I really need help. About 6 wks. ago my H agreed to NC and wrote the letter, and Plan B was over, he was coming back home.

Well, imagine my surprise when I arrived home from work last night and he had moved out again! He left me a note saying he had been upset and depressed increasingly over the last few days and "realized he was not happy here." So he moved back to the motel.

We've talked and emailed a lot since then, and he denies, denies, denies that it is about the OW. I have told him I find that hard to believe. He says he is responsible for my frustration and unhappiness (because when we do our weekly MB review I share with him - Radical Honesty - the areas where my ENs aren't being met). He says he feels that he can do nothing right.

So his solution is to move out and try to do some "soul searching." I begged him to come home, begged and begged and begged. Told him I could not go through another separation, asked him just to come back for the weekend (I want PROOF he is not seeing her), that he could leave again Sunday night. I told him I believe that he could not hope to have us heal when we are separated. Yet, he refused to come home. I waited all day to hear about his decision and he never let me know, he was just gone when I got here tonight. Why does he continue to deny me my needs?

His issues: he is totally incapable of being honest with me. Has never learned how to be honest in his life. Claims to not know his feelings, cannot identify how he feels about things, particularly emotional things. That I make him feel "pressured and stressed."

He believes he has been giving 100% to the MB program, but I say, if he has, then why are some (many) of my ENs still unmet?

What can I possibly do to make a "non-talker" divulge things about himself other than single-word responses? What can I do to help him learn to express his needs (especially since when I ask what he needs he says "I don't know.") and his feelings?

I was totally shocked when he moved out, especially without discussing it with me. We kissed goodby in the a.m., exchanged a few emails during the day, and I arrived home to the note saying he was gone.

Now I think he is running away from facing our problems. I told him this, and told him how shocked I was. I thought we were doing OK, not fine, but OK. I knew we needed to work more on our MB program, but planned to talk with Jennifer next week during our session (it's been 3 weeks). I am still numb, but in pain at the same time.

Please, guys, I really need some feedback! Thanks.

<small>[ August 25, 2003, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: ISGirl ]</small>

ISgirl-

Sorry to hear about the downturn in things, recovery as they say is three steps forward and two steps back on a good day.

My first thought, if H is doing the whole MB thing, then why did he move out without asking how you FEEL about it? Where is the POJA here? You say he dosen't tell you what his EN's are, have you both done the questionaire? Even if H won't you could still fill one out for him (I mean from his perspective). I did that for my W and I wasn't too far off from her answers.

You said "I begged and I begged." Ask yourself, would you want to come home to a whining begging H? I wouldn't be happy coming home if my W was like that, I don't think you H would either. If it were me, I would say stop the begging and stop demanding proof that he is done with OW. The conditions for recovery need to be set once both parties want to recover.

Others help me out here, I would say that it is time for a short plan A, only a couple of weeks and then move promptly to plan B. In the meantime, re-read SAA as it talks about what to do when the WS goes back to the OP.

Good luck,

"He says he feels that he can do nothing right."

*red flag .... this doesn't "smell" right

"soul searching"

*sounds like running away to me

"asked him to just come back for the weekend .... that he could leave again Sunday night"

*a VERY reasonable thing for you to request .... he can begin his "soul search" just as well on Monday as on Friday

* I think there is OW covert activity, I'm sorry to say

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ....

<small>[ August 25, 2003, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Unfortunately, you are right, it seems.

Tried his cell phone. Rings in the "out of area" type ring. The OW lives "out of area."

How, I beg you to tell me, can we (or can we???) go back to Plan B? I am so emotionally exhausted and drained. Don't know if I can continue to wait for him to get where he needs to get.

<small>[ July 18, 2003, 11:22 PM: Message edited by: ISGirl ]</small>

U control plan B. U decide if you need to NOT have contact with him right now. U decide how long you will allow it.

His excuses smell like the A is on the loose.

IMHO???? Run as far away from his situation as you can. Otherwise you will fall into the pit of the A and be the point of blame.

He is talking fog babble like all the other fogheaded WS.

False recoveries are common. Don't beg. Not very becoming. You are better than that.

You will find your anger soon and need to keep that in check. For now, breathe and pray for a clear mind and a calm heart.

Next time he wants to come back, raise the bar a bit. Right now determine how you will do that. That should keep you busy for a while.

There's an OW on the loose in your area. Look out!

L.

IS Girl:

I am so so sorry that this happened to you. The exact same thing happened to me. Steve Harley. told me that unless that there is absolute proof that he has not had contact with the OW, assume that he has had contact. Harley says the A addiction is so strong that it's hard to maintain NC without extraordinary precautions. That's one way I failed during our false reconcilation. She was able to E-mail him, brought cards to his office and used all kinds of other sneaky, indirect ways to remind him of her presence.

Sounds like you were in a good PLAN A during your false reconciliation so now you can do PLAN B again ,with a new letter,if that's what you choose. He continues to be on the fence and wants to cake-eat. Right now, unfortunately, they are probably caught up in the euphoria of their reunion. IS, I know how that hurts to think of it. However, it will soon wear off.

Like the folks here told me, time for a PLAN B where you go VERY DARK as MORTARMAN says.

Again, I'm sorry. I truly know how devastating it is to be letdown by him. It is best not to beg though. Although you are hurting inside, it's best to be tough.

I wish I had something better to say. Keep in touch over the weekend.

<small>[ July 18, 2003, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

I can't thank you all enough. I am hurting so much tonight. I know he is with her...the cell phone tells that. He has lied to me again.

I don't know if I can Plan B again. Really don't know. I am so emotionally exhausted, so drained. I talked to two very close friends tonight, both of whom (I know, I know) cannot imagine me forgiving him.

OK, so I need your support and advice: do I give it up or do I hold on, and as advised earlier, write a new Plan B letter. I thought the first Plan B letter "took." At what point do I know I can trust him? We have already shared everything in terms of full disclosure: email, bills, bank info, et., etc.

Thanks so much for all your input! You are such a great group!

<small>[ July 26, 2003, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: ISGirl ]</small>

When they come boack after they agree to the Plan B letter, you should not expect then to meet any of your needs for a while. They will have withdrawal to go through for about 2 months. SO in this time it is pretty much Plan A.

Ending Plan B is not simply agreeing to no contact and a letter.
When no contact is agreed to, then you discuss and agree, using POJA, on terms to return.
All this is done BEFORE he moves back in.
This is where people make the mistake. The affair ends, the ws moves back in and the bs thinks they can then work out what needs to be done to "work" on the marriage. Another person in the forums let their spouse move back with NOTHING being agreed to BEFORE the move back in. Just "hoping" things will get better is a recipe for disaster.

About 6 wks. ago my H agreed to NC and wrote the letter, and Plan B was over, he was coming back home
What did you guys agree to as far as counseling when he returned? Any thoughts about calling Marriage Builders? (1-888-69-1639)

What other things did you agree on before he returned?

Hello Everyone,

I have read all your responses, and thank you, thank you for your input.

Interesting. I really do think we were doing everything according to MB. We have been in MB counseling with Jennifer Harley since early this year. My H and I had a meeting and discussed the terms for ending Plan B before I agreed to let H move back here. We continued to counsel with Jennifer. Yes, we did the questionnaires...Love Busters, Emotional Needs, everything. We even prepared "grids" to help keep each of us on track. We held weekly reviews to evaluate our progress on meeting those needs.

We set up the extraordinary precautions. The letter was mailed, he started logging in his mileage each day, all cell phone records are there for me to review, all bank accounts, everything. I have access to his email.

Begging? Yes, I was desperate. I really didn't think I could survive another separation, and truthfully, I believed that the moving out to the motel deal, the "soul-searching" was nothing more than a ploy to obtain the freedom to go where he wanted and see who he wanted. I know now that is true. But I agree, the begging was not attractive and I am not proud of it. I am tougher than that, but I let my emotions rule.

Yesterday, after talking and emailing back and forth most of the day, he said he would make a decision about staying here for the weekend sometime yesterday afternoon. Well, I waited and waited. Imagine my surprise (not really, I guess) when, after hearing nothing from him, I arrived home to find him gone. No note, no explanation of his decision, no email, nothing.

He has hurt me so much. Discovering the affair was bad enough; hearing him say it was over, only to discover he was still seeing her (time after time) was bad; Plan B was a killer, but now for him to go back to her is destroying me. Love Bank? Ha! I think the asset/liability ratio is WAY out of whack!

Little progress was made in building up the deposits in my love bank since he came back. He says he gave 100% to the MB program. If so, why were my needs not met? Why no POJA on his moving out? Yesterday when I quoted some MB philosophy, he even said something like "well, maybe they are wrong."

So now what? Another Plan B? Seems so futile, at this point. I know MB works, I know it saves marriages, but I feel frustrated and like all this is just failing. And if I do Plan B, what more can I possibly say to strengthen the communication? What I did last time was right out of SAA for the most part.

Is this situation as hopeless as it appears?

<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Well .... consider the alternatives.

You try to coax him back .... it probably won't work. You'll look and feel desperate.

Even if you immediately file for separation, or divorce, he'll be off doing whatever he's doing. You'll still be in pain.

If you're in plan B, can't you protect yourself better both emotionally and financially .... if you are not trying to reach out to him?

If this eventually leads to a divorce, you'll be better prepared after Plan B, I think.

If I were you, I'd ask myself, "What can I do to protect my heart from further bludgeoning?" .... and use that criteria to decide.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

IS :

I don't think it's hopeless. I'e read on here that this happens a lot. Someone here who is in recovery said that they had several of these false reconciliations. I'm not one of the MB experts but I read somewhere that PLAN B is recommended for 18 months before ending the R. Cerri talks about this in one of topics.

It sounds like to me that you made the mistake I did. He probably came back home too soon. Even though you had that discussion about the conditions, he remained in the fog. Also, he could not make it through the withdrawal. If there is a next time for me I will handle his withdrawal phase a lot more carefully and differently. Meeting each others needs is not possible until the WS gets through the withdrawal. I understand more about the withdrawal process now because I have gone through it myself since starting PLAN B.

I would recommend that you do another very strict PLAN B. Focus on what you need to do to make yourself better and stronger. Plan on making your PLAN B lengthy and make your conditions specific and strict. Your WS, like mine and others, is in an addiction. It is an addiction that is extremely hard to break. It is so scripted. Like your WS, mine read the chapter on WITHDRAWAL in SAA. It described him to a Tee, yet, he said, that does not apply to me. Steve Harley told me "you can't be a teacher when you don't have a student". He says addicted spouses are not in the mindset to change or to learn. Go Forward with focusing on yourself. It's hard but it's worth it. It's been good for me. You do not have to make a decision now on whether to end your relationship. Doing PLAN B is good for YOU regardless of the outcome of the relationship. The focus becomes YOU and not HIM because you learn that you have absolutely no control over his choices and what he does. It's like beating your head up against the wall in dealing with him while he's decided to be with her. I've almost decided that it will be his loss not to be with me. However, I'm a believer that DIVORCE is not what GOD wants and that I will give in to EVIL forces if I give up hope and turn my back on my marriage. In my PLAN B letter, I told my WH that the outcome of my marriage is in his hands and God's hands, I have already done everything I know to do to save it.

I have found the books CODEPENDENT NO MORE and THE LANGUAGE OF LETTING GO by Melody Beattie to be very helpful!!

Take Care. Remember, I really understand what you are going through. Keep in touch.

Hi ISG,

He isn't ready to make a decision for himself or is leaning the A way. The best couseling in the world may not produce results now but later.

As a stated in another thread, the reaction time of the Ws is quite slow. In some cases the WS even tries to push the BS to cause them pain. Crazy words like: 'I did that so you would D me' along with other fog babble are often thrown at the BS.

For you right now? It is painful. Work on how you can lessen that pain without him. Find the ways you personally can feel better. Walks, yelling at the beach (hopefully not near a bunch of people or maybe that might not be bad), pamper yourself at a women's spa, go shopping, rearrange or clean out a portion of your home, keep a journal, etc. Whatever helps you and is still legal <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> will be good for you.

Leave him be for now. Whatever you say and do to and for him right now will not be appreciated. So don't 'spit in the wind'.

JMHO,
L.

Hubby and I rode that roller coaster. It twasn't fun at all, but the end result is all we focus on these days. The past just seems like a nightmare (a nightmare that lasted 2 years), and we're back to the dream we've been working on building together for going on 12 years now.

It's not as hopeless as you think. Any of us who have been there would have told you at many MANY points along the way, that there was just NO WAY things would ever work out. The relationship was doomed, and even if it were repaired it just would never be the same. Well, that much is true...it's changed...but in GOOD WAYS!

I flip flopped many times. Told hubby 'lets try again'. Then fell back in to my depression (it's called WITHDRAWL) and wound up running again. So there IS hope. But for now, you should focus on anything that will help you to feel good about yourself and your life without him for the time being.

I hope you try a deep dark Plan B again. No contact, no reassurance that you care anymore. Let him wonder where YOU are at. Let him wonder why he can't get ahold of YOU. Let him wonder if you're moving on and maybe found someone else yourself (that one sparks a fire under the little green monster of jealousy and tends to bring forth emotions that WS's deny, deny and deny are there).

I know your friends are advising you otherwise. But they're YOUR FRIENDS. They hate to see you hurt. And they aren't several years down the road your on. We are. We've been there. We know the hurt is managable and that if you keep down this road you just might get the results you really want. My friends ASSURED me that my hubby could never change and that I would probly never be happy in this marriage. They assured me they agreed with me 100%. Course, in time they no longer agreed with me, but also had no suggestions as to other wise. Yup, divorce was the only answer. Well, I love my friends...but they were wrong. They just didn't know. And I forgive them for that...and thankfully they forgive me for expecting them to know.

So hang in there. Do something extrodinarily nice for yourself and don't even have the slightest tinge of guilt for doing it. You WON'T regret it!! Take care!

isgirl,

I responded to you over in JFO on cerri's thread. Looks like you've gotten some great responses over here from the veterans. You are in my prayers.

I hope you try a deep dark Plan B again. No contact, no reassurance that you care anymore. Let him wonder where YOU are at. Let him wonder why he can't get ahold of YOU. Let him wonder if you're moving on and maybe found someone else yourself (that one sparks a fire under the little green monster of jealousy and tends to bring forth emotions that WS's deny, deny and deny are there).
When in Plan B, then there is no letting him wonder why he can't contact you or letting him wonder if you have found someone else.
He KNOWS why you have no contact. He KNOWS you are committed to staying in the marriage cause you told him all this in the letter.

To back up Chris' statement and clarify my own..... the wondering part is for him to wonder what you are up to.

See the A feeds off of info. Good, bad or made up info doesn't matter.

Often the BS is compelled to tell the Ws everything to prove radical honesty but when the A is running, that often backfires since the honesty is only running 1 way.... downhill.

That is why a good NC is important. Why? Well when a WS give NC to the OP sometimes, what happens? As sick as it sounds, the pattern of when a BS give NC to the WS often is the similar.

L.

<small>[ July 19, 2003, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

Chris, as clear as it may be in a letter, the WS, in their foggy brain, will still formulate their own twisted ideas as to why you're avoiding them and what you're up to. You can speak and write as clearly as you want into the Plan B letter...WS's are in fog. Perception twists everything they have to process. Atleast that's how it was for me. The obvious and straightforward, was still confusing to me. I'm fairly sure it's like that for most WS's.

e WS, in their foggy brain, will still formulate their own twisted ideas as to why you're avoiding them and what you're up to.
Which is why you write a very clear letter AND ALSO you do not act in ways which are not consistent with the letter.

Thanks for all the advice and information.

Can someone please explain the DEEP DARK PLAN B? My Plan B, as stated earlier, was pretty much verbatim from SAA. We had literally no contact. How can I make it any stronger than it was last time? What is stricter than no contact?

I will tell you something that I am not convinced is helping. My H works out of the home, has a home office. Now, during separation, we literally do not see each other, but even though he has moved out, he still has all the comforts of home during hiw workday (although last time he did not consume a single crumb or drop of food/beverage from the home), including seeing our dog during the day. Our schedules are such that I (having a long commute) leave well before he arrives and he's long gone by the time I get home evenings. What do you think? Does this matter at all?

We have an appointment with Jennifer this Wednesday night. Should I wait until after that to initiate Plan B? The DEEP DARK PLAN B? What gets included in the 2nd draft of the Plan B letter that wasn't in the first?

I am sure he will be seeing all this posting, because he was a MB lurker and occasional poster during the last Plan B. Makes me a bit uncomfortable, but what else can I do? I need the comfort, counsel and kinship of this board.

Mimi, I have been following your story for a long time. Watching you develop your strength has been very motivating, particularly to me right now. In fact, I posted to you a few times. Unfortunately, the last time I wrote, I believed we were in recovery. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> You are an inspiration to me. If you can arrive at the place you are now, so can I.

Please keep the information, advice and contact coming. As we all know, this is a true lifeline for us during these tragic times.

Gotta run for now. A serious thunderstorm is brewing and I don't want to fry my computer. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

IS, I think you are onto something in regards to the home office. In the WS' mind, he's still at home probably even though he's just working there. When my WS visited during our first separation and I was not in PLAN B, he went around touching objects in the house, walked into his closet, etc. like he was trying to get a dose of reality each time. That daily dose of reality might be enabling your WS' A, allowing him to cope within his crazy world. Just a thought...