so much better, never recovered from the divorce or my dad's affair with OW, and has so much that she still wanted to do in life.

I'm going to go back in the week after Easter, and take OS with me, even if its just for a few days. I have thought a lot about it, and I know that if I didn't go, I would regret it forever. I don't want to think about having to say goodbye to her at the end of that week. I think I will just tell myself that I will also go back when the end comes, so I won't have to think of saying goodbye to her forever just yet.

I just want to thank everyone who has prayed for my mom and for me, for all your prayers.

Will be back in touch when I can be.

love,
LIR

I also need to remind myself that he needs Admiration and support in positive ways - I can still "forget" that he needs support from me, even after all we have been through.

It is hard to support someone that hurts you, it is hard to support someone that maintains they have a "right to privacy" in a marriage. You seem to feel (most of the time) that he loves you, but because he does things that hurt, it is hard to give love and support back to him. That is the natural part of us - we give love to those that love us, and we stay away from those that hurt us. Though we need to protect ourselves from harm, we also need to follow the example of one who taught us to love everyone - even our enemies and to return love for hurt. It IS difficult, I have a hard time with it myself as I struggle to improve.

I am not going to stay long. I just wanted to say that things aren't looking good for my mom.

Though you have faith that you will see her again, I think I understand at least some of the feelings you have as you prepare. You know the family ties and the emotions we have for family are the strongest that exist on earth. They are meant to be eternal, and we feel that. It is right that you miss her, and I know you will do well, but I hope that within 6 months of her leaving, you will have a really good cry and get your feelings out.


My own feelings are just changing from day to day - some days are good, and some days I cry. Right now I'm not scared of the future - of life without my mom - in other words, I guess I'm finally ready to grow up. But I will miss my mom - her friendship has been more special to me than I can say, and for so many, many years, she has been like a lighthouse in the dark for me. A lot of my sad feelings at the moment have to do with the sadness I feel for her, because she is someone who suffered so much, lost so much and deserved so much better, never recovered from the divorce or my dad's affair with OW, and has so much that she still wanted to do in life.


Please don't be afraid. While your life has been difficult, and you still have doubts, you also have moments when you know - when you feel, that things will be OK. Trust them.

You speak of growing up - how apt it is to think of that at the time when you may loose the friendship and advice of your mother. You will take her place in an unbroken chain - as she did when it was her time to do so. Your sons will one day take it from you - and you will have prepared them for it. If you will have as much faith in yourself as I do, you will not worry about being lonely, or sad - that will pass like a dust cloud in the wind and your life will be rich and full.

I'm going to go back in the week after Easter, and take OS with me, even if its just for a few days. I have thought a lot about it, and I know that if I didn't go, I would regret it forever. I don't want to think about having to say goodbye to her at the end of that week. I think I will just tell myself that I will also go back when the end comes, so I won't have to think of saying goodbye to her forever just yet.

It is always good to put the most important things first. It sounds to me like you are doing that. I hope your H supports you in this - I hope he takes this chance to make desposits.

Please don't use the word "forever" when you talk of saying goodbye. I am gently teasing - but remember that it is for perhaps longer than you have been without her for all your life, but it is not forever. There are times when the veil is thin, and your Father will not leave you to suffer alone.

I don't always know the best things to say, it is hard to type feelings - but if faith and help can be extended across the net by typing, I hope you feel it when you read this.

I have faith in you because I know who and what you are - perhaps you still have some research to do before you know - I trust you to do the work.

SS

<small>[ March 23, 2004, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Thank you for your latest message, ss -

I'm doing OK (I think) - as best as can be expected. It's hard to think about myself right now. I am going back to CA for the week after Easter, and taking OS with me this time, so we are getting ready for that - I still have to buy the tickets!

Mom went through a crisis this week - she was rushed to the hospital last Sunday (10 days ago), with a perforated ulcer - caused by the medications she has been taking - she pulled through that very well, but that means that chemotherapy is now out. She will be coming home from the hospital in the next couple of days, and when I talked to her last night, she finally sounded more like her old fighting self, so I think she's doing pretty well. I was all ready to rush out there, but when it was clear that she was recovering very swiftly, my family urged me to stick to my original plan - that would also give my Mom a reason to recover and come home, so that's the plan.

It has been hard waiting, though - I go up and down with anxiety sometimes, but I'm hanging in there - and looking forward to seeing her again.

I still pop in here daily, and I have tried to help out where I think I can, although my time is very short - sometimes it helps me to think I can help someone else through a crisis. My H has been very good, very supportive, although sometimes it feels like "we" and everything to do with "we" is on hold right now. In general, though, he is making up for the past by his supportive behaviour now, so that makes me happy.

Gotta go now - pick up from school in 10 minutes! How short life is - how little time - in some ways, my whole perspective is changing - hopefully, for the better!

Take care all,
LIR

Though Prayers can, and do help people recover, God knows what is best for all of us and that is what he likes to do - what is best.

I hope your mother recovers and gets to spend more years with you, but I believe whatever happens will be made into good for you if you continue doing what you ought to do. Worry about the things you can control - let God worry about the rest.


I still pop in here daily, and I have tried to help out where I think I can, although my time is very short - sometimes it helps me to think I can help someone else through a crisis.

You do a very, very good job. I hope you realize that. You have a gift - and you are way above average. Don't ever thing you are just another voice in a sea of voices.


My H has been very good, very supportive, although sometimes it feels like "we" and everything to do with "we" is on hold right now. In general, though, he is making up for the past by his supportive behaviour now, so that makes me happy.


You still have trust issues that affect your feelings for him. It is hard to get close to someone that you can't wholly trust. I don't know what to suggest for this problem, it is something he needs to fix, not you. I am glad you nave not given up - mostly glad for him, because he needs the help, but also glad for you - you have peace of mind knowing you did all you could, and also for your sons who need both of you.

Gotta go now - pick up from school in 10 minutes! How short life is - how little time - in some ways, my whole perspective is changing - hopefully, for the better!

How short life is? Ask YS about that - he may see it differently (at his age, the week before Christmas lasts about 7 years.) - but I suppose your mother may see it as much shorter than you see it.

What is amazing to me is that out of this short snapshot in a life that started way before now, and extends into eternity we make choices that will affect us forever. We show where our heart is, and that is all that is needed, for "where your heart is, there shall your treasure be also."
From where I sit, you look good when judged by that standard. When you get to feeling down, remember the good things you have done, they count for something. No matter what happens to your mother, she knows you care, and that you love her. I count that as good.

How is your perspective changing? I would be interrested to know, if you can put it into words.

Thanks for checking in, it is nice to hear how you are doing. W and I still struggle too, but we are learning, and improviing though it is slow. I still have a lot to learn.

Life is short - You made me smile, I think you win the understatement of the week award. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

See you around.

SS

<small>[ March 30, 2004, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Hello there -

I'm home on Easter vacation, and so is the rest of my family, so it's difficult to get time to post - also, there's something in me right now that really resists putting my thoughts into words - I don't really like that - but maybe there's something germinating there. My mother's illness, and this is her final illness, I am sure, has brought up SO many thoughts and feelings for me - its a rollercoaster of a different kind from the BS "infidelity" rollercoaster - but for me, somewhat related, as so many of my thoughts and feelings about my mother are related to her relationship with my Dad, and his infidelity. My mom is not dying with my Dad at her side - she is dying with my Dad having made the choice to spend his life with the OW. So there are a lot of thoughts flying around here, which I would like to talk about sometime, not just for my benefit, but for others. From where I stand, I am the adult child of parents whose marriage was crushed by my Dad's infidelity - in many ways, I was a bystander in the drama of my Dad's relationship with the OW, I helped my mother carry the burden of the pain that caused her, and I am now watching the endgame of one of the players. I really feel for my mom in this, I know she loves me and she knows I love her. But I regret the way her life turned out, and I still wish it could have been different - it's not so much that I wish she and my Dad would not have divorced - what I really wish is that she hadn't let it ruin her life. She is a BS who never was able to grasp the reins of her life again, remained emotionally and financially tied to my Dad, dependent on him, emotionally involved in the "triangle" relationship between him, her and the OW, even though their sexual R ended when he walked out the door, and has never actually "moved on". I don't want to be that way.

My parents, after their D (when we were 13, 12 and 10), had to stay in contact because of us - my father gave her child support and maintained contact with us. I know that my father loves me. My brother suffered a schizophrenic breakdown when he was 19, and until he died, 2 years ago, my parents had to maintain contact in order to care for my brother. My mother was also always included in my father's extended family celebrations, so my mother and the OW would sometimes meet at family events, although not often, and when they did, they kept their distance from each other. Nevertheless, the point is that my mother never achieved financial or emotional independence from the man who left her for another woman. I think that's tragic. What happened to my brother was tragic, and if it hadn't happened, it's possible my mother would have been able to move on - many of her plans were thrown into disarray by her need to care for my brother.

The upshot of it is that my dad's infidelity had enormous and tragic consequences for everyone in our family. I know he has many regrets, but he cannot make it right at this point - that's the sad thing. So much of life involves acceptance of those things one cannot change. As a child, I had no control over what happened between my parents. As an adult, I can only grapple with my feelings and try to support them each emotionally. I have to accept what it is not in my power to change, but I wish life could have been different for them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by still seeking:
<strong> Though Prayers can, and do help people recover, God knows what is best for all of us and that is what he likes to do - what is best.</strong>

Yes, I agree - and I think that even if people don't recover, prayer can help keep us uplifted, and thus able to bear more easily the pain of loss. My friend William is also struggling against the cancer which is threatening his life - he is not responding to treatment - he is 45, and has three young boys, age 5, 8 and 11 - I have spoken to his wife, and she says everyone's prayers are helping keep him positive, which helps him to keep his "mental" will to fight on. Prayer is very important and effective in less obvious ways than being miraculously healed.


<strong>I hope your mother recovers and gets to spend more years with you, but I believe whatever happens will be made into good for you if you continue doing what you ought to do. Worry about the things you can control - let God worry about the rest.</strong>

My mother's liver cancer is definitely terminal, so it would be a miracle if she went into remission without chemotherapy - she also has bone cancer, although it is the liver cancer which is shortening her life at this stage. I do pray for her healing, but I trust in God. You are right - she does know that I love her, and I know that she loves me - and when I see some of the animosity other people have against their parents, I think that is a great gift. We have worked hard at expressing our love for each other in this life, and I'm glad we have now.


<strong>You still have trust issues that affect your feelings for him. It is hard to get close to someone that you can't wholly trust. I don't know what to suggest for this problem, it is something he needs to fix, not you. I am glad you nave not given up - mostly glad for him, because he needs the help, but also glad for you - you have peace of mind knowing you did all you could, and also for your sons who need both of you.</strong>

There's a lot I would like to say to my H, and stuff I still need to deal with - our relationship still has big question marks hanging over it (why does he think its OK to keep his e-mails private even after all we have been through? - does he understand how his emotional "friendships" with other women have affected his marriage? - why is there still no sex between us? - doesn't he understand that he has to invest time in his R with me? That it doesn't just "happen"?, for example) - all that is still on hold. I just feel I can only handle so much at a time. I don't want to threaten the stability we have found for the moment - its like - I need a breather, here - I need to have some "quiet" time in our R in order to get my act together - I am still not able to support myself financially, I just feel I have been grappling for so much for so long - so if I am "buying" quiet time by not confronting difficult questions, I guess that is what I am doing. I know for me, they won't just go away. But I am also praying for my H - and he has let me know that he is still seeing his counselor -so that's a good sign. He seems a lot happier - hopefully all that good will he feels for me won't be destroyed when I get back to dealing with the hard stuff. For now, I think the thing is just to concentrate on myself and forget about him. He DOES have stuff to work on - we know that. But I can't MAKE him change at this point.

What's important to me now is that he is being kind, thoughtful and loving, while my mom is going through this time. That's what I need most, and that's what he's giving me - the trust issue is always there, it haunts me, but it doesn't stop me appreciating that he is being kind and thoughtful, also.

<strong>How short life is? Ask YS about that - he may see it differently (at his age, the week before Christmas lasts about 7 years.) - but I suppose your mother may see it as much shorter than you see it.</strong>

Ha! You make me laugh! How true!

<strong>W and I still struggle too, but we are learning, and improviing though it is slow. I still have a lot to learn.</strong>

We all do, but keep your eyes on the prize - the effort is worth it and the cost of failure is more than you would ever be able to predict. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have to go now - OS is up and I need to get him breakfast - its a beautiful day here - lots to enjoy as well - like getting back to digging for hours in the vegetable - (weed) - patch! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Cheers,
LIR

<small>[ March 31, 2004, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Just wanted to add that I went to confession this morning, and I've made an appointment to see the priest, to talk about these issues with him, for next week. He's a very old priest and I expect there isn't much under the sun he hasn't seen. I told him I didn't want to see anyone in our parish who knew us both, and he offered to meet with me.

He asked me if I had anyone I could confide in, to tell EVERYTHING - and I said, not really - what bothers me most is the fact that my H and I keep secrets from each other - private e-mail accounts, and personal friendships. I have two friends that I have met here through MB, whom I e-mail, and my H doesn't know anything about them. I also come to MB and talk here, which my H does not know. I don't like this situation, but feel I have to protect myself, as long as H is not committed to an open, honest R. I have tried to talk to H about this, as you know, ss, and anyone else who has followed my thread, but my H has reacted angrily.

Well - I haven't found counselling helpful, because counselors, on principle, do not enter into any discussions of the moral dimension, and do not help you work out concrete strategies - my counselor ceased counselling with me on the basis that she would feel like she was "colluding" with me, so I don't see any point in subjecting myself to that kind of experience again, and paying a lot of money for it, either.

I need to talk about the things that plague my marriage, and haunt my private thoughts, in confidence, without fear that I will be "discovered". I need to sort out with a priest, whether my marriage was ever, in the Church's eyes, a valid marriage, given my H's previous R with another woman, which he has continued on a friendship level, the whole time we have been married. Perhaps this priest will be able to help me see where I can go from here.

I told him that every time I talk to someone else about my H, I feel I am betraying him. He said that is not true, not if I speak to someone like him, with the intention of getting to the truth of the matter in a way which will help the situation, not to slander H.

I have been to this priest before, in confession, and found him to very "alive" with a spirit of charity, and intelligent, so I hope this meeting will be fruitful, although I am anxious that I will appear to be neurotic.

Wish me luck. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

LIR

Wish me luck.

I have found that we usually make our own good luck - by the way we prepare for, and react to what happens to us in life.

I believe you will usually have good luck.

I am thinking about your last two posts - Sometimes I am very sure of what I post, sometimes it takes a lot of thought - and I still wonder.

Anyway, working on it.

SS

Well, I logged on this morning and got half-way through a post, but had to quit....so I'm back now and will try to remember some of what I had written... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I just wanted to let you know that the session with the priest went very well, and I feel quite reassured, after talking with him, even though we didn't go over the issue of the R my H had with an older woman before we got married, and how that has affected our marriage, and my H. Somehow, it didn't seem quite so pressing to talk about just then, but he told me I could feel free to come talk to him again anytime I needed to.

I told him the issue in our marriage that is really bothering me and continues to bother me is trust and honesty vs. secrecy/dishonesty. I told him about some of the problems we have had, and why I mistrust my husband now, and that I feel bad because I don't feel I am being totally honest with my H now, either, whereas before, I was always radically honest with him. I explained that, for example, I have talked to mutual friends about our problems and my H has no idea which of our friends I have talked to, that I have also found other people to talk to who supported me through these bad times (MB), and that now I have a couple of friends that my H doesn't even know I have. He said that while the ideal was that everything should be completely out in the open between H and W, that I was entitled to look for and receive the support I needed that has helped both me, and that has helped keep us together, even if he didn't know about it. It was not being dishonest or disloyal because I was not going behind his back in order to do something sinful. He said that I was entitled to protect myself and to protect my marriage, especially if my H was "not reading from the same hymn sheet" at the moment. So I should thank God for the support I was getting, since if I hadn't found it, then "something worse could have happened".

We went carefully over the positive things that are happening in our R, and he said that I should continue to focus on those and build up trust slowly - he said "you have come a long way IN SUCH A SHORT TIME", which really surprised me, since it feels like ages to me (almost 3 years since D-day no. 1). But he said that trust is earned back slowly once it has been broken and I would have to continue to be patient and show him that I was giving him the chance to be trustworthy. He agreed that it was not good to have private e-mail accounts, but he said that this was one of the things that it would take time for H to come around to. He thought it was a good sign that H is still seeing his counselor, and he said that he knows the priest that he is counselling with, and he thinks he is very good.

He also said that it seemed like I was a little afraid for things to actually improve, and that maybe I was afraid of investing the time for fear that it would all blow up again in my face sometime in the future. I said I thought that was very perceptive of him, and that it was true that I get these surges of anxiety from time to time, surges of mistrust. He said he thought that it seemed like there were a lot of positive things going on between us and I had to try to keep my mind remembering those whenever I felt anxious.

So I feel better about all of that.

One good example of positive signs between H and I: H and I have been trying to find time to go see "The Passion" together, but H is VERY busy right now and we haven't been able to make it happen. I said to H that I wanted to see it, and could always go by myself, but that I would rather see it with him. H jumped up and said, very enthusiastically "I'm really honoured that you feel that way about it, because that's the way I feel, too - I want to see it with you, so let's wait until we can see it together, OK?" Those are his words. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Gosh!

On the difficult note - my mum is getting a lot worse - she was very unwell yesterday and I am just about to call home after I get off the box here (waiting for the time difference) - and I am finding it hard to wait until Tuesday (6 days to go, incl today and Tues), when I and OS fly to the US. I am also finding it hard to think about the fact that I will only be able to stay a week there. The last two days I have felt like a zombie - just blank and staring, not even particularly sad. But I am trying to get on with doing useful things - getting everything ready for Easter, and digging over the ground in the vegetable patch, which is very much in need of attention. It's like, I have a lot of feelings which are just totally in limbo right now. I am neither here nor there with them, just waiting. It was hard trying to find an Easter card today for my mom - but I did find one.

Well, I better go - I'd just like to say thank you once again, ss - for taking the time to help me....

This scripture keeps coming to mind: Luke 6:43-45. I know that you still struggle, ss - but hopefully this will help you, as it helps me, to see that the if I think of my marriage with H as a tree, it is still giving some good fruit, so perhaps it isn't as bad as I sometimes think it is.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Ciao for now!
LIR

Often (for me at least) there are more things to say than time to say them. I would like to comment on much of what you talked about in earlier posts - but I can't take the time now.

I can see that your last post saved me a lot of grief, because you cover things I wanted to comment on, but many of my comments by them selves could have been taken for something else - now I think it will be easier to make them.

I just wanted to let you know that the session with the priest went very well, and I feel quite reassured, after talking with him, even though we didn't go over the issue of the R my H had with an older woman before we got married, and how that has affected our marriage, and my H.......

Thank goodness you were able to talk to someone that could really help you. I think you should go back and talk about your other issues until you get it all out. I do not think keeping all this inside is a help for you.

............I explained that, for example, I have talked to mutual friends about our problems and my H has no idea which of our friends I have talked to, that I have also found other people to talk to who supported me through these bad times (MB), and that now I have a couple of friends that my H doesn't even know I have. He said that while the ideal was that everything should be completely out in the open between H and W, that I was entitled to look for and receive the support I needed that has helped both me, and that has helped keep us together, even if he didn't know about it. It was not being dishonest or disloyal because I was not going behind his back in order to do something sinful. He said that I was entitled to protect myself and to protect my marriage, especially if my H was "not reading from the same hymn sheet" at the moment. So I should thank God for the support I was getting, since if I hadn't found it, then "something worse could have happened".

I think intent is the key - and also what it is that you are doing. This is one of the items I am glad he helped you with. It is not really appropiate for me (or any of us here) to make that judgement, but it is something a spiritial leader should counsel you on. I agree with him on it, for the same reasons.

If your H were to read your posts, or listen to your converstaions from any of your IC sessions, what could he be angry about? Mostly I think he might say you made him "look bad." I don't think you could be accused of having an EA with any of your female MB friends, and I know you protect yourself by not having private communication with any male friends. I have wanted to comment on this before, but after much thought, felt it best to leave it. I want to confirm that I feel the same as your priest - you need to seek help, and if you had not gotten it, your M may have ended long before now. I think you have sought help in a manner that would protect your M - which shows forsight, and care for your H while still getting the help YOU needed. It would be better if you could discuss things with H, and be radically honest with him, but he has rejected that for now. Until he accepts it, I do feel it is better for you to be married and do what you can to improve your relationship. You do have NC, his affair(s) are over - he shows love and care in many areas. I take that as good. What you have is a H that loves you but lacks many skills needed to make the M what it ought to be. I could say more about that - but lets go on.

The bottom line is that I agree with the counsel give you - as long as you continue to care for and protect your M.


We went carefully over the positive things that are happening in our R, and he said that I should continue to focus on those and build up trust slowly - he said "you have come a long way IN SUCH A SHORT TIME", which really surprised me, since it feels like ages to me (almost 3 years since D-day no. 1). But he said that trust is earned back slowly once it has been broken and I would have to continue to be patient and show him that I was giving him the chance to be trustworthy.

I agree on this one also. How old was Moses before he was ready to free Israel? How old was Abraham before he was ready for the test he was given? Some things take longer than we think, and YOU HAVE come so far in such a short time. Your H is not as talented in spiritial things as you are, and it may take him much longer. I freely admit I have been worried you would tire before he got to the point that he could help you with it. I have also worried that he will not reach that point - which worry you share with me at times.


He agreed that it was not good to have private e-mail accounts, but he said that this was one of the things that it would take time for H to come around to. He thought it was a good sign that H is still seeing his counselor, and he said that he knows the priest that he is counselling with, and he thinks he is very good.

I think it does give hope as long as he is continueing counseling. I am not sure how you get someone to realize they need to change. My W did it by being patient for years, and hoping I would in time. I suppose I do the same with her - for she isn't perfect.......yet.

If things are really bad, and their is an A, or abuse, then there needs to be some way to get their attention - plan B either does that, or ends things. When things were really bad, I would much have prefered to see you go to plan B, than be completly finished. Sometimes I still worry - and I believe you still have times when you are not sure yourself. Sometimes reading between the lines is difficult, but I fear for you at times. Trust is very important - lack of it is a deal breaker for you.

He also said that it seemed like I was a little afraid for things to actually improve, and that maybe I was afraid of investing the time for fear that it would all blow up again in my face sometime in the future. I said I thought that was very perceptive of him, and that it was true that I get these surges of anxiety from time to time, surges of mistrust.

He IS very perceptive, and I think this is accurate. Can we talk about this some more?

Remember the final days of Jesus Christ. He did not want the pain he knew was coming. It is not something he wanted to experiance, and he even asked that it be taken from him, but he knew it was necessarry, and he did what was asked of him. You are in a similar place. You know that the trust issues will have to be faced at some point. You know it will be difficult and painful - and you don't know the outcome - will your marriage be saved? Will it fail? I want you to look at it as he did. He did it for us, even though he knew that many of us would not accept what he did, and by not accepting it, not benefit from it. That could be looked upon as failure - but he didn't see it that way. He was willing to go ahead with the pain and suffering he endured though he knew the failure rate right up front. It was an assignment given him, and he accepted it and completed it because of who and what he is.

You may, or may not save your marriage - but like him, you face your own test's and must pass for you personally, as did he. We cannot shrink from the task given us because it may not help someone else, for it is as much our test as it is help for any others that benefit. I hope your test is one of patience, and that this works itself out over time. If it happens some other way, remember that I have faith in your ability to pass.

Now, on to the positive.


He said he thought that it seemed like there were a lot of positive things going on between us and I had to try to keep my mind remembering those whenever I felt anxious.
Yes, you should - but you won't always, and it is only in looking back that you will realize that. There will still be times when the doubts are so strong that you will think the worst. Prayer will bring you back, so continue to pray. Study keeps it from being as bad as it could be - please continue to study. LIR, please find a way to have faith - faith that God will find a way to make you happy no matter what happens with your fears. Have faith that he will guide you in what to do, and that the outcome will produce happiness for you long term. I know it is true. Trust that he will help you mannage the short term - so that you will be able to do what is needed.

So I feel better about all of that.
Your counseler seems to be able to see - I suggest you continue.

One good example of positive signs between H and I: H and I have been trying to find time to go see "The Passion" together, but H is VERY busy right now and we haven't been able to make it happen. I said to H that I wanted to see it, and could always go by myself, but that I would rather see it with him. H jumped up and said, very enthusiastically "I'm really honoured that you feel that way about it, because that's the way I feel, too - I want to see it with you, so let's wait until we can see it together, OK?" Those are his words. Gosh!


It is his need for admiration - you want HIS COMPANY and he needs to know that - and he wants YOUR COMPANY, and you need to know it too. This is something you can build upon. Look around, and see where else you can go with him, or what else you can do - look at community events, look at new oppertunities - new resturants, etc. I know you know this, but it helps us all to hear it again. Also, enjoy it for what it is - It's nice when someone loves us.

On the difficult note - my mum is getting a lot worse - she was very unwell yesterday and I am just about to call home after I get off the box here (waiting for the time difference) - and I am finding it hard to wait until Tuesday (6 days to go, incl today and Tues), when I and OS fly to the US.


You have made arrangements as best you can.
Trust that is enough. 2nd guessing wastes your energy, don't do it.

I am also finding it hard to think about the fact that I will only be able to stay a week there. The last two days I have felt like a zombie - just blank and staring, not even particularly sad. But I am trying to get on with doing useful things - getting everything ready for Easter, and digging over the ground in the vegetable patch, I cheated, I borrowed a troy built rototiller, and did mine in a saturday - sorry, just had to throw that in.) which is very much in need of attention. It's like, I have a lot of feelings which are just totally in limbo right now. I am neither here nor there with them, just waiting. It was hard trying to find an Easter card today for my mom - but I did find one.

Realize that some events are so important that they have this effect on us. Don't feel bad about it, don't think it should be different. Explain your feeings to H, ask for his help - but remember he is from Mars, so tell him exactly what you need. Ask him to hold you, ask him to help more with chores. Whatever it is that you need, ask him for it - so he will be able to help. It's not that he doesn't care, but he doesn't think like you think, and he really can't see your needs though he probably wants very badly to help you.

Well, I better go - I'd just like to say thank you once again, ss - for taking the time to help me....

I am afraid I am a selfish person, I think it does more good for me when I am here than It does for anyone else. I do hope it helps.....

This scripture keeps coming to mind: Luke 6:43-45. I know that you still struggle, ss - but hopefully this will help you, as it helps me, to see that the if I think of my marriage with H as a tree, it is still giving some good fruit, so perhaps it isn't as bad as I sometimes think it is....

Very apt -
I am not worried about our long term survival. I know our marriage will work. We struggle to over come our own weaknesses - because until we do, there will still be pain for the other. I hate it that I still cause her pain sometimes. Why in the world would I do that to the person I love most in all the world? It is because sometimes I don't see it until the wound has already been made. I can see things in time, but short term, I am often still so very blind.

Do I wish things were better?

YES !!!

Am I willing to do the work? We will see, won't we.

Thank you for the help, it is not one sided.

"By their fruits ye shall know them" - and that is how I know you, and why I express such confidence in you, and have done so since the beginning.

Once you asked me what my motivation was - I often think of verse 46. What will he think of me if I do not help where I am able to help? How could I face him after all he does for me?

I will probably update my W this weekend about my continued communications here on MB. Is there anything you would want me to pass on to her?

God be with you.

SS

<small>[ April 08, 2004, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by still seeking:
<strong> Often (for me at least) there are more things to say than time to say them. I would like to comment on much of what you talked about in earlier posts - but I can't take the time now.</strong>

Don't worry - the exact same thing happens to me! I am just grateful for what I get!

<strong>Thank goodness you were able to talk to someone that could really help you. I think you should go back and talk about your other issues until you get it all out. I do not think keeping all this inside is a help for you.</strong>

I agree. I think I still have to talk about "aunty" - that is all still there and it still bugs me (especially since she called today). So I do plan to go back. The priest recommended another priest he knows, who he said would be very good to counsel with. The priest he recommended is a colleague of the priest who is counselling my H. I'm considering pursuing that.

<strong>I think intent is the key - and also what it is that you are doing. This is one of the items I am glad he helped you with. It is not really appropiate for me (or any of us here) to make that judgement, but it is something a spiritial leader should counsel you on. I agree with him on it, for the same reasons.</strong>

This is basically what the priest said - that my intention was to help myself, and to save my marriage, not to hide things from my H. Someday this should come out in the open, but it should be when it is safe to do so.

<strong>If your H were to read your posts, or listen to your converstaions from any of your IC sessions, what could he be angry about? Mostly I think he might say you made him "look bad."</strong>

Absolutely. I think my H would be very angry about some of the things I have talked about - his R with "aunty", his EAs, his aggressive behaviour - sure, it puts him in a really bad light. He would be very upset that I have talked about him in a "public" forum, even though no-one here has any idea who he is, or could pick up on who he is from anything I've said. He would be upset that I am talking about him, period. And one of the reasons I don't tell him about MB is because of "buddy". "Buddy" is smart enough, and meddling enough, to come here and "spy" on me, and tell H what I say about him. Until our e-mail accounts are open to each other, and I can be sure that "buddy" cannot work against me, I will not expose my private thoughts to be used against me. To others who have not followed my thread for the past two years, that might sound slightly paranoid, but I can assure you that it is not. I know my H is still in some contact with "buddy" - "buddy" moved to Santa Rosa, and after the earthquake there, I asked him how "buddy" had fared. H said "buddy" was quite shook up. I'll bet! I thought. Maybe God's trying to shake you up a bit! I thought that was a bit ironic!

<strong> I don't think you could be accused of having an EA with any of your female MB friends, and I know you protect yourself by not having private communication with any male friends.</strong>

I do protect myself by not giving my private e-mail or cellphone no to men. I do talk to a few of my women friends about my marriage, but not that often anymore. I have two wonderful female MB friends, whom I value so much, because I can trust them to be totally honest with me. I don't think I am having an emotional affair with anyone, because that implies a dependence on, or a need for someone to fill your need for affection. My H is the one who I look to to fill my need for affection, and I can see that he is trying hard to give more, so I am happy with him. But I value the trusting friendship I have with others who are able to point out things to me that I have missed, or might misinterpret - I need the counsel of others - I think this is part and parcel of being human.

<strong>What you have is a H that loves you but lacks many skills needed to make the M what it ought to be.</strong>

That is so true. But I also lack some of the skills needed to make the marriage what it could be. I am still learning. That's why I still come here, and why I still want marriage counselling, and why I still need to talk to the priest again. I know that the health of the marriage does not rest entirely with me, but I just want to do the best I can.

<strong>I agree on this one also. How old was Moses before he was ready to free Israel? How old was Abraham before he was ready for the test he was given? Some things take longer than we think, and YOU HAVE come so far in such a short time.</strong>

I'm glad you think its a short time, too. Three years feels like a LONG time to me. But lately, I have been feeling more able to forgive and forget. On Good Friday, my H went to the church where he got entangled with OW1. Her father had asked him to write a piece for his choir for Good Friday, and I am assuming that she was in the choir. I wanted to go, but YS got sick with a tummy bug and was throwing up yesterday, so we had to stay home. Without my saying anything, H said he was really sorry about that, that he would have loved for me to come with him. I said how much I wished I could have come to hear his piece, that I would have loved to come. The thing is, I realized that I trusted him again, even if she was going to be there. I trusted him to do his job, and come away. The fact that he wanted me there said a lot to me - that he wasn't afraid for me to come face to face with her anymore. Well, I might get my chance tomorrow - we are invited to one of their family baptisms - wish me luck - I will comport myself with grace and dignity! On the subject of OW1, just in passing, H is doing a "big" concert next weekend, again, with OW1's father's choir participating. OW1's father told H that OW1 and her sister would sing a duet - it went out listed on the publicity. Three weeks ago, he calls and tells H that OW1 and her sister decided to go to Malta instead, so they'll have to do something else. H was furious! I just listened and sympathized. H said he had got another friend, who is singing in the Salzburg opera, to come and sing an aria in place of the duet - she just happens to be in town that day. I couldn't help but smile inside - I thought it was OK to say "At least now you know who your real friends are," and left it at that. Funny old world, isn't it?

<strong>I think it does give hope as long as he is continueing counseling. I am not sure how you get someone to realize they need to change. My W did it by being patient for years, and hoping I would in time. I suppose I do the same with her - for she isn't perfect.......yet.</strong>

Yep. Will he ever realize? This is a worry, but I guess I have to leave it a little longer....sigh....

<strong>He IS very perceptive, and I think this is accurate. Can we talk about this some more?</strong> Yep, we can talk about this some more - about the surges of anxiety, and not wanting to trust in it getting better.

<strong>you face your own test's and must pass for you personally, as did he. We cannot shrink from the task given us because it may not help someone else, for it is as much our test as it is help for any others that benefit.</strong>

Yep, that's the way I see it right now. And everyone around you benefits from your marriage being a stable one, not just you and your children.

<strong>LIR, please find a way to have faith - faith that God will find a way to make you happy no matter what happens with your fears. Have faith that he will guide you in what to do, and that the outcome will produce happiness for you long term. I know it is true. Trust that he will help you mannage the short term - so that you will be able to do what is needed.</strong>

That is really hard for me. I have faith that God is with me, but I don't have faith that the outcome in this life is happiness. I don't know if its just that I have been hurt too bad, and betrayed too much - not just by my H, but by my stepmother, and my father. I see my mother dying now, having suffered enormously. I am thinking that happiness is there if you make it. Life deals you a rough hand sometimes, totally undeserved. I don't know why some people have happy lives and some don't. I will say this, I don't want to live my life, clinging to my unhappiness because it's all I know. Life is a lot bigger than that. So I try to lift my eyes up from my own sorrows and look up at the sky, and when I do, and I see the sun, I smile.

<strong>I will probably update my W this weekend about my continued communications here on MB. Is there anything you would want me to pass on to her?</strong>

Well, if she ever wants someone to talk to, I am always here. I don't consider my posts on MB to be private - I post here so everyone can read them, that's the beauty of an open forum. I think I would say that if there is one person on this forum who has helped save my marriage, it is you, stillseeking - whatever it is you were doing wrong before, you have learned enough about yourself to try to change for the better - who could ask for more?

Today, I saw that kind of change in my H. I have been really worried about my mom these last three days - she has been throwing up and having diarrhea, several times a day - its time she was signed up for hospice care, but that hadn't happened yet (the hospice nurse is supposed to come out to the house today). I haven't broken down yet, but today I did. When YS went out of the room, I put my face in my hands and started to cry silently. H noticed, but didn't touch me, or move to comfort me - this really bugs me - I'm hurting as bad as anyone can be, and yet, he can't find it in himself to be human and sit down and put his arm around me, hug me, me, his own wife. So I just cried while he stood next to me. He said things like "maybe she's just having a bad day...you don't know she could be around for years...it could go slower than you think..." I could tell he just wanted to run away....but he stayed standing next to me, then he sat down, and put out one finger and touched my hand...I resisted the urge to get upset that he wasn't doing more for me, and I said "no, its just better to face it head on..she's dying..but you're right, we don't know how long it will take, but I suspect, not long now..." I said, "...the thing is, I'm not losing a mother that I have felt a lot of animosity for, I am losing the person who has been my best friend for all of my life, and I'm losing the person who loves me more than anyone else in the world..." H reached out and patted me, didn't say anything, but just waited until I got control of myself. After a few minutes, I wiped my face and got up, and he got up and we got busy with our jobs again. He went into the other room and I started washing the dishes. Five minutes later, he came back in again, came straight to me with his arms stretched out, and wrapped me up in a big hug. I put my head on his shoulder and said "I just need you to be affectionate to me. That's how you can help me most." "I know, I know," kept saying. He hugged me so much that YS came into the kitchen and squeezed in between us, and hugged me, too. We all hugged each other. The man H was two-three years ago, wouldn't have done that. The man H was ten years ago wouldn't have done that. The man that had 2 EAs is the man who could do that for me. I'm not saying the EAs did him good, but maybe they made him realize that he had problems, too, and that he needed to change. The point is he is trying to change. If he had not changed, he would not have come back into the room to hug me. So that's a hopeful sign.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, that's a long post.

I'd just like to wish you a Happy Easter. And God bless YOU!

LIR

I intended to do a post before you left, but won't get to it.

Have a good trip, have faith that HE will make things work as far as you and your mother go - because you have done all you could. ASK YOUR H FOR THE HELP YOU NEED, he's a guy, it's different for him. Don't be afraid of that. Don't be afraid to say: "we are different emotionally, and you may not understand this request, but I really need you to............"

Travel safe, say your prayers, remember God loves you.

SS

<small>[ April 13, 2004, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

That is really hard for me. I have faith that God is with me, but I don't have faith that the outcome in this life is happiness. I don't know if its just that I have been hurt too bad, and betrayed too much - not just by my H, but by my stepmother, and my father. I see my mother dying now, having suffered enormously. I am thinking that happiness is there if you make it. Life deals you a rough hand sometimes, totally undeserved. I don't know why some people have happy lives and some don't. I will say this, I don't want to live my life, clinging to my unhappiness because it's all I know. Life is a lot bigger than that. So I try to lift my eyes up from my own sorrows and look up at the sky, and when I do, and I see the sun, I smile.

I have done a lot of thinking about this......

There are many ways to look at happiness, but I would like to ask you how you see it. Can you define what happiness is for you? That is, tell me what elements, added together make for a happy life. I have some ideas, and will share them too. I have been thinking about your life - and you watching your mother all these years. I don't think it has to be for you the way it was for her. And, I don't mean the marriage part of things though that had a deep impact on your mother.

With all his troubles, would the Savior Jesus Christ have been a happy person? Does that affect your answer?

Talked to W again, and she doesn't really comment much about being invited to talk to folks here. Not that I push, but I wanted to know her feelings.

I realize it may be some time before you get back to the fourm. I may continue to develop my thoughts if I can make time.

We pray for your mother, and for you. People care. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

SS

Our prayers are with you and your family this morning.

SS

Thanks so much for your prayers, ss

Just wanted to check in and let you all know I checked my post and I appreciate the prayers. I got back from the States on Tues eve - its now Sunday, and getting over jet-lag, and the detachment I feel, feelings are starting to come back...today I feel really sad...and its hard to find words, since I also feel so tired.

My mom is in total denial about what's happening to her, so when I saw her, there were no "talks"...that was the hardest part..she has always been so open and honest and willing to talk for hours about everything...but this she refuses to talk about, and since she won't face it, there is nothing we can say to help her...all we can do is be there for her physically.

She is under hospice care, and has a great hospice nurse on her case, so in that respect, my mind is completely at ease. That's something to be thankful for.

I also thank God for my wonderful sister, who is taking good care of my Mom...we are grateful to have each other to talk to...

I have had a lot of realizations, good ones...which I will share soon....today, though, I'm finding it hard...I just keep crying for what I have lost...because I'm realizing that a lot of our relationship is already over...I used to talk to her at least twice a week, and always for an hour or more...we had so much to share, and so much to say to each other...our friendship was mutual...that part is already over...she doesn't have the strength to pick up the phone and call me anymore and when I call there, she is always asleep...when I can talk to her, its just for a few minutes, as she is too tired to be interested in anything anymore.

She is really just fading away - its like watching a piece of paper burning up in the fire...right now what we are seeing is that piece of paper hanging in mid-air, with only the edges glowing hot, before it crumbles into ash....

As I write this, I also know that she leaves me with so MUCH...I'm really clear on that...so much of what is good about me...was instilled in me and nurtured by my mother...she was a gardener of people...always encouraging the best, and coaxing the beautiful out of other people...I'll miss her....

Ps 126: "Those who sow in tears, will reap with songs of joy. He who goes out weeping, carrying seeds to sow, will return with songs of joy, carrying sheaves with him."

If you read my post, please everyone, say a little prayer for my mom - she's finding it very hard to die...she's angry and unhappy about it...and yes, she is suffering...she hasn't been able to eat solid food for two months, so she is slowly starving to death...we have done all we can...her stomach was scoped on Friday, and they found everything to be normal, so the nausea and inability to eat is all entirely down to the liver cancer - her blood count is low, so they said it looks like her body is no longer making blood...because of the bone cancer...that means that her blood no longer has enough red blood cells to pick up enough oxygen, so she is very groggy and tired...the hospice people have provided oxygen for her to use at home...because she can no longer eat, she is getting dehydrated...she has to have intravenous fluids now at least once a week...I don't think it will be long, now, but one never knows...she has asked for intravenous feeding to be given, if she loses consciousness, so that could prolong things...we just don't know....anyway...it's hard...she's now on morphine, which deals effectively with the pain...that's a blessing....

LIR

<small>[ April 25, 2004, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

I am wanting to do a post, I have it in my mind now even though I don't have time to do it right away.

You seem............strong. You are in self protection mode? Work until you drop, take no thought for yourself, just do what needs to be done?

I asked you about finding happiness, and you expressed that you wondered if you could find happiness in this life.

As much as you know, and with all your talent, and intelligence, I would expect you to believe you could be happy in this life. After saying this, I would almost expect you to come back and say something like "Maybe I ought to say that differently, I really meant........."

Perhaps I am putting too much importance on this, but It really has bothered me, and I worry, and I want to talk to you more about it.

LIR, can you tell me - how important are you to God? Can you put your feelings about that into words?

SS

Later edit
PS, please don't think I am indifferent about your mother. (I realize I did this post like a typical man, and I wanted to see if I can relate more to your feelings.) I care about her, but I believe she will shortly be much happier, and feel better than she has in quite some time. I am glad you are there to comfort her, and I am glad she is getting good care. I find I wish she could have worked through her feelings, and found someone to share her life with. I know (as do you) that much of what she went though has been transfered to you and your siblings to deal with, and heal from as best you can. That is what I worry about more than her passing.

Must go- see you later.

<small>[ April 29, 2004, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Hi ss - so nice to hear from you. You ask good questions, so I'll try to find some answers. I guess I just have so much going on inside, its really hard to think straight sometimes, but yes, I do feel "strong" - ever since I came back, I've had a lot of "good" days...also, I am able to talk a lot about Mom, about her state of mind, about her problems of denial, passivity, victimhood, etc - with my sister...you are right when you say my mom "passed on" a lot of stuff to do with my parents divorce onto my sister and I, and we are both trying to work through this right now...

Yes, I am also in "self-protection" mode - sometimes I just manage to push all the sad feelings away so that I don't have to feel them every day - that's what's happening, I guess, but when the sad feelings come, I roll with them, too - I don't feel overwhelmed (yet).

I asked you about finding happiness, and you expressed that you wondered if you could find happiness in this life.

As much as you know, and with all your talent, and intelligence, I would expect you to believe you could be happy in this life.

Yeah, I know, I wonder about this, too - I don't want to be a "negative" person, who dwells on all the sad things that have happened, or all the tough times - I guess what I'm saying is that I don't really trust - now that's my own personal problem - maybe I am still looking for happiness - I don't expect it to be "given" to me, I expect that it is me who has to find what makes me really happy...I guess I'm saying I am insecure...most probably because when I was a kid, the rug was whipped so forcefully out from under our home life, and because I was used by people I trusted...I don't know...still pondering this one...but feeling more hopeful for the future lately....

LIR, can you tell me - how important are you to God? Can you put your feelings about that into words?

Well, I believe that God really loves me, even when, if bad things do happen to me. What Jesus said about not a sparrow falling, but the eye of God does not see. I feel His love sometimes - I believe he has been with me through all the bad times., even if I didn't feel it.

PS, please don't think I am indifferent about your mother. (I realize I did this post like a typical man, and I wanted to see if I can relate more to your feelings.) I care about her, but I believe she will shortly be much happier, and feel better than she has in quite some time. I am glad you are there to comfort her, and I am glad she is getting good care. I find I wish she could have worked through her feelings, and found someone to share her life with. I know (as do you) that much of what she went though has been transfered to you and your siblings to deal with, and heal from as best you can. That is what I worry about more than her passing. Don't worry, I didn't think that - far from it. I believe as you do, that shortly, she will be much happier. I also believe she has many loved ones waiting for her, especially my brother and her sister. Her denial really bothered me, but now I accept it. My task is to just be there for her as best I can.

Without trying to change the subject, or seem self-centered, what I would say is that there are two important things going on with me, I think -

First, like I have said before, my mother's death brings up a lot of the old family "issues" to do with the triangle of her, my Dad, and his OW - basically, my sister and I have emotionally supported my mother through the loss of her marriage, and basically she never let go and moved on. Both of us have the feeling that once she dies, WE can finally let go and move on...this means changes for both of us..for me, it means I can let go of restraining myself for fear of making her unhappy, I can also let go of restraining myself out of a sense of privacy - in some ways, we were too close - because she lost her marriage, she focused on us, her children, and I guess I have always had this wierd resistance to achieving success, because I didn't want her judgement on me - good, or bad. This is very hard to explain - I don't know if anyone else can identify with this in relation to a parent...it was like, don't look at me so hard! LOL

The other thing that it would be good for me to confess is that - hold on, its coming, and yes, I do expect the 2x4's - I have found myself being tempted. I noticed that when I was struggling with H's EA's, that my friends' husbands seemed to pick up on this, and in very subtle ways, offered support - at least 3 of them stepped forward to "talk", and I got the wierd feeling that if I were unscrupulous, it wouldn't take much to "hook" any one of them into something closer. Needless to say, I didn't allow that to happen, and all are still happily married, and we are all still friends.

But lately, I have found myself confronting two "possibilities". The first time I went back to CA, my Dad and stepM took me and YS to meet up with an old friend of my Dad's - he is an artist with an international reputation - lots to admire there - he is now D and unattached with one grown son. I first "fell in love" with this man when I was 8 years old. LOL! And all the years of my life, I have watched him in and out of his R with women, have always been attracted to him and always admired him, but thought he wasn't interested in me because of the age difference (about 25 years) - but before I married H, in the interim period after I broke off my first engagement to H, he asked me out, and we went out on a date. He told me then that he had always admired me, but didn't want to make any moves on me out of respect for my dad. At the time we went out, though, I was 28 and old enough to decide for myself. Sadly (?) I was still in love with H, and we married a year later. Was that a mistake? This guy is one of my Dad's oldest friends, someone I have known since childhood, someone who is kind, intelligent, handsome, strong...I could tell there was still something there...even if he is a lot older now...after I left to come home, my Dad attended his birthday party, and later told me that X had told him he had "always been in love with me". It makes me sad...I wonder what it is I have given up to be with H. I haven't told H any of this...I did tell him that we had gone to see him, and I saw a look of annoyance on H's face - H "knows" X has always been fond of me. When I went to the US last time, Dad asked if I wanted to see X again, and I said no, that I didn't have time to spare away from Mom....

OK....I've got that off my chest...

Second...there's a young artist (only 24) where I work (at a secondary school) - he's a teacher on the staff - how does one tell that someone "likes" you? - well, he seeks me out to be friendly to...how do I know...I just know...but jeez, louise, I'm 46! What could he possible see in me? Plus I'm married! Well, I told my sister about both these, and she said...you know, after all you've been through, its nice to feel like you are still admired, and still attractive, even to a younger man...so just be friendly and enjoy the attention, but don't get TOO friendly....its not like I'd ever even go out for a cup of coffee with either of these guys...its just *feelings*...

So on Tuesday - I come home from work, and H and I find ourselves home alone together for lunch...he flirts...I flirt, but it doesn't feel right....the lack of sex in our R has REALLY been bothering me...H is a performing artist and he has had a LOT of work on week after week...basically it feels like he can't think about anything except his next performance...he gets in bed at night just to SLEEP and that's it. There has been nothing happening for many weeks....and this is hard for me...with all the emotional stuff about my mom, I need comforting, I need physical closeness, I need to feel loved....I am tired of putting my own needs aside in order to support him through his next performance....so it just didn't seem like it was going to happen then either....

So finally I said..."Doesn't it ever cross your mind that I, too, could be tempted sometimes...?" He laughed and said "No...not really." "No, I didn't think you did," I said...then he hurriedly said "Yes, I mean...you're like everyone else, I mean, everyone is tempted sometime, and you are everyone...so I guess you are bound to be sometime..." "Umm-hmmm.." I said...he says "Why, are you feeling guilty?" "No," I said, "I haven't done anything I have to feel guilty about." "Well, that's all right then." But that woke him up, because then stuff happened...finally. Afterwards, I told him that I was lonely and that I needed to have SF in order to feel close to him. "Thank heaven's for that." was his response.

So I have owned up here to what's going on with me - yes, part of me is angry at H - I've spent 20 years being taken for granted and I'm tired of it...I've been all round the houses with him, and you know just what he has dished out to me whenever I've tried to work on our marriage... I guess its natural that I would find it nice to be admired by other people still - but it also makes me sad. I'm not going to ruin my kids lives by having an affair, but I also feel stuck, with my life passing me by as I head for 50. Shoot, I think I'm heading into my own MLC!

I don't think MC is the answer, either, but I would go if H wanted to. I just don't want to suggest it, as it would be "here we go again with her problems" etc, and put more strain on our marriage, which has just barely survived the last 3 years.

H seems more attentive the last two days - took me to lunch, calls me on the phone at work and at home when he is away. I can see that he is trying.

Well - I guess that's enough for now - probably TOO much! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Again, thank you for all your prayers - I think I need them! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

LIR